Conclusion:
Revelation 20:8
"8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four
quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to
battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
From the above we know that Gog(Agog)and Magog is not just from the
east or west but the FULL SECTION of the EARTH...ONLY the Mongol
Empire stretched that much from Angol Hungary to Mongolia and then to
the South of China.
From Part 2 that I posted: We know that Magog is an Ancient Race which
also has dominion over the Ancient ISLES of MESHECH and TUBAL (which
built boats for the old nation TYRUS).
Magog can't be Russia which is an ancient and stretches from two
quarters of the Earth (East to West) but doesn't really have Isles and
doesn't resemble Revelations four quarters of the Earth.
Magog can't be the British Isles which is not that Ancient of a Nation
nor as wide as Revaltions specifies.
Therefore in Conclusion Magog is most likely the Mongol Empire:
Only the Mongol Empire is that Ancient and stretches that much over
the Earth (Hungary-West, Mongolia-East, China+Taiwan-South East) and
the only Ancient Isles which could have traded with TYRUS (South of
ancient Babylon) would most likely be Taiwan and either Korea or
Japan!
--------------------------------------
I'd be interested if someone else could point out what other Ancient
ISLES of MESHECH AND TUBAL and could have also traded with the Ancient
TYRUS nation.
(From part 1: We know that Gog the Race that has dominion over MESHECH
and TUBAL is from the North of Isreal... which I defined as the
ANGOLS)
.
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| User: "Nobody special" |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
18 Dec 2003 07:52:35 PM |
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"Peter K." <guskz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f35df4b.0312181554.3ffbd42c@posting.google.com...
<SNIP>
I'd be interested if someone else could point out what other Ancient
ISLES of MESHECH AND TUBAL and could have also traded with the Ancient
TYRUS nation.
(From part 1: We know that Gog the Race that has dominion over MESHECH
and TUBAL is from the North of Isreal... which I defined as the
ANGOLS)
===========================
OK, Peter. I have reread your earlier
"parts" and now see where you have
gone astray.
Eze 26:2- The KJV has rendered
the name "Tyrus" which is a rough
transliteration of the Greek "Tiros".
The original Hebrew, however says
"Tzor". The Hebrew and English
lexicon of 1854 by Wm. Gesenius
says "Tyre, Gr. Tiros, from an
Aramaic form "Turo", the celebrated
and opulant emporium of Phonicia
of which the most ancient and
strongly fortified part Palaetyrus
was situated on the continent, and
the more modern part on an island
over against the former.
The domestic name "Tzor" is found
..........and also in inscriptions on
Tyrian coins struck in the time of
Seleucidae.
At the present day its ruins lie upon
a peninsula, Alexander the Great
having joined the Island to the
continent by a mole."
The NIV renders Eze. 26:2 as
"Tyre".
The Stone Edition of the "Tanach",
a modern Jewish work, says "Tyre".
When Solomon decided to build
the temple, he contacted king Huran
of Tyre to supply lumber out of
Lebanon. In 2 Chr 3 the place
in question is rendered "Tyre".
nobody special
================================
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| User: "Peter K." |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
19 Dec 2003 06:29:40 AM |
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lexicon of 1854 by Wm. Gesenius
says "Tyre, Gr. Tiros, from an
Aramaic form "Turo", the celebrated
and opulant emporium of Phonicia
of which the most ancient and
strongly fortified part Palaetyrus
was situated on the continent, and
the more modern part on an island
over against the former.
....
At the present day its ruins lie upon
a peninsula, Alexander the Great
having joined the Island to the
continent by a mole."
.....
When Solomon decided to build
the temple, he contacted king Huran
of Tyre to supply lumber out of
Lebanon. In 2 Chr 3 the place
in question is rendered "Tyre".
1. Your above statements are correct and based on an ISLE just
South-West of Lebanon coast in the Meditarean See. But there is some
debate about this as a definite location. One thing is certain the
ISLE exist no more as God said he would flood it (erase it):
"I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be
sought
for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord
GOD." (Ezekiel 26:14, 19-21)
2. As well South-West of Lebanon is NOT South of Babylon as what "most
likely seems to be" stated here:
"Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a
king of kings, from the *****NORTH*****, with horses, and with
chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people." (Ezekiel
26:2-7)
3. Also possibly the TYRUS ISLE "may" have been not too far from the
MECHESH and TUBAL ISLES (possibly the southern Isles of Taiwan, Korea
or Japan) *if* TYRUS was also TIRAS the brother of both Mechesh and
Tubal in Genesis:
Genesis 10:1
"1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and
Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2 The sons of
Japheth; Gomer, and MAGOG, and Madai, and Javan, and TUBAL, and
MECHESH, and TIRAS."
