Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious war
medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze
Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in Vietnam. It's
an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that raises questions on
its face.
For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever missing a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the accounts and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some records.
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple Hearts during
only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in Vietnam. "Most
of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got but never
accepted Purple Hearts for them."
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting descriptions
in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on March 13, 1969. It
was the commendations he earned that day — a Bronze Star and a third Purple
Heart — that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of Vietnam and into a desk
job eight months before his tour expired.
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry "suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a
mine detonated close aboard" his boat.
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing about arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said Charles Kaufman,
a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military award
requests.
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury he did not
receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I wonder if he
would have been given this medal for bravery?"
"They don't quite jibe," said James W. Doran, national service director of
the advocacy group American Veterans. But he did not fault Mr. Kerry.
"Somebody up the command flowered it up," Mr. Doran said. "They just made
it pretty for somebody's signature."
Several requests for comment were not returned by the Kerry campaign
yesterday.
During Mr. Kerry's relatively short tour in Vietnam, he racked up a
stunning record, based on the documents released by the campaign yesterday.
All of his performance evaluations rated him first or nearly first among
his peers, and no evidence suggests he ever missed duty because of illness or
injuries. He was credited with killing 20 enemy fighters.
"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and experience, Ens
Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question
one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Mr. Kerry's commanding
superior aboard the USS Gridley before going into combat.
But some veterans say his record is too good to be true.
"Superhuman" is how Ray Waller, a combat medic in the Marines, described
Mr. Kerry's record of awards.
"I don't remember anybody getting three Purple Hearts and leaving, even
within six or eight months," said Mr. Waller, who as a medic was responsible
for determining whether injuries warranted Purple Hearts. "And if they did, it
was very, very rare — not to mention the Silver Star and the Bronze Star."
He also was surprised that Mr. Kerry never missed duty for the wounds that
earned him Purple Hearts. Although Mr. Kerry has said one of the injuries
caused him to lose two days of service, there is no evidence he ever lost time
for any injuries.
"If he's got shrapnel in his buttocks, he's going to lose time," Mr. Waller
said. "It would be impossible to have three wounds and never have a loss of
time."
Though the campaign released more than 120 pages of Navy records yesterday,
Mr. Kerry still refused to release medical records that more thoroughly
describe the injuries.
Among the records that the campaign will not release is any explanation for
the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's first Purple Heart, less than a month
after going into combat.
Although the campaign won't release one document, called a "Sick Call
Treatment Record," officials allowed the Associated Press to view it earlier
this week. It said: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and
appl[ied] bacitracin dressing. Ret[urned] to duty."
"If it only required bacitracin and a Band-Aid, it sounds like a piece of
hot shrapnel that was flying around and may not have even broken the skin,"
said Mr. Waller, adding that he'd never heard of a shrapnel injury that didn't
require a tetanus shot and time off leading to a Purple Heart.
It was Mr. Kerry's first injury that already is the source of serious
questions raised by his commanding officer at the time, Grant Hibbard.
Mr. Hibbard declined requests yesterday to be interviewed by The Washington
Times, but he told the Boston Globe that Mr. Kerry's injuries were too minor to
qualify for a Purple Heart.
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of
shrapnel," Mr. Hibbard said. "People in the office were saying, 'I don't think
we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his
palm."
But Mr. Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Mr. Hibbard told the
Globe, he dropped the matter.
"I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Mr. Hibbard
said. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever you want.'
After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know
how."
One possible reason why Mr. Kerry racked up so many battle awards in such a
short period of time might be the command structure. Because awards are
generally recommended by superiors, Mr. Kerry's bosses would have relied on
accounts of the action from Mr. Kerry and his underling crew mates.
And because injuries warranting Purple Hearts are verified by medics — or
corpsmen — it would have been a soldier inferior to Mr. Kerry who was in
charge of determining the seriousness of his injuries.
"If the commander walks up to the corpsman and says, 'I'm wounded,' " said
Mr. Waller, "his corpsman isn't going to say it's just a scratch, he's going to
say 'OK.' "
.
|
|
| User: "dreamwalker" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
25 Apr 2004 11:25:14 PM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040423094655.26631.00000196@mb-m29.aol.com...
Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious war
medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze
Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in Vietnam. It's
an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that raises questions on
its face.
For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever missing a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the accounts and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some records.
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple Hearts during
only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in Vietnam. "Most
of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got but never
accepted Purple Hearts for them."
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting descriptions
in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on March 13, 1969. It
was the commendations he earned that day - a Bronze Star and a third Purple
Heart - that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of Vietnam and into a desk
job eight months before his tour expired.
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry "suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a
mine detonated close aboard" his boat.
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing about arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said Charles Kaufman,
a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military award
requests.
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury he did not
receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I wonder if he
would have been given this medal for bravery?"
"They don't quite jibe," said James W. Doran, national service director of
the advocacy group American Veterans. But he did not fault Mr. Kerry.
"Somebody up the command flowered it up," Mr. Doran said. "They just made
it pretty for somebody's signature."
Several requests for comment were not returned by the Kerry campaign
yesterday.
During Mr. Kerry's relatively short tour in Vietnam, he racked up a
stunning record, based on the documents released by the campaign yesterday.
All of his performance evaluations rated him first or nearly first among
his peers, and no evidence suggests he ever missed duty because of illness or
injuries. He was credited with killing 20 enemy fighters.
