Russian forces planned to storm school
Tuesday 21 September 2004, 2:12 Makka Time, 23:12 GMT
The head of Russia's FSB security service has admitted that plans were
made to storm the school holding hostages in Beslan, but they were not
ready when the confrontation erupted in violence.
Addressing a special session of the upper house of the Russian legislature
on Monday, FSB chief Nikolai Patrushev said the violence was triggered by
an accidental blast in the school.
The session was called to discuss new Russian security measures and the
situation in the north Caucasus.
"We planned an assault, but we were not ready at that exact moment,"
Federation Council member Alexei Mitrofanov quoted Patrushev as saying.
Patrushev's reported comments marked a departure from remarks by other
Russian officials who had so far stated that there were no plans to use
violence to end the hostage siege at the school in Beslan.
Bloody culmination
The bloody culmination of the confrontation on 3 September involved
exchanges of heavy fire not just between the hostage-takers and security
forces, but also with armed local residents.
The crisis, the deadliest of its kind, resulted in the deaths of at least
339 people, half of them children, as well as the killing of 31 captors.
Russian authorities said there were 354 hostages held in the school while
other reports put the figure at 1200.
Patrushev also brushed off criticism over his absence from the scene,
saying he, like other Russian officials, "feared terrorist strikes in
other regions if they all visited Beslan at the same time".
The Federation Council and the Duma will create a 21-member parliamentary
commission to inquire into the hostage-taking.
Of the 11 chosen from the council, "five have experience of working in the
law and order forces and six are civilians", said council president
Serguei Mironov.
"In selecting them, we took into consideration the right of these people
to access top secret documents," Mironov said, adding that no commission
members would have the right to comment publicly during the enquiry.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/68F25C42-FA41-4B19-9560-717AE0F85291.htm
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 05:56:51 AM |
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AK a écrit:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:18:18 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
The Russians are good guys compared to these scums of the universe.
Nope. The Russians are barbarians. They are occupying Chechnya, not the other
way around. That's the root cause.
Nah Russia is theirs, has been theirs for 150 years, The bad Chechens
are the only one spoiling it for everybody there, and they will be
eliminated as public service.
Up yours terrorists supporter.
J.
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| User: "AK" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 06:56:21 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:56:51 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
Nah Russia is theirs, has been theirs for 150 years
Nope. People who live in Chechnya would make that decision, and they have chosen
to rejected Russian occupation. Thus, Russians are responsible for everything by
suppressing nationalist Chechen struggle.
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 10:57:37 PM |
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In article <2ce5l0pkq9v7rmhtqbtns8ii50inuaili3@4ax.com>,
AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:56:51 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
Nah Russia is theirs, has been theirs for 150 years
Nope. People who live in Chechnya would make that decision, and they have
chosen
to rejected Russian occupation. Thus, Russians are responsible for everything
by
suppressing nationalist Chechen struggle.
For "everything"? OIC. So the actual gunmen who actually shot down
completely & totally innocent children, not a one of which was even
mildly responsible for the oppression of the Chechen people, are not
even slightly responsible for their own actions?
Were these gunmen in actual truth mechanical robots programmed by the
Russian government, without any free will of their own?
Oh dear, & you did know already that not quite "all" of these gunmen
were Chechens, or had even been especially familiar with any Chechen who
had, even in the mildest way, been oppressed by the Russian government,
correct?
Oh dear yes, the Russian government is hardly innocent of this affair.
And absolutely equivalent guilt, absolutely, is shared by the actual
extremists who ardently believe that fanaticism is the first, & only,
method which should ever, ever, ever be attempted, to address any
grievance whatsoever, from the most profound to the most trivial, &
every variation in between.
To attribute primary, or gawd forbid, exclusive blame, to either one
side or the other, constitutes extremely ill-advised simplistic thinking.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 09:39:30 AM |
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Nope, only bandits.
J.
AK a écrit:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:56:51 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
Nah Russia is theirs, has been theirs for 150 years
Nope. People who live in Chechnya would make that decision, and they have chosen
to rejected Russian occupation. Thus, Russians are responsible for everything by
suppressing nationalist Chechen struggle.
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 10:47:34 PM |
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In article <do75l012ppbirfgqu5qi075d434fok4aqh@4ax.com>,
AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:18:18 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
The Russians are good guys compared to these scums of the universe.