Notice below how TIRAS, MECHESH, TUBAL ****AS WELL AS***** MAGOG are
all brothers (they are the very OLDEST nations since they're the
grandson's of Noah) that may have DECIDED to all live beside each
other: (Mongolia, China, Taiwan, Korea, and possibly Japan)
Magog and his brother ISLES MECHESH and TUBAL (Mongolia to China and
the ISLES of Taiwan, Korea, and perhaps Japan). And Agog perhaps the
Angols North of Isreal.
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| User: "Peter K." |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
19 Dec 2003 07:14:18 AM |
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As previously stated the Birthright is very important in the Bible and
each of the early children was PROMISED to become a NATION (or even
Empire)...
To Continue:
IF MECHESH AND TUBAL are the smaller ISLES OF TAIWAN and KOREA
(perhaps Japan) and the Big Brother is GOMER (CHINA)
As well through these many years the smaller ISLES MECHESH and TUBAL
(TAIWAN and Korea) have been stronger than their big older Brother
China (GOMER) until only recently. Their independance fight may start
a war with their big brothers Gomer China and Magog Mongolia ....
It is already well believed that Palestine is the older step-brother
of Jacob Israel and both are fighting to this very day over their
father's land Abraham.
The quarrel represented by the fault of Abraham's lack of FAITH in
God's promise and instead comitted adultery and got his first child
not from his wife but from his servant instead.
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| User: "Nobody special" |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
19 Dec 2003 07:56:33 PM |
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"Peter K." <guskz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f35df4b.0312190514.45f321f8@posting.google.com...
As previously stated the Birthright is very important in the Bible and
each of the early children was PROMISED to become a NATION (or even
Empire)...
To Continue:
IF MECHESH AND TUBAL are the smaller ISLES OF TAIWAN and KOREA
(perhaps Japan) and the Big Brother is GOMER (CHINA)
As well through these many years the smaller ISLES MECHESH and TUBAL
(TAIWAN and Korea) have been stronger than their big older Brother
China (GOMER) until only recently. Their independance fight may start
a war with their big brothers Gomer China and Magog Mongolia ....
It is already well believed that Palestine is the older step-brother
of Jacob Israel and both are fighting to this very day over their
father's land Abraham.
The quarrel represented by the fault of Abraham's lack of FAITH in
God's promise and instead comitted adultery and got his first child
not from his wife but from his servant instead.
==========================
Peter,
Your theory is still based on incorrect
data and misunderstood scripture.
As an example: You understand
the phrase "vessels of brass" in
Eze. 27:13 to mean "boats". A
vessel of brass is nothing more
than a bowl, a cup, a pitcher. There
is nothing to indicate that Tubal and
Meshech were isles. Javan became
the Greek peoples and his sons
populated the Isles of Rhodes,
Cyprus, Sicily and the Northern
Mediteranian shore from Turkey
to Spain. Furthermore, even
Josephus in his Antiquities of the
Jews knew the location of these
tribes. Modern linguistic and
anthropologic scholorship
confirms the spread of Noah's
offspring as well as migrations
of the 10 tribes of Israel with
little disagreement.
Meshech and Tubal were first
settled in the area of Armenia.
Josephus even mentions the
names of their capitol cities.
Tubal known later as Tibareni,
called by the Assyrians as Tubla.
They moved north, probably Tubolsk.
Meshech called by the Assyrians
as Muskaa, classically as Moskhi.
Eventually moved north, later, Muscovy,
probably Moscow preserve their name.
Magog , the Land of Gog. Josephus
says they became the Scythians.
The Russians, eventually.
This is not the whole story, only a
piece. You should do a Google search
for "Japheth" which will lead to many
sites with this information.
no more from me
nobody special
============================
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| User: "Peter K." |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
21 Dec 2003 05:02:01 PM |
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Peter,
Your theory is still based on incorrect
data and misunderstood scripture.
