Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
.
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| User: "Dan" |
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| Title: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
29 Feb 2004 12:39:32 PM |
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Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
.
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| User: "Grantland" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
29 Feb 2004 12:43:55 PM |
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"Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> queried, plaintively:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Nope. Sorry.
Grantland
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| User: "DaarkSyde" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
01 Mar 2004 07:41:53 AM |
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On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Is there truly a "god"?
Would he not put an end to all the suffering of and pain of war?
What about re-incarnation? If there was a book of life, would "god"
give a soul so many chances by returning until a soul is perfect?
I believe we will not know until we die. I personally believe that we
are an entity that keeps returning until perfection is achieved at
which point we enter the afterlife, or "god" spiritual realm.
.
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| User: "naming el" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
01 Mar 2004 02:20:41 PM |
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DaarkSyde <DaarkSyde@everywhere.com> wrote in message news:<12f640lut97fecte7svfbofh720drd7oom@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Is there truly a "god"?
Would he not put an end to all the suffering of and pain of war?
What about re-incarnation? If there was a book of life, would "god"
give a soul so many chances by returning until a soul is perfect?
I believe we will not know until we die. I personally believe that we
are an entity that keeps returning until perfection is achieved at
which point we enter the afterlife, or "god" spiritual realm.
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/signs.htm
one of my favorite sites has this to say about perfection today.
"Perfection is the state of being without a flaw or defect.
Historically, man seeks perfection in all things. The perfect body,
the perfect mind, the perfect religion, the perfect nation, the
perfect car, the perfect house, the perfect family, the perfect life.
It seems that this last idea, the perfect life, is the most desired.
Quite often, the perfect life is defined by some combination of other
ideals.
The American Dream is a good example. We convince ourselves that we
live in the perfect country, jam-packed with the best of everything:
freedom, democracy, baseball, apple pie - and then we strive to fill
our lives with things that are generally regarded as indications that
we have "made it". We think that if we have a place in such a country
- complete with the spouse, house, two cars, 2.5 children, and a nice
401k - that we will have reached a certain state of heaven on earth.
Some people achieve this dream, while others climb endlessly their
entire lives to attempt to reach the so-called peak.
For those that do reach the summit, eventually they realize that there
is something better. The neighbor has a fancier car or a bigger house,
and we decide that if only we could have those things as well, then we
would truly have reached that elusive state of perfection. Of course,
this process will and must repeat endlessly, as there is always
something better and bigger to be acquired or achieved.
Some people don't worry about material possessions; they are more
concerned with the afterlife. Realizing, perhaps, that they will never
be wealthy, they instead decide that perfection cannot be achieved in
this world, and so they seek it in the next life. There really is no
difference between the desire for material and religious perfection.
In both cases, the goal becomes something invisible, intangible, and
just over the horizon. The goal becomes the mirage sought by the
parched inhabitants of a desert reality.
Many people desire perfection in another."
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
01 Mar 2004 06:25:54 PM |
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"naming el" <naming_el@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61cc8295.0403011220.b751951@posting.google.com...
DaarkSyde <DaarkSyde@everywhere.com> wrote in message
news:<12f640lut97fecte7svfbofh720drd7oom@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Is there truly a "god"?
Would he not put an end to all the suffering of and pain of war?
What about re-incarnation? If there was a book of life, would "god"
give a soul so many chances by returning until a soul is perfect?
I believe we will not know until we die. I personally believe that we
are an entity that keeps returning until perfection is achieved at
which point we enter the afterlife, or "god" spiritual realm.
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
A good question... sort of points out the difficulties, doesn't it?
Perfection? I believe Perfection is an Illusion... (except in the case of
Cindy Crawford).
Evolutionarily speaking, we are merely a bridge between past and future
generations... each generation a little more suited to his environment.
Spiritually speaking, how do we strive to achieve perfection?
Well, a short answer would be by Living, by Loving, by Teaching... and then
getting out of the way... (dying gracefully and without burden to others is
always a plus).
;)
.
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| User: "naming el" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 01:31:40 PM |
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"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<mwQ0c.14706$yZ1.9357@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"naming el" <naming_el@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61cc8295.0403011220.b751951@posting.google.com...
