From: Jane (pushlinque@hotmail.com)
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
news:<a2b35e99.0406242208.7bfe35bb@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbdvft$i5k$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of Islam is that honour
killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely right to say
they
weren't the cultural norm..
You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't you? When
discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to remember that
Turkey's government is an *exception* and not the cultural norm.
Indeed. When discussing honour kililngs, it would be wise to remember
that
they are also exceptional occurences. Jane would have us believe they
happen
everyday and go unpunished. I repeat, honour killings are not the
Cultural
Norm in Islamic society. For example, something like on average 20
girls are
murdered in Jordan each year due to honour killings. While that is
obviously
20 too many, it would be ridiculous to extrapolate this to being the
"cultural norm".
Honor killings actually predate Islam.
Great! SO we both agree they have nothing to do with Islam or Islamic
society then. Why, I wonder, does Jane continue to use them as an example of
the evils of Islam?
Honor killings are a problem
the culture of Islam has yet to resolve,
LOL! In that case, alcoholism, rape, drug dealing etc etc are problems the
culture of Western Christianity have yet to solve..
because many Muslims still
consider honor killings to be a cultural norm:
See above.
[excerpt from an article] Honor killings are part of a culture, not a
religion, and occur in Arab communities in the United States and many
countries. One-third of the reported homicides in Jordan are honor
killings. The killers are treated with leniency, and families assign
the task of honor killing to a minor, because under Jordanian juvenile
law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a juvenile center where
they can learn a profession and continue their education, and then, at
eighteen, be released without a criminal record. The average term
served for an honor killing is only seven and a half months.
So it's an *arab* problem then, regardless of religion?
Of course you are right. I just posted another article in this thread
that shows how common it is in Turkey. You might as well talk to a
wall as try to convince tw, however. His mind is made up and he is
not going to let facts get in the way!'
LOL! The fact is, honour killings are not part of Islam, yet you use them as
an example of how eviul and nasty Islam is. Now who is ignoring the facts?
You admit you are bigotted against Islam, which implies your mind is made up
reagardless of inconvenient facts (e.g. The IRA are no more civilised than
the Islamic terrorists, Honour Killing is not a muslim thing etc etc)
If my mind is so made up, what do you think it is I have made my mind up
about?
.
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
29 Jun 2004 07:36:41 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:cbosc4$s1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
From: Jane (pushlinque@hotmail.com)
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
news:<a2b35e99.0406242208.7bfe35bb@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbdvft$i5k$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of Islam is that
honour
killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely right to say
they
weren't the cultural norm..
You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't you?
When
discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to remember that
Turkey's government is an *exception* and not the cultural norm.
Indeed. When discussing honour kililngs, it would be wise to
remember
that
they are also exceptional occurences. Jane would have us believe
they
happen
everyday and go unpunished. I repeat, honour killings are not the
Cultural
Norm in Islamic society. For example, something like on average 20
girls are
murdered in Jordan each year due to honour killings. While that is
obviously
20 too many, it would be ridiculous to extrapolate this to being the
"cultural norm".
Honor killings actually predate Islam.
Great! SO we both agree they have nothing to do with Islam or Islamic
society then. Why, I wonder, does Jane continue to use them as an example
of
the evils of Islam?
They predate Islam and have been adopted with gusto. I would say that makes
them Islamic. The cultivation of corn predates Europeans in North America,
but corn roasts are now part of our tradition in late summer.
Honor killings are a problem
the culture of Islam has yet to resolve,
LOL! In that case, alcoholism, rape, drug dealing etc etc are problems the
culture of Western Christianity have yet to solve..
As if you can compare honour killings to the above! None of those are
culturally sanctioned the way honour killings are.
because many Muslims still
consider honor killings to be a cultural norm:
See above.
[excerpt from an article] Honor killings are part of a culture, not a
religion, and occur in Arab communities in the United States and many
countries. One-third of the reported homicides in Jordan are honor
killings. The killers are treated with leniency, and families assign
the task of honor killing to a minor, because under Jordanian juvenile
law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a juvenile center where
they can learn a profession and continue their education, and then, at
eighteen, be released without a criminal record. The average term
served for an honor killing is only seven and a half months.
So it's an *arab* problem then, regardless of religion?
Mainly arab, but it has spread to other islamic regions.
Of course you are right. I just posted another article in this thread
that shows how common it is in Turkey. You might as well talk to a
wall as try to convince tw, however. His mind is made up and he is
not going to let facts get in the way!'
LOL! The fact is, honour killings are not part of Islam, yet you use them
as
an example of how eviul and nasty Islam is. Now who is ignoring the facts?
You admit you are bigotted against Islam, which implies your mind is made
up
reagardless of inconvenient facts (e.g. The IRA are no more civilised than
the Islamic terrorists, Honour Killing is not a muslim thing etc etc)
If my mind is so made up, what do you think it is I have made my mind up
about?
You have decided that honour killings are a rare occurence and not
sanctioned by islamic societies, no matter how much evidence to the contrary
you read. I found that article about Turkey in about 2 seconds after you
challenged me. Google "honor killings"; you'll be amazed.
Jane
.
|
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
01 Jul 2004 10:18:50 AM |
|
|
Jane a écrit:
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:cbosc4$s1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
From: Jane (pushlinque@hotmail.com)
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
news:<a2b35e99.0406242208.7bfe35bb@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbdvft$i5k$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of Islam is that
honour
killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely right to say
they
weren't the cultural norm..
You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't you?
When
discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to remember that
Turkey's government is an *exception* and not the cultural norm.
Indeed. When discussing honour kililngs, it would be wise to
remember
that
they are also exceptional occurences. Jane would have us believe
they
happen
everyday and go unpunished. I repeat, honour killings are not the
Cultural
Norm in Islamic society. For example, something like on average 20
girls are
murdered in Jordan each year due to honour killings. While that is
obviously
20 too many, it would be ridiculous to extrapolate this to being the
"cultural norm".
Honor killings actually predate Islam.
Great! SO we both agree they have nothing to do with Islam or Islamic
society then. Why, I wonder, does Jane continue to use them as an example
of
the evils of Islam?
They predate Islam and have been adopted with gusto. I would say that makes
them Islamic. The cultivation of corn predates Europeans in North America,
but corn roasts are now part of our tradition in late summer.
If they had couscous predating then it would be some cultural trait.
Whether it is terrorism, or the way they treat their women, we are
talking about cold blood murder here. (Well, and gang rape so as to lead
to that as was shown in 60 minutes a few weeks back).
These acts ARE sanctioned by the majority of muslims for religious reasons.
Nothing to do with common variety of crimes which are in every
societies. BTW did I read right, tw pretends that substance abuse and
rape do not exist there? Maybe he doesn't know the meaning of
"characteristic" (to this culture)?
J.
LOL! In that case, alcoholism, rape, drug dealing etc etc are
problems the
culture of Western Christianity have yet to solve..
As if you can compare honour killings to the above! None of those are
culturally sanctioned the way honour killings are.
because many Muslims still
consider honor killings to be a cultural norm:
See above.
[excerpt from an article] Honor killings are part of a culture, not a
religion, and occur in Arab communities in the United States and many
countries. One-third of the reported homicides in Jordan are honor
killings. The killers are treated with leniency, and families assign
the task of honor killing to a minor, because under Jordanian juvenile
law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a juvenile center where
they can learn a profession and continue their education, and then, at
eighteen, be released without a criminal record. The average term
served for an honor killing is only seven and a half months.
So it's an *arab* problem then, regardless of religion?
Mainly arab, but it has spread to other islamic regions.
