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Gee, a whole bunch of pictures of smiley happy Iraqis with thumbs and =
peace signs held up for the cameras. I seem to recall the same jubilancy =
the day the Americans rounded up a fake 'crowd' of Iraqis as the =
American G.I.'s were about to topple the big statue of Saddam before =
they beat 'him' with their shoes.=20
The same kind of jubilancy the day the Iraqis cornered and killed some =
American soldiers, setting them on fire and hoisting their ripped and =
charred bodies on a bridge.=20
The same kind of jubilancy and dancing in the streets, (along with the =
obligatory ululating fat old women in black robes) the day the =
Palestinians heard that their friend Osama bin Laden managed to bring =
down the Twin Towers in Manhattan, massacring 3,000 innocent Americans.=20
Holding an election is the easy part of democracy, much like invading =
and taking over a country is the easy part of war and conquest. The hard =
part is holding onto the gains, and keeping the momentum going by =
capturing the hearts and minds of the people affected. That's a trick =
few if any conquering nations have managed to handle, and when it comes =
to Bush's America and the oil-laden nation of Iraq, not one that future =
history books (as if) are very likely to describe as being anything =
better than the tragic, miserable failure it already has proven itself =
to be.=20
Look at Russia. They've given 'democracy' a shot for the past 16 years =
or so, and they're more destitute and backwards than they've ever been, =
and that's saying a lot. The only ones benefiting from the whole =
enterprise there, not surprisingly, are a miniscule percentage of the =
population, made up of fat cat politicians and gangsters. The general =
population, being squeezed out of whatever 'newfound' largesse there was =
to be gained during that time, are pining for the good old days of the =
old Soviet system of long line-ups and bureacratic red tape in order to =
get their allotted loaf of bread and jug of milk. At least they knew, =
that with time and patience, they'd finally get their 'fair share'. Now, =
nothing is guaranteed. Certainly not jobs, income, access to basic goods =
and services, law enforcement, justice, or even tomorrow. Vladimir Putin =
knows that Russians never were 'built' nor ready for democracy, and =
never will be, and is simply biding his time until he pulls the rug out =
from the whole deal, and plunge the entire (grateful) nation back into =
its former communistic and totalitarian state. And, if he can do it, =
drag other former Soviet satellite states, like the Ukraine, back into =
that fold as well.=20
Ukraine stands a good chance of sustaining a democracy, all in all. =
Russia? Not much. But Iraq??=20
We in the West tend to view the rest of humanity through the same =
rose-coloured glasses, thinking that they all want to be like us lucky =
few in the world. As just one example, when the coalition forces of the =
West defeated the autocratic Taliban government of Afghanistan, we told =
the women that they could finally take off those godawful oppressive =
burkhas. No they said, they wanted to wear them, you simply don't =
understand our ways. And that sums it all up: we simply don't understand =
their ways. Some people and nations apparently enjoy being told what to =
do, and when, at the barrel of a gun and some simply do not. Whether the =
difference lies in culture or economic circumstances, the result will =
always be the same when we of the West try to impose (even at the barrel =
of a gun) our own 'values' and circumstances upon those who do not, nor =
ever have shared those values, nor ever 'enjoyed' those circumstances.=20
It's like watching a PBS documentary on chimpanzees or baboons, and the =
narrator is telling us that when one baboon is picking the fleas and =
nits out of anothers' fur, it's a form of socialization process that =
varies amongst the hierarchy of that clan. Oh? Maybe the damned ape just =
likes the taste of the little critters or is just hungry? Or when one =
big old male ape starts humping a younger male, we're told that it's a =
form of subordination ritual to ensure the Alpha Male's position within =
the tribe. Really. Maybe the old fart is just horny and seeing as though =
there's no females around, decides to take a whack at Bobo Jr. for the =
sheer helluvit?
