...wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant patriarchy to try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3944983.stm
More than a third of Turkish women believe they deserve to be beaten if they
argue with their husbands or deny them sex, according to a new survey.
The poll of 8,075 married women by Ankara's Hacettepe University revealed
that 39% thought domestic violence was justified in certain circumstances.
In rural areas, 57% said their spouses were right to beat them, the study
funded by the EU and Turkey showed
.
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 07:03:22 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant patriarchy to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam that
needs to be addressed. I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of the
victim.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief, and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here often
still believe they deserved their beatings (I worked with a woman years ago
who told me her first husband beat her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too. As long
as women are subservient to weak-minded men, some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and sons) do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
Jane
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3944983.stm
More than a third of Turkish women believe they deserve to be beaten if
they
argue with their husbands or deny them sex, according to a new survey.
The poll of 8,075 married women by Ankara's Hacettepe University revealed
that 39% thought domestic violence was justified in certain circumstances.
In rural areas, 57% said their spouses were right to beat them, the study
funded by the EU and Turkey showed
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 07:41:50 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant patriarchy to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam that
needs to be addressed. I would be willing to bet that, if you educate
those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of the
victim.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief, and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here often
still believe they deserved their beatings (I worked with a woman years
ago
who told me her first husband beat her...but she was a ***** to him, so
she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too. As
long
as women are subservient to weak-minded men, some will feel it is "all
their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and sons) do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
You are too judgemental here Jane. When a man and a woman decide
consensually that the man is allowed to use force then you have no right
to interfere. It is their freedom to choose such a relation.
With the same argument that you use you can also forbid BDSM
relations where a submissive or slave and a dominant or master/mistress
decide consensually that their relation is totally different from normal
relationships. They have that freedom too.
As long there is consensuality their relationship is none of your business.
When there is consensuality there is no abuse.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 12:28:31 PM |
|
|
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417cf406$0$25849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam
that
needs to be addressed. I would be willing to bet that, if you educate
those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of the
victim.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief, and if Turkey wishes to join the
EU,
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here often
still believe they deserved their beatings (I worked with a woman years
ago
who told me her first husband beat her...but she was a ***** to him, so
she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too. As
long
as women are subservient to weak-minded men, some will feel it is "all
their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
You are too judgemental here Jane. When a man and a woman decide
consensually that the man is allowed to use force then you have no right
to interfere. It is their freedom to choose such a relation.
Easy for you to say, as a man.
With the same argument that you use you can also forbid BDSM
relations where a submissive or slave and a dominant or master/mistress
decide consensually that their relation is totally different from normal
relationships. They have that freedom too.
There is a vast difference between consensual sexual practices, much of
which is play-acting, except in extreme cases, and being beaten because you
did not "obey" a man.
As long there is consensuality their relationship is none of your
business.
When there is consensuality there is no abuse.
But are they truly consenting, or do they not know any better? Do they have
the means to support themselves if they left their abuser?
Read "The Bookseller of Kabul" by Norwegian Asne Seierstad. You will find
that what they express to other , foreign, women differs entirely from what
is expressed to their own.
Jane
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 08:48:40 PM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:2Jafd.4722$Qs6.489941@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417cf406$0$25849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam
that
needs to be addressed. I would be willing to bet that, if you educate
those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of
the
victim.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief, and if Turkey wishes to join the
EU,
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings (I worked with a woman
years
ago
who told me her first husband beat her...but she was a ***** to him,
so
she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too. As
long
as women are subservient to weak-minded men, some will feel it is "all
their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
You are too judgemental here Jane. When a man and a woman decide
consensually that the man is allowed to use force then you have no right
to interfere. It is their freedom to choose such a relation.
Easy for you to say, as a man.
It should not be that difficult for you too. As long there is consensuality
their relation is none of your business. Only when women are forced
non consensually you have the right to interfere.
With the same argument that you use you can also forbid BDSM
relations where a submissive or slave and a dominant or master/mistress
decide consensually that their relation is totally different from normal
relationships. They have that freedom too.
There is a vast difference between consensual sexual practices, much of
which is play-acting, except in extreme cases, and being beaten because
you
did not "obey" a man.
Have you ever heard of TPE relations in modern western countries where
two intelligent partners decide to have a total power exchange relation?
