"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
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Jane wrote
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message

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"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message

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dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message >

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"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message

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Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of Islam is that

honour

killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely right to say

they

weren't the cultural norm..

You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't you?

When

discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to remember that
Turkey's government is an *exception* and not the cultural norm.

It is still, sadly, fairly common in Turkey.

"Fairly common" eh? How many cases per year Jane?

According to this Washington Post article, at least 200

"At least" , ***** - that was an estimate.

I'm sure they didn't just pull the figure out of their asses!

and probably
more.

An ESTIMATED 200 out of a population of 62.7 million. Hmm. The US

population

is around 300 million or, say 5 times that of Turkey, to be generous.
Therefore, any crime that occurs more than 1000 times a year in the US is
the "cultural norm" and "fairly common" by your standards. This should be
"fun"...

Oh please, murders in the US have all kinds of motives! You cannot compare
it to honour killings, which are a specific type of murder against young
girls who are guilty of talking to a male, falling in love or even getting
raped. Lovely culture that punishes the victim of a rape instead of the
perp. Under Islam, a victim needs 4 male eye witnesses to the rape if she
hopes to prove it...look it up!

As I said in my previous post (which you have, thus far,
neglected to answer),

Sorry, newsreader on the blink again. Interesting that you taunt me for
failing to answer, yet taunt me for following you around and disagreeing

for

the sake of it when I do..

Dear, dear, that newsreader of yours! Can we all use that excuse?

I like debate and like an answer when you challenge me to something.
However, once you start saying the very same thing 20 different ways, it
gets annoying (which is the whole point, isn't it?)

we first must know the number of wayward girls
vs. the number killed in order to know how much of a cultural norm it
is.

No, in the case of Turkey at least the frequency of the act tells us what

a

cultural norm it is. Especially seeing as Turkey is rather more European

in

the attitudes of its young people.

Nope, you're wrong! I am sure there are very modern muslims in Turkey who
allow their daughters a measure of freedom and also very traditional ones.
Hell, there are traditional muslims here! I've mentioned ad nauseum that I
worked with one. And there was that recent honour killing in Rochester, New
York that I posted about some time ago.

Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below
believes it to be extremely common.

It doesn't sound like that AT ALL. Read the damn article - they say they
believe it MAY be more common than 200 cases a year but there is no

evidence

for this due to the way statistics are collected. NOWHERE does ANYONE say
they believe it to be "extremly common". When you keep making factual

errors

like this, I will keep correcting them.

I think 200+ a year is fairly common (which is what I said, not extremely).
That article was posted in 2001 and they said that the numbers were going
up. May be much higher today, we just don't know.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/dilberk.htm :

""Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar Ilkkaracan,
director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns for
changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women. "Honor
killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface is
terrifying."

What part of the above don't you understand???

Researchers estimate at least 200 girls and women are murdered each
year by their families in Turkey; the real numbers, they say, may be
far greater. Women's organizations say their estimates -- and their
conclusion that honor crimes are on the rise -- are based on reports
from local organizations and activists scattered across the country
and from local newspapers that document cases investigated by police.
Accurate statistics do not exist because police records do not break
down homicides into specific types, and honor crimes often go
unreported."

See? Nowhere does it say they believe this crime to be "extremely common".

Neither did I. I clearly said "fairly common".

I

agree that even one is too many and too common, but let's deal with facts
not propaganda, eh?

Which is all rather irrelevant anyway as it has been shown that Honour
Killings are not part of, or sanctioned by, Islam. Which poorly-informed
stick are you going to grab next to bash Muslims with?

Honour killings PREDATE Islam! Islam has adopted them, just as some
muslims, mainly in Africa, have adopted the ancient practice of genital
mutilation. It may not be specifically sanctioned in the qu'ran, but the
fact that they cannot even bring in legislation to punish the perps says
that they are happy to continue the tradition.

Jane

Jane wrote:

"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message

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Jane wrote
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
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"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in

message > news:<a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com>...

"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...

Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of

Islam is that

honour killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely
right to say they weren't the cultural norm..

You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't
you? When discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to
remember that Turkey's government is an *exception* and not
the cultural norm.

It is still, sadly, fairly common in Turkey.

"Fairly common" eh? How many cases per year Jane?

According to this Washington Post article, at least 200

"At least" , ***** - that was an estimate.

I'm sure they didn't just pull the figure out of their asses!

They estimated 200 which means it could be higher or lower. It is dishonest
of you to spin that to "at least", don't you think?

and probably
more.

An ESTIMATED 200 out of a population of 62.7 million. Hmm. The US
population is around 300 million or, say 5 times that of

Turkey, to be

generous. Therefore, any crime that occurs more than 1000

times a year

in the US is the "cultural norm" and "fairly common" by your
standards. This should be "fun"...

Oh please, murders in the US have all kinds of motives!

So anything that happens over 1000 times a year in the US is the "cultural
norm"?