Just as much as humans are anthropocentric, seeing the universe and =
everything in it perpetually in human terms, so too we in the West see =
the rest of the world in western terms (occidocentric?). We want to =
believe we know how others feel about certain matters, but a lot of the =
time we simply don't have a clue. And I think that that's the case with =
Iraq as well, and its democratic venture. The concept of determining =
your own future through a government you decide upon seems simple, =
logical and self-evident to us, but may not translate very well on the =
other side of the world, or even next door for that matter, in this =
multicultural society.=20
Having said all that, Iraq is doomed to be a bloodbath from now until =
the Second Coming anyhow. Mainly because the President who sent the =
occupying forces into that nation has zero intention of just packing up =
and leaving without at least securing the oilfields he invested in. =
Secondly, I think God wants to keep the American forces there, as young, =
eager and innocent as they are, to teach America a valuable lesson about =
pride, arrogance, and greed. And it won't be an easy lesson to take. =
Even the most rabid anti-American's jaws will drop when he sees what God =
has in store for 'Babylon'.=20
------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C507FA.674D1310
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV>Gee, a whole bunch of pictures of smiley happy Iraqis with thumbs =
and peace=20
signs held up for the cameras. I seem to recall the same jubilancy the =
day the=20
Americans rounded up a fake 'crowd' of Iraqis as=20
the American G.I.'s were about to topple the big statue =
of Saddam=20
before they beat 'him' with their shoes. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The same kind of jubilancy the day the Iraqis cornered and =
killed some=20
American soldiers, setting them on fire and hoisting their ripped=20
and charred bodies on a bridge. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The same kind of jubilancy and dancing in the streets, (along =
with the=20
obligatory ululating fat old women in black robes) the day the =
Palestinians heard that their friend Osama bin Laden managed to =
bring down=20
the Twin Towers in Manhattan, massacring 3,000 innocent Americans. =
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Holding an election is the easy part of democracy, much like =
invading and=20
taking over a country is the easy part of war and conquest. The hard =
part is=20
holding onto the gains, and keeping the momentum going by capturing =
the=20
hearts and minds of the people affected. That's a trick few if any =
conquering=20
nations have managed to handle, and when it comes to Bush's America and =
the=20
oil-laden nation of Iraq, not one that future history books (as if) are =
very=20
likely to describe as being anything better than the tragic, =
miserable=20
failure it already has proven itself to be. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Look at Russia. They've given 'democracy' a shot for the past 16 =
years or=20
so, and they're more destitute and backwards than they've ever been, and =
that's=20
saying a lot. The only ones benefiting from the whole enterprise there, =
not=20
surprisingly, are a miniscule percentage of the population, made up of =
fat cat=20
politicians and gangsters. The general population, being squeezed out of =
whatever 'newfound' largesse there was to be gained during that time, =
are pining=20
for the good old days of the old Soviet system of long line-ups and =
bureacratic=20
red tape in order to get their allotted loaf of bread and jug of milk. =
At least=20
they knew, that with time and patience, they'd finally get their =
'fair=20
share'. Now, nothing is guaranteed. Certainly not jobs, income, access =
to basic=20
goods and services, law enforcement, justice, or even tomorrow. Vladimir =
Putin=20
knows that Russians never were 'built' nor ready for democracy, and =
never will=20
be, and is simply biding his time until he pulls the rug out from =
the whole=20
deal, and plunge the entire (grateful) nation back into its former =
communistic=20
and totalitarian state. And, if he can do it, drag other former Soviet =
satellite=20
states, like the Ukraine, back into that fold as well. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ukraine stands a good chance of sustaining a democracy, all in all. =
Russia? Not much. But Iraq?? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We in the West tend to view the rest of humanity through the same=20
rose-coloured glasses, thinking that they all want to be like us lucky =
few in=20
the world. As just one example, when the coalition forces of the West =
defeated=20
the autocratic Taliban government of Afghanistan, we told the women that =
they=20
could finally take off those godawful oppressive burkhas. No they said, =
they=20
wanted to wear them, you simply don't understand our ways. And that sums =
it all=20
up: we simply don't understand their ways. Some people and=20
nations apparently enjoy being told what to do, and when, at the =
barrel of=20
a gun and some simply do not. Whether the difference lies in =
culture=20
or economic circumstances, the result will always be the same when =
we of=20
the West try to impose (even at the barrel of a gun) our =
own 'values'=20
and circumstances upon those who do not, nor ever have shared those =
values, nor=20
ever 'enjoyed' those circumstances. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It's like watching a PBS documentary on chimpanzees or baboons, and =
the=20
narrator is telling us that when one baboon is picking the fleas and =
nits out of=20