In such relations the submissive and the dominant decide consensually that
the dominant has the right to punish the submissive if he/she is
disobedient.
Such relations are more common than you seem to believe
As long there is consensuality their relationship is none of your
business.
When there is consensuality there is no abuse.
But are they truly consenting, or do they not know any better? Do they
have
the means to support themselves if they left their abuser?
Again you are way too much judgemental and a bigot. As if muslimwomen
cannot decide for themselves what kind of relation they wish to have.
Read "The Bookseller of Kabul" by Norwegian Asne Seierstad. You will find
that what they express to other , foreign, women differs entirely from
what
is expressed to their own.
And women in the Amish, polygamists in the USA are also retarded people?
Your attempt to demonize the muslims in this forum has failed dramatically.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 09:08:27 PM |
|
|
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417dac6e$0$7085$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:2Jafd.4722$Qs6.489941@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417cf406$0$25849$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam
that
needs to be addressed. I would be willing to bet that, if you
educate
those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the
women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of
the
victim.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief, and if Turkey wishes to join
the
EU,
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse.
(Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy
is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped
"looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings (I worked with a woman
years
ago
who told me her first husband beat her...but she was a ***** to him,
so
she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too.
As
long
as women are subservient to weak-minded men, some will feel it is
"all
their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
You are too judgemental here Jane. When a man and a woman decide
consensually that the man is allowed to use force then you have no
right
to interfere. It is their freedom to choose such a relation.
Easy for you to say, as a man.
It should not be that difficult for you too. As long there is
consensuality
their relation is none of your business. Only when women are forced
non consensually you have the right to interfere.
True. The point is, regardless of what they may say when their men are
around, most of them do not consent to be abused.
With the same argument that you use you can also forbid BDSM
relations where a submissive or slave and a dominant or
master/mistress
decide consensually that their relation is totally different from
normal
relationships. They have that freedom too.
There is a vast difference between consensual sexual practices, much of
which is play-acting, except in extreme cases, and being beaten because
you
did not "obey" a man.
Have you ever heard of TPE relations in modern western countries where
two intelligent partners decide to have a total power exchange relation?
In such relations the submissive and the dominant decide consensually that
the dominant has the right to punish the submissive if he/she is
disobedient.
Such relations are more common than you seem to believe
Indeed I have. To each is his own. If i believed that *most* muslim women
willingly chose to be beaten, I would say "have at it!"
As long there is consensuality their relationship is none of your
business.
When there is consensuality there is no abuse.
But are they truly consenting, or do they not know any better? Do they
have
the means to support themselves if they left their abuser?
Again you are way too much judgemental and a bigot. As if muslimwomen
cannot decide for themselves what kind of relation they wish to have.
For the most part, they are not deciding for themselves. many are married
while still children.
Read "The Bookseller of Kabul" by Norwegian Asne Seierstad. You will
find
that what they express to other , foreign, women differs entirely from
what
is expressed to their own.
And women in the Amish, polygamists in the USA are also retarded people?
I never, ever said "retarded"! Again, you put words in my mouth. (Seems to
be a bad habit of yours) There is a vast difference between "retarded" and
"illiterate"!
The Amish are another throwback to a simpler time. Unlike muslims, however,
they do not try to change the rest of us. Admittedly, I do not know a lot
about the sect.
The polygamist Mormon sects in both Canada and the US are indeed abusive, as
women who have escaped them have reported. Again, they take barely
pubescent girls (whom they provide with minimal education) and marry them to
geezers. They know no other way of life.
Here is a link to the story of one of the women who escaped polygamy. I
have seen the documentary (and others) myself.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon126.htm
Again, education is the key. It has been proven in poverty-stricken
societies all over the world that education empowers women and they are
better able to make choices in their lives. Then, if they choose to be
brood sows and abused by their husbands, at least they make an informed
choice. Otherwise, they no more consent than does a child.
Your attempt to demonize the muslims in this forum has failed
dramatically.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 07:57:22 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant patriarchy to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the benefits adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want their 13 year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like prostitutes or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say. Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are merely empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white lady tells them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of the death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death penalty is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified - on a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death penalty is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously wrong, regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black and white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any other way to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest of the world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you know. It's a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and sons) do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 10:48:34 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want their 13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like prostitutes or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say. Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are merely empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white lady tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of the death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified - on a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death penalty is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black and white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any other way to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest of the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you know. It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view. She said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using force, she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 12:38:49 PM |
|
|
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417d1fca$0$15714$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want their 13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like prostitutes or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say.
Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are merely empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white lady tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of
the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of the death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified - on a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death penalty is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black and
white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any other way
to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest of the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you know.
It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse. (Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped "looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view. She said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using force, she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Astonishing, yes. Refreshing, no. More like pathetic. her idea of a
strong man is my idea of a coward.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 08:19:27 PM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:JSafd.4734$Qs6.492094@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417d1fca$0$15714$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want their 13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like prostitutes
or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like
Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up
thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say.
Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are merely
empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white lady
tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the
women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose of
the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of the
death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death
penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified - on a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death penalty is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black and
white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any other
way
to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest of the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you know.
It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse.
(Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy
is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped
"looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view. She said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using force, she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Astonishing, yes. Refreshing, no. More like pathetic. her idea of a
strong man is my idea of a coward.
Then we agree that there can indeed be totally different definitions about
what a real man is in totally different cultures. We can also agree that
your statement is just a statement, an opinion. We can also agree that
your opinion is in no way superior to her opinion. Problem is that
you apparently consider yourself superior to others.
To me her ideas were indeed refreshing. I had always believed that those
women were somehow submissive non consensually. It was refreshing
to learn that many of them consensually agreed to such relationships.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 08:50:40 PM |
|
|
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417da595$0$25828$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:JSafd.4734$Qs6.492094@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417d1fca$0$15714$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to
islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want their
13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like prostitutes
or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like
Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up
thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say.
Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are merely
empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white lady
tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the
women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose
of
the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of the
death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death
penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified - on a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death penalty is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black and
white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US
regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any other
way
to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest of
the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you know.
It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse.
(Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt illiteracy
is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped
"looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband
beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty, too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters (and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view. She said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using force,
she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Astonishing, yes. Refreshing, no. More like pathetic. her idea of a
strong man is my idea of a coward.
Then we agree that there can indeed be totally different definitions about
what a real man is in totally different cultures. We can also agree that
your statement is just a statement, an opinion. We can also agree that
your opinion is in no way superior to her opinion. Problem is that
you apparently consider yourself superior to others.
No, I am not superior to others. Is western society superior to islamic
society? Damn right it is! It ain't perfect, but it is the best we've got
at the moment and I make NO apologies for saying that!
To me her ideas were indeed refreshing. I had always believed that those
women were somehow submissive non consensually. It was refreshing
to learn that many of them consensually agreed to such relationships.
I doubt it. I think *many* is stretching it! *Many*, however, do feel
unable to express their true opinions, lest they be found out and punished.
Jane
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
25 Oct 2004 09:46:54 PM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:O3ifd.5775$rs5.407876@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417da595$0$25828$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:JSafd.4734$Qs6.492094@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417d1fca$0$15714$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to
islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want
their
13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like
prostitutes
or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like
Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up
thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say.
Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are merely
empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white lady
tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that the
women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/ dispose
of
the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of the
death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death
penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified - on
a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death penalty
is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black
and
white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US
regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any
other
way
to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest of
the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you
know.
It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic abuse.
(Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt
illiteracy
is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped
"looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims
here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband
beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty,
too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters
(and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to
fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view. She
said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using force,
she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Astonishing, yes. Refreshing, no. More like pathetic. her idea of a
strong man is my idea of a coward.
Then we agree that there can indeed be totally different definitions
about
what a real man is in totally different cultures. We can also agree that
your statement is just a statement, an opinion. We can also agree that
your opinion is in no way superior to her opinion. Problem is that
you apparently consider yourself superior to others.
No, I am not superior to others. Is western society superior to islamic
society? Damn right it is! It ain't perfect, but it is the best we've
got
at the moment and I make NO apologies for saying that!
If you claim that you are not superior to others, you immediately agree
that your neighbour is not superior to you or others, that indeed no
individual in your country is superior to any other individual. If all
individuals
in your country are not superior to others then your society (which is the
sum of all individuals) is not superior to other societies. When you claim
that western civillization or society is superior to other (muslim)
civillization
or society you contradict yourself.
To me her ideas were indeed refreshing. I had always believed that those
women were somehow submissive non consensually. It was refreshing
to learn that many of them consensually agreed to such relationships.