Of course you are right. I just posted another article in this thread
that shows how common it is in Turkey. You might as well talk to a
wall as try to convince tw, however. His mind is made up and he is
not going to let facts get in the way!'
LOL! The fact is, honour killings are not part of Islam, yet you use them
as
an example of how eviul and nasty Islam is. Now who is ignoring the
facts?
You admit you are bigotted against Islam, which implies your mind is made
up
reagardless of inconvenient facts (e.g. The IRA are no more civilised
than
the Islamic terrorists, Honour Killing is not a muslim thing etc etc)
If my mind is so made up, what do you think it is I have made my mind up
about?
You have decided that honour killings are a rare occurence and not
sanctioned by islamic societies, no matter how much evidence to the
contrary
you read. I found that article about Turkey in about 2 seconds after you
challenged me. Google "honor killings"; you'll be amazed.
Jane
Who cares about corn.
What is characteristic
.
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|
|
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|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
28 Jun 2004 11:35:22 PM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<cbosc4$s1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
From: Jane (pushlinque@hotmail.com)
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
Honor killings actually predate Islam.
Great! SO we both agree they have nothing to do with Islam or Islamic
society then.
No, as I said in my next sentence: "Honor killings are a problem the
culture of Islam has yet to resolve."
Why, I wonder, does Jane continue to use them as an example of the
evils of Islam?
Probably because the phenomenon of honor killings (in today's modern
world) seems to be fairly exlusive to Islamic cultures.
Honor killings are a problem
the culture of Islam has yet to resolve,
LOL! In that case, alcoholism, rape, drug dealing etc etc are problems the
culture of Western Christianity have yet to solve..
Those things are NOT accepted as *honorable* in the culture of Western
Christianity. But everything I have read tells me honor killings are
too often accepted as honorable within the culture of Islam. Example:
June 2001
U.S. Customs Today
[excerpt] Two final facts in this brief overview of the honor-killing
phenomenon: (1) Within their culture, the men who commit these murders
are almost always considered innocent of criminal behavior; on the
contrary, they are considered heroes. Even today, some Middle Eastern
countries have yet to criminalize honor killings. But even where
countries are beginning to do so, perpetrators almost always go free,
without any sort of punishment, although on rare occasions they might
get a lip-service prison sentence of a few months; (2) Of all Middle
Eastern or Islamic countries, Pakistan leads the way in the number and
ferocity of honor killings. One report cited more than a thousand such
killings in 1998 and again in 1999 in just two provinces alone;
another report claims there are more than a thousand a year in the
entire country. The statistics may vary widely, but the crime's
acceptability apparently does not. [end excerpt]
http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/CustomsToday/2001/June/other/custoday_honorkill.xml
because many Muslims still
consider honor killings to be a cultural norm:
See above.
In the original article you posted, the woman was interviewed in the
hospital after the initial attempt on her life. She begged the police
for protection, but was later killed in her hospital bed. I wonder why
the police didn't protect her?
[excerpt from an article] Honor killings are part of a culture, not a
religion, and occur in Arab communities in the United States and many
countries. One-third of the reported homicides in Jordan are honor
killings. The killers are treated with leniency, and families assign
the task of honor killing to a minor, because under Jordanian juvenile
law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a juvenile center where
they can learn a profession and continue their education, and then, at
eighteen, be released without a criminal record. The average term
served for an honor killing is only seven and a half months.
So it's an *arab* problem then, regardless of religion?
It started as a tribal custom in the Arab world, but has since been
spread to other parts of the world. Where the culture of Islam goes,
so goes the culture of honor killings.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
30 Jun 2004 05:06:31 AM |
|
|
Jane wrote
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:cbosc4$s1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
From: Jane (pushlinque@hotmail.com)
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
news:<a2b35e99.0406242208.7bfe35bb@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbdvft$i5k$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of
Islam is that
honour killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely
right to say they weren't the cultural norm..
You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't
you? When discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to
remember that Turkey's government is an *exception* and not
the cultural norm.
Indeed. When discussing honour kililngs, it would be wise to
remember that they are also exceptional occurences.
Jane would
have us believe they happen everyday and go unpunished. I
repeat, honour killings are not the Cultural Norm in Islamic
society. For example, something like on average 20 girls are
murdered in Jordan each year due to honour killings.
While that
is obviously 20 too many, it would be ridiculous to
extrapolate
this to being the "cultural norm". Honor killings actually
predate Islam.
Great! SO we both agree they have nothing to do with Islam
or Islamic
society then. Why, I wonder, does Jane continue to use them as an
example of the evils of Islam?
They predate Islam and have been adopted with gusto.
"With Gusto" eh? With so much gusto that Muslim Clerics in Turkey are
reinforcing the fact that such killings are UnIslamic. That doesn't sound
very gusto-y to me..
I would
say that makes them Islamic. The cultivation of corn
predates Europeans in North America, but corn roasts are now
part of our tradition in late summer.
So Corn Roasts are a Christian tradition, a Western Tradition, a Canadian
tradition, A local canadian tradition? I imagine that far more
westerners/christians/candaians don't have corn roasts than do. Same with
honour killings/Islamic people
Honor killings are a problem
the culture of Islam has yet to resolve,
LOL! In that case, alcoholism, rape, drug dealing etc etc
are problems
the culture of Western Christianity have yet to solve..
As if you can compare honour killings to the above!
I'm not, I'äm comparing them to "problems that the culture of <whatever> has
yet to resolve.
None of
those are culturally sanctioned the way honour killings are.
So it’s the *culture* you want to blame, not Islam. As Islamic clerics say
this is an UnIslamic act, don't you think?
because many Muslims still
consider honor killings to be a cultural norm:
See above.
[excerpt from an article] Honor killings are part of a
culture, not
a religion, and occur in Arab communities in the United
States and
many countries. One-third of the reported homicides in Jordan are
honor killings. The killers are treated with leniency,
and families
assign the task of honor killing to a minor, because
under Jordanian
juvenile law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a
juvenile
center where they can learn a profession and continue their
education, and then, at eighteen, be released without a criminal
record. The average term served for an honor killing is
only seven
and a half months.
So it's an *arab* problem then, regardless of religion?
Mainly arab, but it has spread to other islamic regions.
But the problem is one of culture, not religion. After all, the clerics are
saying it's UnIslamic.
Of course you are right. I just posted another article in this
thread that shows how common it is in Turkey. You might
as well talk
to a wall as try to convince tw, however. His mind is
made up and he
is not going to let facts get in the way!'
LOL! The fact is, honour killings are not part of Islam,
yet you use
them as an example of how eviul and nasty Islam is. Now who is
ignoring the facts? You admit you are bigotted against Islam, which
implies your mind is made up reagardless of inconvenient
facts (e.g.
The IRA are no more civilised than the Islamic terrorists, Honour
Killing is not a muslim thing etc etc)
If my mind is so made up, what do you think it is I have
made my mind
up about?
You have decided that honour killings are a rare occurence
Well, actually I onloy ever argued that they weren't the "cultural norm",
but does something that happen 1000 times a year in the US not constitue "a
rare occurrence"?
and not sanctioned by islamic societies,
They are not sanctioned by Islam.
no matter how much
evidence to the contrary you read.
What about the contrary evidence you have read? Muslim clerics CONDEMN
honour killings as UnIslamic - therefore you cannot use it as a stick to
beat Islam with.
I found that article
about Turkey in about 2 seconds after you challenged me.
Google "honor killings"; you'll be amazed.
