| Topic: |
Science > Prophecies-Of-Nostradamus |
| User: |
"Mudda Lann Newz Servus" |
| Date: |
27 Jun 2003 09:00:23 PM |
| Object: |
Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
and you are how old ?
"no" <reenooeo@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:By6La.68421$Io.6399851@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Looking more like Vietnam with sand.
.................
Mike T wrote in message ...
1 hour, 5 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier was shot in the head while buying
digital
video discs at a shop in Baghdad on Friday, the shop owner and other
witnesses
said.
The U.S. military had no immediate comment on the report. It was not
clear
from
witness accounts whether his wound was fatal.
The shop owner, who refused to give his name, said the soldier had come
into the
DVD shop in the Kazimiyah neighborhood in the northwest of the city at
around 11
a.m. and picked up two discs.
"He took out dollars from his pocket and as I looked at the money I heard
a
bang. He froze and then fell backwards," the owner told Reuters
Television.
"Two
other soldiers came in, picked him up and took him away."
Other witnesses corroborated the owner's version. One said he saw a young
man
shooting the soldier at close quarters in the lower head.
Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 10 wounded in a spate of attacks on
Thursday
as armed resistance to American and British military occupation appeared
to
be
rising.
.
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 07:10:18 AM |
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I was about 17, when in college, students were saying Nixon's the one; he'll
be a bigger one in '72. My lottery number was near 100 (97 perhaps), out of
365.
.................
Mudda Lann Newz Servus wrote in message ...
and you are how old ?
"no" <reenooeo@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:By6La.68421$Io.6399851@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Looking more like Vietnam with sand.
.................
Mike T wrote in message ...
1 hour, 5 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier was shot in the head while buying
digital
video discs at a shop in Baghdad on Friday, the shop owner and other
witnesses
said.
The U.S. military had no immediate comment on the report. It was not
clear
from
witness accounts whether his wound was fatal.
The shop owner, who refused to give his name, said the soldier had come
into the
DVD shop in the Kazimiyah neighborhood in the northwest of the city at
around 11
a.m. and picked up two discs.
"He took out dollars from his pocket and as I looked at the money I
heard
a
bang. He froze and then fell backwards," the owner told Reuters
Television.
"Two
other soldiers came in, picked him up and took him away."
Other witnesses corroborated the owner's version. One said he saw a
young
man
shooting the soldier at close quarters in the lower head.
Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 10 wounded in a spate of attacks on
Thursday
as armed resistance to American and British military occupation appeared
to
be
rising.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 02:47:42 PM |
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On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
The minor details may differ, but the bottom line is the same - we
didn't belong, and weren't wanted, in either place.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Mudda Lann Newz Servus" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 03:04:51 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
The minor details may differ, but the bottom line is the same - we
didn't belong, and weren't wanted, in either place.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 03:24:25 PM |
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On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT in alt.atheism, Mudda Lann Newz
Servus ("Mudda Lann Newz Servus" <muddalann@aol.com>) said, directing
the reply to alt.atheism
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
Well, I suppose to be fair one should ask those who lost one half to
Saddam's security machine and the other half to allied bombing.
The minor details may differ, but the bottom line is the same - we
didn't belong, and weren't wanted, in either place.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 **
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 06:05:04 PM |
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Therion Ware a écrit :
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT in alt.atheism, Mudda Lann Newz
Servus ("Mudda Lann Newz Servus" <muddalann@aol.com>) said, directing
the reply to alt.atheism
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
Well, I suppose to be fair one should ask those who lost one half to
Saddam's security machine and the other half to allied bombing.
One then would conclude many more would have had their tongues cut off
otherwise...
Thank you very much.
J.
The minor details may differ, but the bottom line is the same - we
didn't belong, and weren't wanted, in either place.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 **
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 08:28:53 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote in message ...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT in alt.atheism, Mudda Lann Newz
Servus ("Mudda Lann Newz Servus" <muddalann@aol.com>) said, directing
the reply to alt.atheism
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
Well, I suppose to be fair one should ask those who lost one half to
Saddam's security machine and the other half to allied bombing.
