"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
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"Barbarossa" <fa073505@skynet.be> wrote in message
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"The CO" <the_xo@yahoo.com.au> schreef in bericht
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<admin@bushlies2.us> wrote in message
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utterly convinced that this administration committed mass murder,

killing

3,000 of its own citizens.

The you'd be completely wrong and I suspect you don't actually believe

it

either.

Well, I don't happen to believe the official story either. It just does

not

add
up.

Which part?

I know the neocons right wing nut jobs will think
Im a ...well, a nut job...

They wouldn't be the only ones. Heck, I'm not even American or

Republican,

however I don't believe you are a 'nut job', as you put it, but rather

an

opportunist
and that you or someone connected with you has some vested interest in
pushing
the fantasy of a grand conspiracy, presumably with the intent of

money from
it, probably through either a subscription to a 'conspiracy' web site

some kind or
more likely through selling some overpriced book that 'proves' all

of

whacko BS.

Have you actually been on his site?

I have.

I quess not, then you would know that
you can see all relevant videos at no costs at all. There is no money
involved
whatsoever.

No there isn't, but there is money at the bottom of this somewhere, or he
wouldn't
be spamming in here. He's far to savvy to actually believe this to be

so therefore
he has another reason for doing so. The simplest explanation is that he

getting something
out of it, either directly or indirectly, that something is probably

but could be some
other form of gain. That could include simply sowing FUD about the

government in
the minds of some people, obviously if you believed this you would be
unlikely to vote for
the Republicans again. In either case, he is getting something out of it,
the question is merely
what it is.

Those islamic terrorists, some of them are actually alive and wel in SA

were

just patsies. Look at the videos yourself. There is no way flight 77

caused

the catastrophe at the Pentagon. Such a large plane would have made a
much larger impact than the actual impact at the Pentagon.

Sorry mate, but that's simply not so. The damage is entirely consistent
with an airliner sized aircraft
hitting the building at high speed. I have high res pictures taken a day
or so after the event and you
can clearly see the impact points of the engines and you can also see (if
you know what to look for)
the incomel turbine wheel from one of the engines.
The conspirowhackos babble on about how there should be more debris but
deliberately ignore several
characteristics of large airliners that make that unlikely given the

of the accident and subsequent fire.

1) Aircraft are mostly empty space, a thin tube that contain a lot of
combustible material (this includes
fixtures, fittings, seats, luggage and of course, people) but mostly, they
are a thin skin with not that much
inside them.
2) Most of an aircraft is made of an aluminium/magnesium based alloy

is also quite combustible
if you get it hot enough. Aluminium alloy burns *very* well in a jet fuel
driven fire, so the majority of the
aircraft was consumed by fire. Again examination of the visible debris
indicates this as some of the non
aluminium components (such as the turbine wheel which is made of incomel,

high temp alloy for the internal
'hot end' of a gas turbine engine) and some of the landing gear components
(which are mostly steel).
IIRC, the containment ring (a circular band of heavy duty metal that
surrounds the turbine and
compressor sections to prevent uncontained turbine blade failures from
sending a failed blade through
the side of the engine and perhaps into the aircraft doing further damage

causing injuries.) was also
visible and the size of both of them was consistent with an engine that
would be found on a heavy jet.
The aluminium structure is relatively soft compared to the large solid
building, so it collapsed on impact
rather more than the building itself. Again you can see the separate

points and depth of the smaller
but more rigid engine assemblies. The only thing the aircraft has going
for it is inertia and that alone would
not be enough to do more than it did to a substantial building like the
Pentagon. Bits of aircraft that penetrated
to the other side of the WTC on impact had a much less substantial

the fuselage would have been
stopped by the building core, but some engine components went straight
through the essentially open office space
and out the other side of the buildings.

Visit the site and look at the videos.

I have, many times. I see nothing that indicates that it was anything

than what it appeared to be.

There is no financial catch. I could watch all videos without paying for
them.

I'm quite sure that there is either a financial gain for him somewhere
(books? links to other sites with
more 'evidence') or perhaps he's a political activist that is doing it
purely for the FUD he can create, in
any case I believe two things.
1) That there is no conspiracy and he knows that.
2) That he is obtaining something by pushing this story, be it political,
fiscal or otherwise.

You seem pretty biased to me.

I was in the aviation industry and I have been to crash sites. The damage
is consistent with what
was in the pictures and what I saw, live on tv (yes we do get live tv of
such events down here) as it happened
and I have looked at my own recordings of the live feed several times. I
have very carefully examined the
high res images of the Pentagon impact site and see nothing that suggests
anything other than a large two engined aircraft hit the Pentagon. Anyone
that believes there should be masses of aircraft debris is completely
ignorant
of how (and of what!) an airliner is constructed or is deliberately

the fact.

I feel it is important, especially after the last election, that all

us

left

wing , progressive, free thinking liberal 'crazies' stand up and be

counted.

You would have been better off doing so at the election, if you had,

your

candidate
would have won..........
It appears you are a minority.