I don't deny they occur, I merely think that using them as an indication of
the "evils of Islam" is dishnoest and misrepresentative
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
01 Jul 2004 02:24:00 PM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<cbu36j$ba1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Jane wrote
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:cbosc4$s1$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
From: Jane (pushlinque@hotmail.com)
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
news:<a2b35e99.0406242208.7bfe35bb@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbdvft$i5k$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Well, well well.. seems like the attitude of
Islam is that
honour killings are unlawful..seems like I was absolutely
right to say they weren't the cultural norm..
You do realize that Turkey has a secular government, don't
you? When discussing Islamic republics, it would be wise to
remember that Turkey's government is an *exception* and not
the cultural norm.
Indeed. When discussing honour kililngs, it would be wise to
remember that they are also exceptional occurences.
Jane would
have us believe they happen everyday and go unpunished. I
repeat, honour killings are not the Cultural Norm in Islamic
society. For example, something like on average 20 girls are
murdered in Jordan each year due to honour killings.
While that
is obviously 20 too many, it would be ridiculous to
extrapolate
this to being the "cultural norm". Honor killings actually
predate Islam.
Great! SO we both agree they have nothing to do with Islam
or Islamic
society then. Why, I wonder, does Jane continue to use them as an
example of the evils of Islam?
They predate Islam and have been adopted with gusto.
"With Gusto" eh? With so much gusto that Muslim Clerics in Turkey are
reinforcing the fact that such killings are UnIslamic. That doesn't sound
very gusto-y to me..
That article quoted one muslim cleric in Turkey. Let's hear from some
more before we draw any conclusions.
I would
say that makes them Islamic. The cultivation of corn
predates Europeans in North America, but corn roasts are now
part of our tradition in late summer.
So Corn Roasts are a Christian tradition, a Western Tradition, a Canadian
tradition, A local canadian tradition? I imagine that far more
westerners/christians/candaians don't have corn roasts than do. Same with
honour killings/Islamic people
it was a lame comparison (much like your bestiality one), but I was in
a hurry. A better comparison might be all the pagan saints/ rituals
that were incorporated into the early Christian church.
Honor killings are a problem
the culture of Islam has yet to resolve,
LOL! In that case, alcoholism, rape, drug dealing etc etc
are problems
the culture of Western Christianity have yet to solve..
As if you can compare honour killings to the above!
I'm not, I'äm comparing them to "problems that the culture of <whatever> has
yet to resolve.
None of
those are culturally sanctioned the way honour killings are.
So it?s the *culture* you want to blame, not Islam. As Islamic clerics say
this is an UnIslamic act, don't you think?
how many Islamic clerics? You have only shown me one!
because many Muslims still
consider honor killings to be a cultural norm:
See above.
[excerpt from an article] Honor killings are part of a
culture, not
a religion, and occur in Arab communities in the United
States and
many countries. One-third of the reported homicides in Jordan are
honor killings. The killers are treated with leniency,
and families
assign the task of honor killing to a minor, because
under Jordanian
juvenile law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a
juvenile
center where they can learn a profession and continue their
education, and then, at eighteen, be released without a criminal
record. The average term served for an honor killing is
only seven
and a half months.
So it's an *arab* problem then, regardless of religion?
Mainly arab, but it has spread to other islamic regions.
But the problem is one of culture, not religion. After all, the clerics are
saying it's UnIslamic.
One cleric.
Of course you are right. I just posted another article in this
thread that shows how common it is in Turkey. You might
as well talk
to a wall as try to convince tw, however. His mind is
made up and he
is not going to let facts get in the way!'
LOL! The fact is, honour killings are not part of Islam,
yet you use
them as an example of how eviul and nasty Islam is. Now who is
ignoring the facts? You admit you are bigotted against Islam, which
implies your mind is made up reagardless of inconvenient
facts (e.g.
The IRA are no more civilised than the Islamic terrorists, Honour
Killing is not a muslim thing etc etc)
If my mind is so made up, what do you think it is I have
made my mind
up about?
You have decided that honour killings are a rare occurence
Well, actually I onloy ever argued that they weren't the "cultural norm",
but does something that happen 1000 times a year in the US not constitue "a
rare occurrence"?
It actually happens more often than that. the US is a fairly violent
society compared to other western nations. However, there is
punishment for these acts, whihc makes them less of a cultural norm
than the sanctioned killings of innocent (or
not-so-innocent...sexually, that is ) girls.
and not sanctioned by islamic societies,
They are not sanctioned by Islam.
no matter how much
evidence to the contrary you read.
What about the contrary evidence you have read? Muslim clerics CONDEMN
honour killings as UnIslamic - therefore you cannot use it as a stick to
beat Islam with.
I found that article
about Turkey in about 2 seconds after you challenged me.
Google "honor killings"; you'll be amazed.
I don't deny they occur, I merely think that using them as an indication of
the "evils of Islam" is dishnoest and misrepresentative
Disagree. They are tolerated.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
02 Jul 2004 05:31:10 AM |
|
|
Jane wrote
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbu47u$bnl$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Jane wrote:
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:cbouav$1nm$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
Jane wrote
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cbe1s4$jcm$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8a04f01.0406230220.4b92a3c9@posting.google.com...
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message >
news:<a2b35e99.0406221940.1d500909@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cb9j8m$c5p$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
<snip>
They estimated 200 which means it could be higher or lower. It is
dishonest of you to spin that to "at least", don't you think?
Not at all. Many cases are unreported and the article said
the numbers were rising.
...all of which was no doubt taken into account in their estimation.
and probably
more.
An ESTIMATED 200 out of a population of 62.7 million.
Hmm. The US
population is around 300 million or, say 5 times that
of Turkey,
to be generous. Therefore, any crime that occurs more than 1000
times a year in the US is the "cultural norm" and
"fairly common"
by your standards. This should be "fun"...
Oh please, murders in the US have all kinds of motives!
So anything that happens over 1000 times a year in the US is the
"cultural norm"?
Of course not!
Agreed. So why are you claiming it IS the cultural norm for an Islamic
country`?
Murderers in the US are punished if caught
(unless they are OJ Simpson, of course). Honour killers in
Islamic countries get a slap on the wrist, if anything at all.
Irrelevent. You take one set of numbers and decides it equals a "regular
occurrence" and a "cultural norm" then deny that a similar set of numbers
equates to the same thing. Hmmm...
You cannot compare it to honour killings, which are a
specific type
of murder against young girls who are guilty of talking
to a male,
falling in love or even getting raped. Lovely culture
that punishes
the victim of a rape instead of the perp. Under Islam, a victim
needs 4 male eye witnesses to the rape if she hopes to prove
it...look it up!
Red herring noted and avoided. The question is - does
something that
occurs 1000 times per year in the US equal a "cultural norm" or a
"fairly common occurrence"?
Not a red herring
Yes it is. The question was how many times something has to happen per year
for it to be a "cultural norm" or "common occurrence".
when these girls are being killed for
having been raped and have absolutely no way of proving that
they were helpless to prevent it.
You don't have to convince me that honour killings are cruel and unjust, I
have stated many times that I think that. What we are discussing is how much
of a "cultural norm" they are, You appera to have agreed they are not a
cultural norm, as similar levels of a specific crime in the US would not be
a cultural norm either.
<snip>
we first must know the number of wayward girls
vs. the number killed in order to know how much of a cultural
norm it is.
No, in the case of Turkey at least the frequency of the
act tells
us what a cultural norm it is. Especially seeing as Turkey is
rather more European in the attitudes of its young people.
Nope, you're wrong!
You've been learning from Tony I see...
Turkey *isn't* more European in its attitudes? I think you're wrong
there.
Actually, except when Tony is arguing with Dani et al, he
makes a lot more sense then you do.
