Where are you, all you terrorist lovers?
.
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
13 Jul 2005 09:33:02 PM |
|
|
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121206396.721527.243170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1120836030.820601.247930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Tugboat Captain wrote:
MonsieurStat wrote / skrev:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists imperial
Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist. These
evildoers will and have become a serious "threat" to our personal
values and freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the
inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the
reason behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its growing
expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and
corrpution
in the world.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL! The religious leaders in Iran have it all! Not to
mention
the rulers of Saudi. "Islam" is to follow blind and bow down. A
perfect
tool to hold the people down.
Correct.
..so no different to any other organised religion then.
Incorrect.
Well, no different to Christianity, Catholicism etc which have all been used
to "hold the people down"
You are intent on ignoring one MAJOR difference, as I continued my
point:
Are you aware of a major religion that prescribes death for
those who choose to leave their religion or change religions?
Well, Christianity says if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, you get
death instead of eternal life, so there's one.
You're making an argument based on the concept of eternal life? Let's
talk about THIS life, the one you do believe in. Give me an example in
Christianity where a person is handed a death sentence by a religous
cleric for leaving or changing religions.
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Well, death is pretty final. And death is the point I raised, which is
the DIFFERENCE you choose to ignore.
I'd say the threat of death is a perfect tool to hold the people down --
which makes one religion unique among the religions.
Nope, all religion with a concept of an afterlife says you are disqualified
for forsaking the religion.
But if someone forsakes their religion, they must not care what the
religion believes -- get it? But if they happen to forsake ONE religion
in particular, they might wind up DEAD -- while forsaking other
religions might get you scorn, but you're still alive. It's really not
that difficult to understand -- there is a religion that is unique in
the death sentence department.
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Yes, but I gave an important example that is unique to one religion,
while you continue to claim all religions are the same.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
14 Jul 2005 02:18:32 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121308382.553159.271680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121206396.721527.243170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1120836030.820601.247930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Tugboat Captain wrote:
MonsieurStat wrote / skrev:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists
imperial
Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist.
These
evildoers will and have become a serious "threat" to our
personal
values and freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got
me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the
inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to
be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the
reason behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its
growing
expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice
and
corrpution
in the world.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL! The religious leaders in Iran have it all! Not to
mention
the rulers of Saudi. "Islam" is to follow blind and bow down. A
perfect
tool to hold the people down.
Correct.
..so no different to any other organised religion then.
Incorrect.
Well, no different to Christianity, Catholicism etc which have all been
used
to "hold the people down"
You are intent on ignoring one MAJOR difference,
...which you threw in AFTER I had made my point.
as I continued my
point:
Are you aware of a major religion that prescribes death for
those who choose to leave their religion or change religions?
Well, Christianity says if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, you
get
death instead of eternal life, so there's one.
You're making an argument based on the concept of eternal life?
Nope, I'm merely making the argument that Islam, like Christianity and
Catholicism and many other religions is a perfect tool to "hold the people
down"
Let's talk about THIS life, the one you do believe in. Give me an example
in
Christianity where a person is handed a death sentence by a religous
cleric for leaving or changing religions.
Is it your contention that the only wasy to "hold the people down" is to
threaten them with death if they change religion?
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Well, death is pretty final. And death is the point I raised, which is
the DIFFERENCE you choose to ignore.
Because it is not relevant to the FACT that Islam, like Christianity and
Catholicism and many other religions is a perfect tool to "hold the people
down". It's merely a red-herring you felt forced to bring up to deflect from
that fact.
BTW, how many e.g. British people with Muslim backgrounds who no longer
attend the mosque have been killed? Do you have any figures? The Bible says
it's an offence punsihable by death to stroke your cows on a tuedsday or
something - how many peopel are actually killed for doing it?
I'd say the threat of death is a perfect tool to hold the people
down --
which makes one religion unique among the religions.
Nope, all religion with a concept of an afterlife says you are
disqualified
for forsaking the religion.
But if someone forsakes their religion, they must not care what the
religion believes -- get it? But if they happen to forsake ONE religion
in particular, they might wind up DEAD -- while forsaking other
religions might get you scorn, but you're still alive. It's really not
that difficult to understand -- there is a religion that is unique in
the death sentence department.
Once again, is it your contention that the only wasy to "hold the people
down" is to threaten them with death if they change religion? I think it's
terrible to threaten anyone with death, for anything, just for the record. I
have yet to hear of european ex-muslims getting chopped for giving it up
though. Oh, and once again the Bible threatens us with death for:
Giving your seed to Molech,dishonouring your father/mother,homosexuality,
incest,adultery,bestaility, having a "familiar",swearing in an argument etc.
Compared to that, merely being killed for trying to leave the gang starts to
look positively enlightened...
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Yes, but I gave an important example that is unique to one religion,
while you continue to claim all religions are the same.
Nope, I merely claimed that all religions were equally good at being used to
"hold people down". But now you've built that strawman, you might as well
knock it down, I suppose.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
14 Jul 2005 10:46:37 PM |
|
|
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121308382.553159.271680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121206396.721527.243170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1120836030.820601.247930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Tugboat Captain wrote:
MonsieurStat wrote / skrev:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists
imperial Western globalization by violent means will be
called a terrorist.
These evildoers will and have become a serious "threat" to our
personal values and freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got
me wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause
the inception of international Islamic terror in the 7th
century? It HAD to be Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the
reason behind Islam's expansion back then, and it is the
reason of its growing expansion today. There is only
one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and corruption
in the world.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL! The religious leaders in Iran have it all! Not to
mention the rulers of Saudi. "Islam" is to follow blind and bow
down. A perfect tool to hold the people down.
Correct.
..so no different to any other organised religion then.
Incorrect.
Well, no different to Christianity, Catholicism etc which have all been
used to "hold the people down"
You are intent on ignoring one MAJOR difference,
..which you threw in AFTER I had made my point.
Yes, I made a point after you made a point. It's called debate, and
you're quite good at it most of the time. After you made your point, I
made my point to demonstrate why I think your point is incorrect.
as I continued my
point:
Are you aware of a major religion that prescribes death for
those who choose to leave their religion or change religions?
Well, Christianity says if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, you
get death instead of eternal life, so there's one.
You're making an argument based on the concept of eternal life?
Nope, I'm merely making the argument that Islam, like Christianity and
Catholicism and many other religions is a perfect tool to "hold the people
down"
And you absolutely refuse to acknowledge one MAJOR difference.
Let's talk about THIS life, the one you do believe in. Give me an example
in Christianity where a person is handed a death sentence by a religous
cleric for leaving or changing religions.
Is it your contention that the only wasy to "hold the people down" is to
threaten them with death if they change religion?
Not at all. But I was raised in a particular religion that did not feel
the need to issue a death threat against me when I chose to stop
attending that religion's church services. I never felt "held down."
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Well, death is pretty final. And death is the point I raised, which is
the DIFFERENCE you choose to ignore.