"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and experience, Ens
Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question
one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Mr. Kerry's commanding
superior aboard the USS Gridley before going into combat.
But some veterans say his record is too good to be true.
"Superhuman" is how Ray Waller, a combat medic in the Marines, described
Mr. Kerry's record of awards.
"I don't remember anybody getting three Purple Hearts and leaving, even
within six or eight months," said Mr. Waller, who as a medic was responsible
for determining whether injuries warranted Purple Hearts. "And if they did, it
was very, very rare - not to mention the Silver Star and the Bronze Star."
He also was surprised that Mr. Kerry never missed duty for the wounds that
earned him Purple Hearts. Although Mr. Kerry has said one of the injuries
caused him to lose two days of service, there is no evidence he ever lost time
for any injuries.
"If he's got shrapnel in his buttocks, he's going to lose time," Mr. Waller
said. "It would be impossible to have three wounds and never have a loss of
time."
Though the campaign released more than 120 pages of Navy records yesterday,
Mr. Kerry still refused to release medical records that more thoroughly
describe the injuries.
Among the records that the campaign will not release is any explanation for
the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's first Purple Heart, less than a month
after going into combat.
Although the campaign won't release one document, called a "Sick Call
Treatment Record," officials allowed the Associated Press to view it earlier
this week. It said: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and
appl[ied] bacitracin dressing. Ret[urned] to duty."
"If it only required bacitracin and a Band-Aid, it sounds like a piece of
hot shrapnel that was flying around and may not have even broken the skin,"
said Mr. Waller, adding that he'd never heard of a shrapnel injury that didn't
require a tetanus shot and time off leading to a Purple Heart.
It was Mr. Kerry's first injury that already is the source of serious
questions raised by his commanding officer at the time, Grant Hibbard.
Mr. Hibbard declined requests yesterday to be interviewed by The Washington
Times, but he told the Boston Globe that Mr. Kerry's injuries were too minor to
qualify for a Purple Heart.
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of
shrapnel," Mr. Hibbard said. "People in the office were saying, 'I don't think
we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his
palm."
But Mr. Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Mr. Hibbard told the
Globe, he dropped the matter.
"I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Mr. Hibbard
said. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever you want.'
After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know
how."
One possible reason why Mr. Kerry racked up so many battle awards in such a
short period of time might be the command structure. Because awards are
generally recommended by superiors, Mr. Kerry's bosses would have relied on
accounts of the action from Mr. Kerry and his underling crew mates.
And because injuries warranting Purple Hearts are verified by medics - or
corpsmen - it would have been a soldier inferior to Mr. Kerry who was in
charge of determining the seriousness of his injuries.
"If the commander walks up to the corpsman and says, 'I'm wounded,' " said
Mr. Waller, "his corpsman isn't going to say it's just a scratch, he's going to
say 'OK.' "
Kerry is a loser.
.
|
|
|
| User: "WillyWaco" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 03:27:13 AM |
|
|
"dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com> wrote in message =
news:47f45$408c8f31$407628de$31247@powerweb.allthenewsgroups.com...
=20
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040423094655.26631.00000196@mb-m29.aol.com...
Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site =
yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several =
prestigious war
medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star =
and a Bronze
Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in =
Vietnam. It's
an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that raises =
questions on
its face.
For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever =
missing a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the =
accounts and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some =
records.
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple =
Hearts during
only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell =
from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in =
Vietnam. "Most
of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got =
but never
accepted Purple Hearts for them."
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the =
Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting =
descriptions
in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on March 13, =
1969. It
was the commendations he earned that day - a Bronze Star and a third =
Purple
Heart - that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of Vietnam and =
into a desk
job eight months before his tour expired.
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry =
"suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right =
forearm when a
mine detonated close aboard" his boat.
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the =
same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing =
about arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said =
Charles Kaufman,
a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military =
award
requests.
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury =
he did not
receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was =
not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I =
wonder if he
would have been given this medal for bravery?"
"They don't quite jibe," said James W. Doran, national service =
director of
the advocacy group American Veterans. But he did not fault Mr. =
Kerry.
"Somebody up the command flowered it up," Mr. Doran said. "They =
just made
it pretty for somebody's signature."
Several requests for comment were not returned by the Kerry =
campaign
yesterday.
During Mr. Kerry's relatively short tour in Vietnam, he racked =
up a
stunning record, based on the documents released by the campaign =
yesterday.
All of his performance evaluations rated him first or nearly =
first among
his peers, and no evidence suggests he ever missed duty because of =
illness or
injuries. He was credited with killing 20 enemy fighters.
"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and =
experience, Ens
Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and =
without question
one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Mr. Kerry's =
commanding
superior aboard the USS Gridley before going into combat.
But some veterans say his record is too good to be true.
"Superhuman" is how Ray Waller, a combat medic in the Marines, =
described
Mr. Kerry's record of awards.
"I don't remember anybody getting three Purple Hearts and =
leaving, even
within six or eight months," said Mr. Waller, who as a medic was =
responsible
for determining whether injuries warranted Purple Hearts. "And if =
they did, it
was very, very rare - not to mention the Silver Star and the Bronze =
Star."
He also was surprised that Mr. Kerry never missed duty for the =
wounds that
earned him Purple Hearts. Although Mr. Kerry has said one of the =
injuries
caused him to lose two days of service, there is no evidence he ever =
lost time
for any injuries.