Nope. The Russians are barbarians. They are occupying Chechnya, not the other
way around. That's the root cause.
I take it you mean "the" root cause of the terrorism. If so, to
attribute it to a singular root cause is misleading in the extreme. Of
absolutely equivalent causative effect is the widespread mindset,
primarily in a certain part of the world, actively encouraged
continuously for decades by its own local governments & factions, that
the earliest type of action which is even contemplated, let alone
acted-upon, should be the most extreme type of action within one's
abilities.
Oh yes, yes, & yes, the Russians have indeed been little short of
"barbaric" in their actions toward Chechnya.
Not a tithe less "barbaric" was the Chinese occupation of Tibet, which
persists to the present day.
And yet, though the legitimate grievances of Tibetans are no less valid,
strangely, they don't seem to have been taught, as a whole people, by
their own regimes & most influential religious factions, to resort to
the most fanatical methods first, before trying anything else.
One suspects this is why Tibetan "terrorists" are tremendously more
under the radar, so to speak, than terrorists purporting to "belong" to
a certain other "creed."
That's just one of many, many, many examples of a whole people who have
suffered at *least* as much as the Chechens, & who yet, strangely, have
not inspired nearly as large a group of "terrorists" (quite a few of
whom do not actually belong to the specific group being oppressed) to
come flocking willy-nilly to their "cause."
It is also rather misleading to claim that the Russians are "occupying"
Chechnya, since Chechnya has not for a single moment in its entire
history been an "independent" country, but instead has been part of
"Russia" for centuries.
Not that I, for a single moment, lack sympathy for the cause of Chechen
independence. I seem to recall that we Americans have ardently
supported, in many different years, fights for independence of, for
example, Latin American countries from Spain.
Nevertheless, I find it a rather novel claim to speak of a country
"occupying" a region which has already been within its borders for
centuries.
No less novel than a claim that the United States is "occupying" the
Louisiana Purchase, which has been within its borders for a shorter time
than Chechnya has been within Russia's borders.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
29 Sep 2004 06:40:36 PM |
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Rob Mitchell a écrit:
In article <do75l012ppbirfgqu5qi075d434fok4aqh@4ax.com>,
AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:18:18 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
The Russians are good guys compared to these scums of the universe.
Nope. The Russians are barbarians. They are occupying Chechnya, not the other
way around. That's the root cause.
This is a lie. Chechnya has been part of Russia for well over 150 years.
I take it you mean "the" root cause of the terrorism. If so, to
attribute it to a singular root cause is misleading in the extreme. Of
absolutely equivalent causative effect is the widespread mindset,
primarily in a certain part of the world, actively encouraged
continuously for decades by its own local governments & factions, that
the earliest type of action which is even contemplated, let alone
acted-upon, should be the most extreme type of action within one's
abilities.
Oh yes, yes, & yes, the Russians have indeed been little short of
"barbaric" in their actions toward Chechnya.
Not a tithe less "barbaric" was the Chinese occupation of Tibet, which
persists to the present day.
And yet, though the legitimate grievances of Tibetans are no less valid,
strangely, they don't seem to have been taught, as a whole people, by
their own regimes & most influential religious factions, to resort to
the most fanatical methods first, before trying anything else.
One suspects this is why Tibetan "terrorists" are tremendously more
under the radar, so to speak, than terrorists purporting to "belong" to
a certain other "creed."
That's just one of many, many, many examples of a whole people who have
suffered at *least* as much as the Chechens, & who yet, strangely, have
not inspired nearly as large a group of "terrorists" (quite a few of
whom do not actually belong to the specific group being oppressed) to
come flocking willy-nilly to their "cause."
It is also rather misleading to claim that the Russians are "occupying"
Chechnya, since Chechnya has not for a single moment in its entire
history been an "independent" country, but instead has been part of
"Russia" for centuries.
Not that I, for a single moment, lack sympathy for the cause of Chechen
independence. I seem to recall that we Americans have ardently
supported, in many different years, fights for independence of, for
example, Latin American countries from Spain.
Nevertheless, I find it a rather novel claim to speak of a country
"occupying" a region which has already been within its borders for
centuries.
No less novel than a claim that the United States is "occupying" the
Louisiana Purchase, which has been within its borders for a shorter time
than Chechnya has been within Russia's borders.
Exactly. Exactly.
J.