Because it is not relevant to the FACT that Islam, like Christianity and
Catholicism and many other religions is a perfect tool to "hold the people
down". It's merely a red-herring you felt forced to bring up to deflect from
that fact.
It is not a red-herring that fatwas actually exist in the modern world
against people who have chosen to leave Islam, or have somehow
"insulted" Islam or the Prophet Muhammad. What other religion issues
death penalties against believers (or even nonbelivers) for insulting
the religion or its prophets? Can you name one other religion that does
that?
BTW, how many e.g. British people with Muslim backgrounds who no longer
attend the mosque have been killed? Do you have any figures?
Of course not, but that's not the point. Where Sharia law exists, it is
considered a death penalty offense to commit apostasy.
The Bible says it's an offence punsihable by death to stroke your cows
on a tuedsday or something - how many peopel are actually killed
for doing it?
Please name a religion in today's world that issues death sentences for
leaving the religion, or insulting the religion or its prophets. There
is only one. Please name it.
I'd say the threat of death is a perfect tool to hold the people
down -- which makes one religion unique among the religions.
Nope, all religion with a concept of an afterlife says you are
disqualified for forsaking the religion.
But if someone forsakes their religion, they must not care what the
religion believes -- get it? But if they happen to forsake ONE religion
in particular, they might wind up DEAD -- while forsaking other
religions might get you scorn, but you're still alive. It's really not
that difficult to understand -- there is a religion that is unique in
the death sentence department.
Once again, is it your contention that the only wasy to "hold the people
down" is to threaten them with death if they change religion? I think it's
terrible to threaten anyone with death, for anything, just for the record. I
have yet to hear of european ex-muslims getting chopped for giving it up
though. Oh, and once again the Bible threatens us with death for:
Giving your seed to Molech,dishonouring your father/mother,homosexuality,
incest,adultery,bestaility, having a "familiar",swearing in an argument etc.
Please name a religion in the modern world that issues death sentences
for leaving the religion or insulting the religion or its prophets.
There is only one. Please name it.
Compared to that, merely being killed for trying to leave the gang starts to
look positively enlightened...
Really? So today's Islam is starting to look positively enlightened to
you? I think you're made it clear why you defend Islam so
wholeheartedly. You're starting to think Islam looks positively
enlightened.
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Yes, but I gave an important example that is unique to one religion,
while you continue to claim all religions are the same.
Nope, I merely claimed that all religions were equally good at being used to
"hold people down".
But they are not equally good at it. One religion in today's world
issues death threats against people who leave the religion, or insult
the religion, or insult its prophet. Please name one other religion
that does that.
But now you've built that strawman, you might as well
knock it down, I suppose.
Salman Rushdie is not a strawman. He's a living human being whose life
has been threatened for 26 years by a death sentence issued by a
religious cleric. How would you like to be that guy? Would you think my
argument is a strawman if you were that guy? Do you think he has felt
"held down" by the religion he left? He was under guard by Scotland
Yard for many years, because there is a multi-million dollar bounty on
his head, provided by a religious organization. What other religion in
today's world would contemplate doing something like that to make an
"apostate" feel held down? And you hold firm that all religions are
"equally good" at it?
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
15 Jul 2005 02:27:15 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121399197.335041.243010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121308382.553159.271680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tw wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121206396.721527.243170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:<1120836030.820601.247930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
Tugboat Captain wrote:
MonsieurStat wrote / skrev:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists
imperial Western globalization by violent means will be
called a terrorist.
These evildoers will and have become a serious "threat"
to our
personal values and freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've
got
me wondering what horrors Western society committed to
cause
the inception of international Islamic terror in the 7th
century? It HAD to be Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is
the
reason behind Islam's expansion back then, and it is the
reason of its growing expansion today. There is only
one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and corruption
in the world.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL! The religious leaders in Iran have it all!
Not to
mention the rulers of Saudi. "Islam" is to follow blind and
bow
down. A perfect tool to hold the people down.
Correct.
..so no different to any other organised religion then.
Incorrect.
Well, no different to Christianity, Catholicism etc which have all
been
used to "hold the people down"
You are intent on ignoring one MAJOR difference,
..which you threw in AFTER I had made my point.
Yes, I made a point after you made a point. It's called debate, and
you're quite good at it most of the time. After you made your point, I
made my point to demonstrate why I think your point is incorrect.
Acceptd, but I still find it a rather irrelevant point, as the issue under
discussion was the suitability of Religon in general for holding people
down, not the differences between specific religions.
<snip>
Nope, I'm merely making the argument that Islam, like Christianity and
Catholicism and many other religions is a perfect tool to "hold the
people
down"
And you absolutely refuse to acknowledge one MAJOR difference.
It's not relevant to the thesis - "Religion is the perfect tool to hold
people down"
Let's talk about THIS life, the one you do believe in. Give me an
example
in Christianity where a person is handed a death sentence by a
religous
cleric for leaving or changing religions.
Is it your contention that the only wasy to "hold the people down" is to
threaten them with death if they change religion?
Not at all. But I was raised in a particular religion that did not feel
the need to issue a death threat against me when I chose to stop
attending that religion's church services. I never felt "held down."
Do you have any figures for the number of muslims either threatened or
punished with death for not going to the mosque anymore? As I showed you,
the Bible prescribes the eeath penalty for al sorts of things, none of whihc
we could reasonably expect anyone to get killed for these days.
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than
threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Well, death is pretty final. And death is the point I raised, which is
the DIFFERENCE you choose to ignore.
Because it is not relevant to the FACT that Islam, like Christianity and
Catholicism and many other religions is a perfect tool to "hold the
people
down". It's merely a red-herring you felt forced to bring up to deflect
from
that fact.
It is not a red-herring that fatwas actually exist in the modern world
against people who have chosen to leave Islam,
Please give an indication of who has actualy been killed (or threatened) for
leaving Islam. I think Rushdie might have been on the receiving end (from a
mad, fringe cleric) but that's about it. Again, this has no bearing on the
fact that Religion is a powerful tool to "hold the people down".
or have somehow "insulted" Islam or the Prophet Muhammad. What other
religion issues
death penalties against believers (or even nonbelivers) for insulting
the religion or its prophets? Can you name one other religion that does
that?
Catholicism certainly did. But it's irrelevant..
BTW, how many e.g. British people with Muslim backgrounds who no longer
attend the mosque have been killed? Do you have any figures?
Of course not,
Of course!
but that's not the point.
Well, actually it sort of is isn't it? NOt much of a trheat if it never gets
carried out. Christianity wants to hold ME down by threatening me with death
if I give my said to Molech.
Where Sharia law exists, it is considered a death penalty offense to
commit apostasy.
The Bible says it's an offence punsihable by death to stroke your cows
on a tuedsday or something - how many peopel are actually killed
for doing it?
Please name a religion in today's world that issues death sentences for
leaving the religion, or insulting the religion or its prophets. There
is only one. Please name it.
