Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution



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Topic: Science > Prophecies-Of-Nostradamus
User: "John Lemke"
Date: 26 Jul 2006 07:06:50 PM
Object: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution
Dobbs: Why is the president ignoring our laws?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/index.html
Bush, feds flout the Constitution by finding ways around laws
By Lou Dobbs
CNN
Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Posted: 6:58 p.m. EDT (22:58 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- With upraised right hand and left hand on the Bible, each
of our presidents, from George Washington to George W. Bush, has solemnly
sworn to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution of the United
States.
The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that oath by
issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard selected provisions of
the laws that Congress passed and he signed.
A bipartisan, 11-member panel of the ABA found that President Bush is not
only disregarding laws but using such signing statements far more than any
president in history. In fact, Bush has used signing statements to raise
constitutional objections to more than 800 provisions in more than 100 laws.
All of the presidents combined before 2001 had issued only 600.
The ABA asserts that signing statements cannot be a substitute for a
presidential veto and that such an assertion of presidential power amounts
to a line-item veto, which the Supreme Court already has ruled
unconstitutional.
The matter will likely be resolved in court. But it stands as a metaphor for
a 21st century America that is no longer secure in the claim to be a nation
of laws.
The federal government is failing to enforce our laws on a wide range of
issues. Trade agreements such as the North American Free Trade Agreement,
which is clearly a treaty, have not been approved by two-thirds of the
Senate as required by the Treaty Clause of the Constitution.
That clause states the president "shall have Power, by and with the Advice
and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the
Senators present concur." And why has the Senate not been required to
approve these treaties? Because the last three presidents have claimed these
trade deals are executive agreements rather than treaties.
But if these so-called free-trade agreements are not to be considered
treaties, then they are clearly within the power of Congress, not the
president. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power
to "regulate Commerce with foreign nations." But Congress has given up its
exclusive constitutional authority to negotiate and regulate trade
agreements by ceding "fast-track authority" to the executive branch.
The president's fast-track authority is set to expire next year, more than
30 years after its passage. It is no coincidence that the United States has
now posted a trade deficit for 30 consecutive years.
The federal government is also undermining the rule of law in this country
when it comes to enforcement of our immigration laws and securing borders
and ports.
The Bush administration in its first four years was responsible for 318
fines against employers who hired illegal workers, an average of fewer than
80 each year. That's down from 5,587 fines against illegal employers during
the eight years of the Clinton administration, according to the
Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, an average of 698 each year. And
the problem is getting worse; in 2004 only three employers received fines
for illegal hiring.
Work site arrests have fallen even more drastically under this president.
From 1995 to 1998, there were between 10,000 and 18,000 work site arrests of
illegal aliens each year. But during the Bush administration, work site
arrests fell to just 159 in 2004.
Apprehensions along the border averaged 1.05 million from fiscal year 2001
to 2004, according to the independent, progressive group Third Way, down
from 1.52 million from 1996 to 2000. Border apprehensions have plummeted
more than 30 percent, despite a doubling in the number of Border Patrol
agents over the past decade and the rising number of attempted crossings.
It is not only the federal government that had diminished our claim to be a
nation of laws. More than 70 U.S. cities, including New York, Los Angeles,
California, and Chicago, Illinois, have set up "sanctuary" policies that
offer safe haven from the law to illegal aliens and their families.
"It most certainly is a blatant violation of the law," says Rep. Tom
Tancredo, a Republican from Colorado. "There is a provision of the 1996
Immigration Act that is very clear: It says states and localities can't do
this. The unfortunate thing is there are no teeth in it."
As Abraham Lincoln said, if bad laws exist they should "be repealed as soon
as possible, still, while they continue in force, for the sake of example
they should be religiously observed." President Lincoln devoutly believed
that rule of law assured that ours would continue to be a government of the
people, by the people and for the people.
And that should be the first demand of every American today.
.

User: "Perseid"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 26 Jul 2006 08:36:41 PM
"John Lemke" <jflemke@locallink.net> Spat the Words

Dobbs: Why is the president ignoring our laws?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/index.html
Bush, feds flout the Constitution by finding ways around laws
By Lou Dobbs
CNN


Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Posted: 6:58 p.m. EDT (22:58 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- With upraised right hand and left hand on the Bible,
each of our presidents, from George Washington to George W. Bush, has
solemnly sworn to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution of the
United States.

The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that
oath by issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard selected
provisions of the laws that Congress passed and he signed.