I doubt it. I think *many* is stretching it! *Many*, however, do feel
unable to express their true opinions, lest they be found out and
punished.
I am a white caucasian male. When I spoke with her her husband was not
around to listen what she said. Sure, there are muslimwomen who want
another life than the traditional one. If they want another form of relation
with a man we indeed should help them to get it. But, I know that there
are many muslimwomen who indeed are as traditional as their husbands
and want a traditional marriage. And here I can repeat, when there is
consensuality it is not my, your or a state's business to interfere into
such
marriages. Freedom means that you can give up freedom. If you don't get
that it is you who is inferior to those who really seek freedom of choice.
Do you agree that the legislation in the USA is formed by the people?
The people in the USA choose their president, senators and representatives
and all kinds of other authorities right? So, their policies are what the
voters expected right? If you agree to all this then you also agree that
the people want punishment for certain behaviour. If you agree to this then
I want you to read my reply to MTPA in this thread and reply to what
I said there. Why does a state has the right to punish, but *the people*
do not have that same right to punish certain behaviour? Do you think
that the state is superior to the people, the same people who voted for
the authorities?
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
26 Oct 2004 08:52:13 AM |
|
|
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417dba15$0$19568$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:O3ifd.5775$rs5.407876@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417da595$0$25828$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:JSafd.4734$Qs6.492094@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417d1fca$0$15714$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience to
islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the
benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want
their
13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like
prostitutes
or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols" like
Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end up
thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say.
Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can
be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are
merely
empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white
lady
tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that
the
women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/
dispose
of
the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of
the
death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the death
penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified -
on
a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death
penalty
is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously
wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not black
and
white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US
regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any
other
way
to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest
of
the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you
know.
It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic
abuse.
(Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt
illiteracy
is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently stopped
"looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims
here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first husband
beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel guilty,
too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters
(and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to
fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view. She
said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using
force,
she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Astonishing, yes. Refreshing, no. More like pathetic. her idea of
a
strong man is my idea of a coward.
Then we agree that there can indeed be totally different definitions
about
what a real man is in totally different cultures. We can also agree th
at
your statement is just a statement, an opinion. We can also agree that
your opinion is in no way superior to her opinion. Problem is that
you apparently consider yourself superior to others.
No, I am not superior to others. Is western society superior to islamic
society? Damn right it is! It ain't perfect, but it is the best we've
got
at the moment and I make NO apologies for saying that!
If you claim that you are not superior to others, you immediately agree
that your neighbour is not superior to you or others, that indeed no
individual in your country is superior to any other individual. If all
individuals
in your country are not superior to others then your society (which is the
sum of all individuals) is not superior to other societies. When you
claim
that western civillization or society is superior to other (muslim)
civillization
or society you contradict yourself.
To me her ideas were indeed refreshing. I had always believed that
those
women were somehow submissive non consensually. It was refreshing
to learn that many of them consensually agreed to such relationships.
I doubt it. I think *many* is stretching it! *Many*, however, do feel
unable to express their true opinions, lest they be found out and
punished.
I am a white caucasian male. When I spoke with her her husband was not
around to listen what she said. Sure, there are muslimwomen who want
another life than the traditional one. If they want another form of
relation
with a man we indeed should help them to get it. But, I know that there
are many muslimwomen who indeed are as traditional as their husbands
and want a traditional marriage. And here I can repeat, when there is
consensuality it is not my, your or a state's business to interfere into
such
marriages. Freedom means that you can give up freedom. If you don't get
that it is you who is inferior to those who really seek freedom of choice.
My ex-boss, Shahid, told me that when some family members arrived in Canada,
the first thing the women told the wife was "you can phone 911 here!" (He
thought it was a joke; I said good for them!) I don't believe it is a
choice for most of them.
Do you agree that the legislation in the USA is formed by the people?
The people in the USA choose their president, senators and representatives
and all kinds of other authorities right? So, their policies are what the
voters expected right? If you agree to all this then you also agree that
the people want punishment for certain behaviour. If you agree to this
then
I want you to read my reply to MTPA in this thread and reply to what
I said there. Why does a state has the right to punish, but *the people*
do not have that same right to punish certain behaviour?
