Laughter Of The Gods
By Sheila Samples
Contributing Editor
Axis of Logic
3-5-4
The more I look at the chaotic mess George W. Bush is making in every
blessed corner of the world, the more I am inclined to take a closer
look at the God in whose name he claims to be making it.
Just who IS this God that chats up brazen hypocrites and zealots in
our midst -- whipping them into a frenzy of pharisaic attempts to
strangle democracy at home and abroad? This awesome creature is on a
murderous rampage in the Middle East, Africa, South America and -- as
Donald Rumsfeld would say -- east, west, north and south somewhat.
Armed and jackbooted, Bush's flinty-hearted Diety bears no resemblance
to the compassionate and forgiving God in whom Christians have put
their faith for more than two millenia.
More and more innocents are being herded onto the world's killing
fields by the deliberate actions of a Christian nation -- in the name
of its Christian God. What blasphemy! If Christians are unable to
recognize the difference between good and evil; if they cannot see
that those we crush under our heel are also God's creation -- then all
those hours spent in Sunday School, church services, summer camp and
"all day singing and dinner on the grounds" picnics were a sorry waste
of time. The nature of a man is revealed by the company he keeps.
Those who preach that maiming and killing terrified men, women and
children is "God's will" -- who cover up the slaughter of their own
citizens and who topple other regimes by force or farce -- are evil
men who cavort with evil gods. And every single Christian in this
country knows it.
The Beast may not yet be loosed upon the world, but his minions are
having one hell of a good time, and laughing their asses off in the
process. By joining forces in a destructive "means justifies the ends"
crusade to both control and convert the world, the Neoconservatives
and Religious Right have created a playground for wicked gods. Each
needs the other to achieve its goals. And the glue that holds them
together is a man whose own words indict him as the proverbial village
idiot who has no clue about either means or ends, but who serves at
this point in history as both the enabled and the enabler.
The Neocons
I have written so much about this ungodly bunch I sometimes feel like
a rabid Sam Kinison, standing in the breach, screaming into the wind.
Except for God's coat-tails they intend to ride in on, the Almighty
does not enter into their equation for world domination.
Their names are familiar -- ***** Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard
Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Michael Ledeen...They tower
contemptuously above God, their plan for a new world order far grander
than His, and their fingerprints are all over the tens of thousands of
innocents who have been killed, injured or horribly maimed.
They are everywhere -- from the Project for a New American Century
(PNAC) and other right-wing think tanks such as the American
Enterprise Institute (AEI) -- to the Pentagon, State Department and
White House. And, in their own words, they have only just begun.
Ledeen is possibly the most dangerous and influential neocon of all
the Iran-Contra madmen who are back in power. In his book, Machiavelli
on Modern Leadership, Ledeen says, "Creative destruction is our middle
name. We do it automatically...It is time once again to export the
democratic revolution."
"God," Ledeen explains, "understands that all men are evil, and the
only way to achieve peace is through total war." Ledeen believes "the
sparing of civilian lives cannot be the total war's first
priority...The purpose of total war is to permanently force your will
onto another people."
In the unlikely event that Americans emerge from their stupor before
Ledeen and his New World Order is upon them, I hope they realize that
following the hostile and unfamiliar God for whom Ledeen speaks would
be kind of like walking a mad dog on a leash...
The God People
The Religious Right is also obsessed with power and control, and the
majority of its members are living proof that, like the ancient
Euripides wrote -- "Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make
mad." God walks with them; talks to them and issues militant edicts to
us through them. Most are Republicans -- proud "born again" Christians
who speak deleriously of "God's will and the blood of Jesus Christ" --
but their true religion is cold, hard politics.
They walk the halls of Congress, and are by far the most powerful
voting bloc in America. When they speak, presidents listen --
constitutional amendments are proposed, freedoms are lost, liberties
dry up...
According to a project by TheocracyWatch.org, " The Rise of the
Religious Right in the Republican Party," they propose bills that are
"anti-women, anti-labor and anti-civil rights. Their legislation
opposes finance campaign reform; environmental protection; gun
control; social justice for the poor; public education; teaching
evolution; human sexuality; and a separation of church and state." The
report says their bills "show a disregard for the U.S. Constitution,
and finally, Democracy itself. Bills coming from the Religious Right
favor the wealthy and large corporations. The ultimate political goal
is to make this country a Christian nation." (Emphasis added)
We smile and shake our heads at the outlandish claims of TV
evangelists Pat Robertson, to whom God confided recently that "Bush
will win the 2004 election in a blowout," or Jerry Falwell, who
believes the "idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented
by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country." We
even giggled when Attorney General John Ashcroft assured graduates at
Bob Jones University that "America has no king but Jesus."
Trust me -- these people are not funny.
For example, Tom Delay, Texas Republican and House Majority Leader,
once told a group of evangelical Christians that God was "using him"
to promote a biblical worldview. "Only Christianity offers a
comprehensive worldview that covers all areas of life and thought --
every aspect of creation," DeLay said. "Only Christianity offers a way
to live in response to the realities that we find in this world. Only
Christianity." (Emphasis added) Like his counterparts, DeLay believes
that fundamentalists should "overturn the separation of church and
state and bring government under religious control."
And listen to Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian
Political Action -- "When the Christian majority takes over this
country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution
of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the
Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral
and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice
evil."
But few are more frightening than Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe who
strode to the Senate chamber shortly after 9-11 to announce that the
attacks were punishment by God because we were not sufficiently in awe
of Israel. Inhofe said God told him Israel is "entitled" to the West
Bank, and the U.S. should not pressure Ariel Sharon to stop killing
Palestinians.
According to Inhofe, God angrily slung three airliners full of
unsuspecting souls into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon,
incinerating more than 3,000 innocent citizens, and furiously rammed
another plane into the Pennsylvania countryside -- because America was
not sufficiently subservient to Israel. Inhofe believes America got
what it deserved, and we should heed God's "wake up call" lest He
strike us again...
Brother James Inhofe -- just one reason we sleep with the lights on in
Oklahoma...
The Chosen One
From Jesus is my philosopher to God is my co-pilot, George Bush has
been nothing if not ghoulishly entertaining. Far more talented writers
than I have gone completely berserk while attempting to explain what
makes Bush tick. It's simple, really. The answer is Nothing. Nothing
makes him tick. That's why he's the perfect foil for the warhawks and
religious zealots.