Did you hear that the case against ATT for illegally handing over
phone records to the government will be allowed to proceed ?
If you look at history and how dictators rise to power, Hitler is
a good example, you'll find that the first thing they do is take
over the courts and fill them with party members. Currently the
courts are rebuffing Bush's manuevers to skirt and bypass the law.
People and organizations are paying the price first, for their
complicity with the Bush way of thinking.


A bipartisan, 11-member panel of the ABA found that President Bush is
not only disregarding laws but using such signing statements far more
than any president in history. In fact, Bush has used signing statements
to raise constitutional objections to more than 800 provisions in more
than 100 laws. All of the presidents combined before 2001 had issued
only 600.

The ABA asserts that signing statements cannot be a substitute for a
presidential veto and that such an assertion of presidential power
amounts to a line-item veto, which the Supreme Court already has ruled
unconstitutional.

The matter will likely be resolved in court. But it stands as a metaphor
for a 21st century America that is no longer secure in the claim to be a
nation of laws.

The federal government is failing to enforce our laws on a wide range of
issues. Trade agreements such as the North American Free Trade
Agreement, which is clearly a treaty, have not been approved by
two-thirds of the Senate as required by the Treaty Clause of the
Constitution.

That clause states the president "shall have Power, by and with the
Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds
of the Senators present concur." And why has the Senate not been
required to approve these treaties? Because the last three presidents
have claimed these trade deals are executive agreements rather than
treaties.

But if these so-called free-trade agreements are not to be considered
treaties, then they are clearly within the power of Congress, not the
president. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the
power to "regulate Commerce with foreign nations." But Congress has
given up its exclusive constitutional authority to negotiate and
regulate trade agreements by ceding "fast-track authority" to the
executive branch.

The president's fast-track authority is set to expire next year, more
than 30 years after its passage. It is no coincidence that the United
States has now posted a trade deficit for 30 consecutive years.

The federal government is also undermining the rule of law in this
country when it comes to enforcement of our immigration laws and
securing borders and ports.

The Bush administration in its first four years was responsible for 318
fines against employers who hired illegal workers, an average of fewer
than 80 each year. That's down from 5,587 fines against illegal
employers during the eight years of the Clinton administration,
according to the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, an average of
698 each year. And the problem is getting worse; in 2004 only three
employers received fines for illegal hiring.

Work site arrests have fallen even more drastically under this
president. From 1995 to 1998, there were between 10,000 and 18,000 work
site arrests of illegal aliens each year. But during the Bush
administration, work site arrests fell to just 159 in 2004.

Apprehensions along the border averaged 1.05 million from fiscal year
2001 to 2004, according to the independent, progressive group Third Way,
down from 1.52 million from 1996 to 2000. Border apprehensions have
plummeted more than 30 percent, despite a doubling in the number of
Border Patrol agents over the past decade and the rising number of
attempted crossings.

It is not only the federal government that had diminished our claim to
be a nation of laws. More than 70 U.S. cities, including New York, Los
Angeles, California, and Chicago, Illinois, have set up "sanctuary"
policies that offer safe haven from the law to illegal aliens and their
families.

"It most certainly is a blatant violation of the law," says Rep. Tom
Tancredo, a Republican from Colorado. "There is a provision of the 1996
Immigration Act that is very clear: It says states and localities can't
do this. The unfortunate thing is there are no teeth in it."

As Abraham Lincoln said, if bad laws exist they should "be repealed as
soon as possible, still, while they continue in force, for the sake of
example they should be religiously observed." President Lincoln devoutly
believed that rule of law assured that ours would continue to be a
government of the people, by the people and for the people.

And that should be the first demand of every American today.




.
User: "Woodswun"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 04:20:47 PM
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:36:41 -0500, Perseid wrote:

"John Lemke" <jflemke@locallink.net> Spat the Words

Dobbs: Why is the president ignoring our laws?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/index.html
Bush, feds flout the Constitution by finding ways around laws
By Lou Dobbs
CNN


Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Posted: 6:58 p.m. EDT (22:58 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- With upraised right hand and left hand on the Bible,
each of our presidents, from George Washington to George W. Bush, has
solemnly sworn to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution of the
United States.

The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that
oath by issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard selected
provisions of the laws that Congress passed and he signed.


