Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice

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Topic:	Science > Prophecies-Of-Nostradamus
User:	"Aidan"
Date:	24 Mar 2005 08:48:44 AM
Object:	Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice

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Some interesting links and info regarding Terri Schiavo. Most
interesting I find is the fact that her EEG tests were flat, and that
CAT scans have shown that she no longer has a cerebral cortex. Given
these 2 factors, I find it hard to reconcile the notion that she is not
completely brain-dead. (taken from kuro5hin.org)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For weeks, Terri Schiavo has been featured prominently in local,
regional and national news. As many of you know, Terri is a woman who
has been in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) for approximately 15
years. After an early experimental procedure failed and it became clear
(at least to her doctors and husband) that she had no chance of
recovery, her husband decided it was time to disconnect the feeding
tube. Her parents have tied up the US legal system for roughly a decade
with at least thirty legal challenges to "save" their daughter,
including three denied requests for the US Supreme Court to review the
case. Conducted from a variety of approaches, all of these challenges
have failed or been rejected from review.
What follows is some quick background information on Terri's condition,
and a refutation of most of the points (in no particular order) Terri's
parents and various members of the public have used to claim the feeding
tube should not be removed (or, rather, at this point, re-inserted) in
their dozens of legal challenges and press conferences. Since much of
the coverage recently has been on current status and not the history of
the case, I've included some quick background information.
*Background information*
Terri collapsed in her house one morning in 1990, shortly after a
fertility-related medical procedure. Some believe the collapse was
caused by an interaction between a possible eating disorder and the
procedure; in her teens, Terri weighed over 200 pounds, but weighed
closer to 120 pounds when she collapsed. Her collapse woke her husband
Michael, and she was rushed to the hospital with multiple resuscitations
en-route. At the hospital, Terri suffered briefly from comas and
seizures, and was initially on a ventilator, but these subsided quickly
and the ventilator was removed; however, she remained in a PVS. An
experimental treatment was attempted, and failed. Total brain death was
clearly evident. Shortly thereafter, and almost 5 years after she
collapsed, Michael started the process of having her feeding tube
removed, and Terri's parents began the crusade to "save" their
daughter's life.
The Florida legislature has attempted to intervene twice before, but has
since developed cold feet and is unwilling to commit political suicide
with Jeb Bush. Many Florida state legislators, and not just Democrats,
see the legislative action as a severe intrusion into individual rights.
Republican leaders on a federal congressional level demanded members
return to Washington to pass specific legislation allowing further
review of her parents case, which was delivered well after midnight to
President Bush. Still, two appeals to a federal court that followed have
been rejected on the grounds court interference would be a violation of
Terri's constitutional rights. A federal judge has issued a strongly
worded warning to the governor of Florida not to take Terri into state
custody. The state legislature has adjourned for Easter holiday. Though
the previous three appeals of the case did not approach justices after
going through the federal circuit, it is unlikely that the Supreme Court
will take the case; most of the justices are strong supporters of
state's rights. It appears that most, if not all, options of further
appeal have finally been exhausted, and there is a strong chance Terri's
body will cease to function in a few days.
*The tapes show a woman responding to stimuli*
Many legislators have viewed less than ten minutes of selectively
provided footage of home movies and concluded that Terri is "cognizant
of her surroundings" and is "alive". Tom DeLay stooped to an all-time
low calling Florida Judge Greer a "murder and terrorist"
<http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/22/Northpinellas/Local_Republicans_bac.shtml>
and cited such footage as why he believes Terri is not in a PVS. Only a
small handful of legislators have any medical training. Among those who
do are the two republican lawmakers who sponsored S686- Dave Weldon
(from Florida), a specialist in internal medicine, and Bill Frist, a
cardiologist. Yet some medical professionals have indicated that
offering a medical opinion based on viewing a few minutes of videotape
and intentional use of their credentials to manipulate public opinion
amounts to severe medical malpractice, if not outright unethical
conduct. In 1996 a CAT scan showed, according to 2nd District Federal
Court ruling, "severely abnormal structure" and that her cerebral cortex
is "simply gone and replaced with spinal fluid". EEGs
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography> were flatline.