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 10:28:28 PM |
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In article <cpl4l0laahluqv2o654r7didt6u9a3lor2@4ax.com>,
AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:23:09 -0400, "Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote:
None of this matters. if the Chechen terrorists had not chosen to take
innocent children hostage, we would not even need to discuss the actions of
the Russians. The Chechens are responsible. Period.
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
Thank you very much.
Not.
Those who actually plan & commit atrocities are always, without a single
exception, primarily responsible for those same atrocities.
When a couple of Australian men raped a Muslim woman immediately after
September 11 2001, merely because she was Muslim & for no other reason
whatsoever (this was reported in the media at the time), was it the
terrorists, or the rapists themselves, who were primarily guilty of the
rape?
Oh, there are indeed root causes which lead inevitably to the mindset of
desperation & futility, which then make it more likely that some of an
intrinsic fanatical viewpoint will resort to extreme methods.
The hands of the Russian government are hardly clean in this matter.
Nevertheless, it is extremely misleading to attribute anything close to
primary blame on anyone other than the gunmen themselves who murdered
mere innocent children who were not even tangentially "responsible" for
the real, or imagined, "grievances" of said gunmen.
I additionally seem to recall that not quite "all" of these gunmen were
Chechens, & thus were not themselves actual victims of Russian
atrocities, nor were they personally related to, or especially
acquainted with, anyone who had suffered these same atrocities.
Instead they seem to have come from the "Let's rush headlong,
mindlessly, to any region of the world to which our economic abilities
will get us, in which 'our' people (in reality they aren't, but let's
pretend they are) are being oppressed, & let's additionally use only the
most extreme methods known, without trying anything else first, to get
our 'way'" school of thought.
Anyone who presumes an entirely separate entity, no matter what
atrocities it has committed, to be primarily responsible for these same
extreme methods which have already been taught to this "school" for
decades by its own local regimes & local factions, beginning long before
the atrocities by the separate entity were committed, is sorely in need
of learning the true meaning of the term "primary responsibility."
Root causes, yes, hell yes.
And among those root causes, of absolutely equivalent causative effect,
are not only the oppression of a people by a government, but also the
school of thought which teaches millions of people that fanaticism is
the attitude which should be adopted first, before any other attitude
ever known in all of recorded human history is even considered.
Strange that, historically, almost exclusively non-violent protest has
been demonstrated repeatedly to accomplish, in a few meager years, what
decades of violent terrorism has consistently failed, utterly, to
accomplish.
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| User: "Dani" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 01:35:43 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:58:44 GMT, AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:23:09 -0400, "Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote:
None of this matters. if the Chechen terrorists had not chosen to take
innocent children hostage, we would not even need to discuss the actions of
the Russians. The Chechens are responsible. Period.
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
How dare you? We are talking about KIDS! Does that enter your
poisoned cranium? Kids... tots... children. How can you attempt to
make an excuse when it comes to kids?? There is NOTHING you
or anyone can say or do to justify this.
Dani
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 11:02:06 PM |
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In article <sfr4l0l3d53hdt90bklunch4edsopm7ss2@4ax.com>,
Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 04:58:44 GMT, AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:23:09 -0400, "Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote:
None of this matters. if the Chechen terrorists had not chosen to take
innocent children hostage, we would not even need to discuss the actions of
the Russians. The Chechens are responsible. Period.
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
How dare you? We are talking about KIDS! Does that enter your
poisoned cranium? Kids... tots... children. How can you attempt to
make an excuse when it comes to kids?? There is NOTHING you
or anyone can say or do to justify this.
Amen.
No matter how horrific the atrocities committed by a government, or any
other entity, to brutally murder mere innocent children who cannot
possibly be even mildly responsible for even a single one of those
atrocities is always, without a single exception, one of the most
morally-reprehensible acts that can possibly be committed by any human
on earth.
Even if the original atrocities themselves included the brutal murder of
children.
Even then.
The murder of children is ***STILL*** not justified.
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| User: "AK" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 01:39:41 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:35:43 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
How dare you? We are talking about KIDS! Does that enter your
poisoned cranium? Kids... tots... children. How can you attempt to
make an excuse when it comes to kids?? There is NOTHING you
or anyone can say or do to justify this.
Where did I justify it? We are talking about the root cause and why it happened.