"If he's got shrapnel in his buttocks, he's going to lose time," =
Mr. Waller
said. "It would be impossible to have three wounds and never have a =
loss of
time."
Though the campaign released more than 120 pages of Navy records =
yesterday,
Mr. Kerry still refused to release medical records that more =
thoroughly
describe the injuries.
Among the records that the campaign will not release is any =
explanation for
the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's first Purple Heart, less than a =
month
after going into combat.
Although the campaign won't release one document, called a "Sick =
Call
Treatment Record," officials allowed the Associated Press to view it =
earlier
this week. It said: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel =
removed and
appl[ied] bacitracin dressing. Ret[urned] to duty."
"If it only required bacitracin and a Band-Aid, it sounds like a =
piece of
hot shrapnel that was flying around and may not have even broken the =
skin,"
said Mr. Waller, adding that he'd never heard of a shrapnel injury =
that didn't
require a tetanus shot and time off leading to a Purple Heart.
It was Mr. Kerry's first injury that already is the source of =
serious
questions raised by his commanding officer at the time, Grant =
Hibbard.
Mr. Hibbard declined requests yesterday to be interviewed by The =
Washington
Times, but he told the Boston Globe that Mr. Kerry's injuries were =
too minor to
qualify for a Purple Heart.
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a =
piece of
shrapnel," Mr. Hibbard said. "People in the office were saying, 'I =
don't think
we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of =
shrapnel in his
palm."
But Mr. Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Mr. Hibbard =
told the
Globe, he dropped the matter.
"I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," =
Mr. Hibbard
said. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever =
you want.'
After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I =
don't know
how."
One possible reason why Mr. Kerry racked up so many battle =
awards in such a
short period of time might be the command structure. Because awards =
are
generally recommended by superiors, Mr. Kerry's bosses would have =
relied on
accounts of the action from Mr. Kerry and his underling crew mates.
And because injuries warranting Purple Hearts are verified by =
medics - or
corpsmen - it would have been a soldier inferior to Mr. Kerry who =
was in
charge of determining the seriousness of his injuries.
"If the commander walks up to the corpsman and says, 'I'm =
wounded,' " said
Mr. Waller, "his corpsman isn't going to say it's just a scratch, =
he's going to
say 'OK.' "
=20
Kerry is a loser.
Aaaaah. Is that the BEST you can utter out of your tiny brain, buddy? =
Kerry is a loser...wow, what a profound, insightful and powerful =
statement!=20
Look, diddlehead, I'm no great Kerry supporter, and frankly I don't like =
rich elitist kids playing Prez and Commander-in-Chief, nor do I like =
this lousy selection every four years between two corporate-fed party =
headliners, BUT, if that's the only viable choice we middle-class fucks =
have to choose from, I'd pick the guy who had:
1) Long-time national political experience.
2) Highly intelligent and a better than average educational background.=20
3) REAL military command experience under fire and a determination to =
continue in battle.
4) Articulate, able to pronounce his words clearly, understandable =
phraseology and able to stay on the subject matter.
5) A wide ranging knowledge of educational, environmental, =
infrastructural (etc.) knowledge and experience (in various committees).
You, sir, dungwalker, are certainly free to choose the other guy in =
November, your glorious "winner."=20
Willy=20
4)=20
=20
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "WillyWaco" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
25 Apr 2004 01:19:21 PM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:20040423094655.26631.00000196@mb-m29.aol.com...
Records on medals spark questions
=20
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
=20
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site =
yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several =
prestigious war
medals and whether he deserved them.=20
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and =
a Bronze
Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in =
Vietnam. It's
an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that raises =
questions on
its face.=20
=20
For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever =
missing a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the =
accounts and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some =
records.=20
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple =
Hearts during
only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in =
Vietnam. "Most
of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got =
but never
accepted Purple Hearts for them."=20
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the =
Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting =
descriptions
in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on March 13, =
1969. It
was the commendations he earned that day =E2=80=94 a Bronze Star and a =
third Purple
Heart =E2=80=94 that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of Vietnam =
and into a desk
job eight months before his tour expired.=20
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry =
"suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right =
forearm when a
mine detonated close aboard" his boat.=20
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the =
same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing about =
arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.=20
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said Charles =
Kaufman,
a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military =
award
requests.=20
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury =
he did not
receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I =
wonder if he
would have been given this medal for bravery?"=20
"They don't quite jibe," said James W. Doran, national service =
director of
the advocacy group American Veterans. But he did not fault Mr. Kerry.=20
"Somebody up the command flowered it up," Mr. Doran said. "They =
just made
it pretty for somebody's signature."=20
Several requests for comment were not returned by the Kerry =
campaign
yesterday.=20
During Mr. Kerry's relatively short tour in Vietnam, he racked up =
a
stunning record, based on the documents released by the campaign =
yesterday.=20
All of his performance evaluations rated him first or nearly first =
among
his peers, and no evidence suggests he ever missed duty because of =
illness or
injuries. He was credited with killing 20 enemy fighters.=20
"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and =
experience, Ens
Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without =
question
one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Mr. Kerry's =
commanding
superior aboard the USS Gridley before going into combat.=20