Bush is a swaggering, paranoid, hubristic bully, consumed by an
irrational sense of his own worth. Just your normal, run-of-the-mill
Texas good ol' boy Republican -- with money. After carousing, falling
down drunk, and failing at every business enterprise his daddy set up
for him -- at the tender age of 40, Bush was "born again" and became
the Lord's own most visible high-stepping 12-stepper. Fourteen years
later, he was President of the United States. In his defense, I have
to say Bush is acting no differently than any other 14-year-old
spoiled bully would be expected to act under the same circumstances...
And he's a Believer. Bush believes what they tell him he believes,
such as he was chosen by God to lead the Christians in a righteous war
against Islam. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia even blames God
for his own deadly vote that thwarted democracy in 2000 and seized
power from the people. Believing that Bush is serving by divine
appointment, Scalia wrote in a May 2002 article, God's Justice and
Ours that the government has a higher authority granted to it by God.
He said unequivocally, "Government carries the sword as the minister
of God, to execute wrath upon the evildoer..."
Much of Scalia's, and therefore Bush's, belief is based on, and his
core speeches drawn from, the 13th Chapter of Romans, which admonishes
citizens to "obey the government, for God is the one who has put it
there." Punishment is swift and sure for those who refuse to "obey"
the laws of the land, for the scripture says, "the policeman is sent
by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course
you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God
for that very purpose..."
Bush shrugs aside wimps like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who can't
seem to get beyond love, kindness, helping the vulnerable, caring for
the needy and the sheer compassion expounded by Jesus in His Sermon on
the Mount, and seem to prattle on endlessly about salvation. Bush is
also wont to deep-six most "Thou Shalt Nots," because, in Romans 13,
it clearly says all ten commandments "are wrapped up in this one -- to
love your neighbor as you love yourself..." It is the only law
Christians need to obey -- other than, of course, those of the
government and its Ashcroftian Mr. Policeman whom God has sent to
punish them...
Americans who look at Bush and see either compassion or morality are
severely suffering from optical delusion. This is a man who sets
himself up as a purveyor of truth and knowledge, but who sees "thugs
and killers, brutal dictators and barbarians" behind every tree, and
is committed to not let "terriers and rogue nations hold this nation
hostile." This is a man who declared war upon Islam --calling it a
"crusade" -- from the pulpit of the National Cathedral rather than the
Oval Office. This is a man who enjoys what he is doing in God's name,
and who promises that he will not stop killing until the entire world
is "safe."
The world cringes as George Bush, militant neocons and the completely
mad religious right steer the Bush Ship of State toward the jagged
shoals. God has left the building.
Is it any wonder the lesser gods are shrieking with laughter...?
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5423.shtml
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 09:21:28 AM |
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Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag. You're called to serve love
first. You're called to serve justice. You are called to love Him totally.
Patriotism, at it's core, is idolatry.
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 03:16:00 PM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built? Did it just happen out of nowhere?
And why do you assume your Christian brethren "blindly" attach their
loyalties somewhere? How about eyes wide open?
Compare the liberty associated with Western societies to the tyranny
and despotism that reside in other societies.
You're called to serve love first. You're called to serve justice.
You are called to love Him totally. Patriotism, at it's core, is idolatry.
So what are we to do when our liberty is threatened? Just roll over
and surrender?
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Just be careful you don't play into its hands. Make the societal
comparison I mentioned above, and it becomes quite obvious what is
right and what is wrong.
****************
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter!" Isiah 5:20
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 12:15:57 AM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hardwork, control and manipulation, domination of world resources, various
means of imperial behavior. The deconstruction of the British Empire after
World War II and the ascendance of the American Empire, the American
Century.
Let me quote Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's National Secruity Advisor,
from his book, "The Grand Chessboard", page 10. Here are the reasons for
the success of the American Empire.
"As in the past, the exercise of American "imperial" power is derived in
large measure from superior organization, from the ability to mobilize vast
economic and technological resources promptly for military purposes, from
the vague but significant cultural appeal of the American way of life, and
from the sheer dynamism and inherent competitiveness of the American social
and political elites."
Did it just happen out of nowhere?
No.
And why do you assume your Christian brethren "blindly" attach their
loyalties somewhere?
Because they've taken their comfort, their wealth, their security and
wrapped themselves in the flag. Then they wrap Jesus in the flag.
Are you aware of the history of Latin America and how the United States,
under the aegis of the Monroe Docrtrine, has had it's fingers in militarily
invading, organizing coups, supporting and establishing tyrannical
dictatorships, dealing with oligarchal elites in order to control Latin
societies for the harvesting of wealth?
Are you aware of the story of General Efrain Rios-Montt of Guatemala and the
deaths of upwards of 100,000 dirt poor "communist" Mayan Indians in the
early to mid-eighties? I remember Rios-Montt showing up on Paul Crouch's
"Praise the Lord" program back in the early eighties and being hailed as a
fine Christian man, just the person for what Guatemala needed. He was also
endorsed by Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell. When asked once about the 440
Mayan villages burned in this genocide Rios-Montt said, "I don't burn
villages, I burn communists".
Is this how your Lord and Savior operates? Would you endorse this man? Do
you know that people like dirt poor Mayans don't read "Das Kapital" and
fight ideological wars? They fight for basic human rights that have been
denied for centuries and then are labelled communists.
How about eyes wide open?
You tell me. Are you ready for something other than propaganda?
Compare the liberty associated with Western societies to the tyranny
and despotism that reside in other societies.
To a large degree tyranny and despotism in other societies is established
and supported by Anglo-American "interests" for the harvesting of natural
resources. To maintain order, control. To obtain wealth.
What do you know about the formation of the State of Iraq by the French and
the British after the Ottomans were thrown out of their Middle East holdings
around the end of WW I?
You're called to serve love first. You're called to serve justice.
You are called to love Him totally. Patriotism, at it's core, is
idolatry.
So what are we to do when our liberty is threatened?
Show me where Jesus justifies killing for liberty. This is where patriotism
carries someone beyond Christianity. Jesus is no longer God. Your liberty,
your safety, your sweet life becomes your priority.
"You shall love the Lord, thy God with all your heart, soul and strength."
Jesus added your mind and YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Just roll over and surrender?
No, the Al-Queda had to be done away with as a clear and present danger.