I stand by what I wrote above.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 07:55:41 AM |
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AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message news:<jpr4l0tfcnhknm4supbi6vsqbdbqlblc9r@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:35:43 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
How dare you? We are talking about KIDS! Does that enter your
poisoned cranium? Kids... tots... children. How can you attempt to
make an excuse when it comes to kids?? There is NOTHING you
or anyone can say or do to justify this.
Where did I justify it? We are talking about the root cause and why it happened.
You're been trying (unsuccesfully) to justify it since it happened.
I stand by what I wrote above.
Of course you do. You've made it very clear that you *approve* of the
targeting of CHILDREN for MURDER and MAIMING by your Islamic
Fundamentalist terrorist friends. NOTHING can justify that.
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| User: "AK" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 09:34:50 AM |
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On 23 Sep 2004 05:55:41 -0700, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
You're been trying (unsuccesfully) to justify it since it happened.
I stand by what I wrote above.
Nope. I explained the root cause. Explaining the root cause is not a
justification. It only puts the blame on Russians.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 10:35:12 AM |
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AK a écrit:
On 23 Sep 2004 05:55:41 -0700, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
You're been trying (unsuccesfully) to justify it since it happened.
I stand by what I wrote above.
Nope. I explained the root cause. Explaining the root cause is not a
justification. It only puts the blame on Russians.
***** lie.
The excuse for killing kids is not a cause, especially that it is false.
J.
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 11:41:51 PM |
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In article <fmn5l0l5st1joq5ham6lkli2icm5tvqs2d@4ax.com>,
AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote:
On 23 Sep 2004 05:55:41 -0700, (Steven Douglas) wrote:
You're been trying (unsuccesfully) to justify it since it happened.
Nope. I explained the root cause. Explaining the root cause is not a
justification. It only puts the blame on Russians.
That's fine, except for the usage of the word "cause" in singular form.
In reality there are "causes" (plural) for the terrorism, & of
absolutely equivalent "cause" is the extremists themselves, who ardently
believe that only the most fanatical methods should ever be tried to
address any grievance whatsoever, to the complete exclusion of any other
method imaginable.
For decades they've been taught by their own local governments & local
factions, without the slightest urging from any non-local entity
whatsoever, that one is to resort to the most violent methods first,
before considering any other method.
You do know what part of the world most of them come from, correct?
You additionally know that not exactly "all" of the men who gunned-down
the children in Beslan were themselves Chechens, or had even known a
single Chechen for very long prior to that incident, right?
I seem to recall that even the IRA is composed almost exclusively of
people born on a single island, or direct descendants of people born on
that island. Am I wrong?
In tremendously stark contrast, a smaller percentage of people who
actually commit terrorism for the purported cause of Chechen
independence are related, even distantly, to anyone born in Chechnya.
Or am I wrong about that too?
If I am, I will be nothing less than pleased to see my misconceptions
demonstrated with credible evidence.
Thanks.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 04:35:09 AM |
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AK a écrit:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:35:43 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
How dare you? We are talking about KIDS! Does that enter your
poisoned cranium? Kids... tots... children. How can you attempt to
make an excuse when it comes to kids?? There is NOTHING you
or anyone can say or do to justify this.
Where did I justify it? We are talking about the root cause and why it happened.
I stand by what I wrote above.
No root cause means anything here.
They are torturers and murderers of kids, and if the cause has anything
to do with it then it is a worthless cause, *****.
And it is anyway, they decided to ***** up Russia and then they whine
when they don't get their way,. Fucking Muslims killers. Like everywhere
they pretend to use God for their perverted sadism. All these Muslim
terrorists and their supporters are the monsters of the world.
The worst ever and only ones to specifically go for innocent lives for
no (valid) reason.
ONLY ISLAM PRODUCES THAT KIND OF TOTAL *****.
J.
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| User: "AK" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 05:04:45 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:35:09 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
They are torturers and murderers of kids, and if the cause has anything
to do with it then it is a worthless cause, *****.
Nope. They would have not been murdering kids if there was no war. There would
have been no war if the Russians were not occupying their land. Thus, the
Russians are responsible.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 06:03:47 AM |
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AK a écrit:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:35:09 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
They are torturers and murderers of kids, and if the cause has anything
to do with it then it is a worthless cause, *****.
Nope. They would have not been murdering kids if there was no war. There would
have been no war if the Russians were not occupying their land. Thus, the
Russians are responsible.
This is Russian land dumbo, they are a province of Russia idiot.