Did you hear that the case against ATT for illegally handing over
phone records to the government will be allowed to proceed ?
If you look at history and how dictators rise to power, Hitler is
a good example, you'll find that the first thing they do is take
over the courts and fill them with party members. Currently the
courts are rebuffing Bush's manuevers to skirt and bypass the law.
People and organizations are paying the price first, for their
complicity with the Bush way of thinking.

I hope ATT gets nailed bigtime. They deserve it.
Woods
.
User: "Steven Douglas"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 04:45:03 PM
Woodswun wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:36:41 -0500, Perseid wrote:

"John Lemke" <jflemke@locallink.net> Spat the Words

Dobbs: Why is the president ignoring our laws?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/index.html
Bush, feds flout the Constitution by finding ways around laws
By Lou Dobbs
CNN


Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Posted: 6:58 p.m. EDT (22:58 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- With upraised right hand and left hand on the Bible,
each of our presidents, from George Washington to George W. Bush, has
solemnly sworn to "preserve, protect and defend" the Constitution of the
United States.

The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that
oath by issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard selected
provisions of the laws that Congress passed and he signed.


Did you hear that the case against ATT for illegally handing over
phone records to the government will be allowed to proceed ?
If you look at history and how dictators rise to power, Hitler is
a good example, you'll find that the first thing they do is take
over the courts and fill them with party members. Currently the
courts are rebuffing Bush's manuevers to skirt and bypass the law.
People and organizations are paying the price first, for their
complicity with the Bush way of thinking.


I hope ATT gets nailed bigtime. They deserve it.

AT&T denies wrongdoing. The lawsuit has been dismissed. Just like
Clinton and Paula Jones. Clinton denied wrongdoing. The lawsuit was
dismissed.
.
User: "Perseid"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 06:51:35 PM
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> Spat the Words


Woodswun wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:36:41 -0500, Perseid wrote:

"John Lemke" <jflemke@locallink.net> Spat the Words

Dobbs: Why is the president ignoring our laws?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/index.html
Bush, feds flout the Constitution by finding ways around laws
By Lou Dobbs
CNN


Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Posted: 6:58 p.m. EDT (22:58 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- With upraised right hand and left hand on the
Bible, each of our presidents, from George Washington to George W.
Bush, has solemnly sworn to "preserve, protect and defend" the
Constitution of the United States.

The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that
oath by issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard
selected provisions of the laws that Congress passed and he signed.


Did you hear that the case against ATT for illegally handing over
phone records to the government will be allowed to proceed ?
If you look at history and how dictators rise to power, Hitler is
a good example, you'll find that the first thing they do is take
over the courts and fill them with party members. Currently the
courts are rebuffing Bush's manuevers to skirt and bypass the law.
People and organizations are paying the price first, for their
complicity with the Bush way of thinking.


I hope ATT gets nailed bigtime. They deserve it.


AT&T denies wrongdoing. The lawsuit has been dismissed. Just like
Clinton and Paula Jones. Clinton denied wrongdoing. The lawsuit was
dismissed.

It looks like one court said the lawsuit could go forward, then
another court a couple days later said it couldn't. Nothing like
consistency in our court system.
Unfortunately the Clinton parallel doesn't quite work here.
The suit isn't being blocked due to whether AT&T is culpable.
The suit is being blocked because if it goes forward it may
violate another law against disclosure of state secrets to an
enemy.
Clinton boofing a former secretary doesn't exactly qualify as
a state secret (I don't care how popular or intelligent Clinton
was).



.
User: "John Lemke"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 08:15:37 PM
"Perseid" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns980DB5AE1FE76rrfkwrantispamattbic@216.196.97.136...

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> Spat the Words


Woodswun wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:36:41 -0500, Perseid wrote:

"John Lemke" <jflemke@locallink.net> Spat the Words

Dobbs: Why is the president ignoring our laws?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/25/dobbs.july26/index.html
Bush, feds flout the Constitution by finding ways around laws
By Lou Dobbs
CNN


Wednesday, July 26, 2006; Posted: 6:58 p.m. EDT (22:58 GMT)
NEW YORK (CNN) -- With upraised right hand and left hand on the
Bible, each of our presidents, from George Washington to George W.
Bush, has solemnly sworn to "preserve, protect and defend" the
Constitution of the United States.

The American Bar Association claims President Bush has violated that
oath by issuing hundreds of "signing statements" to disregard
selected provisions of the laws that Congress passed and he signed.