Also I believe the Iraqi war machine was kept from destruction in Gulf War I
because that would contain the Shiites and prevent a Shiite takeover (they
are a clear majority) and a union between Iraq and Iran shiites.
Saddam was our man during the Iraq-Iran war, because of the Ayatollah's
Islamic revolution.
....................
The minor details may differ, but the bottom line is the same - we
didn't belong, and weren't wanted, in either place.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being
read.
** atheist poster child #1 **
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 03:27:00 PM |
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Mudda Lann Newz Servus wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
Tell it to any of the Iraqis who had their ears cut off, or their
tongues cut out.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 08:34:44 PM |
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The US could have destroyed Saddam's war machine in Gulf War I. That could
have been done from the air, with no invasion of Baghdad. Saddam had wmds,
but his tanks and artillery and helicopters and best troops could have been
decimated even more. Instead enough remained to kill many Shiites during the
uprisings following G War I.
...................................
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFF4B94.2000105@earthling.com>...
Mudda Lann Newz Servus wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
Tell it to any of the Iraqis who had their ears cut off, or their
tongues cut out.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 07:09:45 PM |
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On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers? Yeah,
they're SO grateful that we've taken over their country. Even the
kids who've been maimed by our cluster bombs are glad it happened.
--
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein Archive 59-085
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Mudda Lann Newz Servus" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 07:16:01 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:jrvufv46i5s5vgrrl8knea431jeatua1ep@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
Yeah,
they're SO grateful that we've taken over their country. Even the
kids who've been maimed by our cluster bombs are glad it happened.
it's war. injuries occur
learn to accept it
or not, I'm through with you
--
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate
understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein
Archive 59-085
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 10:17:07 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:jrvufv46i5s5vgrrl8knea431jeatua1ep@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone. The ones shooting us are the ones whose
kin were killed in the war or its aftermath. The 'people' we
'liberated'. That's just their way of thanking us - doing to us what
we did to their families. They're practicing the golden rule.
Yeah,
they're SO grateful that we've taken over their country. Even the
kids who've been maimed by our cluster bombs are glad it happened.
it's war. injuries occur
They wouldn't have if we hadn't invaded their country.
or not, I'm through with you
Victory by running away, hmmm?
--
"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their
numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion,
only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
-A. Einstein (Letter to Edgar Meyer, Jan. 2, 1915)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 10:29:57 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:jrvufv46i5s5vgrrl8knea431jeatua1ep@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
The ones shooting us are the ones whose
kin were killed in the war or its aftermath. The 'people' we
'liberated'. That's just their way of thanking us - doing to us what
we did to their families. They're practicing the golden rule.
Evidence?
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 10:08:57 AM |
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no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFFAEB5.9080002@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:jrvufv46i5s5vgrrl8knea431jeatua1ep@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the
secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
The Iraqis are not oppressing the USA.
They're not threatening anybody anymore.
The USA has been oppressing much of the Middle East
and determining the "good guys" from the "bad guys".
We know who our friends are.
The ones shooting us are the ones whose
kin were killed in the war or its aftermath. The 'people' we
'liberated'. That's just their way of thanking us - doing to us what
we did to their families. They're practicing the golden rule.
Evidence?
Evidence of oppression?
We're on their land. They're not on ours. This is
like Vietnam, a lose-lose situation.
We're going to force them to have a democratic government and a modern
infrastructure whether they like it or not!
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 11:14:37 AM |
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Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFFAEB5.9080002@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US
intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the
secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing our
military.
The Iraqis are not oppressing the USA.
They're not threatening anybody anymore.
With phantom wmds.
The USA has been oppressing much of the Middle East
and determining the "good guys" from the "bad guys".
We know who our friends are.
As I stated, the Afghanistan war made sense, though the full consequences
aren't clear. The Iraq war is costing us friends. Apparently occupation and
oppression is fine as long as our nation is doing it.