They are responsible for every single ***** that happens there.
but taking kids hostage wouldn'T be justified even if they had a good
cause. Which they don't.
They are the scums of the earth corrupted by Muslim extremism. No other
ideology would ever pretend that God make them do crimes.
Only pieces of ***** Muslims murderers do that. The BAD Muslims and those
who support them. And these bad Chechen spoil it for he good Chechen and
for every body. They are responsible FOR ALL THE ***** and NONE else is.
PERIOD. Get a fucking clue about politics. All the countries that lost
wars 150 years ago accept their fate. The US doesn't belong to England
for instance. never England would say, hey we lost but we don't accept
it. It is history. Only fucking Muslims pieces of ***** murderers cannot
accept facts and want to make war all the time.
They belong with *****, in the ground.
J.
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| User: "AK" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 07:01:22 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:03:47 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
Nope. They would have not been murdering kids if there was no war. There would
have been no war if the Russians were not occupying their land. Thus, the
Russians are responsible.
This is Russian land dumbo, they are a province of Russia idiot.
Nope. Already refuted. Chechens are not Russians. They don't speak the same
language, they don't have the same religion, the same history, or ethnicity.
They have been at war continuously for centuries against the Russian aggression.
Thus, Russians are responsible.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 09:40:59 AM |
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AK a écrit:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:03:47 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
Nope. They would have not been murdering kids if there was no war. There would
have been no war if the Russians were not occupying their land. Thus, the
Russians are responsible.
This is Russian land dumbo, they are a province of Russia idiot.
Nope. Already refuted. Chechens are not Russians. They don't speak the same
language, they don't have the same religion, the same history, or ethnicity.
They have been at war continuously for centuries against the Russian aggression.
Thus, Russians are responsible.
Yes tehy are partt of the Russian Federation. They are not independent.
They have never been recognized as independent in 150 years.
And never will at that rate.
J.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 09:41:19 AM |
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AK a écrit:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:03:47 GMT, Jean Guernon <jguernon@globetrotter.net>
wrote:
Nope. They would have not been murdering kids if there was no war. There would
have been no war if the Russians were not occupying their land. Thus, the
Russians are responsible.
This is Russian land dumbo, they are a province of Russia idiot.
Nope. Already refuted. Chechens are not Russians. They don't speak the same
language, they don't have the same religion, the same history, or ethnicity.
They have been at war continuously for centuries against the Russian aggression.
Thus, Russians are responsible.
Yes they are part of the Russian Federation. They are not independent.
They have never been recognized as independent in 150 years.
And never will at that rate.
J.
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 11:28:23 PM |
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In article <jpr4l0tfcnhknm4supbi6vsqbdbqlblc9r@4ax.com>,
AK <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:35:43 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Now take this a step back. What's the root cause? If the Russians had not
invaded Chechnya, Chechen terrorists would have not taken innocent children
hostage. Who is responsible then? The Russians.
How dare you? We are talking about KIDS! Does that enter your
poisoned cranium? Kids... tots... children. How can you attempt to
make an excuse when it comes to kids?? There is NOTHING you
or anyone can say or do to justify this.
Where did I justify it? We are talking about the root cause and why it
happened.
I stand by what I wrote above.
You shouldn't, as you don't attribute any responsibility whatsoever to
the actual people who murdered the children, entirely of their own free
will. You know perfectly well that the Russian government did not
"force" them to shoot down children in cold blood.
No atrocity ever committed in all of human history, not even the Nazis
slaughtering thousands of children merely because they belonged to a
certain race and/or religion, justifies retaliation by descending to
engaging in the same kind of fundamentally-appalling murder of
innocents, for no other reason than that they are children of the
"enemy."
The actual people who themselves commit such atrocities are always,
without a single exception, supremely more guilty of the atrocities than
anyone else.
Always.
Regardless of what was done to them originally.
Britain was exclusively responsible for the colonization of India.
Indians wanted their freedom too, just like the Chechens. Yet one man
almost single-handedly gained complete & total independence for India
within a far shorter number of years than Chechens have been fighting
for theirs.
I think his name starts with a "G."
And it was done almost entirely without any "fighting" at all, but
instead through primarily non-violent protest.
Strange how quickly that worked, & yet how slowly (at less than a
snail's pace) terrorism has historically accomplished its stated goals.