Good lord, are we not all equals? We DO give the State higher powers,
otherwise we have anarchy. (Maybe you are an anarchist; I am a
law-and-order type) We hope that the people we vote in are superior in some
ways to the average person and will use their powers wisely.
Do you think
that the state is superior to the people, the same people who voted for
the authorities?
In the ways I mentioned above, yes.
Jane
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
27 Oct 2004 04:01:28 AM |
|
|
Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:hEsfd.6485$rs5.496355@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417dba15$0$19568$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:O3ifd.5775$rs5.407876@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417da595$0$25828$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:JSafd.4734$Qs6.492094@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:417d1fca$0$15714$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"tw" <no@no.com> schreef in bericht
news:clit0o$t8g$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dY5fd.3836$rs5.264015@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:clie1m$l66$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
..wouldn't it be a terribly oppressive act by the dominant
patriarchy
to
try
and tell them their morals and beliefs are wrong?
Obviously, there is a lack of education and blind obedience
to
islam
that
needs to be addressed.
That's rather patronising isn't it? Perhaps they feel the
benefits
adherence
to Islam brings are worth the drawbacks?Maybe they don't want
their
13
year
old daughters to be baring their midriffs, dressing like
prostitutes
or
growing up idolising paedophilic, semi-pornographic "idols"
like
Britney
Spears or Aguilera?
I would be willing to bet that, if you educate those
women, their "morals and beliefs" would change.
You mean if you brainwash people to think like you, they end
up
thinking
like you? Well.. *duuh* as I believe our American cousins say.
Obviously,
they have been educated by Islam to believe one thing, and can
be
re-educated by the liberal west to be another - so they are
merely
empty
vessels, unable to decide what they want unless a nice white
lady
tells
them
so, is that what you're saying?
One of the major hurdles in stopping honour killings is that
the
women
in
the family often cooperate in helping the males to find/
dispose
of
the
victim.
One of the major hurdles in stopping the barbaric practise of
the
death
penalty is that people allow it to happen. You believe the
death
penalty
is
justified, these people believe honour kilings are justified -
on
a
philosophical level, what's the difference?
Wrong is wrong, regardless of belief
That is merely *your* belief. You also believe the death
penalty
is
justifiable - to me that's another thing that is obviously
wrong,
regardless
of belief. You, however hold a different belief - it's not
black
and
white
is it? (incidentally, this is the same attitude the current US
regime
displays - the utter lack of acceptance that there exists any
other
way
to
do things than their way, and the total surprise that the rest
of
the
world
doesn't march on lockstep woith them)
,and if Turkey wishes to join the EU,
We said they could after they abolished the death penalty, you
know.
It's
a
matter of priority.
it should indeed campaign to stop acceptance of domestic
abuse.
(Note
that
that the percentage is higher in rural areas...no doubt
illiteracy
is
higher
in those areas, as well). We have only very recently
stopped
"looking
the
other way" when domestic abuse happens in the West. Victims
here
often
still believe they deserved their beatings
What should a man do if his wife physically attacks him?
(I worked with a woman years ago who told me her first
husband
beat
her...but she was a ***** to him, so she
deserved it. Unbelievable!) Rape victims often feel
guilty,
too.
As long as women are subservient to weak-minded men,
I imagine it takes quite a strong-minded person to make
someone
subservient..
some will feel it is "all their
fault". We must fight this attitude so that their daughters
(and
sons)
do
not grow up with the same beliefs.
By indoctrinating them with your own set of beliefs?
I once spoke to a muslim woman and asked her about her beliefs.
We talked about the right of the man to slap her face and to
fysically
restrain her. She had a refreshing astonishing point of view.
She
said
that if her husband was not able to control her by even using
force,
she
would leave him immediately stating that such a man is not a
man.
Thus showing that women from different cultures can have totally
different opinions about what a real man is.
Astonishing, yes. Refreshing, no. More like pathetic. her idea
of
a
strong man is my idea of a coward.
Then we agree that there can indeed be totally different definitions
about
what a real man is in totally different cultures. We can also agree
th
at
your statement is just a statement, an opinion. We can also agree
that
your opinion is in no way superior to her opinion. Problem is that
you apparently consider yourself superior to others.
No, I am not superior to others. Is western society superior to
islamic
society? Damn right it is! It ain't perfect, but it is the best
we've
got
at the moment and I make NO apologies for saying that!