Some extremist branches of Islam presumably. Hey, there is only one religion
in the world which kills African children in the name of "exorcising" them.
Please name it.
All of this is still largely irrelevant to the thesis "Religion is the
perfect tool to hold people down"
I'd say the threat of death is a perfect tool to hold the people
down -- which makes one religion unique among the religions.
Nope, all religion with a concept of an afterlife says you are
disqualified for forsaking the religion.
But if someone forsakes their religion, they must not care what the
religion believes -- get it? But if they happen to forsake ONE
religion
in particular, they might wind up DEAD -- while forsaking other
religions might get you scorn, but you're still alive. It's really not
that difficult to understand -- there is a religion that is unique in
the death sentence department.
Once again, is it your contention that the only wasy to "hold the people
down" is to threaten them with death if they change religion? I think
it's
terrible to threaten anyone with death, for anything, just for the
record. I
have yet to hear of european ex-muslims getting chopped for giving it up
though. Oh, and once again the Bible threatens us with death for:
Giving your seed to Molech,dishonouring your
father/mother,homosexuality,
incest,adultery,bestaility, having a "familiar",swearing in an argument
etc.
Please name a religion in the modern world that issues death sentences
for leaving the religion or insulting the religion or its prophets.
There is only one. Please name it.
Why are you ignoring the raft or trivial offences the Christian bible
demands the death penalty for?
Compared to that, merely being killed for trying to leave the gang
starts to
look positively enlightened...
Really? So today's Islam is starting to look positively enlightened to
you?
Grow a sense of humour, Steve, there's a good chap. The point shoudl be
obvious -lot's of religions threaten the death penalty for lots of things.
Oh, and being killed for insulting the Head Pixie DOES seem slightly more
reasonable than being killed for giving your seed to the wrong person or
swearing. Given that none of it is reasonable in the first place.
I think you're made it clear why you defend Islam so
wholeheartedly. You're starting to think Islam looks positively
enlightened.
Are you Tony in disguise?
Of course, there are more ways to "hold the people down" than
threaten
them death if they leave the religion.
Yes, but I gave an important example that is unique to one religion,
while you continue to claim all religions are the same.
Nope, I merely claimed that all religions were equally good at being
used to
"hold people down".
But they are not equally good at it.
What leads yo to that qualititave judgement? The data you require are:
1) The number of Muslims in the world
2) The subset of those mulsims who can be proven to be "held down" by their
religion
3) The number who wish to escape that religion, but are discouraged by the
possibility of death
THEN you might be able to make such a judgement, providing you do the above
again with Christians, Catholics etc , replace fear of fatwah with fear of
damnation, express as a percentage etc etc.
So, orf you go then, old bean.
One religion in today's world
issues death threats against people who leave the religion, or insult
the religion, or insult its prophet. Please name one other religion
that does that.
Name another religon that wants to kill me for "giving my seed to Molech"!
But now you've built that strawman, you might as well
knock it down, I suppose.
Salman Rushdie is not a strawman. He's a living human being whose life
has been threatened for 26 years by a death sentence issued by a
religious cleric.
*A* religions cleric, and a fairly looney one at that. Would you liek me to
charaterise Christainity through the words and actions ofteh Rev Ian
Paisley?
How would you like to be that guy? Would you think my
argument is a strawman if you were that guy? Do you think he has felt
"held down" by the religion he left?
Wack, wack WACK that strawman..
He was under guard by Scotland Yard for many years, because there is a
multi-million dollar bounty on
his head, provided by a religious organization.
Not by a religion, though...
What other religion in today's world would contemplate doing something
like that to make an
"apostate" feel held down?
At least he is free to give his seed to Molech..
And you hold firm that all religions are "equally good" at it?
Absolutely. The methods may vary, however (not much though).
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
15 Jul 2005 04:05:57 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:27:15 +0200, "tw" <no@no.com> wrote:
It's not relevant to the thesis - "Religion is the perfect tool to hold
people down"
Tom, religion does not hold me down or turn me into some zealot.
I would never preach to anyone about their faith (or lack thereof)
If someone is an atheist? That's their business I say.
Speaking of zealots.. Some evil ***** that my mother used to work
with told her that my Nana didn't go to Heaven because she was not
a born-again Christian. Absolute insanity. My Nana was a devout
Catholic who, to my knowledge, never did anything wrong!
She was an awesome person.. always doing for others before
herself.. putting 110% into her family etc..
Some religious people like that guy who said my *Catholic* Nana (who
never missed Mass) won't go to Heaven are absolutely insane.
I was raised Catholic. But later on in life I chose to have a
personal relationship with God. I am far too literal; seeing
that I was told my whole life: "God is all around you, God
is all around you" - so, I figured if he's all around me, I can pray
to him in private.
Another thing I was taught at the Catholic church is that God has
unconditional love for us; so, if he can see/hear me at all times,
and he has unconditional love for me - what's the sense of going to
church? If I'm a good person he will see that; when I pray he will
hear it.
I do go to church on Easter and Christmas to receive the holy
communion, though.
Dani
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
15 Jul 2005 05:50:37 AM |
|
|
"Dani" <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:crted1pm4qitpn3tcdrb98h1vsjsvvf3r1@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:27:15 +0200, "tw" <no@no.com> wrote:
It's not relevant to the thesis - "Religion is the perfect tool to hold
people down"
Tom, religion does not hold me down or turn me into some zealot.
I didn't for a second think it did. Same goes for Steven. Religion is also a
"perfect tool" for improving people's lives, inspiring them to great works
etc etc.
I would never preach to anyone about their faith (or lack thereof)
If someone is an atheist? That's their business I say.
Speaking of zealots.. Some evil ***** that my mother used to work
with told her that my Nana didn't go to Heaven because she was not
a born-again Christian. Absolute insanity. My Nana was a devout
Catholic who, to my knowledge, never did anything wrong!
She was an awesome person.. always doing for others before
herself.. putting 110% into her family etc..
Some religious people like that guy who said my *Catholic* Nana (who
never missed Mass) won't go to Heaven are absolutely insane.
I was raised Catholic. But later on in life I chose to have a
personal relationship with God. I am far too literal; seeing
that I was told my whole life: "God is all around you, God
is all around you" - so, I figured if he's all around me, I can pray
to him in private.
Another thing I was taught at the Catholic church is that God has
unconditional love for us; so, if he can see/hear me at all times,
and he has unconditional love for me - what's the sense of going to
church? If I'm a good person he will see that; when I pray he will
hear it.
I do go to church on Easter and Christmas to receive the holy
communion, though.
Dani
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
16 Jul 2005 12:32:23 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:50:37 +0200, "tw" <no@no.com> wrote:
"Dani" <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:crted1pm4qitpn3tcdrb98h1vsjsvvf3r1@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:27:15 +0200, "tw" <no@no.com> wrote:
It's not relevant to the thesis - "Religion is the perfect tool to hold
people down"
Tom, religion does not hold me down or turn me into some zealot.