Last time I checked, Northern Ireland was still firmly part of the
United Kingdom, despite decades of terrorism by the IRA which was for
the stated intention of forcing the U.K. to allow N.I. to reunify with
the rest of Ireland.
Last time I checked, there was still no independent Palestinian state,
despite 56 years of terrorism which was purported the entire time to be
for the purpose of accomplishing that same goal.
And the last time I checked, it took less than a decade for one man to
lead an entire race of millions of members in one of the most populous
countries in the world to go from not being allowed to sit, eat, or
drink in certain areas in approximately one-fourth of that country, to a
status in which no one any longer dared to restrict that race in such
fashion, as the public backlash would be so incredible & widespread that
the few remaining persons & businesses who did so would immediately
experience such scathing criticism (& legal action) that their very
livelihoods would be severely affected, all of this accomplished with
almost exclusively non-violent protest?
I think his initials are "M.L.K.," or something like that.
Gee, which method has been historically demonstrated, time & time & time
again, to be tremendously more effective in achieving its stated goals,
in a tremendously shorter time?
Violent terrorism?
Or almost exclusively non-violent protest?
.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
22 Sep 2004 08:54:01 PM |
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Dr. Blunt a écrit:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:cQg4d.73904$KU5.6755@edtnps89...
Dr. Blunt a écrit:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:ePb4d.113352$XP3.75883@edtnps84...
Dr. Blunt a écrit SOME LAME PROPAGANDA SLUR FROM THE Aljazirah *****
SITE:
Russian forces planned to storm school
Good. Too bad the terrorists blew their plans.
And of course, any casualty responsibility is ONLY that of the MUSLIM
terrorists PIECES OF ***** and their sponsors and their supporters. OF
COURSE.
J.
The exact same story was carried by Western news sources.
Bah OF COURSE THE RUSSIAN WERE PLANNING SCENARIOS TO GET CONTROL and
still Muslims murderers assholes are the sole responsible.
J.
From everything I've seen on TV on this, especially the independent public
access channel's Democracy Now! news program, is that the first
(accidental) explosion cut short the planning. But, when you look at the
past Russian actions against terrorist hostage takers, many civilians lost
their lives despite whatever the best plan was that was executed.
So, this COULD have ended with a lot of killed or injured hostages,
anyway. With some 30 terrorists present in various rooms, I don't see how
they could've gone into it violently without the kids and adults getting
shot up. I've seen a detailed view on TV of the outside and inside of the
school, and it would've been precarious for the hostages had the Russians
used force (had the explosion not occurred), IMO.
Bah even had nothing happened the hostages would have died en masse
within a day or 2 at most, as they were killing them by denying them
even water.
You don't sit by and wait for these animals to do that if you are a
human being. You try to save some at least.
It's ironic that the West had much more criticism of the Russian govt. in
prior hostage incidents for rumbling in too quickly and with too much
force into a complex situation.
Dr. Blunt
Yes, ironic isn't it. Dumbos exist in the West as well.
J.
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| User: "Cuan" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 05:07:39 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:02:45 -0700, "Dr. Blunt" <ufocalypse@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:cQg4d.73904$KU5.6755@edtnps89...
Dr. Blunt a écrit:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:ePb4d.113352$XP3.75883@edtnps84...
Dr. Blunt a écrit SOME LAME PROPAGANDA SLUR FROM THE Aljazirah *****
SITE:
Russian forces planned to storm school
Good. Too bad the terrorists blew their plans.
And of course, any casualty responsibility is ONLY that of the MUSLIM
terrorists PIECES OF ***** and their sponsors and their supporters. OF
COURSE.
J.
The exact same story was carried by Western news sources.
Bah OF COURSE THE RUSSIAN WERE PLANNING SCENARIOS TO GET CONTROL and
still Muslims murderers assholes are the sole responsible.
J.
From everything I've seen on TV on this, especially the independent public
access channel's Democracy Now! news program, is that the first
(accidental) explosion cut short the planning. But, when you look at the
past Russian actions against terrorist hostage takers, many civilians lost
their lives despite whatever the best plan was that was executed.
So, this COULD have ended with a lot of killed or injured hostages,
anyway. With some 30 terrorists present in various rooms, I don't see how
they could've gone into it violently without the kids and adults getting
shot up. I've seen a detailed view on TV of the outside and inside of the
school, and it would've been precarious for the hostages had the Russians
used force (had the explosion not occurred), IMO.