It's getting late and I'll make this as simple as possible. Would the
attack have happened if we loved Muslims as ourselves? Even if you see
them as enemies how are we to treat them? Respect their homelands? Seek
basic rights for Palestinians? It's pretty common knowledge that if you
deal with those two issues you'll defuse Muslim radicals.
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Just be careful you don't play into its hands. Make the societal
comparison I mentioned above, and it becomes quite obvious what is
right and what is wrong.
Societal comparisons? I'll lead with the Word and I'll be just fine.
****************
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter!" Isiah 5:20
Ezekiel 16:48-50 (NLT)
As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, Sodom and her daughters
were never as wicked as you and your daughters. [49] Sodom's sins were
pride, laziness, and gluttony, while the poor and needy suffered outside her
door. [50] She was proud and did loathsome things, so I wiped her out, as
you have seen.
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 05:15:44 PM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
Did it just happen out of nowhere?
No, it takes hard work and planning...
And why do you assume your Christian brethren "blindly" attach their
loyalties somewhere?
Pretty obvious...
How about eyes wide open?
How about eyes wide shut?
Compare the liberty associated with Western societies to the tyranny
and despotism that reside in other societies.
Liberty?
You have the Liberty to work.
You are free to pay your local, state, and federal taxes.
You are free to pay FICA and Medicare.
Then you are free to go back to work... driving your gas filled car,
polluting the planet... but only if you've paid your Registration,
Inspection, and Insurance Tithe...
And only if you drive within the lines, and say "Yes Sir" and "Yes Ma'am"
when you are stopped for no reason by those law enforcement kids whose motto
is not "To Protect and to Serve" but to "Collect and to Serve".
Then you are free to purchase your items of subsistence, again paying almost
a tithe in tax.
And whatever is left over, you are free to buy your Cable TV, Your Cell
Phone...
You also have the Liberty of Credit, for which you purchase things that you
have not earned... again paying perhaps twice the Tithe...
These are your liberties... this is your freedom?
You're called to serve love first. You're called to serve justice.
You are called to love Him totally. Patriotism, at it's core, is
idolatry.
So what are we to do when our liberty is threatened? Just roll over
and surrender?
You do what the President said after 911: "Go back to work".
Hmmm... beginning to see a pattern?
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Just be careful you don't play into its hands. Make the societal
comparison I mentioned above, and it becomes quite obvious what is
right and what is wrong.
Yes... it certainly does.
When did the Christian ethic become one of materialism?
(For that matter, when did Christians stop being Jewish?)
I believe John is partially right... Deception is a formidable aspect of
these times.
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter!" Isiah 5:20
No truer words were probably ever spoken... but then again... it assumes
that people KNOW the difference between Evil and Good...
.... should the definition of Evil be decided upon by the principle of
'Majority Rules'?
.... no, I don't think so. There has to be a fundamental definition of
Evil... of Good... a definition without Linguistic, Cultural, or Regional
bias.
Otherwise, it's just one people trying to force their will upon another...
the motive (salvation) is moot... it's just not nice... and won't be
tolerated.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 12:52:40 AM |
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"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<AYs2c.25434$aT1.1282@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
Did it just happen out of nowhere?
No, it takes hard work and planning...
And why do you assume your Christian brethren "blindly" attach their
loyalties somewhere?
Pretty obvious...
How about eyes wide open?
How about eyes wide shut?
Speak for yourself.
Compare the liberty associated with Western societies to the tyranny
and despotism that reside in other societies.
Liberty?
You have the Liberty to work.
Absolutely.
You are free to pay your local, state, and federal taxes.
You are free to pay FICA and Medicare.
Then you are free to go back to work... driving your gas filled car,
polluting the planet... but only if you've paid your Registration,
Inspection, and Insurance Tithe...
And only if you drive within the lines, and say "Yes Sir" and "Yes Ma'am"
when you are stopped for no reason by those law enforcement kids whose motto
is not "To Protect and to Serve" but to "Collect and to Serve".
Sounds like you think you live in a police state. I wonder if you have
any idea what a real police state is like?
Then you are free to purchase your items of subsistence, again paying almost
a tithe in tax.
And whatever is left over, you are free to buy your Cable TV, Your Cell
Phone...
Sounds pretty good so far.
You also have the Liberty of Credit, for which you purchase things that you
have not earned... again paying perhaps twice the Tithe...
Hmm ... you know, no one forces anyone into that. But it is a nice
option if used correctly. And if you're paying twice the tithe, you
need to renegotiate.
These are your liberties... this is your freedom?
Absolutely. Now, instead of comparing this society to utopia, please
compare it to some other earthly society. Say, for instance, Communist
North Korea. Or how about Islamic Sudan?
You're called to serve love first. You're called to serve justice.
You are called to love Him totally. Patriotism, at it's core, is
idolatry.
So what are we to do when our liberty is threatened? Just roll over
and surrender?
You do what the President said after 911: "Go back to work".
Hmmm... beginning to see a pattern?
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if you have a problem with the concept of
work?
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Just be careful you don't play into its hands. Make the societal
comparison I mentioned above, and it becomes quite obvious what is
right and what is wrong.
Yes... it certainly does.
When did the Christian ethic become one of materialism?
Liberty provides opportunity and choices. It does not require anyone
to be materialistic.
(For that matter, when did Christians stop being Jewish?)
I believe John is partially right... Deception is a formidable aspect of
these times.
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for
bitter!" Isiah 5:20
No truer words were probably ever spoken... but then again... it assumes
that people KNOW the difference between Evil and Good...
That is why I asked for the societal comparison that you have so far
managed to avoid. Compare freedom of religion in Western societies to
the forced religion of the former Taliban. It should be obvious to
anyone with eyes wide open which is good and which is evil.
... should the definition of Evil be decided upon by the principle of
'Majority Rules'?
... no, I don't think so. There has to be a fundamental definition of
Evil... of Good... a definition without Linguistic, Cultural, or Regional
bias.
The US Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. The majority is
prohibited from imposing its religion on others. I'm still waiting for
that societal comparison ...
Otherwise, it's just one people trying to force their will upon another...
the motive (salvation) is moot... it's just not nice... and won't be
tolerated.
9/11 was the action of an element of one society trying to force its
will on another society -- and you're right, it's just not nice and
won't be tolerated.
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 11:48:43 AM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com...
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
No... one must be politically connected to reap the fruits from the Middle
and Lower class.