But some veterans say his record is too good to be true.=20
"Superhuman" is how Ray Waller, a combat medic in the Marines, =
described
Mr. Kerry's record of awards.=20
"I don't remember anybody getting three Purple Hearts and leaving, =
even
within six or eight months," said Mr. Waller, who as a medic was =
responsible
for determining whether injuries warranted Purple Hearts. "And if they =
did, it
was very, very rare =E2=80=94 not to mention the Silver Star and the =
Bronze Star."=20
He also was surprised that Mr. Kerry never missed duty for the =
wounds that
earned him Purple Hearts. Although Mr. Kerry has said one of the =
injuries
caused him to lose two days of service, there is no evidence he ever =
lost time
for any injuries.=20
"If he's got shrapnel in his buttocks, he's going to lose time," =
Mr. Waller
said. "It would be impossible to have three wounds and never have a =
loss of
time."=20
Though the campaign released more than 120 pages of Navy records =
yesterday,
Mr. Kerry still refused to release medical records that more =
thoroughly
describe the injuries.=20
Among the records that the campaign will not release is any =
explanation for
the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's first Purple Heart, less than a =
month
after going into combat.=20
Although the campaign won't release one document, called a "Sick =
Call
Treatment Record," officials allowed the Associated Press to view it =
earlier
this week. It said: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel =
removed and
appl[ied] bacitracin dressing. Ret[urned] to duty."=20
"If it only required bacitracin and a Band-Aid, it sounds like a =
piece of
hot shrapnel that was flying around and may not have even broken the =
skin,"
said Mr. Waller, adding that he'd never heard of a shrapnel injury =
that didn't
require a tetanus shot and time off leading to a Purple Heart.=20
It was Mr. Kerry's first injury that already is the source of =
serious
questions raised by his commanding officer at the time, Grant Hibbard. =
Mr. Hibbard declined requests yesterday to be interviewed by The =
Washington
Times, but he told the Boston Globe that Mr. Kerry's injuries were too =
minor to
qualify for a Purple Heart.=20
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a =
piece of
shrapnel," Mr. Hibbard said. "People in the office were saying, 'I =
don't think
we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of =
shrapnel in his
palm."=20
But Mr. Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Mr. Hibbard =
told the
Globe, he dropped the matter.=20
"I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Mr. =
Hibbard
said. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever =
you want.'
After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't =
know
how."=20
One possible reason why Mr. Kerry racked up so many battle awards =
in such a
short period of time might be the command structure. Because awards =
are
generally recommended by superiors, Mr. Kerry's bosses would have =
relied on
accounts of the action from Mr. Kerry and his underling crew mates.=20
And because injuries warranting Purple Hearts are verified by =
medics =E2=80=94 or
corpsmen =E2=80=94 it would have been a soldier inferior to Mr. Kerry =
who was in
charge of determining the seriousness of his injuries.=20
"If the commander walks up to the corpsman and says, 'I'm =
wounded,' " said
Mr. Waller, "his corpsman isn't going to say it's just a scratch, he's =
going to
say 'OK.' "=20
=20
A very strong feeling of desperation within neocon circles is prevalent =
these days as Bush's popularity and support for his illegitimate wars =
are waning. No matter what questions are raised about Kerry, they're =
immediately negated by even more disturbing questions about Bush's =
military and (now) public service. Remember: Bush himself is on record =
saying he didn't want to serve in Nam, but that he supported the war. A =
brave soul, deeply committed to defending his country. *****!
Yeah, right, he supported the war from thousands of miles away, flying =
loop-de-loops in his F102 over Texas.=20
Playboy, drunk, cokehead, failed businessman, average "c" student...it's =
not a pretty picture.=20
Dwight Eisenhower didn't go around in his military uniform during his 8 =
years in office, and he sure as hell had more going for him in his =
record and in his intellect than you neocon's arrogant, dimwitted =
showboat.=20
If you creeps and idiots can't find a more qualified, intelligent, and =
mature leader than dumb-*****, chickenshit and lying Dubya, then it just =
shows how far down the sewer line politics has gone.=20
Willy
.
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| User: "Ex" |
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| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
25 Apr 2004 05:50:57 PM |
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"WillyWaco" <g-ray52@excite.com> wrote in message
news:c6gvfb0294u@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040423094655.26631.00000196@mb-m29.aol.com...
Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious
war
medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a
Bronze
Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in Vietnam.
It's
an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that raises questions
on
its face.
For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever missing
a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the accounts
and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some records.
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple Hearts
during
only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in Vietnam.
"Most
of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got but
never
accepted Purple Hearts for them."
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the
Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting
descriptions
in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on March 13, 1969.
It
was the commendations he earned that day - a Bronze Star and a third
Purple
Heart - that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of Vietnam and into a
desk
job eight months before his tour expired.
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry "suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm
when a
mine detonated close aboard" his boat.
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing about arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said Charles
Kaufman,
a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military award
requests.
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury he
did not
receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I wonder
if he
would have been given this medal for bravery?"
"They don't quite jibe," said James W. Doran, national service
director of
the advocacy group American Veterans. But he did not fault Mr. Kerry.
"Somebody up the command flowered it up," Mr. Doran said. "They just
made
it pretty for somebody's signature."
Several requests for comment were not returned by the Kerry campaign
yesterday.
During Mr. Kerry's relatively short tour in Vietnam, he racked up a
stunning record, based on the documents released by the campaign
yesterday.