Because he and you share similar prejudices?
he , and a few others
here, knows what Islam is all about.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<deep breath> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! <wipes tear from eye>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Tony is a bigoted ***** when it comes to Islam (and many other things).
I did go on to qualify
my "you're wrong" below. You're being disingenuous again!
...and you ignored my response to you qualification:You're being disingenuous
again!
I am sure there are very modern muslims
in Turkey who allow their daughters a measure of freedom and also
very traditional ones.
So then we're both wrong? Or both right?
Well?
Hell, there are traditional
muslims here! I've mentioned ad nauseum that I worked
with one. And
there was that recent honour killing in Rochester, New
York that I
posted about some time ago.
*one* hounour killing among how many Muslim immmigrants?
And yet you
say this is the "cultrual norm" in such societies? LOL
They know there are severe consequences in western nations.
Possibly. So you contend when the culture established itself in another
country it lost its "cultural norms"?
Not so in Islamic ones.
So you keep asserting. But you agree that a crime commited in similar
numbers in the US isn't the "cultural norm".
Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below
believes it to be extremely common.
It doesn't sound like that AT ALL. Read the damn article - they
say they believe it MAY be more common than 200 cases a
year but
there is no evidence for this due to the way statistics are
collected. NOWHERE does ANYONE say they believe it to
be "extremly
common". When you keep making factual errors like this, I will
keep correcting them.
I think 200+ a year is fairly common
So you agree that anything which happens e.g. 1000 times a
year in the
US is "fairly common" and "the cultural norm"?
(which is what I said,
not extremely).
*ahem*
"Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below
believes
it to be extremely common."
I said that SHE believes it to be extremely common.
But nowhere in her article did she express that view. Or do you have a cite
to the contrary?
clearly said fairly common.
That article was posted in 2001 and they said
that the numbers were going up. May be much higher today, we just
don't know.
http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/dilberk.htm :
""Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar
Ilkkaracan, director of a human rights group in Istanbul that
campaigns for changes in Turkish laws that
discriminate against
women. "Honor killings are the tip of the iceberg.
What is under
the surface is terrifying."
What part of the above don't you understand???
The part where nobody says "it is extremely common". To quote you
"Sounds like the Turkish human rights advocate quoted below
believes
it to be extremely common." That statement was false wasn't
it? Don't
confuse widespread with common, and notice that the "iceberg" she
talks about in the final sentence refers to an underlying
misogyunist
culture, not vast numbers of undiscovered honour killings.
Perhaps YOU
didn't understand?
I disagree.
As is your right. However, I think you'll find the words of the article
don't change due to your disagreement.
It is all in the way it is interpreted.
Nope, Not at all. She said "Honor *crimes* are happening all over
Turkey...Honor *killings* are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the
surface is terrifying." No interpretation needed.
Look:
Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar Ilkkaracan,
director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns for
changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women. "Honor
killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface is
terrifying."
If she'd said "The reported numbers are the tip of the iceberg" you'd have a
point, but she didn't. She specifically said that honour killings
*themselves* were the tip of the iceberg, the iceberg itself being honour
crimes in general (I have no idea what they might be, but seeing as she made
a distinction between honour crimes and honour killings we can safely assume
they don't involve fatalitie). Read it again, this is the only possible
interpretation.
"What is under the surface is terrifying" sounds pretty, fairly,
relatively or extremely serious to me.
Maybe, but it doesn't refer to honour killings being "extremely common"
(honour *crimes* maybe), which is what you falsely claimed. I admit the
reason for the false claim was suspect reading comprehension rather than
dishonesty though.
<snip>
Honour killings PREDATE Islam!
Indeed, so they can hardly be blamed on Islam.
Islam has adopted them,
Nope, the Clerics clearly stand against them.
just as some muslims, mainly in Africa, have adopted the ancient
practice of genital mutilation.
Are you saying that is "fairly common" and the cultural
norm" in Islam
now?!
It is in some muslim african nations, yes.
...and it predates Islam too, so those countries were practising circumsision
before Islam came along.
It might be the "cultural norm" for the country, not for Islam the religion.
How many more times?
Thankfully, the
women in those nations are beginning to fight back.
It may not be specifically
sanctioned in the qu'ran
Or even generally, or at all.
but the fact that they cannot even
bring in legislation to punish the perps
In all "Islamic" countries? In some? In most? Be specific.
In Jordan, for example. See the article I posted before.
says that they are
happy to continue the tradition.
Which is not an Islamic tradition, so why use it to bash
Islam when it
is clear the vast majority of muslims neither condone nor
commit such
killings?
I think you would be surprised to find that many male
muslims, if not most, do condone it.
I certainly would be surprised! Do you have any evidence to back up this
assertion? I think the attention you pay to honour killings is grossly
disproportionate to the frequency of the crime and its acceptance amongst
people across the Islamic world which is infinitely more diverse in culture
and attitudes that even the US.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
05 Jul 2004 02:46:33 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5AFc.197277$207.2245732@news20.bellglobal.com...
Agreed. So why are you claiming it IS the cultural norm for an Islamic
country`?
Because their system does not punish them, mainly.
Ah.. so "cultural norm" means "the crime goes unpunished" in your view?
Murderers in the US are punished if caught
(unless they are OJ Simpson, of course). Honour killers in
Islamic countries get a slap on the wrist, if anything at all.
Irrelevent. You take one set of numbers and decides it equals a "regular
occurrence" and a "cultural norm" then deny that a similar set of
numbers
equates to the same thing. Hmmm...
Not at all. If a society tolerates something, it is a cultural norm.
I see, you are redefining your terms. Interesting.
Numbers enter in to it, but are not the only factor.
Of course.. lol.
Yes it is. The question was how many times something has to happen per
year
for it to be a "cultural norm" or "common occurrence".
And I think that question misses the point entirely! The point is that
the
culture tolerates a high level of misogyny, of which honour killings are
just one of the more gruesome aspects (along with stoning adultresses and
jailing rape victims for "zina")
But these are not characteristics of Islam..
when these girls are being killed for
having been raped and have absolutely no way of proving that
they were helpless to prevent it.
You don't have to convince me that honour killings are cruel and unjust,
I
have stated many times that I think that. What we are discussing is how
much
of a "cultural norm" they are, You appera to have agreed they are not a
cultural norm, as similar levels of a specific crime in the US would not
be
a cultural norm either.
Not at all, you are being disingenuous again! I did say that the US is a
more violent culture than the rest of the west, but also that murders are
punished if convicted. That is the main difference! Until Islamic
countries are willing to punish the killers, I have to say it is cultural.
In other words you have redefined your definition of "cultural norm" because
your old definition was shown to be weak.
Actually, except when Tony is arguing with Dani et al, he
makes a lot more sense then you do.
Because he and you share similar prejudices?
he , and a few others
here, knows what Islam is all about.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<deep breath> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! <wipes tear from
eye>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Tony is a bigoted ***** when it comes to Islam (and many other things).
I expected that reaction. I disagree with Tony on many things, but he is
right when it comes to Islam!
There's little point talking to you then is there? If you regard Tony as an
authority on Islam then you really have serious problems..
I did go on to qualify
my "you're wrong" below. You're being disingenuous again!
..and you ignored my response to you qualification:You're being
disingenuous
again!
I am sure there are very modern muslims
in Turkey who allow their daughters a measure of freedom and also
very traditional ones.
So then we're both wrong? Or both right?
Well?
Eh?
<snip>
As is your right. However, I think you'll find the words of the article
don't change due to your disagreement.
It is all in the way it is interpreted.
Nope, Not at all. She said "Honor *crimes* are happening all over
Turkey...Honor *killings* are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the
surface is terrifying." No interpretation needed.