Sounds like you think you live in a police state. I wonder if you have
any idea what a real police state is like?
Well... if I look around me... and compare 'what is' to 'what was'... then,
hell yeah I know what a Police State is like!
There're cameras on every corner... we're stopped and searched for no
reason... databases are kept, DARPA has stated its intentions... all of our
constitutional rights are suspended if 'anyone' says that we 'may' be a
terrorist... children turning in their parents...
Then you are free to purchase your items of subsistence, again paying
almost
a tithe in tax.
And whatever is left over, you are free to buy your Cable TV, Your Cell
Phone...
Sounds pretty good so far.
I'll bet it does... and how sad.
Possible that you are being distracted from some goal because of these
things?
What have you done for Man lately?
:(
You also have the Liberty of Credit, for which you purchase things that
you
have not earned... again paying perhaps twice the Tithe...
Hmm ... you know, no one forces anyone into that. But it is a nice
option if used correctly. And if you're paying twice the tithe, you
need to renegotiate.
No... it is not nice... it's preying on ones Greed. It facilitates it...
makes it grow... it's not good... it's not a tool... it's bad... very bad.
Are you comfortable with the fact that you are saddling our children, our
children's children, with a Dept they must pay on OUR behalf?
Personally... I like my children... and don't want ANY plow affixed to them
on my behalf.
Absolutely. Now, instead of comparing this society to utopia, please
compare it to some other earthly society. Say, for instance, Communist
North Korea. Or how about Islamic Sudan?
Forget the concept of "there are worse ones... so you should be happy with
ours".
That's what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.
Complacency...
So what are we to do when our liberty is threatened? Just roll over
and surrender?
You do what the President said after 911: "Go back to work".
Hmmm... beginning to see a pattern?
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if you have a problem with the concept of
work?
Work? No.
Enslavement? Yes.
Others should not reap the rewards of MY hard work.
Especially if I have no choice in the matter of where my money goes.
Liberty provides opportunity and choices. It does not require anyone
to be materialistic.
Ah... but that is the point. You have the Liberty to BE materialistic... to
work... to provide benefits for those in power. THAT is your liberty.
No truer words were probably ever spoken... but then again... it assumes
that people KNOW the difference between Evil and Good...
That is why I asked for the societal comparison that you have so far
managed to avoid. Compare freedom of religion in Western societies to
the forced religion of the former Taliban. It should be obvious to
anyone with eyes wide open which is good and which is evil.
Freedom of Religion? You blind fool!
It has NOTHING to do with freedom of Religion...
As long as you work and pay your Tithes (more than half of your income)...
THAT'S all that matters...
You can believe ANYTHING you want... just keep that shoulder to the
grindstone... be willing to send your children off to war... THAT'S what is
important. THAT is your Liberty!
Otherwise, it's just one people trying to force their will upon
another...
the motive (salvation) is moot... it's just not nice... and won't be
tolerated.
9/11 was the action of an element of one society trying to force its
will on another society -- and you're right, it's just not nice and
won't be tolerated.
9/11 was a political statement by one political group against another
political group... it had nothing to do with Religion. If it was about
Religion or Morals then Las Vegas would have been attacked... or a Church or
something.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 12:10:18 PM |
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"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%fJ2c.570$Cm3.133@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com...
Sounds like you think you live in a police state. I wonder if you have
any idea what a real police state is like?
Well... if I look around me... and compare 'what is' to 'what was'...
then,
hell yeah I know what a Police State is like!
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
There're cameras on every corner... we're stopped and searched for no
reason... databases are kept, DARPA has stated its intentions... all of
our
constitutional rights are suspended if 'anyone' says that we 'may' be a
terrorist... children turning in their parents...
.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 05:41:25 PM |
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"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<%fJ2c.570$Cm3.133@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com...
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
No... one must be politically connected to reap the fruits from the Middle
and Lower class.
Uh oh ...
Sounds like you think you live in a police state. I wonder if you have
any idea what a real police state is like?
Well... if I look around me... and compare 'what is' to 'what was'... then,
hell yeah I know what a Police State is like!
There're cameras on every corner... we're stopped and searched for no
reason... databases are kept, DARPA has stated its intentions... all of our
constitutional rights are suspended if 'anyone' says that we 'may' be a
terrorist... children turning in their parents...
Hmm ... apparently you don't live where I live.
Then you are free to purchase your items of subsistence, again paying
almost
a tithe in tax.
And whatever is left over, you are free to buy your Cable TV, Your Cell
Phone...
Sounds pretty good so far.
I'll bet it does... and how sad.
Possible that you are being distracted from some goal because of these
things?
What have you done for Man lately?
:(
Probably more than you'd imagine.
You also have the Liberty of Credit, for which you purchase things that
you
have not earned... again paying perhaps twice the Tithe...
Hmm ... you know, no one forces anyone into that. But it is a nice
option if used correctly. And if you're paying twice the tithe, you
need to renegotiate.
No... it is not nice... it's preying on ones Greed. It facilitates it...
makes it grow... it's not good... it's not a tool... it's bad... very bad.
Are you comfortable with the fact that you are saddling our children, our
children's children, with a Dept they must pay on OUR behalf?
Oh, I thought you meant personal debt. I didn't realize you meant
National Debt. In this aspect, you're correct -- Federal spending
should definitely be brought back under control. When the economy
rebounds, revenue to the government will increase (as it did after
President Kennedy's tax cuts and again after President Reagan's tax
cuts).
Personally... I like my children... and don't want ANY plow affixed to them
on my behalf.
I'm sure they'll be fine as long as they maintain their liberty.
Absolutely. Now, instead of comparing this society to utopia, please
compare it to some other earthly society. Say, for instance, Communist
North Korea. Or how about Islamic Sudan?
Forget the concept of "there are worse ones... so you should be happy with
ours".
Sorry, I will not forget that concept at all. Of course ours is not
perfect, but it is far superior to others.
That's what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.
Complacency...
Whose compacency would that be? Not mine, because I *appreciate* my
liberty ... while you seem entirely ungrateful.
So what are we to do when our liberty is threatened? Just roll over
and surrender?
You do what the President said after 911: "Go back to work".
Hmmm... beginning to see a pattern?
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if you have a problem with the concept of
work?
Work? No.
Enslavement? Yes.
Others should not reap the rewards of MY hard work.
Especially if I have no choice in the matter of where my money goes.