All of his performance evaluations rated him first or nearly first
among
his peers, and no evidence suggests he ever missed duty because of illness
or
injuries. He was credited with killing 20 enemy fighters.
"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and
experience, Ens
Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without
question
one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Mr. Kerry's
commanding
superior aboard the USS Gridley before going into combat.
But some veterans say his record is too good to be true.
"Superhuman" is how Ray Waller, a combat medic in the Marines,
described
Mr. Kerry's record of awards.
"I don't remember anybody getting three Purple Hearts and leaving,
even
within six or eight months," said Mr. Waller, who as a medic was
responsible
for determining whether injuries warranted Purple Hearts. "And if they
did, it
was very, very rare - not to mention the Silver Star and the Bronze Star."
He also was surprised that Mr. Kerry never missed duty for the wounds
that
earned him Purple Hearts. Although Mr. Kerry has said one of the injuries
caused him to lose two days of service, there is no evidence he ever lost
time
for any injuries.
"If he's got shrapnel in his buttocks, he's going to lose time," Mr.
Waller
said. "It would be impossible to have three wounds and never have a loss
of
time."
Though the campaign released more than 120 pages of Navy records
yesterday,
Mr. Kerry still refused to release medical records that more thoroughly
describe the injuries.
Among the records that the campaign will not release is any
explanation for
the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's first Purple Heart, less than a month
after going into combat.
Although the campaign won't release one document, called a "Sick Call
Treatment Record," officials allowed the Associated Press to view it
earlier
this week. It said: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed
and
appl[ied] bacitracin dressing. Ret[urned] to duty."
"If it only required bacitracin and a Band-Aid, it sounds like a piece
of
hot shrapnel that was flying around and may not have even broken the
skin,"
said Mr. Waller, adding that he'd never heard of a shrapnel injury that
didn't
require a tetanus shot and time off leading to a Purple Heart.
It was Mr. Kerry's first injury that already is the source of serious
questions raised by his commanding officer at the time, Grant Hibbard.
Mr. Hibbard declined requests yesterday to be interviewed by The
Washington
Times, but he told the Boston Globe that Mr. Kerry's injuries were too
minor to
qualify for a Purple Heart.
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of
shrapnel," Mr. Hibbard said. "People in the office were saying, 'I don't
think
we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in
his
palm."
But Mr. Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Mr. Hibbard told
the
Globe, he dropped the matter.
"I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Mr.
Hibbard
said. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever you
want.'
After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know
how."
One possible reason why Mr. Kerry racked up so many battle awards in
such a
short period of time might be the command structure. Because awards are
generally recommended by superiors, Mr. Kerry's bosses would have relied
on
accounts of the action from Mr. Kerry and his underling crew mates.
And because injuries warranting Purple Hearts are verified by medics -
or
corpsmen - it would have been a soldier inferior to Mr. Kerry who was in
charge of determining the seriousness of his injuries.
"If the commander walks up to the corpsman and says, 'I'm wounded,' "
said
Mr. Waller, "his corpsman isn't going to say it's just a scratch, he's
going to
say 'OK.' "
A very strong feeling of desperation within neocon circles is prevalent
these days as Bush's popularity and support for his illegitimate wars are
waning. No matter what questions are raised about Kerry, they're immediately
negated by even more disturbing questions about Bush's military and (now)
public service. Remember: Bush himself is on record saying he didn't want to
serve in Nam, but that he supported the war. A brave soul, deeply committed
to defending his country. *****!
Yeah, right, he supported the war from thousands of miles away, flying
loop-de-loops in his F102 over Texas.
Playboy, drunk, cokehead, failed businessman, average "c" student...it's not
a pretty picture.
Dwight Eisenhower didn't go around in his military uniform during his 8
years in office, and he sure as hell had more going for him in his record
and in his intellect than you neocon's arrogant, dimwitted showboat.
If you creeps and idiots can't find a more qualified, intelligent, and
mature leader than dumb-*****, chickenshit and lying Dubya, then it just shows
how far down the sewer line politics has gone.
Willy
- Hear! Hear! Perfect!
---
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
23 Apr 2004 05:41:36 PM |
|
|
In article <20040423094655.26631.00000196@mb-m29.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious war
medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze
Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in Vietnam. It's
an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that raises questions on
its face.
For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever missing a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the accounts and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some records.
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple Hearts during
only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in Vietnam. "Most
of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got but never
accepted Purple Hearts for them."
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting descriptions
in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on March 13, 1969. It
was the commendations he earned that day — a Bronze Star and a third Purple
Heart — that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of Vietnam and into a desk
job eight months before his tour expired.
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry "suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a
mine detonated close aboard" his boat.
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing about arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said Charles Kaufman,
a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military award
requests.
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury he did not
receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I wonder if he
would have been given this medal for bravery?"
Interesting. The news report that I read indicated that shrapnel was removed
from his arm, which would necessarily have broken the skin.
In any case, those who served with him, with the exception of a single Bush
supporter, all vouch for his service record and earning all medals accorded him.
(and the lone Bush supporter only questions his "leadership" and the first of 3
purple hearts he got).
Woods
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
24 Apr 2004 06:36:18 AM |
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|
"*****, I cut myself shaving again, that makes 3 Purple Hearts, now I can go
home and join the anti-war movement and lie before Congress." (John Kerry)
.