I didn't for a second think it did. Same goes for Steven. Religion is also a
"perfect tool" for improving people's lives, inspiring them to great works
etc etc.
I fully agree, Tom. Put it this way: even if God doesn't exist, what
is the damage of living a life as if he did? What is wrong with being
"kind to thy neighbor" - "love thy neighbor" - "do not steal" - "do
not lie" .. Those are all good morals that, if followed, will lead to
a much more peaceful world.
So even if he doesn't exist - the morals ingrained in us are all
positive.
I personally believe he does exist, though. I have two remarkable
stories that have strongly led me to believe he exists. I won't get
into the experiences I had just now - maybe someday.
Dani
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 10:16:57 AM |
|
|
MonsieurStat wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists imperial Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist. These
evildoers
will and have become a serious "threat" to our personal values and
freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the reason behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its growing expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and corrpution
in the world.
Look at some of the repressive societies Islam has fostered during its
centuries of existence -- some are prime examples of injustice and
corruption.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 10:42:58 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120835817.050275.309720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists imperial
Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist. These
evildoers
will and have become a serious "threat" to our personal values and
freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the
inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the reason
behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its growing
expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and
corrpution
in the world.
Look at some of the repressive societies Islam has fostered during its
centuries of existence -- some are prime examples of injustice and
corruption.
Look at some of the repressive societies the United States has fostered
world wide over the last 130 years.
Look at some of the repressive Islamic societies the United States has
fostered over the last 90 years.
We need a bigoted fear to keep the gears of Western hegemony grinding,
Steven. I know we'll see you hard at.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 11:05:16 AM |
|
|
John F Lemke wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120835817.050275.309720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists imperial
Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist. These
evildoers
will and have become a serious "threat" to our personal values and
freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the
inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the reason
behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its growing
expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and
corrpution
in the world.
Look at some of the repressive societies Islam has fostered during its
centuries of existence -- some are prime examples of injustice and
corruption.
Look at some of the repressive societies the United States has fostered
world wide over the last 130 years.
Those repressive societies already existed -- it would have been
impossible to rid the world of all repressive socities overnight. So in
some cases, we had to learn to deal with them. But still, look at some
of the repressive societies the United States and Western allies have
fought to *end* -- why do you only focus on the negative? I have never
claimed we are perfect, but in this world, I believe Western societies
are superior to some other alternatives.
Look at some of the repressive Islamic societies the United States has
fostered over the last 90 years.
Do you believe it is our fault that those societies exist? We had to
learn to deal with them -- the hope being that they would move into the
modern world one day.
We need a bigoted fear to keep the gears of Western hegemony grinding,
Steven. I know we'll see you hard at.
What fear would that be? Pointing out the obvious truth is fear? Oh,
that's right, you're using a favored tactic of the left. Anyone who
points out the truth about something has a "phobia" of some sort. I
have no phobias. I have no fear, other than the fear that people like
you will do everything possible to shift blame away from the terrorists
for their atrocities. They need to be defeated.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 11:44:50 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120838715.942838.49250@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120835817.050275.309720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists imperial
Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist. These
evildoers
will and have become a serious "threat" to our personal values
and
freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the
inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the reason
behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its growing
expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and
corrpution
in the world.
Look at some of the repressive societies Islam has fostered during its
centuries of existence -- some are prime examples of injustice and
corruption.
Look at some of the repressive societies the United States has fostered
world wide over the last 130 years.
Those repressive societies already existed -- it would have been
impossible to rid the world of all repressive socities overnight.
Weak and total BS. The getaway driver gets prosecuted for murder if a
murder is committed during the course of a robbery.
I won't waste time chasing you around in your circles, Steven.
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 08:12:05 PM |
|
|
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:RPCdnQsH3IVsMFPfRVn-pQ@locallink.net...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120838715.942838.49250@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120835817.050275.309720@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120801181.979877.113090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John F Lemke wrote:
The reality of the situation is that anyone that resists
imperial
Western
globalization by violent means will be called a terrorist.
These
evildoers
will and have become a serious "threat" to our personal values
and
freedoms.
They first became a threat in the 7th century. Now you've got me
wondering what horrors Western society committed to cause the
inception
of international Islamic terror in the 7th century? It HAD to be
Western society's fault, right?
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption. This is the
reason
behind
Islam's expansion back then, and it is the reason of its growing
expansion
today. There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and
corrpution
in the world.
Look at some of the repressive societies Islam has fostered during
its
centuries of existence -- some are prime examples of injustice and
corruption.
Look at some of the repressive societies the United States has fostered
world wide over the last 130 years.
Those repressive societies already existed -- it would have been
impossible to rid the world of all repressive socities overnight.
Weak and total BS. The getaway driver gets prosecuted for murder if a
murder is committed during the course of a robbery.
I won't waste time chasing you around in your circles, Steven.
Sound decision. Like all ideologically bankrupt fascists, apologists, and
other dishonest racists of this world, Steven has to spin and spin and spin.
Personally I sometimes get dizzy just watching him spin.
Stat.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
09 Jul 2005 11:11:49 AM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:EvFze.9200$is5.928847@news20.bellglobal.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:RPCdnQsH3IVsMFPfRVn-pQ@locallink.net...
I won't waste time chasing you around in your circles, Steven.
Sound decision. Like all ideologically bankrupt fascists, apologists, and
other dishonest racists of this world, Steven has to spin and spin and
spin.
Personally I sometimes get dizzy just watching him spin.
Stat.
No doubt. Steven is very practiced, very polished. He's certainly not
stupid. Gentlemanly and courteous pretty much always.
I'm certain he knows enough history to understand that the Muslim world has
many reasons to be unhappy with the West. That makes the use of the "empire
building Islamic extremists" card a little intriguing.
It's the propaganda of the future. Islam has to remain a threat. We can't
admit our own imperial sins of the past because we need to expand our
imperial aims into the future.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "The CO" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 07:31:12 PM |
|
|
MonsieurStat wrote:
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption.
Mmmm, I see what you mean but I can't agree. What it *claims* to be
is a path leading to an afterlife of paradise in return for a life of
hardship and deprivation on Earth. Given the environment of its birth,
it's no real surprise a lot of people in the 7th Century went for it.
Given that life in that part of the world is no picnic now, some people
perceive their only chance for happiness is after they are dead.
This is the reason behind Islam's expansion back then,
Mmm, actually, no. The reason behind its expansion then was Mohammeds
desire for Islam to be spread over the world and he was quite happy to
do that at swordpoint. (And did) He sold his religion (using the
promise of paradise as a carrot) to the donkeys and they fell for it.
Islamists go on about the 'Crusaders' but the 1st Crusade was really
the Islamic Jihad that conquered much of the then known world.
Were it not for the Battle of Tours we might all be Muslims.
and it is the reason of its growing expansion today.