If you claim that you are not superior to others, you immediately agree
that your neighbour is not superior to you or others, that indeed no
individual in your country is superior to any other individual. If all
individuals
in your country are not superior to others then your society (which is
the
sum of all individuals) is not superior to other societies. When you
claim
that western civillization or society is superior to other (muslim)
civillization
or society you contradict yourself.
To me her ideas were indeed refreshing. I had always believed that
those
women were somehow submissive non consensually. It was refreshing
to learn that many of them consensually agreed to such
relationships.
I doubt it. I think *many* is stretching it! *Many*, however, do
feel
unable to express their true opinions, lest they be found out and
punished.
I am a white caucasian male. When I spoke with her her husband was not
around to listen what she said. Sure, there are muslimwomen who want
another life than the traditional one. If they want another form of
relation
with a man we indeed should help them to get it. But, I know that there
are many muslimwomen who indeed are as traditional as their husbands
and want a traditional marriage. And here I can repeat, when there is
consensuality it is not my, your or a state's business to interfere into
such
marriages. Freedom means that you can give up freedom. If you don't get
that it is you who is inferior to those who really seek freedom of
choice.
My ex-boss, Shahid, told me that when some family members arrived in
Canada,
the first thing the women told the wife was "you can phone 911 here!" (He
thought it was a joke; I said good for them!) I don't believe it is a
choice for most of them.
Give me a break, there are phonelines like that in Turkey as well. I have
been there and I have noticed such. Geez, you really think that Turkey is
some country where they don't have police-phonelines? You really think
that non consensual abuse and violence is legal in Turkey? Of course it
is not.
Do you agree that the legislation in the USA is formed by the people?
The people in the USA choose their president, senators and
representatives
and all kinds of other authorities right? So, their policies are what
the
voters expected right? If you agree to all this then you also agree that
the people want punishment for certain behaviour. If you agree to this
then
I want you to read my reply to MTPA in this thread and reply to what
I said there. Why does a state has the right to punish, but *the people*
do not have that same right to punish certain behaviour?
Good lord, are we not all equals? We DO give the State higher powers,
otherwise we have anarchy. (Maybe you are an anarchist; I am a
law-and-order type) We hope that the people we vote in are superior in
some
ways to the average person and will use their powers wisely.
We are indeed equals, that is my opinion. Bush comes out of a vagina, so
did I, Bush will die someday, so will I, there is not a single reason to
justify
that he is unequal to me. But you did not answer my point. Do you really
believe that only the state has the authority to punish civillians for their
behaviour and *the people* have no rights to punish?
Do you think
that the state is superior to the people, the same people who voted for
the authorities?
In the ways I mentioned above, yes.
I don't think that the state who was formed after elections by *the people*
is superior to those same people.
In another thread I mentioned the Amish and the polygamists in the USA
as an example that traditional ways of living do not only occur in muslim
countries. You declared that the western civillization was superior to any
other form of civillization. The way the Amish live and even polygami is
not condemned by the Bible (the archfathers had more than one wife and
even slaves), so do you consider such Christians as same retarded as you
clearly consider traditional muslims retarded? And do you also condemn
those TPE relations which I mentioned before? Do you think they are
retarded people as well. BTW, if you declare one civillization and its
standards superior to other systems those other systems are inferior or
retardic right?
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
27 Oct 2004 09:33:45 AM |
|
|
<snip>
BTW, you bring up the polygamists again, but have not replied to the article
I posted about a woman who escaped the polygamist society in BC. Have you
bothered to read it?
BTW, I do not say that polygamy (or polyandry) are intrinsically wrong.
(The Chinese may have to practice polyandry now that they don't have enough
females to go around! Either that or go to war...But I digress...)
However, the way it is practiced by these "Mormon" sects is wrong...female
children left uneducated and married off to old geezers to be used as brood
sows. If given a chance to learn that there is another way to live, many
will try to escape.
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
28 Oct 2004 06:44:54 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:alOfd.7364$rs5.682024@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
BTW, you bring up the polygamists again, but have not replied to the
article
I posted about a woman who escaped the polygamist society in BC. Have you
bothered to read it?
I think you confuse her with the latest sexscandal in the Amish-society
where
the Amish wanted to take care of the situation instead of having a member of
the Amish being sentenced by the US authorities?