Hmm ... sort of vaguely sounds like a Karl Marx theory
..
Liberty provides opportunity and choices. It does not require anyone
to be materialistic.
Ah... but that is the point. You have the Liberty to BE materialistic... to
work... to provide benefits for those in power. THAT is your liberty.
No truer words were probably ever spoken... but then again... it assumes
that people KNOW the difference between Evil and Good...
That is why I asked for the societal comparison that you have so far
managed to avoid. Compare freedom of religion in Western societies to
the forced religion of the former Taliban. It should be obvious to
anyone with eyes wide open which is good and which is evil.
Freedom of Religion? You blind fool!
It has NOTHING to do with freedom of Religion...
As long as you work and pay your Tithes (more than half of your income)...
THAT'S all that matters...
You can believe ANYTHING you want... just keep that shoulder to the
grindstone... be willing to send your children off to war... THAT'S what is
important. THAT is your Liberty!
It's been working like that for over 200 years. It would have been
very easy to lose this liberty at several points along the way. Thank
God those generations did what it took to maintain this liberty for
those of us who *appreciate* their sacrifice ... and they even did it
for ingrates like you, too.
Otherwise, it's just one people trying to force their will upon
another...
the motive (salvation) is moot... it's just not nice... and won't be
tolerated.
9/11 was the action of an element of one society trying to force its
will on another society -- and you're right, it's just not nice and
won't be tolerated.
9/11 was a political statement by one political group against another
political group... it had nothing to do with Religion. If it was about
Religion or Morals then Las Vegas would have been attacked... or a Church or
something.
Apparently you don't realize those Islamic fundamentalist terrorists
see the entire US as one big Las Vegas ... and the biggest targets
were in NYC.
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 05:56:37 PM |
|
|
In article <a2b35e99.0403071541.382b56ec@posting.google.com>, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<%fJ2c.570$Cm3.133@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com...
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
No... one must be politically connected to reap the fruits from the Middle
and Lower class.
Uh oh ...
Sounds like you think you live in a police state. I wonder if you have
any idea what a real police state is like?
Well... if I look around me... and compare 'what is' to 'what was'... then,
hell yeah I know what a Police State is like!
There're cameras on every corner... we're stopped and searched for no
reason... databases are kept, DARPA has stated its intentions... all of our
constitutional rights are suspended if 'anyone' says that we 'may' be a
terrorist... children turning in their parents...
Hmm ... apparently you don't live where I live.
Then you are free to purchase your items of subsistence, again paying
almost
a tithe in tax.
And whatever is left over, you are free to buy your Cable TV, Your Cell
Phone...
Sounds pretty good so far.
I'll bet it does... and how sad.
Possible that you are being distracted from some goal because of these
things?
What have you done for Man lately?
:(
Probably more than you'd imagine.
You also have the Liberty of Credit, for which you purchase things that
you
have not earned... again paying perhaps twice the Tithe...
Hmm ... you know, no one forces anyone into that. But it is a nice
option if used correctly. And if you're paying twice the tithe, you
need to renegotiate.
No... it is not nice... it's preying on ones Greed. It facilitates it...
makes it grow... it's not good... it's not a tool... it's bad... very bad.
Are you comfortable with the fact that you are saddling our children, our
children's children, with a Dept they must pay on OUR behalf?
Oh, I thought you meant personal debt. I didn't realize you meant
National Debt. In this aspect, you're correct -- Federal spending
should definitely be brought back under control. When the economy
rebounds, revenue to the government will increase (as it did after
President Kennedy's tax cuts and again after President Reagan's tax
cuts).
You seem to have forgotten that President Reagan's economic policies, which
included those tax cuts, helped to bring about the recession that got Bush, Sr.
booted out of office.
Woods
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 08:10:18 AM |
|
|
In article <a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com>, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<AYs2c.25434$aT1.1282@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
Why don't you ask some of the folks who've been working 2-3 minimum wage jobs
just to feed their family how "comfortable and cushy" they've got it. Granted,
they realize they're lucky to be able to at least feed their kids, but I can't
imagine calling anyone working that hard as having it "comfortable and cushy".
You are out of touch with the new American reality of the lower middle class.
Woods
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 12:13:31 PM |
|
|
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:e3G2c.66483$um1.59926@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com>,
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote:
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<AYs2c.25434$aT1.1282@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the
situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an
economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy
lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
Why don't you ask some of the folks who've been working 2-3 minimum wage
jobs
just to feed their family how "comfortable and cushy" they've got it.
Granted,
they realize they're lucky to be able to at least feed their kids, but I
can't
imagine calling anyone working that hard as having it "comfortable and
cushy".
You are out of touch with the new American reality of the lower middle
class.
Woods
Good point, Woods.
.
|
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 05:21:24 PM |
|
|
(Woodswun) wrote in message news:<e3G2c.66483$um1.59926@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com>, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<AYs2c.25434$aT1.1282@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
Why don't you ask some of the folks who've been working 2-3 minimum wage jobs
just to feed their family how "comfortable and cushy" they've got it.
You might have noticed it was someone else who originally used that
phrase -- which is why I put it in quotes.
Granted, they realize they're lucky to be able to at least feed their
kids, but I can't imagine calling anyone working that hard as having
it "comfortable and cushy".
Of course you're right. If I had originated the "comfortable and
cushy" phrase in this thread, you'd definitely have a point in
directing this post toward me.
You are out of touch with the new American reality of the lower middle class.
Not really, I've been there. A couple of times. Hard work and
*PLANNING* was the answer given for that "comfortable and cushy"
question.
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 05:54:46 PM |
|
|
In article <a2b35e99.0403071521.7f1cb4b1@posting.google.com>, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun) wrote in message
news:<e3G2c.66483$um1.59926@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com>,
(Steven Douglas) wrote:
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<AYs2c.25434$aT1.1282@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
Why don't you ask some of the folks who've been working 2-3 minimum wage jobs
just to feed their family how "comfortable and cushy" they've got it.
You might have noticed it was someone else who originally used that
phrase -- which is why I put it in quotes.
Granted, they realize they're lucky to be able to at least feed their
kids, but I can't imagine calling anyone working that hard as having
it "comfortable and cushy".
Of course you're right. If I had originated the "comfortable and
cushy" phrase in this thread, you'd definitely have a point in
directing this post toward me.