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| User: "WH" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
25 Apr 2004 06:35:24 AM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:20040424073618.21890.00000182@mb-m23.aol.com...
"*****, I cut myself shaving again, that makes 3 Purple Hearts, now I can
go
home and join the anti-war movement and lie before Congress." (John Kerry)
Now there's a man with intelligence...vote him in as pressie won't you.
The monkey's been there too long...
WH
.
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| User: "Ex" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
24 Apr 2004 09:11:55 PM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040424073618.21890.00000182@mb-m23.aol.com...
"*****, I cut myself shaving again, that makes 3 Purple Hearts, now I can
go
home and join the anti-war movement and lie before Congress." (John Kerry)
Having a tough time admitting that the Dem's have a *real* war hero compared
to the Repub's fake one?
.
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| User: "Grantland" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
24 Apr 2004 06:47:57 AM |
|
|
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
"*****, I cut myself shaving again, that makes 3 Purple Hearts, now I can go
home and join the anti-war movement and lie before Congress." (John Kerry)
Who cares? His name is not Bu$h. People need to be shot. TRAITORS!@
Grantland
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
24 Apr 2004 10:36:39 AM |
|
|
In article <20040424073618.21890.00000182@mb-m23.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
"*****, I cut myself shaving again, that makes 3 Purple Hearts, now I can go
home and join the anti-war movement and lie before Congress." (John Kerry)
Um .... his medals all had confirmation from witnesses to his injuries. But, I
do find it rather telling that Bushies are very quick to condemn and cheapen a
war hero's medals for wounds and valor when their own "hero" tucked his tail
between his legs at the mere suggestion of drug testing in a non-functioning
unit. Kerry went in under enemy fire to rescue one of his men - Bush used his
Daddy's strings to volunteer in a unit that didn't care if he was AWOL or not.
Woods
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 04:49:44 AM |
|
|
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to rescue >one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier and shot him in the back.
Tony
.
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| User: "Ex" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 09:12:23 AM |
|
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040426054944.05832.00000056@mb-m03.aol.com...
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to rescue >one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier and shot him in the back.
Tony
And what would you have done ( assuming this is true )?
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 06:49:45 PM |
|
|
In article <20040426054944.05832.00000056@mb-m03.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
If they'd disputed them, they wouldn't have confirmed them.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to rescue >one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier and shot him in the back.
Tell it to the guy whose life he saved.
Woods
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
27 Apr 2004 07:52:03 AM |
|
|
wrote:
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
If they'd disputed them, they wouldn't >have confirmed them.
Wrong.
As CO Kerry filled out his own papers.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to >>>rescue one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier >>and shot him in the back.
Tell it to the guy whose life he saved.
Woods
That is a false tale, they interviewed men who were there, Kerry did not save
anyones life, he persued and killed a fleeing man, shooting him in the back.
Tony
.
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| User: "WillyWaco" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
27 Apr 2004 09:24:07 AM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:20040427085203.10326.00000405@mb-m03.aol.com...
wrote:
=20
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his =
injuries.=20
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
=20
If they'd disputed them, they wouldn't >have confirmed them. =20
=20
Wrong.
=20
As CO Kerry filled out his own papers.
=20
Kerry went in under enemy fire to >>>rescue one of his men
=20
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier >>and shot him in the back.
=20
Tell it to the guy whose life he saved.
=20
Woods
=20
That is a false tale, they interviewed men who were there, Kerry did =
not save
anyones life, he persued and killed a fleeing man, shooting him in the =
back.
=20
Tony
And whose lives did Capt. Bushmeat save while flying the friendly skies =
of Texas? I suppose you wouldn't have shot a terrorist or "insurgent" in =
the back in Iraq or Afghanistan now, would ya? Nah...those Islamic =
terrorists which you've repeatedly said should all be killed, well, =
you'd just keep yelling "halt! and turn around, damn it!" as you chased =
the guy over the dunes until he ran out of breath, or you ran out. On =
the other hand, if he'd escaped, he'd more than likely shoot you =
anywhere on your body to kill or wound you, fella. And what about all =
grenades where you don't have a choice which side of the body the =
shrapnel hits ? Or, aerial bombing? If were gonna' go to bloody fucking =
war hell, might as well have a sense of fair play in murdering people, =
right? Like in the Old West, no self-respecting gunslinger EVER shot =
anyone in the back to add some notches on his belt? Nor did anyone shoot =
them in the back. Nah...that's the code of playing fair in taking =
someone's life away. My uncle in WWII described to me US soldiers =
shooting Japanese any way they could get 'em dead...the same for =
Japanese firing on them. "Hey, charlie, will you turn around so that I =
can shoot you, damn it!" Kerry yells out. ROFL!!!
Yeah, uh, huh...you're a real humanitarian killer at heart...
Willy=20
=20
=20
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
27 Apr 2004 05:07:52 PM |
|
|
In article <20040427085203.10326.00000405@mb-m03.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
wrote:
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
If they'd disputed them, they wouldn't >have confirmed them.
Wrong.
As CO Kerry filled out his own papers.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to >>>rescue one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier >>and shot him in the back.
Tell it to the guy whose life he saved.
Woods
That is a false tale, they interviewed men who were there, Kerry did not save
anyones life, he persued and killed a fleeing man, shooting him in the back.
Not a false tale - sorry.