As an example: You understand
the phrase "vessels of brass" in
Eze. 27:13 to mean "boats". A
vessel of brass is nothing more
than a bowl, a cup, a pitcher.
PRO:
Very good nobody, you are correct. I noticed another place in the
Bible mentions
vessels of Brass taken from the church's temple.
I thought the Bible would emphasize Tyrus's power more than wealth.
I guess also back then Brass was considered a wealth.
I thought they were boats covered/reinforced with brass (or
sheets/shields of brass) as opposed to wooden ships to demonstrate how
such a small location could be considered a major adversary to other
kingdoms of that time.......
There
is nothing to indicate that Tubal and
Meshech were isles. Javan became
the Greek peoples and his sons
populated the Isles of Rhodes,
Cyprus, Sicily and the Northern
Mediteranian shore from Turkey
to Spain.
CON:
I still believe Tubal and Meshech are Isles. The Bible repeats itself
almost ALWAYS such as in Daniel's Greece nation(repeated in three
separate chapters) and Magog is re-mentioned over and over (Javan is
not mentioned in Ezechial's Armageddon).
Therefore:
Ezechial below combines Magog with ISLES (Magog and his brother
nations). No other nations other than Tubal and Meshech are combined
with Magog in the Bible that may be ISLES (plural therefore a MINUMUM
Pair of nations within a specific region previously mentioned together
in the Bible). MESHECH and TUBAL are the only pair (plural) that are
always combined with Gog and Magog in other chapters of Ezechial.
Further MESHECH and TUBAL are nations not cities(Moscow..although
possibly the meaning the whole west of Russia as well) that are worthy
of being brothers of another nation Magog: all are sons of Japheth
(God promises all early children as nations and not cities:
Isreal/Jacob is a nation not a city.
Ezechial 38:2
"2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief
prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,"
Ezechial 39:6
"6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell
carelessly in the ***ISLES***: and they shall know that I am the
LORD."
Gog above more likely tends to mean a descendance of Magog (from the
land of Magog, Russia is not from Magog/Mongol descendance) and not
vice-versa. The Angols are a mixed breed with Mongol blood and not
vice-versa. Like Greece was leader and a separate nation, I believe
Gog is a separate nation from Meshech and Tubal therefore not
Russia(Gog) formed by Moscow and Siberia.
PRO:
It's all possible though because Russia was formed by the Mongol
Empire as a state of the Mongol Empire. It was the very last to become
independant of the Mongol Dynasty in around 1500 AD...
Furthermore, even
Josephus in his Antiquities of the
Jews knew the location of these
tribes. Modern linguistic and
anthropologic scholorship
confirms the spread of Noah's
offspring as well as migrations
of the 10 tribes of Israel with
little disagreement.
Meshech and Tubal were first
settled in the area of Armenia.
Josephus even mentions the
names of their capitol cities.
Tubal known later as Tibareni,
called by the Assyrians as Tubla.
They moved north, probably Tubolsk.
Meshech called by the Assyrians
as Muskaa, classically as Moskhi.
Eventually moved north, later, Muscovy,
probably Moscow preserve their name.
Magog , the Land of Gog. Josephus
says they became the Scythians.
The Russians, eventually.
This is not the whole story, only a
piece. You should do a Google search
for "Japheth" which will lead to many
sites with this information.
PRO:
Good statement. For a nobody you have studied very well. They could
very well be Moscow (City represents west nation of Russia and Siberia
represents the East). As well nobody attacks from the North as large
as Armageddon without having there backs covered (AKA Russia has
nothing above them).
As well when the Babylon King attacks Tyrus from the North...it maybe
specifying Syria as one of his kingdoms attacking.
CON: others believe Siberia is Ezekiel 38:6 explains it: "The house of
Togarmah in the uttermost parts of the north, and all his bands"
(uttermost meaning the VERY MOST NORTH)
.
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| User: "Peter K." |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
19 Dec 2003 07:05:20 AM |
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Genesis 10:1
"1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and
Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2 The sons of
Japheth; Gomer, and MAGOG, and Madai, and Javan, and TUBAL, and
MECHESH, and TIRAS."
Don't have the time to verify if the Brother names above are by order
of age but if so TIRAS (being possibly the destroyed nation TYRUS) is
the very youngest.
Seems to go in line with what God does: HE uplifts the most humble
(smallest) and lowers the PROUD...just as he did we King David the
youngest of his brothers.
