I found this hand crafted silver piece in a pawn shop 21 years ago. It
is believed to be a Shaman's necklace, meant for protection and I am
trying to find out if it is Native American, Aztec, whatever!
Anybody have any knowledge of this?
http://community-2.webtv.net/tugbertswife/eerienecklace/
I posted this almost a year ago in a Shamanism related ng and had no
luck in fact THEY are as curious as I am now and would like to know what
I find out.
Thanks,
SuZanne
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
10 Jul 2005 09:56:15 PM |
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I'm no expert on things like this, but based on the material used, I would date it as
sometime from the 70's.
It has the appearance of a necklace that might have been worn by a High Priest at a
Devil / Occult worship group. The 70's was a high point for Occult Worship amongst the
'Very Rich' (hence the use of Silver and Tiger Eye / Sapphire jewelry).
Just A Thought.
:-()
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
11 Jul 2005 05:46:35 AM |
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someone@microsoft.com (John=A0Smith)
wrote:
I'm no expert on things like this, but
based on the material used, I would
date it as sometime from the 70's.
You dated it based on the fact that it's made with silver and Tiger Eye?
Um...that technique seems very unreliable and unlikely.
It is highly possible that it was made in the 70's based on that I have
had it for 21 years myself, the fact I found it in a pawn shop and it
didn't look new when I got it.
It has the appearance of a necklace that
might have been worn by a High Priest
at a Devil / Occult worship group.
Nothing what-so-ever to do with devil worship. I wouldn't have anything
like that in my possession...believe me.
The 70's was a high point for Occult
Worship amongst the 'Very Rich'
(hence the use of Silver and Tiger Eye /
Sapphire jewelry).
Well, it was a "high point" in Hollywood movie making. ;)
And as I stated, we do not know what type of stone the sapphire blue
stone is....it isn't Sapphire.
It has more to do with POOR as opposed to the RICH (hence the high
content of nickel in the silver.)
Just A Thought.
I do thank you for your opinion.
SuZanne
:-()
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
11 Jul 2005 10:18:47 PM |
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I did mention the Occult (as well as Devil Worship). I do realize you bought it USED
!!!
The pattern resembles a Wolf (also a highly respected Cult during the 70's).
But my main reason for picking a time frame Post 1960s is due to the use of Silver
over Nickel (both expensive metals of that time, almost as expensive as Gold - back
then). But the 'overlaid' crafting is similar to multiple cut-outs of Nickel [bonded
together] with a Silver 'overcoat' to give the appearance of a "one piece crafting".
Do not assume that this makes it worthless, as ART DECO (and especially Occult
Collectables), fetch a high market value on eBay !!! (Especially, if you can prove it
as being of Occultist Origin.)
Again, Just A Thought.
:-)
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
13 Jul 2005 12:36:40 PM |
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someone@microsoft.com (John=A0Smith)
wrote:
I did mention the Occult (as well as Devil
Worship). I do realize you bought it
USED !!!
Okay! The word DEVIL just stuck and I must have missed "occult" :)
The pattern resembles a Wolf (also a
highly respected Cult during the 70's).
I agree. Could be.
But my main reason for picking a time
frame Post 1960s is due to the use of
Silver over Nickel (both expensive
metals of that time, almost as expensive
as Gold - back then). But the 'overlaid'
Yes, it has 2 layers or an 'overlay'.
crafting is similar to multiple cut-outs of
Nickel [bonded together] with a Silver
'overcoat' to give the appearance of a
"one piece crafting".
Are you saying silver plating over nickel? Because this doesn't tarnish
like silver does. For instance, the new chain has turned black and the
other is just as shiney and silver as ever. If it was silver plated,
then it would tarnish. Am I correct?
Do not assume that this makes it
worthless, as ART DECO (and
especially Occult Collectables), fetch a
high market value on eBay !!!
(Especially, if you can prove it as being
of Occultist Origin.)
I have no interest in selling it or the value of it...I just think it is
a very interesting piece with an equally interesting history about it,
which is why I am trying to find out more about it.
Again, Just A Thought.
:-)
Thanks, I do appreciate it.
SuZanne
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| User: "The CO" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
10 Jul 2005 11:59:49 PM |
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Su Zanadu wrote:
I found this hand crafted silver piece in a pawn shop 21 years ago. It
is believed to be a Shaman's necklace, meant for protection and I am
It has a 'mass produced' look and the combination of silver and nickel
suggests recent manufacture. The face style is somewhat reminiscent of
Aztec, but I suspect it's nothing specific but rather somthing knocked
up in quantity for sale to tourists, possibly Mexican or South American
origin.
I'd say it was probably about 30-40 years old at most.
--
The CO
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
11 Jul 2005 06:06:19 AM |
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The Co wrote:
It has a 'mass produced' look and the
combination of silver and nickel
suggests recent manufacture.
Definitely a ONE of a KIND made by a skilled silversmith. Also....each
stone is imperfect in size and shape and color.
If it were "mass produced" then I wouldn't be having such a hard time
finding info on it.