The ones shooting us are the ones whose
kin were killed in the war or its aftermath. The 'people' we
'liberated'. That's just their way of thanking us - doing to us what
we did to their families. They're practicing the golden rule.
Evidence?
Evidence of oppression?
We're on their land. They're not on ours. This is
like Vietnam, a lose-lose situation.
We're going to force them to have a democratic government and a modern
infrastructure whether they like it or not!
Well during the Vietnam era, people threw around the word 'imperialist'.
--
Fred Stone
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 09:24:16 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "no" <reenneoo@earthlink.net> posted
in alt.atheism:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing our
military.
Just about what the "liberated" Vietnamese did. And still do.
The Iraqis are not oppressing the USA.
They're not threatening anybody anymore.
With phantom wmds.
Shrub's mind is a phantom, so phantom WMDs are dangerous to him.
Apparently occupation and oppression is fine as long as our nation is doing it.
That's pretty much Fred's viewpoint - that whatever we do is right,
because we do it. Where have I heard something like that before?
We're going to force them to have a democratic government and a modern
infrastructure whether they like it or not!
Well during the Vietnam era, people threw around the word 'imperialist'.
Fred IS NOT an imperialist. (He's a loon.)
--
"If we really know Truth, we do not fear hearing falsehoods or half-truths; if we are not sure of the truth - we shudder and try to shout down every utterance." - A. J. Mims
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 10:19:08 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:14:37 GMT, "no" <reenneoo@earthlink.net> posted
in alt.atheism:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing our
military.
Just about what the "liberated" Vietnamese did. And still do.
Of course, all analogies to war MUST be drawn from Vietnam, no matter
how many times it doesn't play out, they're JUST LIKE VIETNAM, even when
they're not.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
01 Jul 2003 10:49:10 PM |
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On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:34:30 GMT, "no" <reenooeo@earthlink.net> posted
in alt.atheism:
Thanks for the warning. I am susceptible to troll bait.
It was fun seeing his "We're the US, and that makes us right"
nonsense, through your posts. (I killfiled him when his brain started
taking extended vacations from his body.)
--
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 11:31:18 AM |
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no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFFAEB5.9080002@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US
intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the
secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing our
military.
Can't please everybody.
The Iraqis are not oppressing the USA.
They're not threatening anybody anymore.
With phantom wmds.
With anything.
The USA has been oppressing much of the Middle East
and determining the "good guys" from the "bad guys".
We know who our friends are.
As I stated, the Afghanistan war made sense, though the full consequences
aren't clear. The Iraq war is costing us friends.
We're not doing it so everybody will like us.
Apparently occupation and
oppression is fine as long as our nation is doing it.
Yes, they are.
The ones shooting us are the ones whose
kin were killed in the war or its aftermath. The 'people' we
'liberated'. That's just their way of thanking us - doing to us what
we did to their families. They're practicing the golden rule.
Evidence?
Evidence of oppression?
We're on their land. They're not on ours. This is
like Vietnam, a lose-lose situation.
We're going to force them to have a democratic government and a modern
infrastructure whether they like it or not!
Well during the Vietnam era, people threw around the word 'imperialist'.
So? We're not here to make everybody like us.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
01 Jul 2003 10:46:56 PM |
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On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:48:40 GMT, "no" <reenneoo@earthlink.net> posted
in alt.atheism:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F0065D6.6030109@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Apparently occupation and
oppression is fine as long as our nation is doing it.
Yes, they are.
Huh?
Fred is of the opinion that if the US does it, it's the right thing to
do. Whether it's really "right" or not. Kinda like how Christians
feel about their god. Fred's a very religious atheist.
--
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 08:27:38 PM |
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no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F0065D6.6030109@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFFAEB5.9080002@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US
intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the
secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing our
military.
Can't please everybody.
So you gotta please yourself.
Well, yeah. And however many Iraqis it takes to elect a government
that'll last longer than it takes us to demobilize and sail home. We're
still wrangling over how to pick the delegates for their Constitutional
Convention. Do "oppressors" do that?