DaarkSyde <DaarkSyde@everywhere.com> wrote in message
news:<12f640lut97fecte7svfbofh720drd7oom@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Is there truly a "god"?
Would he not put an end to all the suffering of and pain of war?
What about re-incarnation? If there was a book of life, would "god"
give a soul so many chances by returning until a soul is perfect?
I believe we will not know until we die. I personally believe that we
are an entity that keeps returning until perfection is achieved at
which point we enter the afterlife, or "god" spiritual realm.
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
A good question... sort of points out the difficulties, doesn't it?
Perfection? I believe Perfection is an Illusion... (except in the case of
Cindy Crawford).
Evolutionarily speaking, we are merely a bridge between past and future
generations... each generation a little more suited to his environment.
Spiritually speaking, how do we strive to achieve perfection?
Well, a short answer would be by Living, by Loving, by Teaching... and then
getting out of the way... (dying gracefully and without burden to others is
always a plus).
;)
I may change my mind in a few years, but i think the eskimos had a
great medicare program. They put them on a chunk of ice with enough
possesions to make them comfortable and watched them float away.
Er, when they were ready, of course. ;) This would sure beat the
heck out of life support.
Just a side; i read something about pet owners having their pets put
on life support. this has to be the ultimate statment of how
destructive wrongly directed love can be.
.
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 08:16:56 PM |
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"naming el" <naming_el@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61cc8295.0403021131.79f93e2e@posting.google.com...
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<mwQ0c.14706$yZ1.9357@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"naming el" <naming_el@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61cc8295.0403011220.b751951@posting.google.com...
DaarkSyde <DaarkSyde@everywhere.com> wrote in message
news:<12f640lut97fecte7svfbofh720drd7oom@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca>
wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Is there truly a "god"?
Would he not put an end to all the suffering of and pain of war?
What about re-incarnation? If there was a book of life, would
"god"
give a soul so many chances by returning until a soul is perfect?
I believe we will not know until we die. I personally believe that
we
are an entity that keeps returning until perfection is achieved at
which point we enter the afterlife, or "god" spiritual realm.
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
Well, a short answer would be by Living, by Loving, by Teaching... and
then
getting out of the way... (dying gracefully and without burden to
others is
always a plus).
;)
I may change my mind in a few years, but i think the eskimos had a
great medicare program. They put them on a chunk of ice with enough
possesions to make them comfortable and watched them float away.
Er, when they were ready, of course. ;) This would sure beat the
heck out of life support.
Just a side; i read something about pet owners having their pets put
on life support. this has to be the ultimate statment of how
destructive wrongly directed love can be.
Those are very good examples, IMHO.
Mis-directed 'love' have be very selfish and self-serving... to the point of
destroying the object of our affection.
In fact... all of the words I used (Living, Loving, Teaching) have different
meanings for different people... and all (apparently) can be mis-directed...
.... but we all seem to know intuitively what one means when one uses those
words.
Or do we?
;)
.
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 02:21:24 AM |
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(naming el) wrote in message news:<61cc8295.0403011220.b751951@posting.google.com>...
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
================================================================================
Just be like me Naming....that will do it ;)
Werewolfy
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| User: "naming el" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 01:22:08 PM |
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(Werewolfy) wrote in message news:<85ebfda0.0403020021.64bf5ad7@posting.google.com>...
naming_el@hotmail.com (naming el) wrote in message news:<61cc8295.0403011220.b751951@posting.google.com>...
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
================================================================================
Just be like me Naming....that will do it ;)
Werewolfy
Just a guess WW, but i think you would find perfection rather dull. ;)
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 06:18:33 PM |
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(naming el) wrote in message news:<61cc8295.0403021122.3c88587f@posting.google.com>...
RickyColeclough@aol.com (Werewolfy) wrote in message news:<85ebfda0.0403020021.64bf5ad7@posting.google.com>...
(naming el) wrote in message news:<61cc8295.0403011220.b751951@posting.google.com>...
Um, i can go along with that. My question would be......what is
perfection and how do we strive to achieve it?
================================================================================
Just be like me Naming....that will do it ;)
Werewolfy
Just a guess WW, but i think you would find perfection rather dull. ;)
True. Perfection would be dull. Imagine LOTR Return of the King
without the violence and strong emotions. Mister Spock was close to
perfection, as mortals go, except for amok time every 5 years.