anothers' fur, it's a form of socialization process that varies amongst =
the=20
hierarchy of that clan. Oh? Maybe the damned ape just likes the taste of =
the=20
little critters or is just hungry? Or when one big old male ape starts =
humping a=20
younger male, we're told that it's a form of subordination ritual to =
ensure the=20
Alpha Male's position within the tribe. Really. Maybe the old fart is =
just horny=20
and seeing as though there's no females around, decides to take a whack =
at Bobo=20
Jr. for the sheer helluvit?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just as much as humans are anthropocentric, seeing the universe and =
everything in it perpetually in human terms, so too we in the West =
see the=20
rest of the world in western terms (occidocentric?). We want to believe =
we know=20
how others feel about certain matters, but a lot of the time we simply =
don't=20
have a clue. And I think that that's the case with Iraq as well, and its =
democratic venture. The concept of determining your own future through a =
government you decide upon seems simple, logical and =
self-evident to us,=20
but may not translate very well on the other side of the world, or even =
next=20
door for that matter, in this multicultural society. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Having said all that, Iraq is doomed to be a bloodbath from now =
until the=20
Second Coming anyhow. Mainly because the President who sent the =
occupying forces=20
into that nation has zero intention of just packing up and leaving =
without at=20
least securing the oilfields he invested in. Secondly, I think God wants =
to keep=20
the American forces there, as young, eager and innocent as they are, to =
teach=20
America a valuable lesson about pride, arrogance, and greed. And it =
won't be an=20
easy lesson to take. Even the most rabid anti-American's jaws will drop =
when he=20
sees what God has in store for 'Babylon'. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C507FA.674D1310--
.
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Smiley happy shiny Iraqi people |
01 Feb 2005 07:04:49 PM |
|
|
Dan Millar wrote:
Gee, a whole bunch of pictures of smiley happy Iraqis with thumbs and
peace signs held up for the cameras. I seem to recall the same jubilancy
the day the Americans rounded up a fake 'crowd' of Iraqis as
the American G.I.'s were about to topple the big statue of Saddam before
they beat 'him' with their shoes.
The same kind of jubilancy the day the Iraqis cornered and killed some
American soldiers, setting them on fire and hoisting their ripped
and charred bodies on a bridge.
The same kind of jubilancy and dancing in the streets, (along with the
obligatory ululating fat old women in black robes) the day the
Palestinians heard that their friend Osama bin Laden managed to bring
down the Twin Towers in Manhattan, massacring 3,000 innocent Americans.
Holding an election is the easy part of democracy, much like invading
and taking over a country is the easy part of war and conquest. The hard
part is holding onto the gains, and keeping the momentum going by
capturing the hearts and minds of the people affected. That's a trick
few if any conquering nations have managed to handle, and when it comes
to Bush's America and the oil-laden nation of Iraq, not one that future
history books (as if) are very likely to describe as being anything
better than the tragic, miserable failure it already has proven itself
to be.
Look at Russia. They've given 'democracy' a shot for the past 16 years
or so, and they're more destitute and backwards than they've ever been,
and that's saying a lot. The only ones benefiting from the whole
enterprise there, not surprisingly, are a miniscule percentage of the
population, made up of fat cat politicians and gangsters. The general
population, being squeezed out of whatever 'newfound' largesse there was
to be gained during that time, are pining for the good old days of the
old Soviet system of long line-ups and bureacratic red tape in order to
get their allotted loaf of bread and jug of milk. At least they knew,
that with time and patience, they'd finally get their 'fair share'. Now,
nothing is guaranteed. Certainly not jobs, income, access to basic goods
and services, law enforcement, justice, or even tomorrow. Vladimir Putin
knows that Russians never were 'built' nor ready for democracy, and
never will be, and is simply biding his time until he pulls the rug out
from the whole deal, and plunge the entire (grateful) nation back into
its former communistic and totalitarian state. And, if he can do it,
drag other former Soviet satellite states, like the Ukraine, back into
that fold as well.
Ukraine stands a good chance of sustaining a democracy, all in all.
Russia? Not much. But Iraq??
We in the West tend to view the rest of humanity through the same
rose-coloured glasses, thinking that they all want to be like us lucky
few in the world. As just one example, when the coalition forces of the
West defeated the autocratic Taliban government of Afghanistan, we told
the women that they could finally take off those godawful oppressive
burkhas. No they said, they wanted to wear them, you simply don't
understand our ways. And that sums it all up: we simply don't understand
their ways. Some people and nations apparently enjoy being told what to
do, and when, at the barrel of a gun and some simply do not. Whether the
difference lies in culture or economic circumstances, the result will
always be the same when we of the West try to impose (even at the barrel
of a gun) our own 'values' and circumstances upon those who do not, nor
ever have shared those values, nor ever 'enjoyed' those circumstances.