Somewhat agree, the militants are pushing it because they perceive
anything not Islamic should be destroyed. So much for tolerance and
'no compulsion in religion'. And yes, the easily led are seeing it as
a means to escape their unpleasant lives and live forever in an Arabian
Nights paradise....
There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and corrpution
in the world.
Depends on the Islamists perception of 'injustice and corruption'
Apparently to them that means anything except Sharia.
However, for the general rank and file, I somewaht agree, if there is
peace and prosperity for all in the ME then the Islamist recruiters for
the suicide corps would have difficulty selling their wares. One
problem I see is that the Madrassahs of Pakistan (and Afghanistan
previoiusly) produced 'brainwashed' Islamic fanatics that are completely
ignorant of anything non Islamic and consider any place not under Islam
must be placed under it by any means available, including Jihad.
I know of no Christian (or indeed any other religions) equivalent to the
Madrassah, even Christian religious orders do not neglect secular
studies. My children attend a Catholic school, but neither I nor they
are Catholic. They go to the school because it gives a better level
of education, with more control over the behaviour of students than the
state school. They are of course taught religion as well, and the ethos
is of course Catholic, but they are not compelled to participate in the
religious activities beyond the occasional whole school mass in school time.
I'd also suggest that Islam is not an 'antidote' to injustice or
anything else for that matter.
Unfortunately some Islamists and their converts *perceive* it as an
antidote, when it really just imposes it's own form of injustice in
place of whatever system was there.
One of Islam's biggest injustices is its treatment of females, 'a womans
word is worth one third of that of a man' and similar nonsense.
It also has a mania for the punishment of 'crimes' that are no religion
(nor governments) business but are simply interpersonal relationships
between people. I am speaking of course of the treatement of adultery
and any other extramarital sex amongst other things whilst condoning
homosexuality. This is not criminal behaviour and should not become it
because some self styled prophet who hated women said so. Even for
things that I do consider criminal, I have no interest in the barbaric
punishments imposed under Islamic law. Cutting pieces off people is
just? I have no real problem with a death penalty for very serious
crimes, but a premature death is the punishment, not the manner of it.
I still recall a Saudi woman who was sealed in a bag and publicly stoned
to death for adultery. IIRC, her male partner was merely whipped. The
only crimes here were the treatment they received.
Barbarians. Nothing more.
Suffice it to say that I would violently oppose any attempt to impose
that filth on my country and I'd nuke the Middle East to do it if that's
what it would take, or 'die in the last ditch' if it came to that.
I've no problem with Muslims practising their own religion in any form
they wish, provided they do not impose it (or it's laws and punishments)
on those not of their faith, but the Islamists take the view that living
in a nation where Islamic law is not imposed is a form of oppression of
Islam.
I've no idea of the logic behind that, but it doesn't work for me.
If they don't like living in our country under our laws that *require*
tolerance of the religious beliefs and practices of others, then they
can bloody well swim over to Indonesia or Malaysia or back to bloody
Arabia but it's not going to happen here.
--
The CO
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
09 Jul 2005 08:13:19 AM |
|
|
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
MonsieurStat wrote:
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption.
Mmmm, I see what you mean but I can't agree. What it *claims* to be
is a path leading to an afterlife of paradise in return for a life of
hardship and deprivation on Earth. Given the environment of its birth,
it's no real surprise a lot of people in the 7th Century went for it.
Given that life in that part of the world is no picnic now, some people
perceive their only chance for happiness is after they are dead.
This is the reason behind Islam's expansion back then,
Mmm, actually, no. The reason behind its expansion then was Mohammeds
desire for Islam to be spread over the world and he was quite happy to do
that at swordpoint. (And did) He sold his religion (using the promise of
paradise as a carrot) to the donkeys and they fell for it.
Islamists go on about the 'Crusaders' but the 1st Crusade was really
the Islamic Jihad that conquered much of the then known world.
Were it not for the Battle of Tours we might all be Muslims.
and it is the reason of its growing expansion today.
Somewhat agree, the militants are pushing it because they perceive
anything not Islamic should be destroyed. So much for tolerance and
'no compulsion in religion'. And yes, the easily led are seeing it as
a means to escape their unpleasant lives and live forever in an Arabian
Nights paradise....
There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and corrpution in
the world.
Depends on the Islamists perception of 'injustice and corruption'
Apparently to them that means anything except Sharia.
However, for the general rank and file, I somewaht agree, if there is
peace and prosperity for all in the ME then the Islamist recruiters for
the suicide corps would have difficulty selling their wares. One problem
I see is that the Madrassahs of Pakistan (and Afghanistan previoiusly)
produced 'brainwashed' Islamic fanatics that are completely
ignorant of anything non Islamic and consider any place not under Islam
must be placed under it by any means available, including Jihad.
I know of no Christian (or indeed any other religions) equivalent to the
Madrassah, even Christian religious orders do not neglect secular studies.
My children attend a Catholic school, but neither I nor they are Catholic.
They go to the school because it gives a better level
of education, with more control over the behaviour of students than the
state school. They are of course taught religion as well, and the ethos
is of course Catholic, but they are not compelled to participate in the
religious activities beyond the occasional whole school mass in school
time.
I'd also suggest that Islam is not an 'antidote' to injustice or anything
else for that matter.
Unfortunately some Islamists and their converts *perceive* it as an
antidote, when it really just imposes it's own form of injustice in place
of whatever system was there.
One of Islam's biggest injustices is its treatment of females, 'a womans
word is worth one third of that of a man' and similar nonsense.
It also has a mania for the punishment of 'crimes' that are no religion
(nor governments) business but are simply interpersonal relationships
between people. I am speaking of course of the treatement of adultery and
any other extramarital sex amongst other things whilst condoning
homosexuality. This is not criminal behaviour and should not become it
because some self styled prophet who hated women said so. Even for things
that I do consider criminal, I have no interest in the barbaric
punishments imposed under Islamic law. Cutting pieces off people is just?
I have no real problem with a death penalty for very serious crimes, but a
premature death is the punishment, not the manner of it. I still recall a
Saudi woman who was sealed in a bag and publicly stoned to death for
adultery. IIRC, her male partner was merely whipped. The only crimes
here were the treatment they received.
Barbarians. Nothing more.
Suffice it to say that I would violently oppose any attempt to impose
that filth on my country and I'd nuke the Middle East to do it if that's
what it would take, or 'die in the last ditch' if it came to that.
I've no problem with Muslims practising their own religion in any form
they wish, provided they do not impose it (or it's laws and punishments)
on those not of their faith, but the Islamists take the view that living
in a nation where Islamic law is not imposed is a form of oppression of
Islam.
I've no idea of the logic behind that, but it doesn't work for me.
If they don't like living in our country under our laws that *require*
tolerance of the religious beliefs and practices of others, then they can
bloody well swim over to Indonesia or Malaysia or back to bloody
Arabia but it's not going to happen here.