Look:
Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar Ilkkaracan,
director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns for
changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women. "Honor
killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface is
terrifying."
If she'd said "The reported numbers are the tip of the iceberg" you'd
have
a
point, but she didn't. She specifically said that honour killings
*themselves* were the tip of the iceberg, the iceberg itself being
honour
crimes in general (I have no idea what they might be, but seeing as she
made
a distinction between honour crimes and honour killings we can safely
assume
they don't involve fatalitie). Read it again, this is the only possible
interpretation.
"What is under the surface is terrifying" sounds pretty, fairly,
relatively or extremely serious to me.
Maybe, but it doesn't refer to honour killings being "extremely common"
(honour *crimes* maybe), which is what you falsely claimed. I admit the
reason for the false claim was suspect reading comprehension rather than
dishonesty though.
My reading comprehension is just fine!
Apparently not.
I've already made my arguements and
am not going to regurgitate them!
Probably best not to, seeing as tehy were based on a failure to understand
what teh woman said..
<snip>
..and it predates Islam too, so those countries were practising
circumsision
before Islam came along.
It might be the "cultural norm" for the country, not for Islam the
religion.
How many more times?
Human sacrifices were the cultural norm for the celts
*****! Who told you that? The same people who told you the IRA never
targeted civilians I expect.
and also the Aztecs
(for example).
Well, the "norm" in the sense it went unpunished, but it was a very rare
occurence.
When they were converted to Christianity, the church put a
stop to those practices.
Yeah, they just had the inquisition instead..
The fact that Islam continues to tolerate honour
killings tells me that they have adopted the practice with enthusiasm!
Tolerate == practice with enthusiaism?! Please buy a dictionary Jane
I think you would be surprised to find that many male
muslims, if not most, do condone it.
I certainly would be surprised! Do you have any evidence to back up this
assertion? I think the attention you pay to honour killings is grossly
disproportionate to the frequency of the crime and its acceptance
amongst
people across the Islamic world which is infinitely more diverse in
culture
and attitudes that even the US.
I think you should do a quick google search (use the American spelling)
and
you will be amazed.
Do you have a cite that "many male muslims, if not most, do condone it."? Or
was that just another unsuipported assertion you pulled out of your hat?
I think a great deal of attention needs to be paid to
the issues of women in Islam...
Obviously...
honour killings, genital mutilation, gender
apartheid...
All part of cultures which existed before Islam, and therefore cant be used
as examples of Islamic "evil"
It's an emotive issue for sure, which presumably is why you can't be logical
about it.
perhaps if you were female, you would understand.
LOL!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
05 Jul 2004 02:10:27 PM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<ccb0s2$ktp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5AFc.197277$207.2245732@news20.bellglobal.com...
Agreed. So why are you claiming it IS the cultural norm for an Islamic
country`?
Because their system does not punish them, mainly.
Ah.. so "cultural norm" means "the crime goes unpunished" in your view?
If the society tolerates and does not punish it, then, yes, it is a
cultural norm.
Murderers in the US are punished if caught
(unless they are OJ Simpson, of course). Honour killers in
Islamic countries get a slap on the wrist, if anything at all.
Irrelevent. You take one set of numbers and decides it equals a "regular
occurrence" and a "cultural norm" then deny that a similar set of
numbers
equates to the same thing. Hmmm...
Not at all. If a society tolerates something, it is a cultural norm.
I see, you are redefining your terms. Interesting.
I have always said that the lack of punishment was part of it.
Numbers enter in to it, but are not the only factor.
Of course.. lol.
Yes it is. The question was how many times something has to happen per
year
for it to be a "cultural norm" or "common occurrence".
And I think that question misses the point entirely! The point is that
the
culture tolerates a high level of misogyny, of which honour killings are
just one of the more gruesome aspects (along with stoning adultresses and
jailing rape victims for "zina")
But these are not characteristics of Islam..
They most certainly are! They are practiced in Islamic nations and
none other that I am aware of! (India does have "bride burnings", but
that is all about money and/or male heirs)
when these girls are being killed for
having been raped and have absolutely no way of proving that
they were helpless to prevent it.
You don't have to convince me that honour killings are cruel and unjust,
I
have stated many times that I think that. What we are discussing is how
much
of a "cultural norm" they are, You appera to have agreed they are not a
cultural norm, as similar levels of a specific crime in the US would not
be
a cultural norm either.
Not at all, you are being disingenuous again! I did say that the US is a
more violent culture than the rest of the west, but also that murders are
punished if convicted. That is the main difference! Until Islamic
countries are willing to punish the killers, I have to say it is cultural.
In other words you have redefined your definition of "cultural norm" because
your old definition was shown to be weak.
No, it was laways part of my old definition.
Actually, except when Tony is arguing with Dani et al, he
makes a lot more sense then you do.
Because he and you share similar prejudices?
he , and a few others
here, knows what Islam is all about.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<deep breath> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! <wipes tear from
eye>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Tony is a bigoted ***** when it comes to Islam (and many other things).
I expected that reaction. I disagree with Tony on many things, but he is
right when it comes to Islam!
There's little point talking to you then is there? If you regard Tony as an
authority on Islam then you really have serious problems..
I didn't say he is "an authority"! he knows that there is an element
of Islam that has plans to eventually form a world-wide caliphate, and
that there is a danger to our civilization.
I did go on to qualify
my "you're wrong" below. You're being disingenuous again!
..and you ignored my response to you qualification:You're being
disingenuous
again!
I am sure there are very modern muslims
in Turkey who allow their daughters a measure of freedom and also
very traditional ones.
So then we're both wrong? Or both right?
Well?
Eh?
<snip>
As is your right. However, I think you'll find the words of the article
don't change due to your disagreement.
It is all in the way it is interpreted.
Nope, Not at all. She said "Honor *crimes* are happening all over
Turkey...Honor *killings* are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the
surface is terrifying." No interpretation needed.
Look:
Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar Ilkkaracan,
director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns for
changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women. "Honor
killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface is
terrifying."
If she'd said "The reported numbers are the tip of the iceberg" you'd
have
a
point, but she didn't. She specifically said that honour killings
*themselves* were the tip of the iceberg, the iceberg itself being
honour
crimes in general (I have no idea what they might be, but seeing as she
made
a distinction between honour crimes and honour killings we can safely
assume
they don't involve fatalitie). Read it again, this is the only possible
interpretation.
"What is under the surface is terrifying" sounds pretty, fairly,
relatively or extremely serious to me.
Maybe, but it doesn't refer to honour killings being "extremely common"
(honour *crimes* maybe), which is what you falsely claimed. I admit the
reason for the false claim was suspect reading comprehension rather than
dishonesty though.
My reading comprehension is just fine!
Apparently not.
I've already made my arguements and
am not going to regurgitate them!
Probably best not to, seeing as tehy were based on a failure to understand
what teh woman said..
I understood perfectly what the woman said.
<snip>
..and it predates Islam too, so those countries were practising
circumsision
before Islam came along.
It might be the "cultural norm" for the country, not for Islam the
religion.
How many more times?
Human sacrifices were the cultural norm for the celts
*****! Who told you that? The same people who told you the IRA never
targeted civilians I expect.
Read your history. Are you saying that the druids did not perform
human sacrifices??? I assure you, they did.
and also the Aztecs
(for example).
Well, the "norm" in the sense it went unpunished, but it was a very rare
occurence.
When they were converted to Christianity, the church put a
stop to those practices.
Yeah, they just had the inquisition instead..
Mainly in Spain (though not exclusively) and not throughout the entire
history of the religion.