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 09:31:47 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote in message <3F00E38A.8050502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F0065D6.6030109@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFFAEB5.9080002@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US
intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the
secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing
our
military.
Can't please everybody.
So you gotta please yourself.
Well, yeah. And however many Iraqis it takes to elect a government
that'll last longer than it takes us to demobilize and sail home. We're
still wrangling over how to pick the delegates for their Constitutional
Convention. Do "oppressors" do that?
Do oppressors practice social engineering over an entire region? Yeah
probably, if they're rich and or powerful enough.
But if there's an election, I wonder if Jimmy Carter and Nelson Mandela will
be invited to monitor it. Too dangerous probably; too many Iraqis there.
They all have wmds.
--
Fred Stone
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| User: "Flyfish" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
01 Jul 2003 01:16:44 PM |
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"no" <reenneoo@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:no6Ma.72700$Io.6817966@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
Do oppressors practice social engineering over an entire region? Yeah
probably, if they're rich and or powerful enough.
But if there's an election, I wonder if Jimmy Carter and Nelson
Mandela will be invited to monitor it. Too dangerous probably; too
many Iraqis there. They all have wmds.
Jimmy doesn't get invited unless the fix is already in.
Flyfish
--
Listen, it's a healthy debate for people to express their opinion. People
should be allowed to express their opinion." G.W. Bush August 2002
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
01 Jul 2003 07:32:32 PM |
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Flyfish wrote in message ...
"no" <reenneoo@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:no6Ma.72700$Io.6817966@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
Do oppressors practice social engineering over an entire region? Yeah
probably, if they're rich and or powerful enough.
But if there's an election, I wonder if Jimmy Carter and Nelson
Mandela will be invited to monitor it. Too dangerous probably; too
many Iraqis there. They all have wmds.
Jimmy doesn't get invited unless the fix is already in.
Well restrictions are in place. An Islamic state has been ruled out by the
WH.
Flyfish
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
30 Jun 2003 10:11:21 PM |
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no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F00E38A.8050502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F0065D6.6030109@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F005289.6010502@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFFAEB5.9080002@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US
intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the
secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers?
no, not the former members of Saddam's forces
They're either dead or gone.
No, they're known to have dispersed and we're capturing them in our
sweeps. They're not "gone" at all.
Then capture them, by all means. That is what oppressors do.
It's also what liberators do.
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing
our
military.
Can't please everybody.
So you gotta please yourself.
Well, yeah. And however many Iraqis it takes to elect a government
that'll last longer than it takes us to demobilize and sail home. We're
still wrangling over how to pick the delegates for their Constitutional
Convention. Do "oppressors" do that?
Do oppressors practice social engineering over an entire region? Yeah
probably, if they're rich and or powerful enough.
We're going to oppress them so hard that they'll have to choose their
own representatives to a democratically elected government.
But if there's an election, I wonder if Jimmy Carter and Nelson Mandela will
be invited to monitor it.
I hope they will.
Too dangerous probably; too many Iraqis there.
They all have wmds.
Our brave and noble American servicemen will protect them. :-)
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
01 Jul 2003 07:26:17 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote in message <3F00FBD9.5060303@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are cussing
our
military.
Can't please everybody.
So you gotta please yourself.
Well, yeah. And however many Iraqis it takes to elect a government
that'll last longer than it takes us to demobilize and sail home. We're
still wrangling over how to pick the delegates for their Constitutional
Convention. Do "oppressors" do that?
Do oppressors practice social engineering over an entire region? Yeah
probably, if they're rich and or powerful enough.
We're going to oppress them so hard that they'll have to choose their
own representatives to a democratically elected government.
But if there's an election, I wonder if Jimmy Carter and Nelson Mandela
will
be invited to monitor it.
I hope they will.