It's like watching a PBS documentary on chimpanzees or baboons, and the
narrator is telling us that when one baboon is picking the fleas and
nits out of anothers' fur, it's a form of socialization process that
varies amongst the hierarchy of that clan. Oh? Maybe the damned ape just
likes the taste of the little critters or is just hungry? Or when one
big old male ape starts humping a younger male, we're told that it's a
form of subordination ritual to ensure the Alpha Male's position within
the tribe. Really. Maybe the old fart is just horny and seeing as though
there's no females around, decides to take a whack at Bobo Jr. for the
sheer helluvit?
Just as much as humans are anthropocentric, seeing the universe and
everything in it perpetually in human terms, so too we in the West see
the rest of the world in western terms (occidocentric?). We want to
believe we know how others feel about certain matters, but a lot of the
time we simply don't have a clue. And I think that that's the case with
Iraq as well, and its democratic venture. The concept of determining
your own future through a government you decide upon seems simple,
logical and self-evident to us, but may not translate very well on the
other side of the world, or even next door for that matter, in this
multicultural society.
Having said all that, Iraq is doomed to be a bloodbath from now until
the Second Coming anyhow. Mainly because the President who sent the
occupying forces into that nation has zero intention of just packing up
and leaving without at least securing the oilfields he invested in.
Secondly, I think God wants to keep the American forces there, as young,
eager and innocent as they are, to teach America a valuable lesson about
pride, arrogance, and greed. And it won't be an easy lesson to take.
Even the most rabid anti-American's jaws will drop when he sees what God
has in store for 'Babylon'.
Good post. Thanks!
Democracy is not about elections at all. Elections are only a component
of democracy. For a democratic society to come to existence, first the
very concept of democracy needs to be embedded in people's perception of
social organization. That alone can take a good generation or two. Then
all the institutions need to be rebuilt from ground up. Unions,
schools, and so forth, going all the way up to a robust and strong
judicial system that can actually protect a democracy. If these things
are not in place, we can have five elections a month, and you still
won't have democratic society.
The Iraqi election is a good example of voters exercising democracy in a
vacuum. First, there was only one reason for the vast Shia turn out:
Ayatollah Sistani (the very respected spiritual leader of Shias) had
told his followers that voting in this election is a religious
obligation, more important than fasting and praying. So huge number of
people turned out to vote for candidates whose identity still remains
anonymous (for security reasons).
So what did people vote for? In Iraq the perception is that somehow
voting is tied to the departure of occupying forces. That's why they are
smiling and dancing on the streets. Unfortunely, this joy too will turn
into deception soon.
Stat.
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Foreman" |
|
| Title: Re: Smiley happy shiny Iraqi people |
04 Feb 2005 12:49:33 AM |
|
|
MonsieurStat <monsieurstat@gmail.com> Spat the Words
Dan Millar wrote:
Gee, a whole bunch of pictures of smiley happy Iraqis with thumbs and
peace signs held up for the cameras. I seem to recall the same jubilancy
the day the Americans rounded up a fake 'crowd' of Iraqis as
the American G.I.'s were about to topple the big statue of Saddam before
they beat 'him' with their shoes.
The same kind of jubilancy the day the Iraqis cornered and killed some
American soldiers, setting them on fire and hoisting their ripped
and charred bodies on a bridge.
The same kind of jubilancy and dancing in the streets, (along with the
obligatory ululating fat old women in black robes) the day the
Palestinians heard that their friend Osama bin Laden managed to bring
down the Twin Towers in Manhattan, massacring 3,000 innocent Americans.
Holding an election is the easy part of democracy, much like invading
and taking over a country is the easy part of war and conquest. The hard
part is holding onto the gains, and keeping the momentum going by
capturing the hearts and minds of the people affected. That's a trick
few if any conquering nations have managed to handle, and when it comes
to Bush's America and the oil-laden nation of Iraq, not one that future
history books (as if) are very likely to describe as being anything
better than the tragic, miserable failure it already has proven itself
to be.