The fact that Islam continues to tolerate honour
killings tells me that they have adopted the practice with enthusiasm!
Tolerate == practice with enthusiaism?! Please buy a dictionary Jane
Some tolerate; some practice with enthusiasm! The innocent girl is
still dead!
I think you would be surprised to find that many male
muslims, if not most, do condone it.
I certainly would be surprised! Do you have any evidence to back up this
assertion? I think the attention you pay to honour killings is grossly
disproportionate to the frequency of the crime and its acceptance
amongst
people across the Islamic world which is infinitely more diverse in
culture
and attitudes that even the US.
I think you should do a quick google search (use the American spelling)
and
you will be amazed.
Do you have a cite that "many male muslims, if not most, do condone it."? Or
was that just another unsuipported assertion you pulled out of your hat?
I think a great deal of attention needs to be paid to
the issues of women in Islam...
Obviously...
honour killings, genital mutilation, gender
apartheid...
All part of cultures which existed before Islam, and therefore cant be used
as examples of Islamic "evil"
All adopted by Islam.
It's an emotive issue for sure, which presumably is why you can't be logical
about it.
perhaps if you were female, you would understand.
LOL!
Why is that funny?
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
06 Jul 2004 02:04:25 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8a04f01.0407051110.242dd993@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<ccb0s2$ktp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5AFc.197277$207.2245732@news20.bellglobal.com...
Agreed. So why are you claiming it IS the cultural norm for an
Islamic
country`?
Because their system does not punish them, mainly.
Ah.. so "cultural norm" means "the crime goes unpunished" in your view?
If the society tolerates and does not punish it, then, yes, it is a
cultural norm.
But these societies ARE punishing honour killings, and muclism clerics are
spekaing out against it (round and round we go..)
Murderers in the US are punished if caught
(unless they are OJ Simpson, of course). Honour killers in
Islamic countries get a slap on the wrist, if anything at all.
Irrelevent. You take one set of numbers and decides it equals a
"regular
occurrence" and a "cultural norm" then deny that a similar set of
numbers
equates to the same thing. Hmmm...
Not at all. If a society tolerates something, it is a cultural norm.
I see, you are redefining your terms. Interesting.
I have always said that the lack of punishment was part of it.
...and the far greater part was the frequency! Do you now retract your
statement that it is "fairly common"?
Numbers enter in to it, but are not the only factor.
Of course.. lol.
Yes it is. The question was how many times something has to happen
per
year
for it to be a "cultural norm" or "common occurrence".
And I think that question misses the point entirely! The point is
that
the
culture tolerates a high level of misogyny, of which honour killings
are
just one of the more gruesome aspects (along with stoning adultresses
and
jailing rape victims for "zina")
But these are not characteristics of Islam..
They most certainly are!
Nope, no more than drug abuse is part of Christianity. YOu need to speraet
things that happen in SOME countries which are primarily Islamic from things
which actually happen as a result of Islam.
They are practiced in Islamic nations and
none other that I am aware of!
There are non-Islamic Kurds who still carry out honour killings.
(India does have "bride burnings", but
that is all about money and/or male heirs)
Yet you don't go railing against the evils of Hinduism, because you're
bigotyr is soley directed at Islam?
when these girls are being killed for
having been raped and have absolutely no way of proving that
they were helpless to prevent it.
You don't have to convince me that honour killings are cruel and
unjust,
I
have stated many times that I think that. What we are discussing is
how
much
of a "cultural norm" they are, You appera to have agreed they are
not a
cultural norm, as similar levels of a specific crime in the US would
not
be
a cultural norm either.
Not at all, you are being disingenuous again! I did say that the US
is a
more violent culture than the rest of the west, but also that murders
are
punished if convicted. That is the main difference! Until Islamic
countries are willing to punish the killers, I have to say it is
cultural.
In other words you have redefined your definition of "cultural norm"
because
your old definition was shown to be weak.
No, it was laways part of my old definition.
Shame you didn't say so form the beginning.. you just went on about how it
was "fairl common" and according to some article you didn't even read
properly "extremely common"!
Actually, except when Tony is arguing with Dani et al, he
makes a lot more sense then you do.
Because he and you share similar prejudices?
he , and a few others
here, knows what Islam is all about.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<deep breath> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! <wipes tear
from
eye>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Tony is a bigoted ***** when it comes to Islam (and many other
things).
I expected that reaction. I disagree with Tony on many things, but he
is
right when it comes to Islam!
There's little point talking to you then is there? If you regard Tony as
an
authority on Islam then you really have serious problems..
I didn't say he is "an authority"!
Yes you did: "he , and a few others here, knows what Islam is all about."
he knows that there is an element
"..knows what Islam is all about." - an element is what Islam is "all
about"?!
of Islam that has plans to eventually form a world-wide caliphate,
So what? There are crazies in every religion. They are , of course, a
miniscule minority, yet you are bigoted against the majority.
and that there is a danger to our civilization.
Hardly. The UK has had sustained mulsim immigration for about 50 years now,
with no problems except one or two crazy extremists on both sides. The two
cultures have assimillated very well and show no signs of wanting to
exterminate each other. ¨
As is your right. However, I think you'll find the words of the
article
don't change due to your disagreement.
It is all in the way it is interpreted.
Nope, Not at all. She said "Honor *crimes* are happening all over
Turkey...Honor *killings* are the tip of the iceberg. What is under
the
surface is terrifying." No interpretation needed.
Look:
Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar
Ilkkaracan,
director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns
for
changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women.
"Honor
killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface
is
terrifying."
If she'd said "The reported numbers are the tip of the iceberg"
you'd
have
a
point, but she didn't. She specifically said that honour killings
*themselves* were the tip of the iceberg, the iceberg itself being
honour
crimes in general (I have no idea what they might be, but seeing as
she
made
a distinction between honour crimes and honour killings we can
safely
assume
they don't involve fatalitie). Read it again, this is the only
possible
interpretation.
"What is under the surface is terrifying" sounds pretty, fairly,
relatively or extremely serious to me.
Maybe, but it doesn't refer to honour killings being "extremely
common"
(honour *crimes* maybe), which is what you falsely claimed. I admit
the
reason for the false claim was suspect reading comprehension rather
than
dishonesty though.
My reading comprehension is just fine!
Apparently not.
I've already made my arguements and
am not going to regurgitate them!
Probably best not to, seeing as tehy were based on a failure to
understand
what teh woman said..
I understood perfectly what the woman said.
You obvioulsy didn't, you assumed the "iceberg" in her metaphor was
undiscovered honour killings and that quite clearly wasn't what she said.
Besides, how can you claim "it's all in the interpretation" and "I
understand perfectly" at the same time? Surely if you can "understand
perfectly" there's no need for any interpretation?
"Honor *crimes* are happening all over Turkey...Honor *killings* are the tip
of the iceberg"
See?
<snip>
..and it predates Islam too, so those countries were practising
circumsision
before Islam came along.
It might be the "cultural norm" for the country, not for Islam the
religion.
How many more times?
Human sacrifices were the cultural norm for the celts
*****! Who told you that? The same people who told you the IRA never
targeted civilians I expect.
Read your history.
I have, the only people to mention celtic human sacrifce are the Romans, and
they had an agenda to portray the celts as savages (just like you). There is
no *conclusive* evidence one way or the other. If such sacrifiices were
carried out they were very infrequent and the victim was probably willing.
Are you saying that the druids did not perform
human sacrifices??? I assure you, they did.
Your assurance means nothing I'm afraid. Even the foremost experts on Celtic
culture would stop short of saying they *definitely* carried out human
sacrifice.
and also the Aztecs
(for example).