Here's Mandela's thinking about Bush's efforts so far in Iraq. (Url's
provided, for nonprofit informational purposes only):
[http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=BUSH-AFRICA-06-30-03&cat=II
South Africa
Of all the countries on Bush's itinerary, U.S. relations are most strained
with South Africa, a country of 45 million people and 11 official languages
that will mark the 10th anniversary of the end of apartheid next year.
President Thabo Mbeki has spoken out forcefully against Bush's Iraq war
policy, and even sent a delegation to Baghdad to demonstrate his opposition.
Anti-apartheid icon Archbishop Desmond Tutu condemned the war and former
President Nelson Mandela threatened to snub Bush next week in indignation.
The administration also has denounced Mbeki's refusal to provide
anti-retroviral drugs to AIDS victims, a policy contributing to the fact
that South Africa has the highest number of its citizens infected with HIV
and an exploding death rate. And Mbeki's reluctance to intervene in
neighboring Zimbabwe, where a strongman leader is collapsing the country's
economy and refusing to give up power.
On the other hand, Bush is a booster of Mbeki's free-market economic
approach, though it has yet to produce significant benefits for the
poverty-beset population.
http://www.sabcnews.com/politics/government/0,1009,61393,00.html
Anti-War Coalition asks Mbeki to cancel Bush's visit
June 30, 2003, 15:45
Anti-war groups are protesting George W.Bush's visit to the country
The Anti-War Coalition, which represents about 300 civic groups has
confirmed that it will request President Thabo Mbeki to cancel George W.
Bush, US president's, visit to South Africa.
Bush is due to visit South Africa next week. Nayim Jeena, coalition
spokesperson, says they do not think Bush is a friend of Africa. However,
government says law enforcement agencies will tackle unruly demonstrations
against Bush's visit. Aziz Pahad, the Deputy Foreign Minister, says South
Africans will be allowed to demonstrate, but they must be peaceful.
Pahad says security has already been stepped up ahead of Bush's visit. A
host of South African groups want to hold protest marches against the Iraq
war. Nelson Mandela, the former President - who has condemned Bush' violent
overthrow of Saddam Hussein - has reportedly also refused to meet with him.
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/179/nation/Mandela_criticizes_Bush_on_Iraq
_war+.shtml
Mandela criticizes Bush on Iraq war
By Japan Mathebula, Associated Press, 6/28/2003
OHANNESBURG - Former president Nelson Mandela criticized President Bush
yesterday for the US-led war in Iraq, and hinted he might not meet with Bush
when he visits South Africa.
Mandela, speaking to reporters, used strong language to condemn the US-led
war for the second time in less than six months.
''For anybody, especially the leader of a super state, to act outside the
United Nations is something that must be condemned by everybody,'' Mandela
said after meeting with Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin of France.
Asked if he would convey his views to Bush next month, the 84-year-old
Mandela replied: ''You assume that he's going to meet me. I wouldn't make
that assumption.
''I know he's coming to see the president, but I cannot be sure if he's
going to want to meet me,'' he added.
''So I won't be able to tell him anything. I have said what I wanted to say,
and I don't have to repeat it,'' Mandela said.
White House spokesman Sean McCormack said the Bush administration had no
comment on Mandela's remarks. The White House has not disclosed whether Bush
plans to meet with Mandela on his trip to Africa that starts on July 7.
Mandela received the 1984 Nobel Peace Prize for leading the campaign against
apartheid and is perhaps the most respected political figure in Africa.
In his remarks yesterday, the former South African president had warm words
for France.
''I am very happy about the attitude taken by President Jacques Chirac,
because he made it clear that France was in favor of peace,'' Mandela said.
De Villepin, who was on the last day of a two-day visit to South Africa,
said he admired Mandela ''for what he has done for his country and what he
has done for the world.''
He said they had exchanged views on French and European involvement in
assisting Africa both in development and in crises.
On Jan. 29, Mandela called Bush arrogant and shortsighted and implied that
he was racist for ignoring the United Nations in his zeal to attack Iraq.
In a speech, Mandela urged the people of the United States to join massive
protests against Bush and he called on world leaders, especially those with
vetoes in the UN Security Council, to oppose the administration.