Very, very well put. I enjoyed your synopsis! BTW, Stat is at least
partially in troll mode in his reply...he knows exactly how I feel about
sharia in Ontario...as does anyone who follows this group. I don't think
sharia makes anyplace better, for obvious reasons (the main one being that I
am female).
Also, if Canada is "embracing" Islam, it is only in his dreams! We are a
civilized country and don't deny anyone the right to practice their
religion/ culture.
Jane
--
The CO
.
|
|
|
| User: "The CO" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
09 Jul 2005 09:35:03 PM |
|
|
Jane wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
Very, very well put. I enjoyed your synopsis!
Thank you.
BTW, Stat is at least partially in troll mode in his reply...
Yes, I know. We will likely never agree on many things and he likes
to stir people up somewhat. I can live with that.
he knows exactly how I feel about
sharia in Ontario...as does anyone who follows this group. I don't think
sharia makes anyplace better, for obvious reasons (the main one being that I
am female).
Well, that's certainly a good reason. The 'females are third class
people' concept is one of Islams biggest problems. Perversely, it's
also one the things that attracts Middle Eastern males to it, the
concept of being in total control over not just their wife/wives, but
effectively, all women in their families.
I will not permit the infliction of such barbarism on my daughters.
Also, if Canada is "embracing" Islam, it is only in his dreams! We are a
civilized country and don't deny anyone the right to practice their
religion/ culture.
That was my understanding also.
--
The CO
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 08:38:36 PM |
|
|
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
MonsieurStat wrote:
Islam is an antidote to injustice and corruption.
Mmmm, I see what you mean but I can't agree. What it *claims* to be
is a path leading to an afterlife of paradise in return for a life of
hardship and deprivation on Earth. Given the environment of its birth,
it's no real surprise a lot of people in the 7th Century went for it.
Given that life in that part of the world is no picnic now, some people
perceive their only chance for happiness is after they are dead.
Not really. Even the craziest among them do not say that their main reason
for engaging in acts of terrorism is to go to heaven. The belief of going to
heaven is always secondary and seen as a bonus. And not all of them believe
it at all. For instance, I don't think Mohammad Atta got into that plane
that hit the WTC thinking about the 70 virgins waiting on the other side.
This is the reason behind Islam's expansion back then,
Mmm, actually, no. The reason behind its expansion then was Mohammeds
desire for Islam to be spread over the world and he was quite happy to do
that at swordpoint. (And did) He sold his religion (using the promise of
paradise as a carrot) to the donkeys and they fell for it.
Islamists go on about the 'Crusaders' but the 1st Crusade was really
the Islamic Jihad that conquered much of the then known world.
Were it not for the Battle of Tours we might all be Muslims.
Which would have been a wonderfu thing of course ;-)
and it is the reason of its growing expansion today.
Somewhat agree, the militants are pushing it because they perceive
anything not Islamic should be destroyed. So much for tolerance and
'no compulsion in religion'. And yes, the easily led are seeing it as
a means to escape their unpleasant lives and live forever in an Arabian
Nights paradise....
LOL
Stop watching too much TV CO.
There is only one way to fight Islam: Reduce injustice and corrpution in
the world.
Depends on the Islamists perception of 'injustice and corruption'
Apparently to them that means anything except Sharia.
Sharia law, when implemented and practiced correctly is almost bullet proof
against corruption and injustice (just ask Jane about Sharia law in Ontario,
Canada. She will surely agree that Ontario is a much better place now than
it was before Sharia, even if she is not exactly a supporter of Islam).
However, we have to separate Islam as a social and personal ideology from a
tool in the hands of a few corrupt people who believe neither in heaven nor
hell, or even Islam itself.
However, for the general rank and file, I somewaht agree, if there is
peace and prosperity for all in the ME then the Islamist recruiters for
the suicide corps would have difficulty selling their wares. One problem
I see is that the Madrassahs of Pakistan (and Afghanistan previoiusly)
produced 'brainwashed' Islamic fanatics that are completely
ignorant of anything non Islamic and consider any place not under Islam
must be placed under it by any means available, including Jihad.
I know of no Christian (or indeed any other religions) equivalent to the
Madrassah, even Christian religious orders do not neglect secular studies.
My children attend a Catholic school, but neither I nor they are Catholic.
They go to the school because it gives a better level
of education, with more control over the behaviour of students than the
state school. They are of course taught religion as well, and the ethos
is of course Catholic, but they are not compelled to participate in the
religious activities beyond the occasional whole school mass in school
time.
The Madrassehs were an invention of Americans in that part of the world to
prepare an army of drones to fight communism. As it happened, the drones got
out of control and have turned against their creators. Even there, we have
to admit there is some kind of cosmic justice.
BTW CO, you should consider putting your kids through an Islamic school for
a couple of years. It will provide them with a broader perspective on life
and religion. They will thank you when they grow up, and who knows perhaps
by the time they grow up your country will have evolved into a wonderful
Islamic state (Allah willing of course).
I'd also suggest that Islam is not an 'antidote' to injustice or anything
else for that matter.
Unfortunately some Islamists and their converts *perceive* it as an
antidote, when it really just imposes it's own form of injustice in place
of whatever system was there.
One of Islam's biggest injustices is its treatment of females, 'a womans
word is worth one third of that of a man' and similar nonsense.
It also has a mania for the punishment of 'crimes' that are no religion
(nor governments) business but are simply interpersonal relationships
between people. I am speaking of course of the treatement of adultery and
any other extramarital sex amongst other things whilst condoning
homosexuality. This is not criminal behaviour and should not become it
because some self styled prophet who hated women said so. Even for things
that I do consider criminal, I have no interest in the barbaric
punishments imposed under Islamic law. Cutting pieces off people is just?
I have no real problem with a death penalty for very serious crimes, but a
premature death is the punishment, not the manner of it. I still recall a
Saudi woman who was sealed in a bag and publicly stoned to death for
adultery. IIRC, her male partner was merely whipped. The only crimes
here were the treatment they received.
Barbarians. Nothing more.
Suffice it to say that I would violently oppose any attempt to impose
that filth on my country and I'd nuke the Middle East to do it if that's
what it would take, or 'die in the last ditch' if it came to that.
You have to realize that Islam is not something that will come to you from
out there. It's just a question of evolution. Sooner or later, your nation
will embrace Islam as it is happening in Canada today. Nuking Middle East
will actually accelerate the process as the injustice and corruption in that
act will be too overwhelming even for a nation located almost outside of the
Earth.
I've no problem with Muslims practising their own religion in any form
they wish, provided they do not impose it (or it's laws and punishments)
on those not of their faith, but the Islamists take the view that living
in a nation where Islamic law is not imposed is a form of oppression of
Islam.
It's not surprising and it doesn't really have to do with Islam, but lack of
Islam. If you don't have enough Islam in a society, surely it must be
oppressive.
I've no idea of the logic behind that, but it doesn't work for me.