Well, the "norm" in the sense it went unpunished, but it was a very rare
occurence.
When they were converted to Christianity, the church put a
stop to those practices.
Yeah, they just had the inquisition instead..
Mainly in Spain (though not exclusively)
No, not exclusively at all. Hundreds of thousands of pre-Colombian Indians
were wiped out by the catholics. They found the Conquistadors to be far more
bloodthirsty than themselves.
and not throughout the entire
history of the religion.
You can't blame things that pre-date a religion on that religion as you are
trying to do with hnour killings/Islam.
The fact that Islam continues to tolerate honour
killings tells me that they have adopted the practice with enthusiasm!
Tolerate == practice with enthusiaism?! Please buy a dictionary Jane
Some tolerate; some practice with enthusiasm!
Sometimes you really appear idiotic, I'm afraid. Do you now withdraw your
statement
"The fact that Islam continues to tolerate honour killings tells me that
they have adopted the practice with enthusiasm!"
The innocent girl is
still dead!
See? All emotion, no logic. Yes, the poor girl is dead, but the event is a
comparitively rare one and not something that characterises Islam, is
sanctioned by Islam, defended or justified by Islam. In Catholic countries
such as Mexico child prostitution is more or less ignored and sanctioned -
does this mean we should fear Catholicism as they want to ***** our children?
Hell, most of the priests seem to get caught kiddy fiddling, surely that
means paedophilia is the "cultural norm" in catholic societies? And what is
a woman's worth in those cultures? Wife beating goes unpunished, so
wifebetaing is the "cultural norm" in South America and Southern Europe?
I think you would be surprised to find that many male
muslims, if not most, do condone it.
I certainly would be surprised! Do you have any evidence to back up
this
assertion? I think the attention you pay to honour killings is
grossly
disproportionate to the frequency of the crime and its acceptance
amongst
people across the Islamic world which is infinitely more diverse in
culture
and attitudes that even the US.
I think you should do a quick google search (use the American
spelling)
and
you will be amazed.
Do you have a cite that "many male muslims, if not most, do condone
it."? Or
was that just another unsuipported assertion you pulled out of your hat?
So it was just another unsupported assertion you pulled out of your hat.
I think a great deal of attention needs to be paid to
the issues of women in Islam...
Obviously...
honour killings, genital mutilation, gender
apartheid...
All part of cultures which existed before Islam, and therefore cant be
used
as examples of Islamic "evil"
All adopted by Islam.
...in the same way drug abuse, murder and other crimes were "adopted" by
Western Civilisation?
It's an emotive issue for sure, which presumably is why you can't be
logical
about it.
perhaps if you were female, you would understand.
LOL!
Why is that funny?
See above.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
06 Jul 2004 05:56:09 PM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:ccdip3$mmu$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8a04f01.0407051110.242dd993@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<ccb0s2$ktp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5AFc.197277$207.2245732@news20.bellglobal.com...
Agreed. So why are you claiming it IS the cultural norm for an
Islamic
country`?
Because their system does not punish them, mainly.
Ah.. so "cultural norm" means "the crime goes unpunished" in your
view?
If the society tolerates and does not punish it, then, yes, it is a
cultural norm.
But these societies ARE punishing honour killings, and muclism clerics are
spekaing out against it (round and round we go..)
*One* cleric, per your article. I'm sure there are more, just as I am sure
that they one thing for public consumption and other things entirely in
their mosques.
<snip>
Yes it is. The question was how many times something has to happen
per
year
for it to be a "cultural norm" or "common occurrence".
And I think that question misses the point entirely! The point is
that
the
culture tolerates a high level of misogyny, of which honour killings
are
just one of the more gruesome aspects (along with stoning
adultresses
and
jailing rape victims for "zina")
But these are not characteristics of Islam..
They most certainly are!
Nope, no more than drug abuse is part of Christianity. YOu need to speraet
things that happen in SOME countries which are primarily Islamic from
things
which actually happen as a result of Islam.
They use Islam as a justification.
They are practiced in Islamic nations and
none other that I am aware of!
There are non-Islamic Kurds who still carry out honour killings.
(India does have "bride burnings", but
that is all about money and/or male heirs)
Yet you don't go railing against the evils of Hinduism, because you're
bigotyr is soley directed at Islam?
Hindus are not at war against the west; they have their own problems with
muslims (read "The Clash of Civilizations" by Samuel Huntington; muslims
have trouble getting along with anyone else). Of course, bride burnings are
a horrific crime and the murderers should be dealt with severely. However,
I do not think that religion is used as justification the way it is with
Islamic honour killings.
when these girls are being killed for
having been raped and have absolutely no way of proving that
they were helpless to prevent it.
You don't have to convince me that honour killings are cruel and
unjust,
I
have stated many times that I think that. What we are discussing
is
how
much
of a "cultural norm" they are, You appera to have agreed they are
not a
cultural norm, as similar levels of a specific crime in the US
would
not
be
a cultural norm either.
Not at all, you are being disingenuous again! I did say that the US
is a
more violent culture than the rest of the west, but also that
murders
are
punished if convicted. That is the main difference! Until Islamic
countries are willing to punish the killers, I have to say it is
cultural.
In other words you have redefined your definition of "cultural norm"
because
your old definition was shown to be weak.
No, it was laways part of my old definition.
Shame you didn't say so form the beginning.. you just went on about how it
was "fairl common" and according to some article you didn't even read
properly "extremely common"!
Oh, I read the article just fine! You should talk...you gave me a cite that
you said indicated 20 honour killings/yr in Jordan and I read 25-30 with
many unreported in the very same article!
Actually, except when Tony is arguing with Dani et al, he
makes a lot more sense then you do.
Because he and you share similar prejudices?
he , and a few others
here, knows what Islam is all about.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<deep breath> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! <wipes tear
from
eye>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Tony is a bigoted ***** when it comes to Islam (and many other
things).
I expected that reaction. I disagree with Tony on many things, but
he
is
right when it comes to Islam!
There's little point talking to you then is there? If you regard Tony
as
an
authority on Islam then you really have serious problems..
I didn't say he is "an authority"!
Yes you did: "he , and a few others here, knows what Islam is all about."
he knows that there is an element
"..knows what Islam is all about." - an element is what Islam is "all
about"?!
of Islam that has plans to eventually form a world-wide caliphate,
So what? There are crazies in every religion. They are , of course, a
miniscule minority, yet you are bigoted against the majority.
and that there is a danger to our civilization.
Hardly. The UK has had sustained mulsim immigration for about 50 years
now,
with no problems except one or two crazy extremists on both sides. The two
cultures have assimillated very well and show no signs of wanting to
exterminate each other. ¨
Not exterminate each other necessarily, but in one of the articles I posted
re sharia law in Canada, it did mention that they had asked for sharia in
Britain and were turned down (your govt is smarter than mine, obviously!)
They will not let it go at that...as numbers increase to the point that they
can begin electing muslim MPs, you will find your country begins to change
You may believe that is as it should be in a democracy, but when muslims get
*real* power, you may find you no longer have a democracy (looking
*many*years down the road, of course)
Y'know I have read advice for and by muslims that they should live in groups
and have many children, with the aim being to eventually have the power to
bring in their own law based on sharia in a given area.
<snip>
She specifically said that honour killings
*themselves* were the tip of the iceberg, the iceberg itself being
honour
crimes in general (I have no idea what they might be, but seeing
as
she
made
a distinction between honour crimes and honour killings we can
safely
assume
they don't involve fatalitie). Read it again, this is the only
possible
interpretation.