It's ironic that the West had much more criticism of the Russian govt. in
prior hostage incidents for rumbling in too quickly and with too much
force into a complex situation.
Indeed. The only difference between this and prior incidents, is the
end result that was achieved.
.
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| User: "Jean Guernon" |
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| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
23 Sep 2004 06:07:31 AM |
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Cuan a écrit:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:02:45 -0700, "Dr. Blunt" <ufocalypse@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:cQg4d.73904$KU5.6755@edtnps89...
Dr. Blunt a écrit:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:ePb4d.113352$XP3.75883@edtnps84...
Dr. Blunt a écrit SOME LAME PROPAGANDA SLUR FROM THE Aljazirah *****
SITE:
Russian forces planned to storm school
Good. Too bad the terrorists blew their plans.
And of course, any casualty responsibility is ONLY that of the MUSLIM
terrorists PIECES OF ***** and their sponsors and their supporters. OF
COURSE.
J.
The exact same story was carried by Western news sources.
Bah OF COURSE THE RUSSIAN WERE PLANNING SCENARIOS TO GET CONTROL and
still Muslims murderers assholes are the sole responsible.
J.
From everything I've seen on TV on this, especially the independent public
access channel's Democracy Now! news program, is that the first
(accidental) explosion cut short the planning. But, when you look at the
past Russian actions against terrorist hostage takers, many civilians lost
their lives despite whatever the best plan was that was executed.
So, this COULD have ended with a lot of killed or injured hostages,
anyway. With some 30 terrorists present in various rooms, I don't see how
they could've gone into it violently without the kids and adults getting
shot up. I've seen a detailed view on TV of the outside and inside of the
school, and it would've been precarious for the hostages had the Russians
used force (had the explosion not occurred), IMO.
It's ironic that the West had much more criticism of the Russian govt. in
prior hostage incidents for rumbling in too quickly and with too much
force into a complex situation.
Indeed. The only difference between this and prior incidents, is the
end result that was achieved.
Of course they couldn't prevent ALL of the mass murder that the Muslims
pieces of ***** would have perpetrated anyway, but this end result the
Muslim killers had planned didn't exactly happen in either case.
Thanks to the good Russians. Sure they will have to improve it so they
get the pieces of ***** faster. But they had to improvise and still had a
better rate of success than letting the MUSLIM assassins kill the kids
by thirst, etc.
J.
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| User: "Rob Mitchell" |
|
| Title: Re: Russian Forces Planned to Storm School |
28 Sep 2004 08:28:51 PM |
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In article <cirvha015g6@enews4.newsguy.com>,
"Dr. Blunt" <ufocalypse@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Jean Guernon" <jguernon@globetrotter.net> wrote in message
news:ePb4d.113352$XP3.75883@edtnps84...
Dr. Blunt a écrit SOME LAME PROPAGANDA SLUR FROM THE Aljazirah *****
SITE:
Russian forces planned to storm school
Good. Too bad the terrorists blew their plans.
And of course, any casualty responsibility is ONLY that of the MUSLIM
terrorists PIECES OF ***** and their sponsors and their supporters. OF
COURSE.
J.
The exact same story was carried by Western news sources. When I said
nearly two weeks ago that witnesses had reported that the initial
explosion was accidentally set off (which started the Russian rush into
the school), since then, officially, Russian has acknowledged that fact.
What would've happened had the accidental explosion not happened? Would
Chechen militants and Russian officials have negotiated a peaceful ending
to this? The point being here is that it is now established that the
militants did not deliberately set off that explosion, apparently wanting
instead to go ahead with negotiations for the removal of Russian troops
and talks with Chechen nationalists on the sovereignty of their proposed
state.
Could be.
I'm curious though. I seem to recall that there were more than enough
witnesses to the terrorists gunning down children as they escaped the
school to pretty much guarantee that it actually did occur, beyond all
possible doubt. Did they gun down the children before or after the
explosion "accidentally" went off? More to the point: does it make any
significant difference whether they did it before or after the explosion?
Even more to the point: what is one to say of any human on earth, no
matter what the reasoning behind it, who places explosives in a building
full of children, whether or not that person actually "intends" to ever
set off the explosives?
I admit that I find the attitude totally alien to all that I believe in,
that to promote one's "cause," one kills mere children who cannot
possibly, even by the wildest stretch of the imagination, be even mildly
responsible for one's perceived "grievances."
.
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