Wow, you're really dodging, aren't you - are you a politician? In fact, it's
quite clear that you stated that it's comfortable and cushy "For anyone willing
to work hard and plan." Reread what *you* wrote.
And my response to what you wrote is that it is emphatically *NOT* comfortable
and cushy "For anyone willing to work hard and plan".
You are out of touch with the new American reality of the lower middle class.
Not really, I've been there. A couple of times. Hard work and
*PLANNING* was the answer given for that "comfortable and cushy"
question.
I very much doubt if you've really been where a lot of people are right now.
If you had been, you would know perfectly well that all the planning in the
world can't compensate for no job opportunities.
Woods
.
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| User: "naming el" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 04:05:20 PM |
|
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(Woodswun) wrote in message news:<e3G2c.66483$um1.59926@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
In article <a2b35e99.0403062252.6f6bd31@posting.google.com>, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<AYs2c.25434$aT1.1282@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403061316.48d69039@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net>...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag.
How do you think a society that provides for "comfortable cushy lives"
was built?
Hard work and planning...
But I'd ask: "Comfortable and Cushy" for whom?
For anyone willing to work hard and plan.
Why don't you ask some of the folks who've been working 2-3 minimum wage jobs
just to feed their family how "comfortable and cushy" they've got it. Granted,
they realize they're lucky to be able to at least feed their kids, but I can't
imagine calling anyone working that hard as having it "comfortable and cushy".
You are out of touch with the new American reality of the lower middle class.
Woods
being born with a silver spoon in your mouth sure does help.
http://www.glocom.org/opinions/essays/20040301_tsurumi_president /
March 1, 2004
President George Bush and the Gilded Age
Yoshi Tsurumi (Professor of International Business, Baruch College,
the City University of New York )
snip
At Harvard Business School, thirty years ago, George Bush was a
student of mine. I still vividly remember him. In my class, he
declared that "people are poor because they are lazy." He was opposed
to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare,
and public schools. To him, the antitrust watch dog, the Federal Trade
Commission, and the Securities Exchange Commission were unnecessary
hindrances to "free market competition." To him, Franklin Roosevelt's
New Deal was "socialism." Recently, President Bush's Federal Appeals
Court Nominee, California's Supreme Court Justice Janice Brown,
repeated the same broadside at her Senate hearing. She knew that her
pronouncement would please President Bush and Karl Rove and their
Senators. President Bush and his brain, Karl Rove, are leading a
radical revolution of destroying all the democratic political, social,
judiciary, and economic institutions that both Democrats and moderate
Republicans had built together since Roosevelt's New Deal.
.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 01:45:03 AM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
Societal comparisons? I'll lead with the Word and I'll be just fine.
Somewhere in that post you asked if I was ready for something other
than propaganda. My answer was yes, because I'm tired of "Blame the US
for everything" propaganda. The only things that rang true in your
post were the quote from Brezinski and the fact that Al Queda needs to
be defeated. I see nothing at all controversial in what Brezinski
wrote.
You chose to deflect the societal comparisons question. So be it. You
believe the two political parties are competing factions of a shared
ideology. Since we're not going to agree on the fundamental
foundations for this discussion, I see no point in continuing.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 12:02:37 PM |
|
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403062345.43bec4eb@posting.google.com...
I see nothing at all controversial in what Brezinski
wrote.
Does that mean you endorse and support the following quote?
"As in the past, the exercise of American "imperial" power is derived in
large measure from superior organization, from the ability to mobilize vast
economic and technological resources promptly for military purposes, from
the vague but significant cultural appeal of the American way of life, and
from the sheer dynamism and inherent competitiveness of the American social
and political elites."
You chose to deflect the societal comparisons question.
Deflection? I think you understand deflection, avoidance, dismissive
argument and the unwillingness to address issues point by point quite well.
Actually your statement was domonstrably vague and it was getting late.
Compare the liberty associated with Western societies to the tyranny
and despotism that reside in other societies.
Make the societal
comparison I mentioned above, and it becomes quite obvious what is
right and what is wrong.
Societal comparisons? Which Muslim society would you like to compare with
our Western societies, Steven? Some are more liberal, less restrictive,
than others.
But lets go with generalizations here anyway.
Do I see a society that sanctions public beatings, beheadings, amputations
for thievery, the brutal repression of women as a desirable place to live?
No.
Do I see them as morally superior to our "society"? No.
Do I see Western societies that support and do business with tyrannical and
despotic Muslim societies in order to enrich themselves as being Christian?
No.
Do I see Western societies who base their moral choices on their own
comfort, safety and security as opposed to loving their neighbors as
themselves as being morally superior to Muslim societies? No.
Do you, Steven, as a "Christian" base your "judgment", your choices, on your
own well-being or do you base them on Jesus' commandment to love your
neighbor as yourself?
We install, control, support and do business with oppressive terror regimes
to bring wealth, stability and ease to our society. We've done it for
decades. We've done it all over the world. One can make the case that
we're no better morally, as a society, than the butchers we do business
with. We, as hardworking and basically moral, giving Americans, just don't
see it that way because of our "distance".
We aren't fully aware of our culpability. We don't get the full story on
the news. We sit between two large oceans and don't have to hear the cries
or see the blood run.
How do we love third world nations as ourselves? For starters base your
relationships not on profit but on seeing to it that people have the same
ability to meet same basic needs we have. Life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness. Clean water. Basic medical care. The ability for the people to
choose how their resources are to be managed and how the resultant wealth is
to be employed.
They can work their way up to other necessities like cell phones, game
cubes, plasma tv's, suv's, "South Park" and "The Man Show" as they see fit.
.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 05:57:02 PM |
|
|
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message news:<NdGdndGniq4y-dbdRVn-sA@locallink.net>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0403062345.43bec4eb@posting.google.com...
I see nothing at all controversial in what Brezinski
wrote.
Does that mean you endorse and support the following quote?
No, and that's not even close to what I said about it.
"As in the past, the exercise of American "imperial" power is derived in
large measure from superior organization, from the ability to mobilize vast
economic and technological resources promptly for military purposes, from
the vague but significant cultural appeal of the American way of life, and
from the sheer dynamism and inherent competitiveness of the American social
and political elites."
I won't say I endorse and support that statement, because I don't
believe the US is an "imperial" power NOW in the same way it was in
the past. Take out the word "imperial" and I don't find anything in
there with which I can disagree.
You chose to deflect the societal comparisons question.