The face style is somewhat reminiscent
of Aztec, but I suspect it's nothing
specific but rather somthing knocked up
in quantity for sale to tourists, possibly
Mexican or South American origin.
again.....ONE of a KIND. I am AS sure of that as I am of my name.
When it came into my possession it even had a hand-made chain on it.
Each link was hand soldered. I had my jeweler solder a new *more* sturdy
chain on it.
I'd say it was probably about 30-40 years
old at most.
That sounds reasonable.
Thanks...
SuZanne
--
The CO
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| User: "The CO" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
11 Jul 2005 10:34:15 AM |
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Su Zanadu wrote:
The Co wrote:
It has a 'mass produced' look and the
combination of silver and nickel
suggests recent manufacture.
Definitely a ONE of a KIND made by a skilled silversmith.
Hmmmm, likely to be native workmanship then. An analysis of the metal
would likely indicate the source, but I doubt you want to get that
elaborate. The 'mass produced' look is probably still a valid
statement, doesn't mean it's not a one off, but it has that 'touristy'
appearance to me.
Also....each
stone is imperfect in size and shape and color.
Again, suggests native or someone close to the source of all the raw
material.
If it were "mass produced" then I wouldn't be having such a hard time
finding info on it.
Mmmm, and yet a high proportion of nickel suggests it was made to a
price, so it was made with a market in mind. If it was a one off, I
would still suggest it was made for the tourist trade, main question
is where.
The face style is somewhat reminiscent
of Aztec, but I suspect it's nothing
specific but rather somthing knocked up
in quantity for sale to tourists, possibly
Mexican or South American origin.
again.....ONE of a KIND. I am AS sure of that as I am of my name.
In that case, likely some native workmanship for that market. It has
that 'touristy' look. Style suggests South America, might be Central,
but I get a feeling more likley to be South American.
If we assume for a moment that it was made by a native smith, he would
be using local materials. Semiprecious stones, silver and nickel is
strongly suggestive of Central/South America as is the style of the
face, which has definite Aztec or Inca stylism, I'd need to look at
some references to be sure, but perhaps more in the Inca style.
When it came into my possession it even had a hand-made chain on it.
Each link was hand soldered. I had my jeweler solder a new *more* sturdy
chain on it.
Again, that sounds like native workmanship. Making a silver chain by
hand is very labour intensive, suggests that it was better value for him
to invest some hours doing that than to buy a cheap premanufactured
chain - suggests that the maker needs to minimise his costs, his labour
costing him only time.
If it was native manufacture, I would suggest an archaeologist with
expertise in Central and South American native art would be likely to be
able to shed some light. Try the nearest university with an Archaeology
Faculty. Send them some pictures.
I'm somewhat surprised your jeweller couldn't identify the blue stone,
it looks very much like a sapphire, the only other I can think of that
can have that colour (though it's difficult to gauge the hue exactly in
a photo) would be Blue Topaz. The deepest Blue Topaz shade is called
London Blue and it is the most sought after. Again, that fits with
South America, Brazil particularly is famous for it.
Did he try and do a hardness test? That can be very useful.
Sapphire is the next hardest gemstone after diamond.
I'd say it was probably about 30-40 years
old at most.
That sounds reasonable.
Hard to be exact, but give or take 10 years is probably close.
Obviously over 20 considering you've had it 21.
Thanks...
Welcome, sorry I can't be more specific.
--
The CO
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
11 Jul 2005 06:03:03 PM |
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Su Zanadu wrote:
I found this hand crafted silver piece in a pawn shop 21 years ago. It
is believed to be a Shaman's necklace, meant for protection and I am
trying to find out if it is Native American, Aztec, whatever!
Anybody have any knowledge of this?
http://community-2.webtv.net/tugbertswife/eerienecklace/
I posted this almost a year ago in a Shamanism related ng and had no
luck in fact THEY are as curious as I am now and would like to know what
I find out.
Thanks,
SuZanne
What are the dimensions, and what kind of markings are on the back?
(Silversmiths leave a mark on their pieces).
Woods
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
11 Jul 2005 11:11:46 PM |
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Woods wrote:
What are the dimensions, and what kind
of markings are on the back?
6 inches by 2 inches.
There are no marks or symbols on the back. If it was made by a Shaman
for somebody else then maybe they would not put their stamp on it?
The best info I have received on it so far was once while I was wearing
it. A man saw it and stopped to talk to me about it. He told me it was a
shaman's piece used as protection.
It is some type of animal spirit, a wolf or tiger maybe, not sure.
Each stone represents a certain energy or power.
(Silversmiths leave a mark on their
pieces).
Not necessarily...I have a few turquoise rings and bracelets and only
one has a symbol stamped on the back. One ring has nothing at all a few
have at least a silver stamp.
You can NEVER find a shaman when you NEED one! There aren't any even
listed in the phone book. ;)
SuZanne
Woods
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
13 Jul 2005 05:22:57 AM |
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It would look good with a Burkha, that would have them guessing!
@:}
LB
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
12 Jul 2005 04:48:11 PM |
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Su Zanadu wrote:
Woods wrote:
What are the dimensions, and what kind
of markings are on the back?