''One power with a president who has no foresight and cannot think properly,
is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust,'' Mandela told the
audience at the International Women's Forum in January.
At the time, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer responded to Mandela's
criticism by pointing to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating
their support of Bush.]
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
02 Jul 2003 09:33:10 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote in message <3F023FF0.4090302@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Fred Stone wrote in message <3F00FBD9.5060303@earthling.com>...
no wrote:
Liberators? It's damn embarrassing. The liberated Shiites are
cussing
our
military.
Can't please everybody.
So you gotta please yourself.
Well, yeah. And however many Iraqis it takes to elect a government
that'll last longer than it takes us to demobilize and sail home. We're
still wrangling over how to pick the delegates for their Constitutional
Convention. Do "oppressors" do that?
Do oppressors practice social engineering over an entire region? Yeah
probably, if they're rich and or powerful enough.
We're going to oppress them so hard that they'll have to choose their
own representatives to a democratically elected government.
But if there's an election, I wonder if Jimmy Carter and Nelson Mandela
will
be invited to monitor it.
I hope they will.
Here's Mandela's thinking about Bush's efforts so far in Iraq. (Url's
provided, for nonprofit informational purposes only):
All the more reason. He could hardly be accused of being in our pockets.
Okay. But he might snub Bush soon in Africa.
Here are poll numbers you might be interested in. People in the US are
questioning the war more than in May. The article is from the AFP (French
Presse):
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/03/1057179064382.html
US 'lied' about Iraq: poll
Thursday 3 July 2003, 8:05 AM
The US public is tiring of the war effort in Iraq and, for the first time a
survey said most believe the Bush administration stretched the truth or lied
about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
In the face of the falling support, President George W Bush has sought to
reassure the public that the United States is not becoming bogged down in a
protracted conflict but he and other US leaders have warned it could be a
long presence.
A poll by the University of Maryland found that 52 per cent of respondents
said they believed Bush and his aides were "stretching the truth, but not
making false statements" about Saddam Hussein's chemical, biological and
nuclear programs.
Another 10 per cent said US officials had presented "evidence they knew was
false," indicated the survey. Only 32 per cent said they thought the
government was being "fully truthful" about the Iraqi arsenal.
Weapons of mass destruction were used as the main justification for
launching conflict before the war began on March 20.
But since the fall of Baghdad on April 9 and Bush's declaration that the
major combat was over on May 1, the United States has yet to report the
discovery of any banned weapons.
And the mounting death toll among US troops in Iraq has helped to undermine
public confidence in the US occupation.
As a result, 63 per cent of the 1,051 people polled now believe the US
Congress should investigate intelligence agencies to find out how they came
up with information about the alleged Iraqi arsenal, the University of
Maryland survey found.
Fifty-six per cent believed the US government stretched the truth or made
outright false statements about Hussein's ties to al-Qaeda.
Although overall support for the war in Iraq remained high, the poll gave
indications of its erosion.
Thus, the share of those who unconditionally believe the war was the right
thing to do dwindled from 53 per cent in early May to 46 per cent in early
June. Twenty-nine per cent, up from 22 per cent in May, now say the United
States was wrong.
Steven Kull, director of the University of Maryland survey program, said:
"The poll shows the public is in some turmoil about Iraq and uneasy about
some of the administration claims.
"But for most people, the pluses of going to war still outweigh the
minuses."
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer rebuffed suggestions that public support
was falling. "I think the American people actually have a very good centre
of gravity about the situation in Iraq," he told reporters.
Only 56 per cent of respondents in the USA Today/CNN/Gallup released on
Monday said Iraq was worth going to war over, down from 73 per cent in
April.
--
Fred Stone
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 09:04:57 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers? Yeah,
they're SO grateful that we've taken over their country. Even the
kids who've been maimed by our cluster bombs are glad it happened.
Ah, so the Iraqi people are a monolith. They all have identical
opinions, so if one hates us, they must all hate us.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "no" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 11:50:25 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote in message <3EFF9AC9.4060005@earthling.com>...