Did you hear that the case against ATT for illegally handing over
phone records to the government will be allowed to proceed ?
If you look at history and how dictators rise to power, Hitler is
a good example, you'll find that the first thing they do is take
over the courts and fill them with party members. Currently the
courts are rebuffing Bush's manuevers to skirt and bypass the law.
People and organizations are paying the price first, for their
complicity with the Bush way of thinking.


I hope ATT gets nailed bigtime. They deserve it.


AT&T denies wrongdoing. The lawsuit has been dismissed. Just like
Clinton and Paula Jones. Clinton denied wrongdoing. The lawsuit was
dismissed.


It looks like one court said the lawsuit could go forward, then
another court a couple days later said it couldn't. Nothing like
consistency in our court system.

Unfortunately the Clinton parallel doesn't quite work here.
The suit isn't being blocked due to whether AT&T is culpable.
The suit is being blocked because if it goes forward it may
violate another law against disclosure of state secrets to an
enemy.

Clinton boofing a former secretary doesn't exactly qualify as
a state secret (I don't care how popular or intelligent Clinton
was).

FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism. People have been using the David and
Goliath allegory transculturally for centuries.
New technique. "Logically" spinning the discussion out of context.
He does get tedious after awhile, doesn't he?
.
User: "Steven Douglas"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 10:14:48 PM
John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.

Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.


People have been using the David and Goliath allegory
transculturally for centuries.

Did you see the link to the map I posted? I mentioned the cultural
aspect because of its irony in this case -- but my larger point was the
size of Israel compared to the Arab world (which doesn't even include
Iran).


New technique. "Logically" spinning the discussion out of context.

He does get tedious after awhile, doesn't he?

That's tedious? I was going to let your commentary about huge
walk-in-closets go by without comment -- however, now I feel compelled
to comment ... how huge does a walk-in-closet have to be before you
consider it huge? What if someone just has a small walk-in-closet?
Would that be acceptable in your judgement? How many square feet do you
consider acceptable for a walk-in-closet, and how many square feet does
a walk-in-closet have to be before you consider it to be huge?
I was considering how a person who lives in a one room apartment, with
only a shelf and pole alongside the dressing area, might feel justified
in judging someone else who has an actual enclosed closet (not a
walk-in-closet, but just a regular clothes closet). Would the person
with the shelf and pole be justified in making some arbitrary judgement
about people who have enclosed closets? And just for the record (just
in case anyone is wondering), I don't have a walk-in-closet. I do have
an enclosed closet.
Also, could you please explain who controls the oil in the Middle East?
Thanks!
.
User: "Perseid"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 10:26:33 PM
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> Spat the Words


John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.


Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.

Why do you always like to blame the victim ? It was Bush who
was spreading all the nasty lies and pushing for war. A
President chooses what agenda to pursue and what issues to
promote. Bush chose to push war by publicizing and promoting
all information which supported a call to arms, and suppressing
all information which argued against war. Accept it, live with
it, and move on with your life.


People have been using the David and Goliath allegory
transculturally for centuries.


.
User: "John Lemke"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 28 Jul 2006 06:26:09 AM
"Perseid" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns980DDA2068D5Arrfkwrantispamattbic@216.196.97.136...

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> Spat the Words


John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.


Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.


Why do you always like to blame the victim ? It was Bush who
was spreading all the nasty lies and pushing for war.

But Bush wasn't lying according to Steven, Randy.
Bush, Deferment ***** and all those other valorous, combat tested think tank
boys, those highly decorated policy makers, were only using the scary stuff,
the weak intel while ignoring volumes and volumes, reams of information
gathered during the previous ten years showing that Saddam had no wmd, no
wmd programs. Couldn't show that mountain of information openly because it
would prove that the goal of containing and dismantling Saddam had been
accomplished.
Is it really a lie when a president and his administration doesn't tell the
people the whole truth? Is he really lying when he uses mischaracterized
intelligence to justify sending tens of thousands of people to their deaths?
Are you morally deficient when you defend the lies and actions and policies
that cause so much murder and mayhem, so much waste?
.
User: "Steven Douglas"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 28 Jul 2006 08:13:33 AM
John Lemke wrote:

"Perseid" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns980DDA2068D5Arrfkwrantispamattbic@216.196.97.136...

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> Spat the Words


John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.


Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.


Why do you always like to blame the victim ? It was Bush who
was spreading all the nasty lies and pushing for war.


But Bush wasn't lying according to Steven, Randy.

According to a lot more people than just me, John.