Federal judges have ruled, after viewing all of the tapes (there are
many, not just the 5-10 minutes her parents have chosen to share with
legislators or the media) Terri's reactions are only coincidental.
Indeed, grunts, screams, grimaces, and random motions "without purpose"
are very characteristic of PVS. All court-appointed doctors have
concluded responses are reflexive or without purpose. Most of those in
support of the opinion Terri is "alive" have not so much as stepped foot
inside her room; of those that have, few have attempted to interact with
her or examine her. Dr. Hammesfahr, one of the few doctors to have
examined her and concluded she was not in a PVS, has an extremely
questionable background <http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002>.
Dr. Cheshire, who has also declared Terri is not in a PVS, also has an
axe to grind <http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html>.
Neither doctor has addressed the rather clear evidence provided by the
CAT scans and EEGs- nor have Weldon or Frist. Laughably, in a transcript
of one of Frist's speeches to the Senate floor on March 17th
<http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/frist200503181027.asp>, Frist
reveals his ignorance of PVS: "I MENTIONED THAT TERRY'S BROTHER TOLD ME
THAT TERRY LAUGHS, SMILES, AND TRIES TO SPEAK. DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A
WOMAN IN PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE".
In truth, patients in a PVS do show such symptoms
<http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:X_XRInY9yp0J:www.vegetativestate.org/crawford.doc>:
"Patients in VS can demonstrate behaviors that are associated in
non-brain injured individuals with emotional experience, such as crying,
grimacing, smiling, or laughing (Royal College of Physicians, 2003).
When the patient fulfills diagnostic criteria for VS, these behaviors
must reflect subcortical functions and are not indicative of subjective
distress. *Not surprisingly, this can be difficult for relatives to
understand, and many families reasonably perceive these behaviors as
signs that the patient is intentionally trying to 'wake up'* (Jacobs et
al., 1986)." (emphasis added).
*Terri has a chance of recovery*
After 5 years in a persistent vegetative state, the medical community is
in nearly universal agreement that any recovery is impossible. It has
been 15 years. Clear, indisputable medical evidence proves she is
completely braindead; as Dr. Cranford has pointed out in the Times
article cited above, "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain
[...] Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from
her brain." The reason she is still is able to breathe and has
autonomic/reflexive responses is not because she is "alive", but because
her brain stem is still functioning. There is no consciousness or memory
in the brain stem. The brain cannot "grow back"; it can 'reroute' and
deal with incredible trauma (albeit at reduced capacity) if enough of
the brain is undamaged and still active, but total brain death is
permanent.
*Removing the tube would be painful or unusual*
We wrongly infer from our own intense suffering when we are hungry that
Terri must feel this hunger. Most doctors will tell you there's little
pain involved and many cognizant patients prefer it
<http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050322starvation,1,6855148.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=3&cset=true>.
Keep in mind we're also not brain-dead. Because Terri has no active
brain tissue left, her body is incapable of 'feeling' pain beyond
autonomic responses in the brain stem to stimuli.
*It's not moral*
Morals certainly enter into the decision, but certainly not your morals,
and it's not your decision. Nor is it up to a judge, the legislature,
the President, or the Pope. Thus far, only the judicial branch has
consistently and clearly recognized it has no right to inject itself
into the matter. It is purely the decision of the legal guardian; in
this case, Michael, her husband. Multiple challenges by Terri's parents
asserting he has self-serving financial motives have failed, as have
assertions that he abused her, or that his dating another woman (and
having two children with her) invalidates his marriage and hence his
right as guardian. While it is doubtful as a Catholic that Terri would
approve of his affair and fathering two children out of wedlock- as a
Catholic, she could also abhor divorce. It could swing both ways, and
it's not our decision.
Speaking of the Pope, last year he said, "The evaluation of the
probability, founded on scarce hope of recovery after the vegetative
state has lasted for more than a year, cannot ethically justify the
abandonment or the interruption of minimal care for the patient,
including food and water." One notes the mention of "scarce hope" (in
Terri's case, there is zero hope- she simply has no brain left) and "one
year" (she's been in a PVS for 15 years). To a certain extent, I agree
with his statement. I suspect most medical professionals do as well; one
year isn't nearly enough time purely from statistical perspectives, and
human life is too important to say "oh, we don't want to wait, sorry",
yank the plug, and turn out the lights- simply because it was expensive,