Look at Russia. They've given 'democracy' a shot for the past 16 years
or so, and they're more destitute and backwards than they've ever been,
and that's saying a lot. The only ones benefiting from the whole
enterprise there, not surprisingly, are a miniscule percentage of the
population, made up of fat cat politicians and gangsters. The general
population, being squeezed out of whatever 'newfound' largesse there was
to be gained during that time, are pining for the good old days of the
old Soviet system of long line-ups and bureacratic red tape in order to
get their allotted loaf of bread and jug of milk. At least they knew,
that with time and patience, they'd finally get their 'fair share'. Now,
nothing is guaranteed. Certainly not jobs, income, access to basic goods
and services, law enforcement, justice, or even tomorrow. Vladimir Putin
knows that Russians never were 'built' nor ready for democracy, and
never will be, and is simply biding his time until he pulls the rug out
from the whole deal, and plunge the entire (grateful) nation back into
its former communistic and totalitarian state. And, if he can do it,
drag other former Soviet satellite states, like the Ukraine, back into
that fold as well.
Ukraine stands a good chance of sustaining a democracy, all in all.
Russia? Not much. But Iraq??
We in the West tend to view the rest of humanity through the same
rose-coloured glasses, thinking that they all want to be like us lucky
few in the world. As just one example, when the coalition forces of the
West defeated the autocratic Taliban government of Afghanistan, we told
the women that they could finally take off those godawful oppressive
burkhas. No they said, they wanted to wear them, you simply don't
understand our ways. And that sums it all up: we simply don't understand
their ways. Some people and nations apparently enjoy being told what to
do, and when, at the barrel of a gun and some simply do not. Whether the
difference lies in culture or economic circumstances, the result will
always be the same when we of the West try to impose (even at the barrel
of a gun) our own 'values' and circumstances upon those who do not, nor
ever have shared those values, nor ever 'enjoyed' those circumstances.
It's like watching a PBS documentary on chimpanzees or baboons, and the
narrator is telling us that when one baboon is picking the fleas and
nits out of anothers' fur, it's a form of socialization process that
varies amongst the hierarchy of that clan. Oh? Maybe the damned ape just
likes the taste of the little critters or is just hungry? Or when one
big old male ape starts humping a younger male, we're told that it's a
form of subordination ritual to ensure the Alpha Male's position within
the tribe. Really. Maybe the old fart is just horny and seeing as though
there's no females around, decides to take a whack at Bobo Jr. for the
sheer helluvit?
Just as much as humans are anthropocentric, seeing the universe and
everything in it perpetually in human terms, so too we in the West see
the rest of the world in western terms (occidocentric?). We want to
believe we know how others feel about certain matters, but a lot of the
time we simply don't have a clue. And I think that that's the case with
Iraq as well, and its democratic venture. The concept of determining
your own future through a government you decide upon seems simple,
logical and self-evident to us, but may not translate very well on the
other side of the world, or even next door for that matter, in this
multicultural society.
Having said all that, Iraq is doomed to be a bloodbath from now until
the Second Coming anyhow. Mainly because the President who sent the
occupying forces into that nation has zero intention of just packing up
and leaving without at least securing the oilfields he invested in.
Secondly, I think God wants to keep the American forces there, as young,
eager and innocent as they are, to teach America a valuable lesson about
pride, arrogance, and greed. And it won't be an easy lesson to take.
Even the most rabid anti-American's jaws will drop when he sees what God
has in store for 'Babylon'.
Good post. Thanks!
Democracy is not about elections at all. Elections are only a component
of democracy. For a democratic society to come to existence, first the
very concept of democracy needs to be embedded in people's perception of
social organization. That alone can take a good generation or two. Then
all the institutions need to be rebuilt from ground up. Unions,
schools, and so forth, going all the way up to a robust and strong
judicial system that can actually protect a democracy.
And Bush is going to be with the Iraqis the whole way, sucking
their oil until they have none left. I'm starting to hear a
giant sucking sound.
If these things
are not in place, we can have five elections a month, and you still
won't have democratic society.
The Iraqi election is a good example of voters exercising democracy in a
vacuum. First, there was only one reason for the vast Shia turn out:
Ayatollah Sistani (the very respected spiritual leader of Shias) had
told his followers that voting in this election is a religious
obligation, more important than fasting and praying. So huge number of
people turned out to vote for candidates whose identity still remains
anonymous (for security reasons).
So what did people vote for? In Iraq the perception is that somehow
voting is tied to the departure of occupying forces. That's why they are
smiling and dancing on the streets. Unfortunely, this joy too will turn
into deception soon.
Stat.
.
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|
|
|

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