As well Tyrus became so BIG, God then compared that nation to SATAN
himself and because of the PRIDE God "completely" wiped away the TYRUS
nation.
If Gomer is older (thus bigger) than MAGOG, perhaps then Gomer is
China (Bigger and more populated), MAGOG is Mongolia (smaller), and
the youngest brothers (smallest) are only ISLES, specifically the
TUBAL and MECHESH ISLES which could be TAIWAN, and Korea or Japan.
-----------------------
In the Bible all children were very important and were to become
nations. Even Essau had lost his authority over his brother and his
father proclamed by God that Essau would be a slave (under) his
younger brother.
Noah's three sons SHEM, HAM, and JAPHETH who is the last. These three
son's of Noah are not just three nation but must also be three Empires
of the World.
I believe JAPHETH to be the Mongol Empire (from Agog (Angol-Hungary)
to Magog (Mongol-China-Taiwan-Korea).
SHEM being the oldest should be the very largest Empire of
Earth...perhaps Europe-America which are the 10 toes\torns of Daniel
and some scholars believe perhaps also the descendance of Joseph the
youngest (and most beloved) Son of Jacob (Almost King in Egypt and
over his brothers).
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| User: "Peter K." |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
19 Dec 2003 06:39:21 AM |
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Information about TYRUS and a moderate possibility that perhaps it is
not an ILSE South-West of Lebanon in the Mediterean Sea at:
http://www.endtimeprophecy.org/Articles/Articles-Endt/satan-02.html
You must read the whole and not just the top to come to this
conclusion (as well I already showed a statement saying Babylon
attacked it coming from the NORTH).
Here is a pasted section of the above web link that states there is
still confusion (mid-way) about the actual location of Tyrus (remember
I also pasted a section previously that stated God in the Bible
completely submerged Tyrus):
It would be years later that Alexander
the Great would come along and build upon that same rubble
to construct a causway in order to plunder and destroy the
main island of Tyrus. So, just as the prophecies state,
Tyrus was destroyed; first the coastal town, and then the
main city. In a literal sense, to this day the original site
of Tyrus the island-city remains submerged under the waves
and is a place for casting fishing nets. Enemies of God
claim that the prophecy was never fulfilled because Tyre
still stands today. However, they fail to acknowledge that
the new city, which was visited by both Jesus and Paul, was
built on the coast a short distance south of the original
site which was an island. God's word was indeed fulfilled.
The prophets Isaiah, Amos and Zechariah also prophesied
against Tyrus. In fact, Jesus likewise spoke of the
destruction of both Tyre and Sidon, (another Phoenecian city
prophesied against in Ezekiel 28), just as He had likewise
used Sodom and Gomorrah as sybmols of God's wrath against
the wicked:
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| User: "Nobody special" |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
18 Dec 2003 07:00:50 PM |
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"Peter K." <guskz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f35df4b.0312181554.3ffbd42c@posting.google.com...
Conclusion:
Revelation 20:8
"8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four
quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to
battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
From the above we know that Gog(Agog)and Magog is not just from the
east or west but the FULL SECTION of the EARTH...ONLY the Mongol
Empire stretched that much from Angol Hungary to Mongolia and then to
the South of China.
=================================
Rev. 20:8 mentions the nations of the 4
quarters of the earth and then mentions
Gog and Magog. This does not say that
they are the only or major peoples of those
4 quarters. It just mentions them as being
among the nations. This gathering of the
nations occurs at the end of the 1000 year
reign of Yeshua so what does the ancient
area of the Mongols have to do with anything?.
Eze. 38:2 Tells us that Gog is a person and
Magog is a "land". Gog is the ruler of the
land of Magog, Meshech and Tubal of
"the north parts". Many or most bible
scholars equate them with Russia. Some
have gone so far to equate Meshech with
Moscow and Tubal with Tubalsk. This is
no more far fetched than your theory.
nobody special
================================
From Part 2 that I posted: We know that Magog is an Ancient Race which
also has dominion over the Ancient ISLES of MESHECH and TUBAL (which
built boats for the old nation TYRUS).
================================
Please, where have you discovered that
1. Magog is an ancient race?
2. Meshech and Tubal are ancient ISLES?
3. Where is Tyrus? Do you mean "Tyre"?
You say it is south of Babylon. I guess
I'd better research this. I guess you
could be right.