Bush, Deferment ***** and all those other valorous, combat tested think tank
boys, those highly decorated policy makers, were only using the scary stuff,
the weak intel while ignoring volumes and volumes, reams of information
gathered during the previous ten years showing that Saddam had no wmd, no
wmd programs. Couldn't show that mountain of information openly because it
would prove that the goal of containing and dismantling Saddam had been
accomplished.

Is it really a lie when a president and his administration doesn't tell the
people the whole truth? Is he really lying when he uses mischaracterized
intelligence to justify sending tens of thousands of people to their deaths?

Please read the following article from a former Clinton administration
official -- and please read the entire article before responding --
even though he has a moderate position, I believe you'll find something
in there to like:
[except] U.S. government analysts were not alone in these views. In the
late spring of 2002 I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi
WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the
United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in
1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior
people put a question to the group: Did anyone in the room doubt that
Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did.
Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret
calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).
Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S.
views. Somewhat remarkably, given how adamantly Germany would oppose
the war, the German Federal Intelligence Service held the bleakest view
of all, arguing that Iraq might be able to build a nuclear weapon
within three years. Israel, Russia, Britain, China, and even France
held positions similar to that of the United States; France's President
Jacques Chirac told Time magazine last February, "There is a
problem-the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an
uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right ...
in having decided Iraq should be disarmed." In sum, no one doubted that
Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. [end excerpt]
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/pollack


Are you morally deficient when you defend the lies and actions and policies
that cause so much murder and mayhem, so much waste?

That's right, keep judging anyone who has a different opinion from your
own -- or which of your neighbors has a material possession or two that
exceed your own.
.


User: "Steven Douglas"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 27 Jul 2006 10:34:25 PM
Perseid wrote:

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> Spat the Words


John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.


Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.


Why do you always like to blame the victim ? It was Bush who
was spreading all the nasty lies and pushing for war. A
President chooses what agenda to pursue and what issues to
promote. Bush chose to push war by publicizing and promoting
all information which supported a call to arms, and suppressing
all information which argued against war. Accept it, live with
it, and move on with your life.

I'm not the one who keeps raising the issue. I just responded to
someone else raising the issue. Why don't you tell him to move on with
his life? And by the way, Gephardt specifically said he DID NOT rely on
Bush for his intelligence. He went directly to the Clinton appointed
CIA director, and to former Clinton administration officials. He came
away convinced that Saddam was a threat, and he would do anything in
his power to prevent a WMD from being used in this country.
.


User: "John Lemke"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 28 Jul 2006 06:00:18 AM
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154056488.721695.236880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.


Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.


People have been using the David and Goliath allegory
transculturally for centuries.


Did you see the link to the map I posted? I mentioned the cultural
aspect because of its irony in this case -- but my larger point was the
size of Israel compared to the Arab world (which doesn't even include
Iran).

Could you post a map of the Middle East that shows the relative size of the
countries according to the size of their nuclear arsenals?
How large is Israel then?


New technique. "Logically" spinning the discussion out of context.

He does get tedious after awhile, doesn't he?


That's tedious? I was going to let your commentary about huge
walk-in-closets go by without comment --

<snip>
I have to let you know, Steven, that I read about 2% of your posts and then
only 2% of those all the way thru. If you weren't such a game playin' little
geek I might read 3%
Lenny Bruce once said that he could never imagine why a preacher would own
two sportcoats when most of the men in the world couldn't afford 1.
Now, I know it's also pretty easy to dismiss Lenny and ignore anything
important he had to say.
.
User: "Steven Douglas"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 28 Jul 2006 08:05:25 AM
John Lemke wrote:

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154056488.721695.236880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


John Lemke wrote:


FDR and Wilson weren't using mischaracterized intelligence to justify
pre-emptive wars and adventurism.


Neither was Democratic Leader Gephardt when he voted to authorize the
war.


People have been using the David and Goliath allegory
transculturally for centuries.


Did you see the link to the map I posted? I mentioned the cultural
aspect because of its irony in this case -- but my larger point was the
size of Israel compared to the Arab world (which doesn't even include
Iran).



Could you post a map of the Middle East that shows the relative size of the
countries according to the size of their nuclear arsenals?
How large is Israel then?


New technique. "Logically" spinning the discussion out of context.

He does get tedious after awhile, doesn't he?