emotionally difficult, or what have you. As a K5'er pointed out, there
hasn't been any specific comment by the Pope on Terri's case, although a
Vatican newspaper condemned the tube removal, and some Vatican officials
have strongly condemned judicial decisions to block the tube removal as
well. Interestingly, not everyone in the Catholic church agrees; for
centuries it has been the church's position that extraordinary measures
are not obligatory in prolonging someone's life. This could launch a
whole other article, but instead, I'll just link to the Chicago Tribune
article
<http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050322religion,1,6343412.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true>
instead.
*The public is outraged!*
Most of the surveys, posed in a variety of ways ranging from "if you
were Terri, would you want your feeding tube removed" to "do you support
the judge's decision to deny the appeal" and so on- show a public mostly
in support of the husband's position and against federal
legislative/executive intervention
<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=schiavo+surveys&btnG=Search+News>.
The percentages drop slightly if you pose these questions to people who
identify themselves as conservative Christians. Look really hard at a
photo of Terri. Place yourself in that bed. Picture yourself being there
for a decade and a half, brain-dead, flailing at random like a fish out
of water because you have no brain left, being kept alive by a feeding
tube. Your face plastered across the newspapers and TV sets of the
world. If that isn't enough to make you run out right now and draw up a
living will, I don't know what is.
I suspect most people who are aware of the facts are outraged that the
parents won't accept that their daughter's brain is completely dead,
that her "reactions" are well documented symptoms of PVS, and the
government has been able to inject itself numerous times into what is
easily the most private matter a family can face. I strongly suspect
that public opinion would swing significantly in favor of the husband if
most people simply understood the facts behind the situation, or had the
conviction to accept that, in the land of the free, their personal or
religious beliefs shouldn't have much bearing on such an intimate matter
for another individual.
*Terri's husband just wants her money*
This argument conjures up images of a bank account flush with millions
from malpractice suits and whatnot. After her initial collapse, her
husband sued for medical malpractice. Yes, he won. The settlement was
for approximately one million dollars, $700,000 of which went to a trust
fund for Terri's treatment. $300,000 went to her husband. The $700,000
is mostly gone thanks to over a decade of legal challenges brought by
her parents and 15 years of medical care; in 2003 Michael's attorneys
said there was about $50,000 left. Terri (and her husband) have little
to no money left; her medical bills are currently paid for by Medicare,
and the hospice covers her room and board. Michael offered to donate the
settlement to charity if her parents agreed to remove the tube. Her
parents refused. A businessman recently offered $1M to Michael to give
up guardianship of his wife. He refused.
*Perversions of government*
You can thank your lucky stars that our judicial system stepped in to
check the other two branches of the federal government, which have
clearly gone berserk. No matter whether you feel "the tube" needs to be
put back in or not, I am frightened by the vigor with which members of
the legislative and executive branches of our government attempted to
force themselves so deeply into such an intimately personal decision by
one individual and one family. Further, while faced with a variety of
issues of critical importance to the future of millions of Americans,
our federal legislators went for a week's vacation. However, for the
purpose of "saving" one brain-dead woman, they suddenly found time to
jump back on planes to DC and work feverishly into the night. What?
*Lessons learned*
What is the lesson in all of this for us on a personal level? Write a
living will, and talk to your family about your wishes. Terri's wishes
are at best unclear since her husband did not immediately reveal a
conversation he claimed to have had with her on the subject. If Terri
had a living will, chances are better that her wishes would have been
observed, and she would have lived or died with far more dignity and
privacy than she has. If her living will had indicated a desire to
terminate care, her parents would have possibly been more easily able to
come to terms with the death of their daughter, her family might be able
to speak to each other, and she would have died, with far more dignity
and peace, over a decade ago. It's not her fault, certainly- facing our
own mortality can be extremely difficult, especially if you have a
spouse or children. Given the stakes, the effort seems worth it.
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Some interesting links and info regarding
Terri Schiavo.  Most interesting I find is the fact that her EEG tests
were flat, and that CAT scans have shown that she no longer has a
cerebral cortex.  Given these 2 factors, I find it hard to reconcile
the notion that she is not completely brain-dead.  (taken from
kuro5hin.org) 
 