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
03 Mar 2004 02:14:35 AM |
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(naming el) wrote in message news:<61cc8295.0403021122.3c88587f@posting.google.com>...
Just be like me Naming....that will do it ;)
Werewolfy
Just a guess WW, but i think you would find perfection rather dull. ;)
================================================================================
How true Naming.
I do, yes I do ;)
Werewolfy ;)
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 06:24:03 PM |
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DaarkSyde <DaarkSyde@everywhere.com> wrote in message news:<12f640lut97fecte7svfbofh720drd7oom@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Is there truly a "god"?
I doubt there is a truly perfect God with reach across and beyond the
universe. Even the biblical one repented.
I do believe there are many gods though, and many of them think
they're perfect.
I certainly believe there are intelligences exceeding those of mortal
humans though.
.....................
Would he not put an end to all the suffering of and pain of war?
What about re-incarnation? If there was a book of life, would "god"
give a soul so many chances by returning until a soul is perfect?
I believe we will not know until we die. I personally believe that we
are an entity that keeps returning until perfection is achieved at
which point we enter the afterlife, or "god" spiritual realm.
.
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| User: "Dani" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
29 Feb 2004 07:33:18 PM |
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On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:32 GMT, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Supposedly (or some have said, rather..)
I dunno for sure, Dan.. not one of us do.
But I have a problem with the idea of names written in "a book
of life" because even the worst of us have the ability to change at
one point or another. How can these "names" be pre-determined
if Jesus will forgive all if truly asked and meant. In other words,
an 80 year old could've been an ***** all his life, right .. then at
81 he finally recognizes his ways and becomes a decent person.
Boom at 82 he dies.. (what, does St. Peter say "grab me the pen" real
quick?)
Or maybe God knows our complete destiny.. from beginning to end; every
single little thing we'll ever do in our entire lives. Maybe he knew
that the man would change at 81.
That's why I say we just don't know.
Dani
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| User: "cesar" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 12:36:43 AM |
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"Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:E8W%b.635043$X%5.465289@pd7tw2no...
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Dan,
Here's the answer to your question, using quantum mechanic.
http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/ardlouis/dissipative/Schrcat.html
Let me know if you need an explanation of this.
cesar
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 05:21:24 AM |
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"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<404036fc_2@127.0.0.1>...
"Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:E8W%b.635043$X%5.465289@pd7tw2no...
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
================================================================================
It seems rather unlikely that there is a 'book as we know it' (Jim) in
which meticulous records of our actions are recorded and are
immutable. I fancy that there must be at the least a computer data
base (should such a record exist.)
But that's not really the question, is it Dan. You would prefer the
subject expanded to examine whether or not actions are not only
immutable...but maybe even pre-ordained. Perhaps time itelf is after
all, non existant, and we have no real control over that which 'is
written' for us?
Interesting..and about as answerable as 'Where did the initial mass of
the Universe come from?'
It comes down finally to individual experiences and belief. Sometimes,
'Belief' is no more than an aggitation of the brain's temporal lobes,
a sort of brain epilepsy. This gives rise in a sufferer to an utter
conviction that he is God and similar delusions. Cesar may well have
this condition.
Even God was recorded (some believe) as saying, 'Beware of false
prophets'. Maybe He had something, seeing the conversations that take
place in this forum.
So, it's down to opinions at the end of the day I suppose. My own?
Well, I suspect that there is something in that belief. I don't mean
we are all judged..or otherwise. No, I mean that I feel fairly sure
that we are committed to a certain way through life...regardless of
that way being dictated by any 'God' or by any 'Devil' I think the
future is unchangeable and obeys universal laws in much the same way
as the physical universe does.
I think that any advance knowledge of the future is no more than that,
a knowing. Nothing we can do will change it...whether we know, or not.
When I was a youth....I was told of a dream. A vivid dream in which my
brother was hanging from a ladder, impaled on two spikes. It was so
disturbing, so all-consuming, that the person who had this vision
charged me with guarding Patrick (my brother) and she begged me not to
'let him out of my sight'
The ferocity, the conviction of the request was such that I did just
that. I watched over him carefully.