But, let's get down to the *real* issue here. Kerry is a decorated war hero,
while Bush went AWOL to avoid a drug screening test in a non-combat, cushy,
alternative service. The Republicans are completely ignoring the telephone pole
in their own eye to try to find someone else's splinter.
I should think that as a Christian, as well as an American Patriot, you'd have a
very serious problem with a drughead who avoided his own service allow his
campaign to engage in such mudslinging against a decorated veteran. It
definitely shows that Bush is not only a hypocrite, but has absolutely no
respect whatsoever for any of the Viet Nam vets. Regardless of whatever you may
wish to try to dig up in terms of Bush's spewings, this behavior on his behalf
and his cutting of veterans' benefits says it ALL.
Woods
.
|
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| User: "Ex" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
27 Apr 2004 08:07:48 PM |
|
|
"Woodswun" <> wrote in message
news:YQAjc.116425$M3.56804@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040427085203.10326.00000405@mb-m03.aol.com>,
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
wrote:
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his
injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
If they'd disputed them, they wouldn't >have confirmed them.
Wrong.
As CO Kerry filled out his own papers.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to >>>rescue one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier >>and shot him in the back.
Tell it to the guy whose life he saved.
Woods
That is a false tale, they interviewed men who were there, Kerry did not
save
anyones life, he persued and killed a fleeing man, shooting him in the
back.
Not a false tale - sorry.
But, let's get down to the *real* issue here. Kerry is a decorated war
hero,
while Bush went AWOL to avoid a drug screening test in a non-combat,
cushy,
alternative service. The Republicans are completely ignoring the
telephone pole
in their own eye to try to find someone else's splinter.
I should think that as a Christian, as well as an American Patriot, you'd
have a
very serious problem with a drughead who avoided his own service allow his
campaign to engage in such mudslinging against a decorated veteran. It
definitely shows that Bush is not only a hypocrite, but has absolutely no
respect whatsoever for any of the Viet Nam vets. Regardless of whatever
you may
wish to try to dig up in terms of Bush's spewings, this behavior on his
behalf
and his cutting of veterans' benefits says it ALL.
Woods
Beautifully put and dead on the mark ....
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04
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| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
28 Apr 2004 01:55:04 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:07:52 GMT, (Woodswun)
wrote:
In article <20040427085203.10326.00000405@mb-m03.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
wrote:
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
:
wrote:
Um .... his medals all had confirmation >from witnesses to his injuries.
And some of those people dispute those injuries.
If they'd disputed them, they wouldn't >have confirmed them.
Wrong.
As CO Kerry filled out his own papers.
Kerry went in under enemy fire to >>>rescue one of his men
Wrong. Kerry chased an enemy soldier >>and shot him in the back.
Tell it to the guy whose life he saved.
Woods
That is a false tale, they interviewed men who were there, Kerry did not save
anyones life, he persued and killed a fleeing man, shooting him in the back.
Not a false tale - sorry.
But, let's get down to the *real* issue here. Kerry is a decorated war hero,
while Bush went AWOL to avoid a drug screening test in a non-combat, cushy,
alternative service. The Republicans are completely ignoring the telephone pole
in their own eye to try to find someone else's splinter.
I should think that as a Christian, as well as an American Patriot, you'd have a
very serious problem with a drughead who avoided his own service allow his
campaign to engage in such mudslinging against a decorated veteran. It
definitely shows that Bush is not only a hypocrite, but has absolutely no
respect whatsoever for any of the Viet Nam vets. Regardless of whatever you may
wish to try to dig up in terms of Bush's spewings, this behavior on his behalf
and his cutting of veterans' benefits says it ALL.
Great post, Woods. I find myself agreeing with you almost all of the
time.. but I don't want to constantly be a "Me Too!!" person .. :)
But you're on the ball and I respect you for speaking out against this
as you and I both know we can be ridiculed and labelled "unPatriotic";
when in fact it's a complete 180 from that.. we're the ones who are
being Patriotic here.
Dani
Woods
.
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| User: "jha_amin" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
25 Apr 2004 10:03:11 PM |
|
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(Woodswun) wrote in message news:<AYgic.81624$M3.54413@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <20040423094655.26631.00000196@mb-m29.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Records on medals spark questions
Interesting. The news report that I read indicated that shrapnel was removed
from his arm, which would necessarily have broken the skin.
In any case, those who served with him, with the exception of a single Bush
supporter, all vouch for his service record and earning all medals accorded him.
(and the lone Bush supporter only questions his "leadership" and the first of 3
purple hearts he got).
Woods
Wasn't anything compared to the brain cells bush gave up during his
rebellious "drinking days".
Too bad he did not listen to his father earthly father this one time.
Looks like pop had some good counsel, and he listened to them.
In A World Transformed by President G.H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft,
published in 1998. G.H.W. explains why he allowed Saddam to stay in
power, " trying to eliminate Saddam…would have incurred incalculable
human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible…
We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and in effect, rule Iraq…
There was no viable ‘exit strategy' we could see, violating another of
our principals for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world.
Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United
Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international
response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the
invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an
occupying power in a bitter hostile land."
.
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| User: "Gerald" |
|
| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
25 Apr 2004 10:32:15 PM |
|
|
In article <33b7880.0404251903.69114ef1@posting.google.com>, jha_amin says...
Too bad he did not listen to his father earthly father this one time.
Looks like pop had some good counsel, and he listened to them.