That's tedious? I was going to let your commentary about huge
walk-in-closets go by without comment --


<snip>

I have to let you know, Steven, that I read about 2% of your posts and then
only 2% of those all the way thru. If you weren't such a game playin' little
geek I might read 3%

I should care?


Lenny Bruce once said that he could never imagine why a preacher would own
two sportcoats when most of the men in the world couldn't afford 1.

Was Lenny Bruce a religious man?


Now, I know it's also pretty easy to dismiss Lenny and ignore anything
important he had to say.

Certainly not everything. Even a broken clock shows the correct time
twice a day.
.
User: "John Lemke"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 29 Jul 2006 06:31:24 AM
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154091925.648629.72550@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...


John Lemke wrote:


I have to let you know, Steven, that I read about 2% of your posts and
then
only 2% of those all the way thru. If you weren't such a game playin'
little
geek I might read 3%


I should care?

Simple point of information for the application of perspective.


Lenny Bruce once said that he could never imagine why a preacher would
own
two sportcoats when most of the men in the world couldn't afford 1.


Was Lenny Bruce a religious man?

In his own way I think he was.


Now, I know it's also pretty easy to dismiss Lenny and ignore anything
important he had to say.


Certainly not everything. Even a broken clock shows the correct time
twice a day.

And it's also important to seek perspective from outside one's societal box
as opposed to manically struggling to keep the lid on it.
.
User: "Steven Douglas"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 29 Jul 2006 08:20:34 AM
John Lemke wrote:

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154091925.648629.72550@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...


John Lemke wrote:


I have to let you know, Steven, that I read about 2% of your posts and
then
only 2% of those all the way thru. If you weren't such a game playin'
little
geek I might read 3%


I should care?


Simple point of information for the application of perspective.


Lenny Bruce once said that he could never imagine why a preacher would
own
two sportcoats when most of the men in the world couldn't afford 1.


Was Lenny Bruce a religious man?


In his own way I think he was.


Now, I know it's also pretty easy to dismiss Lenny and ignore anything
important he had to say.


Certainly not everything. Even a broken clock shows the correct time
twice a day.


And it's also important to seek perspective from outside one's societal box
as opposed to manically struggling to keep the lid on it.

I'm not trying to keep a lid on anything. But if your moral precepts
are based in secular leftist ideology rather than your religious
background, maybe you should make up your mind which should take
precedence. For example, Bruce's point that you mentioned goes against
what I have always thought was a basic moral precept -- that a man with
one coat should be grateful for the coat he has, and should not covet
the second coat of a man with two coats. And should we expect a
preacher to live in poverty (I also don't expect a preacher to live in
luxury -- there is a middle ground)?
.
User: "John Lemke"

Title: Re: Dobbs: Bush, feds flout the Constitution 29 Jul 2006 10:02:39 AM
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154179234.664905.208260@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


John Lemke wrote:

"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154091925.648629.72550@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...


John Lemke wrote:


I have to let you know, Steven, that I read about 2% of your posts and
then
only 2% of those all the way thru. If you weren't such a game playin'
little
geek I might read 3%


I should care?


Simple point of information for the application of perspective.


Lenny Bruce once said that he could never imagine why a preacher would
own
two sportcoats when most of the men in the world couldn't afford 1.


Was Lenny Bruce a religious man?


In his own way I think he was.


Now, I know it's also pretty easy to dismiss Lenny and ignore anything
important he had to say.


Certainly not everything. Even a broken clock shows the correct time
twice a day.


And it's also important to seek perspective from outside one's societal
box
as opposed to manically struggling to keep the lid on it.


I'm not trying to keep a lid on anything. But if your moral precepts
are based in secular leftist ideology rather than your religious
background, maybe you should make up your mind which should take
precedence. For example, Bruce's point that you mentioned goes against
what I have always thought was a basic moral precept -- that a man with
one coat should be grateful for the coat he has, and should not covet
the second coat of a man with two coats. And should we expect a
preacher to live in poverty (I also don't expect a preacher to live in
luxury -- there is a middle ground)?

The only middle ground is union with the Father which is the reason for our
creation. :-)
What does that difficult to acquire union call you to do? I'm not one to
make rules as to exactly how people dress. That would be religious. :-)
I like Lenny's point as a counterpoint to the materialism seen in America in
general and in the Church in particular. It's all point/counterpoint.
Struggle between opposites. Light vs darkness. Sin vs perfection. It's
that dirty struggle in this cauldron of sanctification.
Definitely tedious. :-)
.












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