<hr size="2" width="100%"> 
For weeks,
Terri Schiavo has been featured prominently in local,
regional and national news. As many of you know, Terri is a woman who
has been in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) for approximately 15
years. After an early experimental procedure failed and it became clear
(at least to her doctors and husband) that she had no chance of
recovery, her husband decided it was time to disconnect the feeding
tube. Her parents have tied up the US legal system for roughly a decade
with at least thirty legal challenges to "save" their daughter,
including three denied requests for the US Supreme Court to review the
case. Conducted from a variety of approaches, all of these challenges
have failed or been rejected from review.

What
follows is some quick background information on Terri's condition, and
a refutation of most of the points (in no particular order) Terri's
parents and various members of the public have used to claim the
feeding tube should not be removed (or, rather, at this point,
re-inserted) in their dozens of legal challenges and press conferences.
Since much of the coverage recently has been on current status and not
the history of the case, I've included some quick background
information. 

Background information
 
Terri collapsed in her house one morning in 1990, shortly after a
fertility-related medical procedure. Some believe the collapse was
caused by an interaction between a possible eating disorder and the
procedure; in her teens, Terri weighed over 200 pounds, but weighed
closer to 120 pounds when she collapsed. Her collapse woke her husband
Michael, and she was rushed to the hospital with multiple
resuscitations en-route. At the hospital, Terri suffered briefly from
comas and seizures, and was initially on a ventilator, but these
subsided quickly and the ventilator was removed; however, she remained
in a PVS. An experimental treatment was attempted, and failed. Total
brain death was clearly evident. Shortly thereafter, and almost 5 years
after she collapsed, Michael started the process of having her feeding
tube removed, and Terri's parents began the crusade to "save" their
daughter's life.

The
Florida legislature has attempted to intervene twice before, but has
since developed cold feet and is unwilling to commit political suicide
with Jeb Bush. Many Florida state legislators, and not just Democrats,
see the legislative action as a severe intrusion into individual
rights. Republican leaders on a federal congressional level demanded
members return to Washington to pass specific legislation allowing
further review of her parents case, which was delivered well after
midnight to President Bush. Still, two appeals to a federal court that
followed have been rejected on the grounds court interference would be
a violation of Terri's constitutional rights. A federal judge has
issued a strongly worded warning to the governor of Florida not to take
Terri into state custody. The state legislature has adjourned for
Easter holiday. Though the previous three appeals of the case did not
approach justices after going through the federal circuit, it is
unlikely that the Supreme Court will take the case; most of the
justices are strong supporters of state's rights. It appears that most,
if not all, options of further appeal have finally been exhausted, and
there is a strong chance Terri's body will cease to function in a few
days.

The tapes show a woman responding to stimuli
 
Many legislators have viewed less than ten minutes of selectively
provided footage of home movies and concluded that Terri is "cognizant
of her surroundings" and is "alive". Tom DeLay stooped to an all-time
low <a
href="http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/22/Northpinellas/Local_Republicans_bac.shtml">calling
Florida Judge Greer a "murder and terrorist"</a>
and cited such footage as why he believes Terri is not in a PVS. Only a
small handful of legislators have any medical training. Among those who
do are the two republican lawmakers who sponsored S686- Dave Weldon
(from Florida), a specialist in internal medicine, and Bill Frist, a
cardiologist. Yet some medical professionals have indicated that
offering a medical opinion based on viewing a few minutes of videotape
and intentional use of their credentials to manipulate public opinion
amounts to severe medical malpractice, if not outright unethical
conduct. In 1996 a CAT scan showed, according to 2nd District Federal
Court ruling, "severely abnormal structure" and that her cerebral
cortex is "simply gone and replaced with spinal fluid". <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography">EEGs</a>
were flatline. Federal judges have ruled, after viewing all of the
tapes (there are many, not just the 5-10 minutes her parents have
chosen to share with legislators or the media) Terri's reactions are
only coincidental. Indeed, grunts, screams, grimaces, and random
motions "without purpose" are very characteristic of PVS. All
court-appointed doctors have concluded responses are reflexive or
without purpose. Most of those in support of the opinion Terri is
"alive" have not so much as stepped foot inside her room; of those that
have, few have attempted to interact with her or examine her. Dr.
Hammesfahr, one of the few doctors to have examined her and concluded
she was not in a PVS, has an <a
href="http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002">extremely
questionable background</a>. Dr. Cheshire, who has also declared Terri
is not in a PVS, also <a
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/national/24doctor.html">has an
axe to grind</a>.
Neither doctor has addressed the rather clear evidence provided by the
CAT scans and EEGs- nor have Weldon or Frist. Laughably, in a <a
href="http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/frist200503181027.asp">transcript
of one of Frist's speeches to the Senate floor on March 17th</a>,
Frist reveals his ignorance of PVS: "I MENTIONED THAT TERRY'S BROTHER
TOLD ME THAT TERRY LAUGHS, SMILES, AND TRIES TO SPEAK. DOESN'T SOUND
LIKE A WOMAN IN PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE".