In A World Transformed by President G.H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft,
published in 1998. G.H.W. explains why he allowed Saddam to stay in
power, " trying to eliminate Saddam…would have incurred incalculable
human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible…
We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and in effect, rule Iraq…
There was no viable ‘exit strategy' we could see, violating another of
our principals for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world.
Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United
Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international
response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the
invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an
occupying power in a bitter hostile land."
Poppy's opinion made sense. The flaw in GWI wasn't that Poppy didn't take out
SH or occupy Iraq and make an honest country out of it but that he ordered our
field commander to not destroy the Republican Guard both men and equipment when
they were in our grasp. The Republican Guard had to and did escape north going
adjacent to our forces who could have cut them off and taken them apart. This
would have defused SH. Poppy also could have not allowed SH to use helicopter
gun ships to strafe the Kurds during their heat breaking flight to the
mountains. Poppy also could have backed up the Shiites and Kurds when they
rebelled against SH as Poppy said he would. Poppy is no ex pres to be
particularly respected. He should not have gone in in the first place but
having done so he ought not to have dishonored America. Of course Poppy looks
good compared to his son who has thrown a torch into a great sea of gasoline
which will burn hotly for years to come.
Gerald
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 12:48:42 PM |
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Gerald <Gerald_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c6hvrv01eoi@drn.newsguy.com>...
In article <33b7880.0404251903.69114ef1@posting.google.com>, jha_amin says...
Too bad he did not listen to his father earthly father this one time.
Looks like pop had some good counsel, and he listened to them.
In A World Transformed by President G.H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft,
published in 1998. G.H.W. explains why he allowed Saddam to stay in
power, " trying to eliminate Saddam?would have incurred incalculable
human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible?
We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and in effect, rule Iraq?
There was no viable ?exit strategy' we could see, violating another of
our principals for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world.
Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United
Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international
response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the
invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an
occupying power in a bitter hostile land."
Poppy's opinion made sense. The flaw in GWI wasn't that Poppy didn't take out
SH or occupy Iraq and make an honest country out of it but that he ordered our
field commander to not destroy the Republican Guard both men and equipment when
they were in our grasp.
Le Pere listened to the U.N. - the same thing the Dems are whining
about the republicans not doing. For example, if he didn;t listen to
the U.N. America would have taken Baghdad back then and kicked SH out.
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| User: "WillyWaco" |
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| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 10:59:13 PM |
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"Michael Johnathan McDonald" <abookoflife@yahoo.com> wrote in message =
news:dd3256f0.0404260948.7f5d6830@posting.google.com...
Gerald <Gerald_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message =
news:<c6hvrv01eoi@drn.newsguy.com>...
In article <33b7880.0404251903.69114ef1@posting.google.com>, =
jha_amin says...
Too bad he did not listen to his father earthly father this one =
time.
Looks like pop had some good counsel, and he listened to them.
In A World Transformed by President G.H.W. Bush and Brent =
Scowcroft,
published in 1998. G.H.W. explains why he allowed Saddam to stay in
power, " trying to eliminate Saddam?would have incurred =
incalculable
human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably =
impossible?
We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and in effect, rule =
Iraq?
There was no viable ?exit strategy' we could see, violating another =
of
our principals for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world.
Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United
Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of =
international
response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the
invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an
occupying power in a bitter hostile land."
=20
Poppy's opinion made sense. The flaw in GWI wasn't that Poppy =
didn't take out
SH or occupy Iraq and make an honest country out of it but that he =
ordered our
field commander to not destroy the Republican Guard both men and =
equipment when
they were in our grasp. =20
=20
Le Pere listened to the U.N. - the same thing the Dems are whining
about the republicans not doing. For example, if he didn;t listen to
the U.N. America would have taken Baghdad back then and kicked SH out.
Without a majority vote in favor of military action against Saddam, Bush =
proceeded to unilateral action. He broke the law the USA signed onto in =
the UN charter, to obide by the majority decision of the Security =
Council. Therefore, this was an illegal war, and then later he asks the =
UN to replace US troops in Iraq! Incredible! You need to understand that =
Saddam's non-existent WMD also made this preemptive attack unjustified =
for the USA's self-defense, and, morally, a sickening mass murder and =
maiming of thousands. So, big deal, Saddam's out, now we're in a turkey =
shoot leading into a deep quagmire. Most of the world community has =
turned against us. Junior should've listened to Scowcroft and Daddy...
Willy
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| User: "cesar" |
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| Title: Re: Kerry Records on medals spark questions |
26 Apr 2004 11:45:00 PM |
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"WillyWaco" <g-ray52@excite.com> wrote in message
news:c6klqi01c79@enews4.newsguy.com...
Without a majority vote in favor of military action against Saddam, Bush
proceeded to unilateral action. He >broke the law the USA signed onto in the
UN charter, to obide by the majority decision of the Security >Council.
Therefore, this was an illegal war, and then later he asks the UN to replace
US troops in Iraq! >Incredible! You need to understand that Saddam's
non-existent WMD also made this preemptive attack >unjustified for the USA's
self-defense, and, morally, a sickening mass murder and maiming of
thousands. >So, big deal, Saddam's out, now we're in a turkey shoot leading
into a deep quagmire. Most of the world >community has turned against us.
Junior should've listened to Scowcroft and Daddy...
Willy
Daniel 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god
whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with
precious stones, and pleasant things.
cesar
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