Two days later we were exploring a bombed out theatre. I was away from
Patrick for a few minutes...saw he wasn't about and frantically
started to look for him.
I found him nearby. He was impaled, head down, on a steel emergency
escape ladder with one spike through his head, and the other through
his chest.
I need say no more I think.
Yes, I don't suspect, I know that a dream can tell the future. I also
feel certain that having this advanced knowledge will never alter that
which is to be.
I can't say I am comfortable with that, but the account above had a
profound impression on the way I think.
I dont bandy the story around. This is probably only the third or
fourth time I've re-counted it. Why? Because no-one can truly believe
you. They must have their own experiences to do that.
I wonder. Has anyone else had a similar experience?
That's mine, for whatever it's worth.
Werewolfy
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| User: "Dan" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 07:11:40 AM |
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"Werewolfy" wrote;
=================================================================
===============
Whoa, that's some heavy ***** dude. I read what you wrote about
your brother, and I am really sorry man. I have no idea as to how
I would be able to handle that entire episode in your life. Sorry
Wolfy, I don't know what to say. If that happened to my brother
when we we younger, and I saw it happen, god. It's like trying to
put those images of 'The Passion', and the real Passion out of my
mind, which is precisely why I'm typing on a keyboard at 4:30
a.m. a full two days after watching it. Since then, I've had less
than three hours sleep total, bud. No kidding. I'm haunted, but
it's not a 'bad' haunt, you know what I mean?
I don't know where your brother is now, mate. But I can pray for
him, it's NOT too late, did you know that? Him and you both are
officially on my list. I don't need to know his or your actual
names, God knows them, that's all that counts.
I had an elderly (74) Aunt die of stomach cancer last September.
She died in the very same hospital where she was Head
Anesthesiologist (Anesthetist) for some thirty odd years. She was
like a mother to me growing up, as my own decided to do a
Margaret Trudeau when I was six, and go look for herself. I loved
my Aunt all to bits, but she had a nasty bedside manner for a
doctor, you know? She didn't put up with any ***** from
anyone, ever, and she let you know it, right between the bloody
eyes, not a single punch pulled. But down deep inside, you knew
she had a heart made of pure gold, and at times, she let it just
glow. And she hated God with a purple passion, and would rant on
and on about how stupid and evil religion was, and that if truly
God exists, He must be a monster, etc.
Anyhow, to make a long story short, I had the opportunity to pray
for her soul while she lay dyiing in my arms, and I missed it,
deliberately. And I felt horrible, that I knew what I still
believe to be specific prayer, according to my faith, for those
who are dying, to save them from the horrors of Hell. That you
can actually, in a way, stand in the gap, vicariously through
Jesus, withstay Satan's claws from digging into somebody's soul
and pulling it down into the Abyss with him upon their death.
But, as I started coming back to my faith, in no small part
because of that experience, that I 'knew' God so much already
from prior encounters, that I also knew in my heart of hearts
that he was there with me, brushing her hair while she lay
comatose due to the morphine they kept pumping into her, as I
cried like a little kid about childish memories of us arguing
about matters, and how it separated us finally. And how I wished
I could turn back time, just to be able to tell her how much I
loved her, and would miss her, and goodbye.
Wolfy, God was there, for both of us. And God is here now. The
opposite of Love is not hate, it's indifference and apathy. And
you are anything *but* that. There is still hope for us all.
Unfortunately, that door is closing fast now, and will be soon
shut forever. Search your heart, and follow it, but do it quickly
chum as it is literally a matter of days at this point. The
Spirit is coming down soon in such a way as never before, and
then He will leave. Catch Him, say a prayer if you need to,
scream at Him, it's all good dog.
Dan
It seems rather unlikely that there is a 'book as we know it'
(Jim) in
which meticulous records of our actions are recorded and are
immutable. I fancy that there must be at the least a computer
data
base (should such a record exist.)
But that's not really the question, is it Dan. You would prefer
the
subject expanded to examine whether or not actions are not only
immutable...but maybe even pre-ordained. Perhaps time itelf is
after
all, non existant, and we have no real control over that which
'is
written' for us?
Interesting..and about as answerable as 'Where did the initial
mass of
the Universe come from?'
It comes down finally to individual experiences and belief.