Al Klein wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:04:51 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ggufv8t08mb00bvdsi7r6gi8to25gn7sl@Pern.rk...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
tell that to the citizens of Iraq who lost family memebers to the secret
police
You mean the ones who are now shooting US and British soldiers? Yeah,
they're SO grateful that we've taken over their country. Even the
kids who've been maimed by our cluster bombs are glad it happened.
Ah, so the Iraqi people are a monolith. They all have identical
opinions, so if one hates us, they must all hate us.
Which large group of Iraqis wants the US and UK there? Or if they had
monitors monitoring a reconstruction and elections, would they prefer a
different set of peacekeeping forces?
There's a clear case of oppression. And if Saddam oppressed the Shiites, why
didn't the US take out Saddam's forces in Gulf War I? It's because the US
strategists didn't want an Iran-friendly regime taking over the Iraqi
government.
--
Fred Stone
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 06:01:36 PM |
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Al Klein a écrit :
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:02:19 GMT, "Mudda Lann Newz Servus"
<muddalann@aol.com> posted in alt.atheism:
so you lived thru the Vitnam War and cannot see the stark differences
between it and the Iraq action ?
They were both places in which the PEOPLE didn't want US intervention.
The minor details may differ, but the bottom line is the same - we
didn't belong, and weren't wanted, in either place.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
rukbat at optonline dot net
nah, if people don't want to be invaded then they don't break UN
resolutions.
http://www.michelnostradamus.org/Res687e.htm and
http://www.michelnostradamus.org/Res1441.htm
This stopped further invasion on the condition they would give back the
Kuwaiti archives, give back the Kuwaiti prisonners of war, didn't
threaten Kuwait to become an Iraqi province, and mostly, not pay for
terrorists, conditions for not lifting the cease fire which they all
broke.
Only the irresponsible would have left the UN become an obsolete
organization,
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nuggetman/responses/stupid.jpg
J.
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| User: "Mike T" |
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| Title: Re: U.S. Soldier Shot Shopping in Baghdad-Witnesses |
29 Jun 2003 06:47:24 PM |
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On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 23:01:36 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
nah, if people don't want to be invaded then they don't break UN
resolutions.
There are very clear UNSC resolutions that Israel is violating by building
illegal settlements, Such as: UNSC 452, July 20, 1979
http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/1979/scres79.htm
"Calls upon the Government and people of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis,
the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab
territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem;"
Iraq was invaded because supposedly Sadam was violating UNSC resolution (when
he was not), but yet Israel is in CLEAR violation of many -- not just one --
UNSC. Why is the United Snakes of America not invading Israel?
----------- begin quote ------------------
UNSC 452, July 20, 1979
United Nations Security Council Resolution 452 (1979)
20 July 1979
The Security Council,
[...]
Considering that the policy of Israel in establishing settlements in the
occupied Arab territories has no legal validity and constitutes a violation of
the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in
Time of War of 12 August 1949,
Deeply concerned by the practices of the Israeli authorities in implementing
that settlements policy in the occupied Arab territories, including Jerusalem,
and its consequences for the local Arab and Palestinian population,
Emphasizing the need for confronting the issue of the existing settlements and
the need to consider measures to safeguard the impartial protection of property
seized,
Bearing in mind the specific status of Jerusalem, and reconfirming pertinent
Security Council resolutions concerning Jerusalem and in particular the need to
protect and preserve the unique spiritual and religious dimension of the Holy
Places in that city,
Drawing attention to the grave consequences which the settlements policy is
bound to have on any attempt to reach a peaceful solution in the Middle East,
1. Commends the work done by the Commission in preparing the report on the
establishment of Israeli settlements in the Arab territories occupied since
1967, including Jerusalem;
2. Accepts the recommendations contained in the above-mentioned report of the
Commission;
3. Calls upon the Government and people of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis,
the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab
territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem;
----------------- end quote ---------------
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