In truth, patients in a PVS <a
href="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:X_XRInY9yp0J:www.vegetativestate.org/crawford.doc">do
show such symptoms</a>:
"Patients in VS can demonstrate behaviors that are associated in
non-brain injured individuals with emotional experience, such as
crying, grimacing, smiling, or laughing (Royal College of Physicians,
2003). When the patient fulfills diagnostic criteria for VS, these
behaviors must reflect subcortical functions and are not indicative of
subjective distress. Not surprisingly, this can be difficult for
relatives to understand, and many families reasonably perceive these
behaviors as signs that the patient is intentionally trying to 'wake
up' (Jacobs et al., 1986)." (emphasis added).

Terri has a chance of recovery
 
After 5 years in a persistent vegetative state, the medical
community is in nearly universal agreement that any recovery is
impossible. It has been 15 years. Clear, indisputable medical evidence
proves she is completely braindead; as Dr. Cranford has pointed out in
the Times article cited above, "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of
the brain [...] Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity
coming from her brain." The reason she is still is able to breathe and
has autonomic/reflexive responses is not because she is "alive", but
because her brain stem is still functioning. There is no consciousness
or memory in the brain stem. The brain cannot "grow back"; it can
'reroute' and deal with incredible trauma (albeit at reduced capacity)
if enough of the brain is undamaged and still active, but total brain
death is permanent.

Removing the tube would be painful or unusual
 
We wrongly infer from our own intense suffering when we are hungry that
Terri must feel this hunger. Most doctors will tell you <a
href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050322starvation,1,6855148.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=3&cset=true">there's
little pain involved and many cognizant patients prefer it</a>.
Keep in mind we're also not brain-dead. Because Terri has no active
brain tissue left, her body is incapable of 'feeling' pain beyond
autonomic responses in the brain stem to stimuli.

It's not moral
 
Morals certainly enter into the decision, but certainly not your
morals, and it's not your decision. Nor is it up to a judge, the
legislature, the President, or the Pope. Thus far, only the judicial
branch has consistently and clearly recognized it has no right to
inject itself into the matter. It is purely the decision of the legal
guardian; in this case, Michael, her husband. Multiple challenges by
Terri's parents asserting he has self-serving financial motives have
failed, as have assertions that he abused her, or that his dating
another woman (and having two children with her) invalidates his
marriage and hence his right as guardian. While it is doubtful as a
Catholic that Terri would approve of his affair and fathering two
children out of wedlock- as a Catholic, she could also abhor divorce.
It could swing both ways, and it's not our decision.

Speaking
of the Pope, last year he said, "The evaluation of the probability,
founded on scarce hope of recovery after the vegetative state has
lasted for more than a year, cannot ethically justify the abandonment
or the interruption of minimal care for the patient, including food and
water." One notes the mention of "scarce hope" (in Terri's case, there
is zero hope- she simply has no brain left) and "one year" (she's been
in a PVS for 15 years). To a certain extent, I agree with his
statement. I suspect most medical professionals do as well; one year
isn't nearly enough time purely from statistical perspectives, and
human life is too important to say "oh, we don't want to wait, sorry",
yank the plug, and turn out the lights- simply because it was
expensive, emotionally difficult, or what have you. As a K5'er pointed
out, there hasn't been any specific comment by the Pope on Terri's
case, although a Vatican newspaper condemned the tube removal, and some
Vatican officials have strongly condemned judicial decisions to block
the tube removal as well. Interestingly, not everyone in the Catholic
church agrees; for centuries it has been the church's position that
extraordinary measures are not obligatory in prolonging someone's life.
This could launch a whole other article, but instead, I'll just link to
the <a
href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050322religion,1,6343412.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true">Chicago
Tribune article</a> instead.

The public is outraged!
 
Most of the surveys, posed in a variety of ways ranging from "if
you were Terri, would you want your feeding tube removed" to "do you
support the judge's decision to deny the appeal" and so on- show a
public <a
href="http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=schiavo+surveys&btnG=Search+News">mostly
in support of the husband's position and against federal
legislative/executive intervention</a>.
The percentages drop slightly if you pose these questions to people who
identify themselves as conservative Christians. Look really hard at a
photo of Terri. Place yourself in that bed. Picture yourself being
there for a decade and a half, brain-dead, flailing at random like a
fish out of water because you have no brain left, being kept alive by a
feeding tube. Your face plastered across the newspapers and TV sets of
the world. If that isn't enough to make you run out right now and draw
up a living will, I don't know what is.