Sometimes,
'Belief' is no more than an aggitation of the brain's temporal
lobes,
a sort of brain epilepsy. This gives rise in a sufferer to an
utter
conviction that he is God and similar delusions. Cesar may well
have
this condition.
Even God was recorded (some believe) as saying, 'Beware of
false
prophets'. Maybe He had something, seeing the conversations
that take
place in this forum.
So, it's down to opinions at the end of the day I suppose. My
own?
Well, I suspect that there is something in that belief. I don't
mean
we are all judged..or otherwise. No, I mean that I feel fairly
sure
that we are committed to a certain way through
life...regardless of
that way being dictated by any 'God' or by any 'Devil' I think
the
future is unchangeable and obeys universal laws in much the
same way
as the physical universe does.
I think that any advance knowledge of the future is no more
than that,
a knowing. Nothing we can do will change it...whether we know,
or not.
When I was a youth....I was told of a dream. A vivid dream in
which my
brother was hanging from a ladder, impaled on two spikes. It
was so
disturbing, so all-consuming, that the person who had this
vision
charged me with guarding Patrick (my brother) and she begged me
not to
'let him out of my sight'
The ferocity, the conviction of the request was such that I did
just
that. I watched over him carefully.
Two days later we were exploring a bombed out theatre. I was
away from
Patrick for a few minutes...saw he wasn't about and frantically
started to look for him.
I found him nearby. He was impaled, head down, on a steel
emergency
escape ladder with one spike through his head, and the other
through
his chest.
I need say no more I think.
Yes, I don't suspect, I know that a dream can tell the future.
I also
feel certain that having this advanced knowledge will never
alter that
which is to be.
I can't say I am comfortable with that, but the account above
had a
profound impression on the way I think.
I dont bandy the story around. This is probably only the third
or
fourth time I've re-counted it. Why? Because no-one can truly
believe
you. They must have their own experiences to do that.
I wonder. Has anyone else had a similar experience?
That's mine, for whatever it's worth.
Werewolfy
.
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 05:34:35 PM |
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"Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<gs00c.619940$JQ1.385829@pd7tw1no>...
Sorry Wolfy, I don't know what to say.
================================================================================
You do Dan. You always do ;)
Yes, it still haunts me. A very long time ago now, but the events are
so clear.
I suppose I envy you your faith. There's one thing that I've found
common to all men, and that is a belief, a feeling that there must be
something more to life...some 'raison d'etre'
You have probably seen that I travel rather a lot Dan. I have always
been restless, always enquiring. No answers yet though!
Ooops, my guard is down tonight. The paxil is working quite well. No,
it's not just that, it's the sincerity of your post that is touching.
My lack of belief in divinity is too strong, unshakeable. That's a
long story involving a strict 1950's Catholic childhood schooling,
filled with pomp and hypocrisy. Those nuns that 'taught' me have much
to answer for!
=========
That======= is a way of saying that 30 minutes have past since my last
sentence, 30 minutes of looking for the right words.
I couldn't find them, and those defences are back in place!
All I know is that if any God exists, He would be proud of you. You
have a way with words, and a unshakeable belief that is to be admired
and respected. From deep within my self-constructed fortress, I can
just say....Thanks Dan. I listen closely.
I don't agree......but neither do I disagree;)
I have rarely seen such sincerity in a person. Thanks again.
Werewolfy
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| User: "Dan" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
29 Feb 2004 12:51:39 AM |
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I have rarely seen such sincerity in a person. Thanks again.
Werewolfy
"Those who are stupid, but deem themselves wise nonetheless will
try to instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the
sword or be burned or captured or plundered, or flamed in
newsgroups. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help,
and *many who are not sincere*, much like myself, will join them.
35 Some of the dimwits will stumble, so that they may be refined,
purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will
still come at the appointed time.
28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled
by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to
myself. But eventually I came home, kicked the dog, pulled up in
an an armchair, grabbed the wife and a Molson's and said,
'Alrighty then'...."
Sincerity. Thanks for telling me that. I seem to have a problem
with that bit.