"What is under the surface is terrifying" sounds pretty, fairly,
relatively or extremely serious to me.
Maybe, but it doesn't refer to honour killings being "extremely
common"
(honour *crimes* maybe), which is what you falsely claimed. I
admit
the
reason for the false claim was suspect reading comprehension
rather
than
dishonesty though.
My reading comprehension is just fine!
Apparently not.
I've already made my arguements and
am not going to regurgitate them!
Probably best not to, seeing as tehy were based on a failure to
understand
what teh woman said..
I understood perfectly what the woman said.
You obvioulsy didn't, you assumed the "iceberg" in her metaphor was
undiscovered honour killings and that quite clearly wasn't what she said.
Besides, how can you claim "it's all in the interpretation" and "I
understand perfectly" at the same time? Surely if you can "understand
perfectly" there's no need for any interpretation?
"Honor *crimes* are happening all over Turkey...Honor *killings* are the
tip
of the iceberg"
See?
Now, after all that, where does she refer to non-fatal honour crimes??? And
what exactly is an "honour crime", if not a murder?
<snip>
..and it predates Islam too, so those countries were practising
circumsision
before Islam came along.
It might be the "cultural norm" for the country, not for Islam the
religion.
How many more times?
Human sacrifices were the cultural norm for the celts
*****! Who told you that? The same people who told you the IRA
never
targeted civilians I expect.
Read your history.
I have, the only people to mention celtic human sacrifce are the Romans,
and
they had an agenda to portray the celts as savages (just like you).
I do not portray the celts as savage (nor the aztec). I am of celtic
descent, in part. They were a product of their time in history. I have
made the point many times that the muslims are stuck back in the 12th
century.
There is
no *conclusive* evidence one way or the other. If such sacrifiices were
carried out they were very infrequent and the victim was probably willing.
Yes, I agree that the victim was often willing and was groomed for the
occasion. Doesn't make it right, however.
Are you saying that the druids did not perform
human sacrifices??? I assure you, they did.
Your assurance means nothing I'm afraid. Even the foremost experts on
Celtic
culture would stop short of saying they *definitely* carried out human
sacrifice.
Yes, the Romans were biased, but that does not mean they lied. This site
seems well-researched; I haven't read her cites, admittedly, but it seems
there is some other evidence beyond the Romans (which is what I have read
elsewhere)http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/sacrific.html
and also the Aztecs
(for example).
Well, the "norm" in the sense it went unpunished, but it was a very
rare
occurence.
When they were converted to Christianity, the church put a
stop to those practices.
Yeah, they just had the inquisition instead..
Mainly in Spain (though not exclusively)
No, not exclusively at all. Hundreds of thousands of pre-Colombian Indians
were wiped out by the catholics. They found the Conquistadors to be far
more
bloodthirsty than themselves.
And the conquistadors were what again? Oh, yes, Spanish!
and not throughout the entire
history of the religion.
You can't blame things that pre-date a religion on that religion as you
are
trying to do with hnour killings/Islam.
The fact that Islam continues to tolerate honour
killings tells me that they have adopted the practice with
enthusiasm!
Tolerate == practice with enthusiaism?! Please buy a dictionary Jane
Some tolerate; some practice with enthusiasm!
Sometimes you really appear idiotic, I'm afraid. Do you now withdraw your
statement
Of course I do...anyone who does not agree with *your* world view is
idiotic!
"The fact that Islam continues to tolerate honour killings tells me that
they have adopted the practice with enthusiasm!"
The innocent girl is
still dead!
See? All emotion, no logic. Yes, the poor girl is dead, but the event is a
comparitively rare one and not something that characterises Islam, is
sanctioned by Islam, defended or justified by Islam. In Catholic countries
such as Mexico child prostitution is more or less ignored and sanctioned -
does this mean we should fear Catholicism as they want to ***** our
children?
Hell, most of the priests seem to get caught kiddy fiddling, surely that
means paedophilia is the "cultural norm" in catholic societies? And what
is
a woman's worth in those cultures? Wife beating goes unpunished, so
wifebetaing is the "cultural norm" in South America and Southern Europe?
In some areas, wife beating, unfotunately, is a cultural norm. In Islam,
for example, as well as some of the places you mentioned.
I think I have said before that, although raised Catholic, I am not
religious. The church makes a huge mistake insisting on celebacy. However,
we also find pedophiles among teachers, boy scout leaders, ministers of
other religions, sports coaches, etc etc
I think you would be surprised to find that many male
muslims, if not most, do condone it.
I certainly would be surprised! Do you have any evidence to back
up
this
assertion? I think the attention you pay to honour killings is
grossly
disproportionate to the frequency of the crime and its acceptance
amongst
people across the Islamic world which is infinitely more diverse
in
culture
and attitudes that even the US.
I think you should do a quick google search (use the American
spelling)
and
you will be amazed.
Do you have a cite that "many male muslims, if not most, do condone
it."? Or
was that just another unsuipported assertion you pulled out of your
hat?
So it was just another unsupported assertion you pulled out of your hat.
I think a great deal of attention needs to be paid to
the issues of women in Islam...
Obviously...
honour killings, genital mutilation, gender
apartheid...
All part of cultures which existed before Islam, and therefore cant be
used
as examples of Islamic "evil"
All adopted by Islam.
..in the same way drug abuse, murder and other crimes were "adopted" by
Western Civilisation?
It is debatable whether drug "abuse" is a crime. As for murder, that is
just human nature, unfortunately. It is when it happens frequently and is
unpunished and is justified by religion/ culture that it becomes the norm.
It's an emotive issue for sure, which presumably is why you can't be
logical
about it.
I am quite logical about it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: repost_ Turkey condems honour killings |
07 Jul 2004 07:33:07 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h6GGc.21817$WM5.967533@news20.bellglobal.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:ccdip3$mmu$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8a04f01.0407051110.242dd993@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<ccb0s2$ktp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5AFc.197277$207.2245732@news20.bellglobal.com...
<snip>
If the society tolerates and does not punish it, then, yes, it is a
cultural norm.
But these societies ARE punishing honour killings, and muclism clerics
are
spekaing out against it (round and round we go..)
*One* cleric, per your article. I'm sure there are more, just as I am
sure
that they one thing for public consumption and other things entirely in
their mosques.
Yes, well you're sure about lots of things, doesn't make them true though.
<snip>
Yes it is. The question was how many times something has to
happen
per
year
for it to be a "cultural norm" or "common occurrence".
And I think that question misses the point entirely! The point is
that
the
culture tolerates a high level of misogyny, of which honour
killings
are
just one of the more gruesome aspects (along with stoning
adultresses
and
jailing rape victims for "zina")
But these are not characteristics of Islam..
They most certainly are!
Nope, no more than drug abuse is part of Christianity. YOu need to
speraet
things that happen in SOME countries which are primarily Islamic from
things
which actually happen as a result of Islam.
They use Islam as a justification.
So what? (Here we go again) The protestants who killed catholics in Belfast
and vice versa used religion as a justification, does that mean it was teh
fault of Christianity/Catholicism? Hitler used Christiainity to justify his
genocide of the jews, does that mean it was Christianity's fault?
Oh, and how come there are plenty of Islamic countries (e.g. Phillipines,
Indonesia) that don't have honour kilings then? Obviously because the root
of the problem is local culture, not Islam
They are practiced in Islamic nations and
none other that I am aware of!
There are non-Islamic Kurds who still carry out honour killings.
Well? This little fact doesn't tempt you to reconsider your bigotry?
(India does have "bride burnings", but
that is all about money and/or male heirs)
Yet you don't go railing against the evils of Hinduism, because you're
bigoty | | | | | | | |