If they don't like living in our country under our laws that *require*
tolerance of the religious beliefs and practices of others, then they can
bloody well swim over to Indonesia or Malaysia or back to bloody
Arabia but it's not going to happen here.
Is there any water routes between Australia and Arabia?
Stat.
--
The CO
.
|
|
|
| User: "The CO" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
08 Jul 2005 11:13:39 PM |
|
|
MonsieurStat wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
Not really. Even the craziest among them do not say that their main reason
for engaging in acts of terrorism is to go to heaven. The belief of going to
heaven is always secondary and seen as a bonus. And not all of them believe
it at all. For instance, I don't think Mohammad Atta got into that plane
that hit the WTC thinking about the 70 virgins waiting on the other side.
I don't presume to know the mind of a murdering nutcase.
Mmm, actually, no. The reason behind its expansion then was Mohammeds
desire for Islam to be spread over the world and he was quite happy to do
that at swordpoint. (And did) He sold his religion (using the promise of
paradise as a carrot) to the donkeys and they fell for it.
Islamists go on about the 'Crusaders' but the 1st Crusade was really
the Islamic Jihad that conquered much of the then known world.
Were it not for the Battle of Tours we might all be Muslims.
Which would have been a wonderfu thing of course ;-)
Only if you are a Muslim and like the way they run things.
Somewhat agree, the militants are pushing it because they perceive
anything not Islamic should be destroyed. So much for tolerance and
'no compulsion in religion'. And yes, the easily led are seeing it as
a means to escape their unpleasant lives and live forever in an Arabian
Nights paradise....
LOL
Stop watching too much TV CO.
?? Actually I watch very little TV. I have a life and work.
Depends on the Islamists perception of 'injustice and corruption'
Apparently to them that means anything except Sharia.
Sharia law, when implemented and practiced correctly is almost bullet proof
against corruption and injustice
We seem to have a fundamental disagreement about Sharia being 'just'.
(just ask Jane about Sharia law in Ontario,
Canada. She will surely agree that Ontario is a much better place now than
it was before Sharia, even if she is not exactly a supporter of Islam).
Since Islamic law is not imposed on non muslims in Ontario I fail to see
the relevance. If Muslims are silly enough to impose it on themselves
then that's one thing, if they want to impose it on non Muslims that's
entirely another.
However, we have to separate Islam as a social and personal ideology from a
tool in the hands of a few corrupt people who believe neither in heaven nor
hell, or even Islam itself.
You don't have to be corrupt to not believe in Heaven, Hell, God or
Islam. I don't and I'm most certainly not corrupt in any real sense.
Religionists probably consider unbelievers corrupt simply because of non
belief, but I consider that nonsensical. You can be moral and upright
and atheist/humanist, they are not mutually exclusive.
However, for the general rank and file, I somewaht agree, if there is
peace and prosperity for all in the ME then the Islamist recruiters for
the suicide corps would have difficulty selling their wares. One problem
I see is that the Madrassahs of Pakistan (and Afghanistan previoiusly)
produced 'brainwashed' Islamic fanatics that are completely
ignorant of anything non Islamic and consider any place not under Islam
must be placed under it by any means available, including Jihad.
I know of no Christian (or indeed any other religions) equivalent to the
Madrassah, even Christian religious orders do not neglect secular studies.
My children attend a Catholic school, but neither I nor they are Catholic.
They go to the school because it gives a better level
of education, with more control over the behaviour of students than the
state school. They are of course taught religion as well, and the ethos
is of course Catholic, but they are not compelled to participate in the
religious activities beyond the occasional whole school mass in school
time.
The Madrassehs were an invention of Americans in that part of the world to
prepare an army of drones to fight communism.
Eh? AFAIK, they are funded and controlled by Saudi oil dollars and they
predate the communist push in Afghanistan by some decades.
As it happened, the drones got
out of control and have turned against their creators. Even there, we have
to admit there is some kind of cosmic justice.
That, if true, is interesting but doesn't make them any less undesirable.
BTW CO, you should consider putting your kids through an Islamic school for
a couple of years. It will provide them with a broader perspective on life
and religion.
No, it will force my girls to wear silly head dresses and consider
themselves inferiour creatures and subservient to all males. Not my
children.
They will thank you when they grow up,
Not bloody likely. They'd be far more likely to leave home in disgust. :^)
and who knows perhaps by the time they grow up your country will have evolved into a wonderful
Islamic state (Allah willing of course).
Over my dead body. And that of several million Australians and would be
Jihadis......:^)
I'd also suggest that Islam is not an 'antidote' to injustice or anything
else for that matter.
Unfortunately some Islamists and their converts *perceive* it as an
antidote, when it really just imposes it's own form of injustice in place
of whatever system was there.
One of Islam's biggest injustices is its treatment of females, 'a womans
word is worth one third of that of a man' and similar nonsense.
It also has a mania for the punishment of 'crimes' that are no religion
(nor governments) business but are simply interpersonal relationships
between people. I am speaking of course of the treatement of adultery and
any other extramarital sex amongst other things whilst condoning
homosexuality. This is not criminal behaviour and should not become it
because some self styled prophet who hated women said so. Even for things
that I do consider criminal, I have no interest in the barbaric
punishments imposed under Islamic law. Cutting pieces off people is just?
I have no real problem with a death penalty for very serious crimes, but a
premature death is the punishment, not the manner of it. I still recall a
Saudi woman who was sealed in a bag and publicly stoned to death for
adultery. IIRC, her male partner was merely whipped. The only crimes
here were the treatment they received.
Barbarians. Nothing more.
Suffice it to say that I would violently oppose any attempt to impose
that filth on my country and I'd nuke the Middle East to do it if that's
what it would take, or 'die in the last ditch' if it came to that.
You have to realize that Islam is not something that will come to you from
out there. It's just a question of evolution.
No, it's a question of belief in superstitious nonsense v the evidence
of science and technololy. Islam is not an evolution, but a cessation
of all progress that is not Quran inspired. If something you see or do
contradicts the Quran it must be destroyed or ignored. That bears no
resemblance to evolution, it is the antiethis of evolutionary change.
Sooner or later, your nation will embrace Islam as it is happening in Canada today.
You don't know Australia or Australians mate. Sorry, never going to
happen. ;^)
Nuking Middle East will actually accelerate the process as the
injustice and corruption in that
act will be too overwhelming even for a nation located almost outside of the Earth.
We actually lack the means to do it. But nothing short of an invasion
will impose Sharia here and that would mean most of us would need to be
dead first.
I've no problem with Muslims practising their own religion in any form
they wish, provided they do not impose it (or it's laws and punishments)
on those not of their faith, but the Islamists take the view that living
in a nation where Islamic law is not imposed is a form of oppression of
Islam.
It's not surprising and it doesn't really have to do with Islam, but lack of
Islam. If you don't have enough Islam in a society, surely it must be
oppressive.