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| User: "Dan" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 05:04:25 AM |
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"cesar" wrote;
"Dan" wrote;
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Dan,
Here's the answer to your question, using quantum mechanic.
http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/ardlouis/dissipative/Schrcat.html
Let me know if you need an explanation of this.
cesar
Dear cesar,
While God may, or may not play dice with the universe, I'd rather
doubt He'd do so with our very souls, which an omniscient Creator
is 'always' observing in any case. Regards.
Dan
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| User: "cesar" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 07:47:22 AM |
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"Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ZA_%b.637077$X%5.250397@pd7tw2no...
"cesar" wrote;
"Dan" wrote;
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be
added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
Dan,
Here's the answer to your question, using quantum mechanic.
http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/ardlouis/dissipative/Schrcat.html
Let me know if you need an explanation of this.
cesar
Dear cesar,
While God may, or may not play dice with the universe, I'd rather
doubt He'd do so with our very souls, which an omniscient Creator
is 'always' observing in any case. Regards.
Dan
Schroedinger's (Uncertainty) Principle is about probability, not
pre-determination. The Uncertainty Principle means that the outcome does
not exist until it is observed. In other words, there is nothing written
in the Book of Life until it is opened. Only God knows if your name will
be written in it or not, because to God, all things are the present. The
Book itself is only a book of 'probabilities' and the probability of your
name in it or not is totally up to you, in the true meaning of 'free will'.
Even the angels (including Satan) don't know the future and Satan thinks he
could get away with it and he'll still try, because of the Uncertainty
Principle.
cesar
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
05 Mar 2004 12:44:09 AM |
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"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<40409beb$1_2@127.0.0.1>...
Schroedinger's (Uncertainty) Principle is about probability, not
pre-determination. The Uncertainty Principle means that the outcome does
not exist until it is observed. In other words, there is nothing written
in the Book of Life until it is opened. Only God knows if your name will
be written in it or not, because to God, all things are the present. The
Book itself is only a book of 'probabilities' and the probability of your
name in it or not is totally up to you, in the true meaning of 'free will'.
Even the angels (including Satan) don't know the future and Satan thinks he
could get away with it and he'll still try, because of the Uncertainty
Principle.
cesar
Reminds me of a PhD level Theory of Computation course where the
question for homework was "If God knew everything, would he know this.
Prove it."
Touche' cesar
Bill
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| User: "Dan" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 12:30:39 PM |
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"cesar" wrote;
Dear cesar,
While God may, or may not play dice with the universe, I'd
rather
doubt He'd do so with our very souls, which an omniscient
Creator
is 'always' observing in any case. Regards.
Dan
Schroedinger's (Uncertainty) Principle is about probability,
not
pre-determination. The Uncertainty Principle means that the
outcome does
not exist until it is observed. In other words, there is
nothing written
in the Book of Life until it is opened. Only God knows if
your name will
be written in it or not, because to God, all things are the
present. The
Book itself is only a book of 'probabilities' and the
probability of your
name in it or not is totally up to you, in the true meaning of
'free will'.
Even the angels (including Satan) don't know the future and
Satan thinks he
could get away with it and he'll still try, because of the
Uncertainty
Principle.
cesar
cesar, you have managed to confuse, and scare me in a much
different way than ever before. Good job. Just another
misunderstood genius, I swear.
.
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| User: "cesar" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 01:37:17 PM |
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"Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:j750c.621522$JQ1.383955@pd7tw1no...
"cesar" wrote;
Dear cesar,
While God may, or may not play dice with the universe, I'd
rather
doubt He'd do so with our very souls, which an omniscient
Creator
is 'always' observing in any case. Regards.
Dan
Schroedinger's (Uncertainty) Principle is about probability,
not
pre-determination. The Uncertainty Principle means that the
outcome does
not exist until it is observed. In other words, there is
nothing written
in the Book of Life until it is opened. Only God knows if
your name will
be written in it or not, because to God, all things are the
present. The
Book itself is only a book of 'probabilities' and the
probability of your
name in it or not is totally up to you, in the true meaning of
'free will'.
Even the angels (including Satan) don't know the future and
Satan thinks he
could get away with it and he'll still try, because of the
Uncertainty
Principle.
cesar
cesar, you have managed to confuse, and scare me in a much
different way than ever before.