Again you try to confront me with non consensual events in relationships
and I have already explained that only relationships where there is non
consensual abuse or punishments I, you and/or the state have the right to
interfere. In all other relationships where a man and a woman decide
consensually that one is submissive to the other their relationship is none
of your business.
BTW, I do not say that polygamy (or polyandry) are intrinsically wrong.
(The Chinese may have to practice polyandry now that they don't have
enough
females to go around! Either that or go to war...But I digress...)
However, the way it is practiced by these "Mormon" sects is wrong...female
children left uneducated and married off to old geezers to be used as
brood
sows. If given a chance to learn that there is another way to live, many
will try to escape.
That is only your biased opinion.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
28 Oct 2004 09:58:01 AM |
|
|
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:4180db27$0$1430$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:alOfd.7364$rs5.682024@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
BTW, you bring up the polygamists again, but have not replied to the
article
I posted about a woman who escaped the polygamist society in BC. Have
you
bothered to read it?
I think you confuse her with the latest sexscandal in the Amish-society
where
the Amish wanted to take care of the situation instead of having a member
of
the Amish being sentenced by the US authorities?
Again you try to confront me with non consensual events in relationships
and I have already explained that only relationships where there is non
consensual abuse or punishments I, you and/or the state have the right to
interfere. In all other relationships where a man and a woman decide
consensually that one is submissive to the other their relationship is
none
of your business.
I have agreed with you on that. However, I do not believe most muslim women
consent to their abuse and I am well-read on the matter. Again, you are
basing what you say on a conversation with a single female and a flawed
survey.
BTW, I do not say that polygamy (or polyandry) are intrinsically wrong.
(The Chinese may have to practice polyandry now that they don't have
enough
females to go around! Either that or go to war...But I digress...)
However, the way it is practiced by these "Mormon" sects is
wrong...female
children left uneducated and married off to old geezers to be used as
brood
sows. If given a chance to learn that there is another way to live,
many
will try to escape.
That is only your biased opinion.
So, I am biased to believe that girls should have the same educational
opportunities as boys and should be given the tools to choose how they wish
to live? (Mind you, in the Fundementalist Mormon enclaves of Bountiful and
Colorado City, even boys are not educated past grade 10 and most of the
education is religious propaganda...much like a Madrassa, how about that?)
Jane
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barbarossa" |
|
| Title: Re: FAO Jane: Turkish women "back beating" |
29 Oct 2004 06:22:25 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:XN7gd.16912$Qs6.1455236@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:4180db27$0$1430$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:alOfd.7364$rs5.682024@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
BTW, you bring up the polygamists again, but have not replied to the
article
I posted about a woman who escaped the polygamist society in BC. Have
you
bothered to read it?
I think you confuse her with the latest sexscandal in the Amish-society
where
the Amish wanted to take care of the situation instead of having a
member
of
the Amish being sentenced by the US authorities?
Again you try to confront me with non consensual events in relationships
and I have already explained that only relationships where there is non
consensual abuse or punishments I, you and/or the state have the right
to
interfere. In all other relationships where a man and a woman decide
consensually that one is submissive to the other their relationship is
none
of your business.
I have agreed with you on that. However, I do not believe most muslim
women
consent to their abuse and I am well-read on the matter. Again, you are
basing what you say on a conversation with a single female and a flawed
survey.
Which is only a flawed survey in your eyes because you don't like the
outcome.
BTW, I do not say that polygamy (or polyandry) are intrinsically
wrong.
(The Chinese may have to practice polyandry now that they don't have
enough
females to go around! Either that or go to war...But I digress...)
However, the way it is practiced by these "Mormon" sects is
wrong...female
children left uneducated and married off to old geezers to be used as
brood
sows. If given a chance to learn that there is another way to live,
many
will try to escape.
That is only your biased opinion.
So, I am biased to believe that girls should have the same educational
opportunities as boys and should be given the tools to choose how they
wish
to live? (Mind you, in the Fundementalist Mormon enclaves of Bountiful
and
Colorado City, even boys are not educated past grade 10 and most of the
education is religious propaganda...much like a Madrassa, how about that?)
In most poor coutries, drained and ravaged by the greed of the so called
western
"civillized" world there is no time to get education. People need to earn
money
to make a living, they only worry about basic survival. Your above statement
only
shows how totally ignorant you are about the world now and then. Your
lecturing about luxury, they live the real life.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
.
|
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