Only according to Islam, which considers oppression undesirable, unless
it's *their* kind of oppression, ie the imposition of Islamic Law, which
is the personification of oppression.
I've no idea of the logic behind that, but it doesn't work for me.
If they don't like living in our country under our laws that *require*
tolerance of the religious beliefs and practices of others, then they can
bloody well swim over to Indonesia or Malaysia or back to bloody
Arabia but it's not going to happen here.
Is there any water routes between Australia and Arabia?
LOL. Mate, to go from Australia to *anywhere* there are *nothing but*
water routes. Either that or fly. (Frankly, I sometimes envy the
ability of people in Europe or North America to be able to *drive* to
another country, however it does make our border much less permeable for
large numbers, which the US seems to be having a lot of trouble with in
the south...
--
The CO
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
09 Jul 2005 09:09:16 AM |
|
|
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf4ee1$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
snip...
You don't have to be corrupt to not believe in Heaven, Hell, God or Islam.
I don't and I'm most certainly not corrupt in any real sense.
Depends on your definition of corrupt. If you limit the meaning to taking
bribes and such, then you have a purely material definition of the word. The
larger sense of corruption is immorality and perversion. Islam considers all
destructive thoughts, words and actions, as immoral or perversions. You, I
and many others certainly pollute the earth unnecessarily and excessively.
This is destructive action (to both the earth and humanity) which qualifies
us as corrupt individuals.
The Madrassehs were an invention of Americans in that part of the world
to prepare an army of drones to fight communism.
Eh? AFAIK, they are funded and controlled by Saudi oil dollars and they
predate the communist push in Afghanistan by some decades.
As early as the 1950's United States' think tanks believed that Islam is the
most effective force capable of resisting the spread of communism in the
Middle East. The Madrassehs were one of the many experiments conducted in
controlling and mastering this force.
You have to realize that Islam is not something that will come to you
from out there. It's just a question of evolution.
No, it's a question of belief in superstitious nonsense v the evidence of
science and technololy. Islam is not an evolution, but a cessation of all
progress that is not Quran inspired. If something you see or do
contradicts the Quran it must be destroyed or ignored. That bears no
resemblance to evolution, it is the antiethis of evolutionary change.
You seem to forget that Islam is directly (and indirectly) responsible for
most of the foundations of all science and technology in the world today.
During the Islamic era of 7th to 12th century, huge progresses were made in
all fields of science going from algebra, geometry, astrology, medicine, to
logic, philosophy, literature, poetry and many other fields. It was also
during the same era that the ancient writings were rediscovered, translated
and revived. At the time Europe was so backward that it took it several
centuries to catch up to the Islamic world of the 11th century. Still today,
many extremely sophisticated and refined monuments of that era remain. Some
of which the science and technology of today cannot still explain the
workings of.
Keep a close eye on the new Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He has
promised to turn Iran into a model Islamic state, where people's joy and
happiness through both material and spiritual progress is in the forefront.
Where human happiness is the main objective of applying Islamic ideology to
all layers of society staring by the individuals all the way to the
government. Where government's role in society is a facilitator and catalyst
to people's progress by empowering them to take control of their own
destinies and lives. Ahmadinejad can make these promises because Islam is
not contradictory to the values that are absolutely fundamental to human
happiness. Values such as justice, self determination, responsibility.
I hope Ahmadinejad makes good on his promises. Even if he doesn't, I am
becoming more and more convinced that Islam will again act as a catalyst to
human progress, as it did during the first Islamic era. A New Age of
spirituality, humanity, peace, harmony, and justice is *inshAllah* awaiting
us.
Stat.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
09 Jul 2005 03:27:15 PM |
|
|
MonsieurStat wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf4ee1$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
snip...
You don't have to be corrupt to not believe in Heaven, Hell, God or Islam.
I don't and I'm most certainly not corrupt in any real sense.
Depends on your definition of corrupt. If you limit the meaning to taking
bribes and such, then you have a purely material definition of the word. The
larger sense of corruption is immorality and perversion. Islam considers all
destructive thoughts, words and actions, as immoral or perversions. You, I
and many others certainly pollute the earth unnecessarily and excessively.
This is destructive action (to both the earth and humanity) which qualifies
us as corrupt individuals.
The Madrassehs were an invention of Americans in that part of the world
to prepare an army of drones to fight communism.
Eh? AFAIK, they are funded and controlled by Saudi oil dollars and they
predate the communist push in Afghanistan by some decades.
As early as the 1950's United States' think tanks believed that Islam is the
most effective force capable of resisting the spread of communism in the
Middle East. The Madrassehs were one of the many experiments conducted in
controlling and mastering this force.
You have to realize that Islam is not something that will come to you
from out there. It's just a question of evolution.
No, it's a question of belief in superstitious nonsense v the evidence of
science and technololy. Islam is not an evolution, but a cessation of all
progress that is not Quran inspired. If something you see or do
contradicts the Quran it must be destroyed or ignored. That bears no
resemblance to evolution, it is the antiethis of evolutionary change.
You seem to forget that Islam is directly (and indirectly) responsible for
most of the foundations of all science and technology in the world today.
During the Islamic era of 7th to 12th century, huge progresses were made in
all fields of science going from algebra, geometry, astrology, medicine, to
logic, philosophy, literature, poetry and many other fields. It was also
during the same era that the ancient writings were rediscovered, translated
and revived. At the time Europe was so backward that it took it several
centuries to catch up to the Islamic world of the 11th century. Still today,
many extremely sophisticated and refined monuments of that era remain. Some
of which the science and technology of today cannot still explain the
workings of.
And then fundamentalism happened, and they went into their own Dark
Ages, still awaiting their Renaissance period while trying to drag the
rest of the world into their Dark Age.
At least, that's what the view looks like from where I am...
Woods
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Silent night. |
09 Jul 2005 11:02:57 PM |
|
|
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:DqWze.18284$e%5.9274@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf4ee1$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
MonsieurStat wrote:
"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42cf1ac0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
snip...
You don't have to be corrupt to not believe in Heaven, Hell, God or
Islam. I don't and I'm most certainly not corrupt in any real sense.
Depends on your definition of corrupt. If you limit the meaning to taking
bribes and such, then you have a purely material definition of the word.
The larger sense of corruption is immorality and perversion. Islam
considers all destructive thoughts, words and actions, as immoral or
perversions. You, I and many others certainly pollute the earth
unnecessarily and excessively. This is destructive action (to both the
earth and humanity) which qualifies us as corrupt individuals.
The Madrassehs were an invention of Americans in that part of the world
to prepare an army of drones to fight communism.
Eh? AFAIK, they are funded and controlled by Saudi oil dollars and they
predate the communist push in Afghanistan by some decades.
As early as the 1950's United States' think tanks believed that Islam is
the most effective force capable of resisting the spread of communism in
the Middle East. The Madrassehs were one of the many experiments
conducted in controlling and mastering this force.
| | | | | | |