Why is it confusing, Dan? Nothing can be taken for granted. In the quantum
universe, everything is in a state of flux until observed. In other words,
reality does not exist on or by itself in any predetermined fashion. It
becomes real only when you perceive it (locked into Time); hence Creation
is a constant occurance simultaneous with Consciousness. I recomend a book
entitled "The World Treasury of Physics, Astronomy and Mathematics" edited
by Timothy Ferris. It will give you a good insight into metaphysics. You
don't need to have a science background to understand it.
So, when Christ said - 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed
in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - it
means that all names start out as being potentially in the book of life. If
a name was to have been blotted out because there was a judgment, 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were
opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead
were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according
to their works. - Jesus Christ will not blot out that name from the book of
life but he will be your advocate before God and the angels IF you overcome
the beast/Antichrist during the 42 months of tribulation, Like I said to
you in an earlier post, Dan, if you overcome, your name will remain on the
guest list. So there is no pre-ordainment. However, there is the certitude
of the prophecy and the purpose of it is to warn/prepare us.
cesar
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http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 06:43:09 AM |
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In article <E8W%b.635043$X%5.465289@pd7tw2no>, "Dan" <twotrickpony@shaw.ca> wrote:
Is there truly a 'Book of Life' from which no names can be added,
or subtracted to that which is pre-written?
Discuss...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you, which
is not the case. You are provided with opportunities and your choices determine
what comes next. That and the fact that time is not linear as we experience it
makes this something of a yes-and-no answer. No, in that your choices are not
made for you, yes in that there is some known consequences for choices (think in
terms of: when you throw an apple up into the air, it's "preordained" to fall
back to the ground due to gravity) and, again, time is not linear as we
experience it, so some things are occuring simultaneously (for wont of a better
term) even though we experience them in sequence.
Woods
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 02:11:17 PM |
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(Woodswun) wrote in message news:<x100c.95853$%72.21065@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you,
Woods
How do you come up with that logic? If one is pre-ordained to go to
work Monday morning, is it not him or her than makes that decision (
if that person of course lives in a free society) to do so? I agree
that this can be a paradox, yet, these imply two different levels of
understanding. One that it was ordained long ago (or really perpetual)
, and two that you are the one who made the decision, albeit that you
live in a free society and are not a slave forced to go to work by the
hand of another.
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 04:05:03 PM |
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In article <dd3256f0.0402281211.cf6904@posting.google.com>, (Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun) wrote in message
news:<x100c.95853$%72.21065@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you,
Woods
How do you come up with that logic? If one is pre-ordained to go to
work Monday morning, is it not him or her than makes that decision (
if that person of course lives in a free society) to do so? I agree
that this can be a paradox, yet, these imply two different levels of
understanding. One that it was ordained long ago (or really perpetual)
, and two that you are the one who made the decision, albeit that you
live in a free society and are not a slave forced to go to work by the
hand of another.
"Preordained" as in before you were born, became educated, and decided to get a
job in which you are expected to work on Monday.
Woods
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 11:10:33 PM |
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(Woodswun) wrote in message news:<jg80c.51731$um1.8870@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <dd3256f0.0402281211.cf6904@posting.google.com>, (Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote:
(Woodswun) wrote in message
news:<x100c.95853$%72.21065@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you,
Woods
How do you come up with that logic? If one is pre-ordained to go to
work Monday morning, is it not him or her than makes that decision (
if that person of course lives in a free society) to do so? I agree
that this can be a paradox, yet, these imply two different levels of
understanding. One that it was ordained long ago (or really perpetual)
, and two that you are the one who made the decision, albeit that you
live in a free society and are not a slave forced to go to work by the
hand of another.
"Preordained" as in before you were born, became educated, and decided to get a
job in which you are expected to work on Monday.
Woods
Viola. d'accord...If I told you that all of historical life was
Preordained, then could you tell me how people were unhappy about this
situation because they a) already knew the future and thus were not
surprised anymore (b) unhappy they had no free will in their decisions
that someone else is guiding them? (c) they felt that they had no hand
in their own destinies?
If I told you that 'Free Will' and 'Predestination' are all part of
one process, in life, both working at the same time could you handle
it if it was the truth ( reality)?
.
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
02 Mar 2004 06:46:10 PM |
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(Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote in message news:<dd3256f0.0402282110.10cc6929@posting.google.com>...