4. Why would a seafaring nation have
need of others to build their boats?
nobody special
================================
Magog can't be Russia which is an ancient and stretches from two
quarters of the Earth (East to West) but doesn't really have Isles and
doesn't resemble Revelations four quarters of the Earth.
================================
Your statement above is based on unfounded
conclusions
nobody special
================================
Magog can't be the British Isles which is not that Ancient of a Nation
nor as wide as Revaltions specifies.
================================
The British Isles "are not that ancient" ?????
oy vey
nobody special
================================
Therefore in Conclusion Magog is most likely the Mongol Empire:
Only the Mongol Empire is that Ancient and stretches that much over
the Earth (Hungary-West, Mongolia-East, China+Taiwan-South East) and
the only Ancient Isles which could have traded with TYRUS (South of
ancient Babylon) would most likely be Taiwan and either Korea or
Japan!
--------------------------------------
I'd be interested if someone else could point out what other Ancient
ISLES of MESHECH AND TUBAL and could have also traded with the Ancient
TYRUS nation.
(From part 1: We know that Gog the Race that has dominion over MESHECH
and TUBAL is from the North of Isreal... which I defined as the
ANGOLS)
.
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| User: "Peter K." |
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| Title: Re: Part 3 Conclusion: on Magog challenged |
19 Dec 2003 06:11:59 AM |
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Revelation 20:8
"8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four
quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to
battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."
=================================
Rev. 20:8 mentions the nations of the 4
quarters of the earth and then mentions
Gog and Magog. This does not say that
they are the only or major peoples of those
4 quarters. It just mentions them as being
among the nations.
Revelations above says Satan shall go out to deceive the nations of 4
quarters of Earth, Gog and Magog..... From that specific phrase it
seems more likely he is defining the Gog and Magog as an Empire of
nations stretching over 4 quarters of Earth.
Eze. 38:2 Tells us that Gog is a person and
Magog is a "land". Gog is the ruler of the
land of Magog, Meshech and Tubal of
"the north parts".
Most likely Gog is a nation which has higher authority/dominion over
the other nations but it's other nation just as larger/powerful is
Magog.
As in Daniel where one horn of the Ram is bigger than the other.
As well Daniel's Greece is the ruler (although still a nation) of the
other nations. A Greece Empire is not Greece alone but four or five
nations with Greece as the head (GREECE is both a
person/leader(Alexander the Geat) and a nation, and the GREECE Empire
is a series of nations with Greece at its head).
Many or most bible
scholars equate them with Russia. Some
have gone so far to equate Meshech with
Moscow and Tubal with Tubalsk.
Read Part 2: which specifies that both Meshech and Tubal were ISLES
and made boats(vessels) which they sold to TYRUS. Russia's Moscow is
not an island (those scholars did not research that much).
Please, where have you discovered that
1. Magog is an ancient race?
2. Meshech and Tubal are ancient ISLES?
3. Where is Tyrus? Do you mean "Tyre"?
You say it is south of Babylon. I guess
I'd better research this. I guess you
could be right.
All fully explained in Part 1 and 2 as you later agreed in your 2nd
post after reading them.
4. Why would a seafaring nation have
need of others to build their boats?
Tyrus was very wealthy and traded a lot and an Isle therefore needing
vessels which the ISLES MESHECH and TUBAL already were building: as
shown in Part 1 and 2.
nobody special
================================
Magog can't be Russia which is an ancient and stretches from two
quarters of the Earth (East to West) but doesn't really have Isles and
doesn't resemble Revelations four quarters of the Earth.
================================
Your statement above is based on unfounded
conclusions
Frosty Russian is less likely to have very large ISLES who's main
industry is vessels (MESHECH and TUBAL) and is only in the North as
opposed to Revelation's specifying the Empire is from the 4 quarters
of the Earth and not just the North)
nobody special
================================
Magog can't be the British Isles which is not that Ancient of a Nation
nor as wide as Revaltions specifies.
================================
The British Isles "are not that ancient" ?????
It means the British Isles were not as habitated during the
Tyrus/Babylon days.
As stated in parts 1 and 2: MESHECH and TUBAL and Noah's grandson's
and a nation older than Abraham's son ISRAEL (JACOB). The 2 billion
people of China/Mongolia/Taiwan fit that age length.
.
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