Deflection? I think you understand deflection, avoidance, dismissive
argument and the unwillingness to address issues point by point quite well.
Actually your statement was domonstrably vague and it was getting late.
It wasn't vague ... it was very direct and a simple -- two societies
and a simple "yea or nay" for each is all it takes.
Compare the liberty associated with Western societies to the tyranny
and despotism that reside in other societies.
Make the societal
comparison I mentioned above, and it becomes quite obvious what is
right and what is wrong.
Societal comparisons? Which Muslim society would you like to compare with
our Western societies, Steven? Some are more liberal, less restrictive,
than others.
But lets go with generalizations here anyway.
Do I see a society that sanctions public beatings, beheadings, amputations
for thievery, the brutal repression of women as a desirable place to live?
No.
Do I see them as morally superior to our "society"? No.
Do I see Western societies that support and do business with tyrannical and
despotic Muslim societies in order to enrich themselves as being Christian?
No.
Do I see Western societies who base their moral choices on their own
comfort, safety and security as opposed to loving their neighbors as
themselves as being morally superior to Muslim societies? No.
Do you, Steven, as a "Christian" base your "judgment", your choices, on your
own well-being or do you base them on Jesus' commandment to love your
neighbor as yourself?
We install, control, support and do business with oppressive terror regimes
to bring wealth, stability and ease to our society. We've done it for
decades. We've done it all over the world. One can make the case that
we're no better morally, as a society, than the butchers we do business
with. We, as hardworking and basically moral, giving Americans, just don't
see it that way because of our "distance".
We aren't fully aware of our culpability. We don't get the full story on
the news. We sit between two large oceans and don't have to hear the cries
or see the blood run.
How do we love third world nations as ourselves? For starters base your
relationships not on profit but on seeing to it that people have the same
ability to meet same basic needs we have. Life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness. Clean water. Basic medical care. The ability for the people to
choose how their resources are to be managed and how the resultant wealth is
to be employed.
They can work their way up to other necessities like cell phones, game
cubes, plasma tv's, suv's, "South Park" and "The Man Show" as they see fit.
Oh, are you finished? I prefer the liberty I was born with in my
society to the tyranny and despotism I see happening in other
societies around the world. See how easy that is?
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| User: "cesar" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 12:28:21 PM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag. You're called to serve
love
first. You're called to serve justice. You are called to love Him
totally.
Patriotism, at it's core, is idolatry.
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Right on, Brother! And Love has no enemies.
cesar
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 10:46:59 AM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:kLOdnVRRB5X1cNTdRVn-jw@locallink.net...
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
Agree... from what I read of it anyway.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag. You're called to serve
love
first. You're called to serve justice. You are called to love Him
totally.
Patriotism, at it's core, is idolatry.
Gee... except for definitions of 'Justice', 'serve' and who 'Him' is...
that's an extemely astute and intelligent post!
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Again, I agree... dang... perhaps there's hope for our species yet!
.... only 35 billion years left to the end of our Universe to prove it
though...
.... and only 5 billion left until our sun dies.
As an aside:
It would only take us about another hundred years to create a true silicon
based lifeform that has (probably) never existed in nature before... one
that is theoriticaly possible, but through the laws of Nature shouldn't.
Maybe that's what we organic species are designed for... to evolve to the
point of being able to create a 'non-carbon' based lifeform.
Although a repugnant idea... one which could perhaps be considered 'lifeform
type' betrayal... that idea appeals to me more than 'spreading' religious
doctrine and dogma to the stars, perhaps resulting in the suffering of
untold billions or trillions of other 'organics'.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 06:42:21 PM |
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"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7gn2c.21930$yZ1.8314@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Gee... except for definitions of 'Justice', 'serve' and who 'Him' is...
that's an extemely astute and intelligent post!
Gee, Mark, you sound surprised. :-)
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Again, I agree... dang... perhaps there's hope for our species yet!
What, because there's at least one born again believer in the world with
perfect discernment? :-)
You're going to be all over me from now on aren't you? :-)
... only 35 billion years left to the end of our Universe to prove it
though...
... and only 5 billion left until our sun dies.
My brethren and I will be long gone by then, buddy. :-)
As an aside:
It would only take us about another hundred years to create a true silicon
based lifeform that has (probably) never existed in nature before... one
that is theoriticaly possible, but through the laws of Nature shouldn't.
Maybe that's what we organic species are designed for... to evolve to the
point of being able to create a 'non-carbon' based lifeform.
My brethren and I will be long gone by then, buddy.
Although a repugnant idea... one which could perhaps be considered
'lifeform
type' betrayal... that idea appeals to me more than 'spreading' religious
doctrine and dogma to the stars, perhaps resulting in the suffering of
untold billions or trillions of other 'organics'.
Well, I couldn't agree with you more. We become complete when we find
consummation with pure Love. We won't be spreading anything anywhere until
we are carried across that threshold.
Enjoy......................
.
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 01:06:02 AM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:EYqdnZQbNJVD7dfdRVn-hg@locallink.net...
Gee... except for definitions of 'Justice', 'serve' and who 'Him' is...
that's an extemely astute and intelligent post!
Gee, Mark, you sound surprised. :-)
Surprised, no....
Pleased, yes...
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Again, I agree... dang... perhaps there's hope for our species yet!
What, because there's at least one born again believer in the world with
perfect discernment? :-)
Heh, heh... and you've a sense of humour as well!
But no, it's not about 'born again' or 'believer'... it's about thinking
about what we may be doing... what we ARE doing...
You're post is an important 'piece' of a bigger pie... deception is a bad
thing... but it takes 'effort' on an individuals part to avoid it... it's so
easy to believe what we are told.
.... and 'effort' seems to be sadly lacking in the current generation.
:(
You're going to be all over me from now on aren't you? :-)
Well... I enjoy reading posts that give me pause to stop and reflect...
those that give me reason to question my own beliefs...
.... and I often enjoy questioning anothers beliefs... and in particular, how
they were derived.
Sometimes a 'recalibration' is a very good thing.
;)
... only 35 billion years left to the end of our Universe to prove it
though...
... and only 5 billion left until our sun dies.
My brethren and I will be long gone by then, buddy. :-)
Well... technically ALL of us will be long gone by then.
(Except me, of course).
Well, I couldn't agree with you more. We become complete when we find
consummation with pure Love. We won't be spreading anything anywhere
until
we are carried across that threshold.