6 inches by 2 inches.
There are no marks or symbols on the back. If it was made by a Shaman
for somebody else then maybe they would not put their stamp on it?
I don't think I've ever heard of a Shaman that was also a silversmith.
Most silversmiths put their signature (mark) on their works, same as
potters or any other artisans. (Put another way, I've never seen
anything crafted by a silversmith that did not have his/her mark put on
it somewhere).
The best info I have received on it so far was once while I was wearing
it. A man saw it and stopped to talk to me about it. He told me it was a
shaman's piece used as protection.
Um ... well, .... unless you know the qualifications of the individual
who told you that, that could be just so much hooey. If it were for
protection, I would think it would have (1)had a stronger chain and
(2)not been pawned.
It is some type of animal spirit, a wolf or tiger maybe, not sure.
A representation, probably not the spirit itself. It would be unlikely
to be an animal that is not American (North/South).
Each stone represents a certain energy or power.
Each stone *has* certain energies or power, not represents.
(Silversmiths leave a mark on their
pieces).
Not necessarily...I have a few turquoise rings and bracelets and only
one has a symbol stamped on the back. One ring has nothing at all a few
have at least a silver stamp.
I wouldn't put much stock in having a silver stamp, but if it doesn't
have a silversmith mark on it, I'd be suspect.
You can NEVER find a shaman when you NEED one! There aren't any even
listed in the phone book. ;)
I know someone who's been all over the world and knows a lot of
shamanistic/native type stuff. I'll try to remember to ask her to take
a look when she comes back from vacation.
Woods
SuZanne
Woods
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
13 Jul 2005 01:51:17 PM |
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Wood wrote:
SuZanne wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard of a Shaman
that was also a silversmith. Most
silversmiths put their signature (mark)
on their works, same as potters or any
other artisans. (Put another way, I've
never seen anything crafted by a
silversmith that did not have his/her
mark put on it somewhere).
Could have worn off? Who knows...not I.
The best info I have received on it so
far was once while I was wearing it. A
man saw it and stopped to talk to me
about it. He told me it was a shaman's
piece used as protection.
Um ... well, .... unless you know the
qualifications of the individual who told
you that, that could be just so much
hooey.
I was very impressed with the encounter and he did seem genuinely
knowledgable. Now that was at the least 10 years ago because I was
pregnant with my daughter at the time, so I could have mixed up some of
what I remember. I distinctly remember he used the words "used for
protection" and that it was "more of an aggressor".
If it were for protection, I would think it
would have (1)had a stronger chain and
(2)not been pawned.
Unfortunately, when I told the man about putting a new chain on it he
said the original chain was equally important to it as the rest of it.
The links on the original chain had a dull/flat hand hammered texture to
it.
It had a 'clinky' or chime sound like a metal slinky is the best way I
can think to describe it.
As far as it being in a pawn shop has no relevancy to where it came from
or what it means. Peoples most valued possessions end up in pawn shops.
Usually they put them in there with intentions on getting them back and
for financial reasons (which is what brought them there to begin with),
they end up losing it to the pawn shop.
It is some type of animal spirit, a wolf >>or tiger maybe, not sure.
A representation, probably not the spirit
itself. It would be unlikely to be an
animal that is not American
(North/South).
I was just trying to describe what the design *is*...not what is
*inside* it. ;)
Indians believe we have animal spirit guides that protect us.
Each stone represents a certain energy
or power.
Each stone *has* certain energies or
power, not represents.
I am just trying to describe from a neutral position...maybe my wording
isn't the best. If I knew for certain that it contained power then I
suspect I would have already turned a few people into toads! }:-D
he he he!
(Silversmiths leave a mark on their
pieces).
Not necessarily...I have a few turquoise
rings and bracelets and only one has a
symbol stamped on the back. One ring
has nothing at all a few have at least a
silver stamp.
I wouldn't put much stock in having a
silver stamp, but if it doesn't have a
silversmith mark on it, I'd be suspect.
I believe the silver stamp is a US law in effect NOW for consumers
protection anyway...I don't believe this was sold in the retail market.
That's just my opinion of this so far. That may of course change later.
You can NEVER find a shaman when
you NEED one! There aren't any even
listed in the phone book. ;)
I know someone who's been all over the
world and knows a lot of
shamanistic/native type stuff. I'll try to
remember to ask her to take a look
when she comes back from vacation.
Thanks, that would be great. I am much better with my camera now than I
was when I took those shots...maybe I can get some better ones up
because I don't believe they do it justice. It really is remarkable
looking.
SuZanne
Woods
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
13 Jul 2005 06:54:40 PM |
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What about Voodoo, could that be it, or is it one of Mr T's cuff links?
LB
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Need help finding the origin of this...this THING! |
14 Jul 2005 05:15:47 AM |
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leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:
What about Voodoo, could that be it, or
is it one of Mr T's cuff links? LB
Not Voodoo....and not for Mr T.
It's not a booby bauble for Ms. Jackson neither!
SuZanne
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