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun) wrote in message news:<jg80c.51731$um1.8870@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <dd3256f0.0402281211.cf6904@posting.google.com>, (Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun) wrote in message
news:<x100c.95853$%72.21065@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you,
Woods
How do you come up with that logic? If one is pre-ordained to go to
work Monday morning, is it not him or her than makes that decision (
if that person of course lives in a free society) to do so? I agree
that this can be a paradox, yet, these imply two different levels of
understanding. One that it was ordained long ago (or really perpetual)
, and two that you are the one who made the decision, albeit that you
live in a free society and are not a slave forced to go to work by the
hand of another.
"Preordained" as in before you were born, became educated, and decided to get a
job in which you are expected to work on Monday.
Woods
Viola. d'accord...If I told you that all of historical life was
Preordained, then could you tell me how people were unhappy about this
situation because they a) already knew the future and thus were not
surprised anymore (b) unhappy they had no free will in their decisions
that someone else is guiding them? (c) they felt that they had no hand
in their own destinies?
If I told you that 'Free Will' and 'Predestination' are all part of
one process, in life, both working at the same time could you handle
it if it was the truth ( reality)?
History can include free will and predestination. At some times,
someone can cry out the truth and be ignored and branded as a loon or
get persecuted for going against the order.
A paradigm shift occurs when societies see their ignorance en mass and
move towards the truth however slowly and or steadily. Retrogression
can work the same way. Catalysts for change are necessary, as Hogue
states. Then societies say 'oh yeah, how were we so stupid not to see
that'. Individuals are powerless, free will notwithstanding, if no one
believes them. Also, kooks with falsehoods abound, so the truth
tellers can be tossed in the same category with the deluded.
Predestination is possible. But there are many false prophecies out
there, and even true visions of the future can be misinterpreted by
even the seer. Therefore societies march on in ignorance, until enough
catalysts make the truth clear enough for societies to assimilate the
truth. Societies are sluggish. That's why an individual's free will
might not make a difference whatsoever in changing destiny. But when
emergencies threaten the world's survival, societies may look for
answers. The truth might get through, even though there would be many
with false answers which cloud the truth.
.
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| User: "DaarkSyde" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
29 Feb 2004 06:06:31 AM |
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On 28 Feb 2004 21:10:33 -0800, (Michael
Johnathan McDonald) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun) wrote in message news:<jg80c.51731$um1.8870@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <dd3256f0.0402281211.cf6904@posting.google.com>, (Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun) wrote in message
news:<x100c.95853$%72.21065@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you,
Woods
How do you come up with that logic? If one is pre-ordained to go to
work Monday morning, is it not him or her than makes that decision (
if that person of course lives in a free society) to do so? I agree
that this can be a paradox, yet, these imply two different levels of
understanding. One that it was ordained long ago (or really perpetual)
, and two that you are the one who made the decision, albeit that you
live in a free society and are not a slave forced to go to work by the
hand of another.
"Preordained" as in before you were born, became educated, and decided to get a
job in which you are expected to work on Monday.
Woods
Viola. d'accord...If I told you that all of historical life was
Preordained, then could you tell me how people were unhappy about this
situation because they a) already knew the future and thus were not
surprised anymore (b) unhappy they had no free will in their decisions
that someone else is guiding them? (c) they felt that they had no hand
in their own destinies?
If I told you that 'Free Will' and 'Predestination' are all part of
one process, in life, both working at the same time could you handle
it if it was the truth ( reality)?
But what is reality? What is truth? Does anybody really know,or care?
.
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Has God pre-ordained your choice for Hell? |
28 Feb 2004 02:11:18 PM |
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(Woodswun) wrote in message news:<x100c.95853$%72.21065@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
"Pre-ordained" implies that someone else is making your decisions for you,
Woods
How do you come up with that logic? If one is pre-ordained to go to
work Monday morning, is it not him or her than makes that decision (
if that person of course lives in a free society) to do so? I agree
that this can be a paradox, yet, these imply two different levels of
understanding. One that it was ordained long ago (or really perpetual)
, and two that you are the one who made the decision, albeit that you
live in a free society and are not a slave forced to go to work by the
hand of another.
.
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