If that's the case... we may never reach the stars.
But I hope you're right... however, IF we manage to go off world... I see a
callous, unfeeling, and cold blooded 'organic' stomping across the stars...
squishing things it doesn't wish to understand... taking apart the things it
does.
No direction... no focus... just looking for dilithium, and a better black
bottom pie.
Ah, well... guess that beats staying at home watching another re-run of "I
love Lucy".
Enjoy......................
I have...
Thanks.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
07 Mar 2004 12:28:52 PM |
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"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uRz2c.22960$yZ1.10412@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:EYqdnZQbNJVD7dfdRVn-hg@locallink.net...
What, because there's at least one born again believer in the world with
perfect discernment? :-)
Heh, heh... and you've a sense of humour as well!
It's partly that and I always tell the truth as well. :-)
But no, it's not about 'born again' or 'believer'... it's about thinking
about what we may be doing... what we ARE doing...
And if you, (meaning you, me, DaarkSyde and others) can get establishment
Christians to start doing that, thinking, we may keep them from crucifying
the "next" messiah.
You're post is an important 'piece' of a bigger pie... deception is a bad
thing... but it takes 'effort' on an individuals part to avoid it... it's
so
easy to believe what we are told.
And we've been told "it" since we were old enough to understand words.
... and 'effort' seems to be sadly lacking in the current generation.
:(
Too much distraction, too many opiates out there. Fill your eyes with
glitter and glamor and miss the heart issues.
You're going to be all over me from now on aren't you? :-)
Well... I enjoy reading posts that give me pause to stop and reflect...
those that give me reason to question my own beliefs...
... and I often enjoy questioning anothers beliefs... and in particular,
how
they were derived.
Yup, and it's definitely important to be challenged. It provokes us to
growth. I don't know how much time I'm going to be able to being provoked
on apn but it's been fun so far.
Sometimes a 'recalibration' is a very good thing.
;)
Absolutley.
My brethren and I will be long gone by then, buddy. :-)
Well... technically ALL of us will be long gone by then.
(Except me, of course).
Well, of course. :-)
Well, I couldn't agree with you more. We become complete when we find
consummation with pure Love. We won't be spreading anything anywhere
until
we are carried across that threshold.
If that's the case... we may never reach the stars.
I believe that consummation is our inheritance. We may not find it here but
if we at least make that heart contact here we'll find union beyond this
place.
But I hope you're right... however, IF we manage to go off world... I see
a
callous, unfeeling, and cold blooded 'organic' stomping across the
stars...
squishing things it doesn't wish to understand... taking apart the things
it
does.
It may be likely we destroy ourselves or drive ourselves back to the stone
age before we start polluting the universe.
No direction... no focus... just looking for dilithium, and a better black
bottom pie.
Never had it. Maybe I should do more searching here.
Ah, well... guess that beats staying at home watching another re-run of "I
love Lucy".
Between that and living in "The Twilight Zone"................... :-)
Enjoy......................
I have...
Thanks.
Me too.
.
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| User: "DaarkSyde" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 11:43:05 AM |
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On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:21:28 -0500, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
Bravo, Daark, bravo. Keep it coming.
This is a tad harsher than the way I'd put it but nails the situation
clearly.
For my Christian brethren------------ be careful not to take your
comfortable cushy lives and blindly attach your loyalty to an economic
system, a leader, a political party or a flag. You're called to serve love
first. You're called to serve justice. You are called to love Him totally.
Patriotism, at it's core, is idolatry.
Exactly. I have no love for any government in this world, in fact
haven't even voted in 25 years, why bother they are all the same once
they are in office, power,corruption,greed, and deception
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Hahahah and this group is full of deception and lies, takes a lot of
wading to get through all the crap. People have to take everything for
what it's worth these days and test all things to find what actually
is true.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods |
06 Mar 2004 06:54:45 PM |
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"DaarkSyde" <DaarkSyde@GrantlandSucks.com> wrote in message
news:q63k409d9lgouco7uu54leffh1fqlobj4i@4ax.com...
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:21:28 -0500, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
Patriotism, at it's core, is idolatry.
Exactly. I have no love for any government in this world, in fact
haven't even voted in 25 years, why bother they are all the same once
they are in office, power,corruption,greed, and deception
It's all a stacked deck. One ideology with two competing factions anywhere
there's any democracy. You won't gain power without gaining the approval of
the elite.
Kerry vs. Bush? Come on folks, you've got two candidates that have long
pedigrees among the Eastern Establishment, both Harvard Skull and Bones,
both feeding friends and family, using government as another means of
maximizing power and wealth. It's the way the system has worked for over
two hundred years.
It's like one of our founding fathers, John Jay, said, "The only people that
should be running this country are the ones that own it".
Deception is a formidable aspect of these end times.
Hahahah and this group is full of deception and lies, takes a lot of
wading to get through all the crap. People have to take everything for
what it's worth these days and test all things to find what actually
is true.
Keep pulling on the threads...................
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Laughter of the Gods/Steve |
06 Mar 2004 07:31:12 PM |
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On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 10:21:28 -0500, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
It's all a stacked deck. One ideology with two competing factions
anywhere
there's any democracy. You won't gain power without gaining the approval
of
the elite.
Kerry vs. Bush? Come on folks, you've got two candidates that have long
pedigrees among the Eastern Establishment, both Harvard Skull and Bones,
both feeding friends and family, using government as another means of
maximizing power and wealth.
If I'm such a big guy about democracy, discussion, and respecting debate
then I want to also take the exchanges coming up here with Steven Douglas
respectfully. Only if he's interested. I want this to be
non-confrontational.
Steven, I want to gather some things up and present them here. I'll
probably do that tomorrow, I've had a long week and had to work today. I'm
getting old and I get goofy from fatigue earlier. A little R and R is in
order.
To keep this open would you be interested in doing a Google search on George
H. W. Bush and The Carlyle Group given my statement above? Also John
(Forbes) Kerry and C. Stewart Forbes and Collier's International.
What I can do is provide you with some information about Prescott Bush, the
current president's grandfather, and holdings he had thru Brown Brothers
Harriman Bank in GERMAN industry from 1920 thru 1942 that were confiscated
from him and the Dulles brothers thru the Trading With the Enemy Act in
1942. It's a matter of public record.
We need to know what we're patriotic about. This is only part of the story.
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