You cannot compare it to honour killings, which are a specific
type of murder against young girls who are guilty of talking
to a male, falling in love or even getting raped. Lovely
culture that punishes the victim of a rape instead of the
perp. Under Islam, a victim needs 4 male eye witnesses to
the rape if she hopes to prove it...look it up!

Red herring noted and avoided. The question is - does something that occurs
1000 times per year in the US equal a "cultural norm" or a "fairly common
occurrence"?

As I said in my previous post (which you have, thus far,

neglected

to answer),

Sorry, newsreader on the blink again. Interesting that you taunt me
for failing to answer, yet taunt me for following you around and
disagreeing for the sake of it when I do..

Dear, dear, that newsreader of yours! Can we all use that excuse?

If you wish - I post through a newsreader account which has almost packed up
compeletely apparently. I can't opst via google, so I have to look at
threads in deja then repost them via the newsreader. I assure you this
annoys me more than it does you.

I like debate and like an answer when you challenge me to
something. However, once you start saying the very same thing
20 different ways, it gets annoying (which is the whole
point, isn't it?)

Isn't that what youi've been doing? I'm just trying to get you to stop
thinking in such sweeping genearlised, bigoted terms.

we first must know the number of wayward girls
vs. the number killed in order to know how much of a

cultural norm

it is.

No, in the case of Turkey at least the frequency of the

act tells us

what a cultural norm it is. Especially seeing as Turkey is

rather more

European in the attitudes of its young people.

Nope, you're wrong!

You've been learning from Tony I see...
Turkey *isn't* more European in its attitudes? I think you're wrong there.

I am sure there are very modern muslims
in Turkey who allow their daughters a measure of freedom and
also very traditional ones.

So then we're both wrong? Or both right?

Hell, there are traditional
muslims here! I've mentioned ad nauseum that I worked with
one. And there was that recent honour killing in Rochester,
New York that I posted about some time ago.

*one* hounour killing among how many Muslim immmigrants? And yet you say
this is the "cultrual norm" in such societies? LOL

Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted

below believes

it to be extremely common.

It doesn't sound like that AT ALL. Read the damn article - they say
they believe it MAY be more common than 200 cases a year

but there is

no evidence for this due to the way statistics are

collected. NOWHERE

does ANYONE say they believe it to be "extremly common".

When you keep

making factual errors like this, I will keep correcting them.

I think 200+ a year is fairly common

So you agree that anything which happens e.g. 1000 times a year in the US is
"fairly common" and "the cultural norm"?

(which is what I said,
not extremely).

*ahem*
"Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below believes
it to be extremely common."

That article was posted in 2001 and they said
that the numbers were going up. May be much higher today, we
just don't know.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/dilberk.htm :
""Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar

Ilkkaracan,

director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns for
changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women. "Honor
killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface is
terrifying."

What part of the above don't you understand???

The part where nobody says "it is extremely common". To quote you "Sounds
like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below believes it to be
extremely common." That statement was false wasn't it? Don't confuse
widespread with common, and notice that the "iceberg" she talks about in the
final sentence refers to an underlying misogyunist culture, not vast numbers
of undiscovered honour killings. Perhaps YOU didn't understand?

Researchers estimate at least 200 girls and women are

murdered each

year by their families in Turkey; the real numbers, they

say, may be

far greater. Women's organizations say their estimates --

and their

conclusion that honor crimes are on the rise -- are based

on reports

from local organizations and activists scattered across

the country

and from local newspapers that document cases investigated by
police. Accurate statistics do not exist because police

records do

not break down homicides into specific types, and honor

crimes often

go unreported."

See? Nowhere does it say they believe this crime to be "extremely
common".

Neither did I. I clearly said "fairly common".

Nope:
"Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below believes it to
be extremely common"

I

agree that even one is too many and too common, but let's deal with
facts not propaganda, eh?

Which is all rather irrelevant anyway as it has been shown

that Honour

Killings are not part of, or sanctioned by, Islam. Which
poorly-informed stick are you going to grab next to bash

Muslims with?

Honour killings PREDATE Islam!

Indeed, so they can hardly be blamed on Islam.

Islam has adopted them,

Nope, the Clerics clearly stand against them.

just as some muslims, mainly in Africa, have adopted the ancient
practice of genital mutilation.

Are you saying that is "fairly common" and the cultural norm" in Islam now?!

It may not be specifically
sanctioned in the qu'ran

Or even generally, or at all.

but the fact that they cannot even
bring in legislation to punish the perps

In all "Islamic" countries? In some? In most? Be specific.

says that they are
happy to continue the tradition.

Which is not an Islamic tradition, so why use it to bash Islam when it is
clear the vast majority of muslims neither condone nor commit such killings?

If you wish - I post through a newsreader account which has almost packed up
compeletely apparently. I can't opst via google, so I have to look at
threads in deja then repost them via the newsreader. I assure you this
annoys me more than it does you.