As if the majority is always right on subjects.

Don't disagree, the point is that the majority RULES, even if they are
wrong.
If your side loses, you have to put up with whatever ***** the other side

out
until the next election rolls around, at which point you get to give an
opinion again.
If enough people change their minds then you get your bloke in office.

The point I was trying to make is simply that the time to stand up and be
counted
is long past. Election day was the time to do so. It is now too late

another
3 years and some months.

The more people see the videos on his site the better it is.

Not really, many will believe the 'explanations' on the site, which are
pseudo scientific
***** basically. In short he's spreading lies for fiscal or political
gain.
I've no problem with factual presentations, but there are no facts being
given on that site,
simply conspiracy tales twisted to fit.

No, a 'win' to AQ or OBL consists of killing infidels, destroying

western

democracy and
installing a global Ummah or Islamic State, with OBL as the Caliph.

It is you believing fairy tales.

You are entitled to your opinion. That is the stated goal of AQ, to
establish a
global ummah, it follows that the leader of AQ would be most likely to be
the
first Caliph of any such islamic state. I don't believe they have any
realistic
chance of achieving that and I also believe that Sept 11 was their magnum
opus,
had they been capable of anything worse, they would have done it then or
since.

Their story is fucked up. It doesn't make sense. Hell, at least 7 of
the hijackers have turned up ALIVE. Amazing how 7 hijackers can

survive

slamming an airplane into a building which then crumbles.

All that means is that the real names of all of them are not known and

may

never be known.
The people that flew into the buildings are dead, there is no doubt

they were AQ, OBL
himself admitted involvement.

How convienient for Bush right?

Convenience is irrelevant. It's known that people using those names
boarded the aircraft in question.
It's also known that the hijackers of the flight that crashed in
Pennsylvania were described by the pax
that managed to make phone calls from the aircraft as being Middle Eastern
Islamics.
I'm really not sure what the point is about the hijackers being 'alive'
elsewhere, they were all using
false names and stolen or otherwise bogus passports.

The iron contruction just a couple of floors below inpact was not heated
that much to force the building to collapse. There were even people

on those floors. They weren't toasted, neither was the steel.

No, certainly not, *they didn't need to be*.

It only required *one* weak point, they knew where to hit to get that
effect, high enough
to be out of reach of firefighters that might extinguish it in time to

the structural failure,
far enough from the top to have a substantial tonnage of metal and

etc above the
point where the structure was being weakened. That's all it took, the

core support structure
was softened by the extreme heat on the floors where the fire was raging,
the weight of the upper
portion caused the weakened steel core to fail at that point, and the
unimaginable mass of the
upper stories free fell into the next, and it was like a deck of cards

that, the falling mass
picking up speed and intertia that were sufficient to collapse even the
undamaged parts of the
lower structure.
Some 4 months ago now, I had the opportunity to have lunch with a former
colleague who lives
interstate and who is now a structural engineer He had seen the plans

the
WTC and had made a study of it post Sept 11 as part of his studies. He was
quite sure that the weakening of the
support core by the intense heat caused the stress failure of critical
support members and that
the intertia of the collapsing upper stories would have been well beyond
that the unaffected areas
could sustain and that they would have progressively failed. Steel loses
something like 40% of
its structural strength at 1300c, more than enough to induce a structural
failure that would then
cascade down the structure, overstressing the uncompromised structure
beneath it progressively.

Again, no financial catch.

That has yet to be demonstrated. There is something in it for him, he is
far too intelligent to believe
some of the inspired nuttiness on that site.

Now I'm betting you are you going to come back with the story about

something other than a 767
hit the Pentagon? Go ahead, I'm waiting....

There was no boeing hitting the Pentagon. That is a fairy tale.

No that is your (incorrect) belief. No disrespect, but *you* sound

It appears to me very much that you hate Bush and his lot so badly that

*want* this to be true. Do you doubt that airliners hit the WTC?

And you
accuse
others of believing in fairy tales? Remember the El Al Boeing that

in
Amsterdam some 11 years ago? That was a Boeing! Much more damage.

Didn't hit a single structure and it came from above, not the side and

much
less substantial structures. Much more debris resulted, this is not
inconsistent with
the scenario, lower speed impact, more and bigger pieces.

I notice that there is no attempt to argue that anything other than
airliners hit the WTC,
purely because too many people saw it happen on tv, live across the world.
Apart from
some side aspect fragmentary footage from a security camera there is no
footage of the
aircraft hitting the Pentagon, which makes it kook fodder for wild claims.

can't follow the logic
of this at all, nobble four airliners, crash two of them into the WTC in
full view of half the
planet but for some unexplained reason substitute some thing else for
another one in order
to hit the Pentagon with it?
I'm not even going to dwell on the sheer impossibiltiy of keeping any part
of such a monstrous
conspiracy from being outed and those responsible strung up. The most
powerful man in the
US couldn't hush up the details of simple botched burglary, but somehow

supposed to be
possible to pull something like this and no one blows the whistle?

Regards