I
suspect most people who are aware of the facts are outraged that the
parents won't accept that their daughter's brain is completely dead,
that her "reactions" are well documented symptoms of PVS, and the
government has been able to inject itself numerous times into what is
easily the most private matter a family can face. I strongly suspect
that public opinion would swing significantly in favor of the husband
if most people simply understood the facts behind the situation, or had
the conviction to accept that, in the land of the free, their personal
or religious beliefs shouldn't have much bearing on such an intimate
matter for another individual.

Terri's husband just wants her money
 
This argument conjures up images of a bank account flush with
millions from malpractice suits and whatnot. After her initial
collapse, her husband sued for medical malpractice. Yes, he won. The
settlement was for approximately one million dollars, $700,000 of which
went to a trust fund for Terri's treatment. $300,000 went to her
husband. The $700,000 is mostly gone thanks to over a decade of legal
challenges brought by her parents and 15 years of medical care; in 2003
Michael's attorneys said there was about $50,000 left. Terri (and her
husband) have little to no money left; her medical bills are currently
paid for by Medicare, and the hospice covers her room and board.
Michael offered to donate the settlement to charity if her parents
agreed to remove the tube. Her parents refused. A businessman recently
offered $1M to Michael to give up guardianship of his wife. He refused.

Perversions of government
 
You can thank your lucky stars that our judicial system stepped in
to check the other two branches of the federal government, which have
clearly gone berserk. No matter whether you feel "the tube" needs to be
put back in or not, I am frightened by the vigor with which members of
the legislative and executive branches of our government attempted to
force themselves so deeply into such an intimately personal decision by
one individual and one family. Further, while faced with a variety of
issues of critical importance to the future of millions of Americans,
our federal legislators went for a week's vacation. However, for the
purpose of "saving" one brain-dead woman, they suddenly found time to
jump back on planes to DC and work feverishly into the night. What?

<div align="justify">Lessons learned
 
What is the
lesson in all of this for us on a personal level? Write
a living will, and talk to your family about your wishes. Terri's
wishes are at best unclear since her husband did not immediately reveal
a conversation he claimed to have had with her on the subject. If Terri
had a living will, chances are better that her wishes would have been
observed, and she would have lived or died with far more dignity and
privacy than she has. If her living will had indicated a desire to
terminate care, her parents would have possibly been more easily able
to come to terms with the death of their daughter, her family might be
able to speak to each other, and she would have died, with far more
dignity and peace, over a decade ago. It's not her fault, certainly-
facing our own mortality can be extremely difficult, especially if you
have a spouse or children. Given the stakes, the effort seems worth it.</div>

 

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User: ""
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 03:39:25 PM

Isn't it nice to see a splinter issue being raised as a litmus test?
Emotive and of course the point of the truth, not to mention the
seeming ability to interfere, in due process, in a poorer land no doubt
Ms Shiavo would have had the situation resolved in the first week of
her collapse.
So is it a campaign about the individual or a flexing of the fundie
muscles? They used to say "the right to life until you are born"
LB
.

User: "Nova Carta"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 05:43:49 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Some interesting links and info regarding Terri Schiavo. Most
interesting I find is the fact that her EEG tests were flat, and that
CAT scans have shown that she no longer has a cerebral cortex. Given
these 2 factors, I find it hard to reconcile the notion that she is not
completely brain-dead. (taken from kuro5hin.org)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Terri has a chance of recovery*
After 5 years in a persistent vegetative state, the medical community is
in nearly universal agreement that any recovery is impossible. It has
been 15 years. Clear, indisputable medical evidence proves she is
completely braindead; as Dr. Cranford has pointed out in the Times
article cited above, "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain
[...] Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from
her brain." The reason she is still is able to breathe and has
autonomic/reflexive responses is not because she is "alive", but because
her brain stem is still functioning. There is no consciousness or memory
in the brain stem. The brain cannot "grow back"; it can 'reroute' and
deal with incredible trauma (albeit at reduced capacity) if enough of
the brain is undamaged and still active, but total brain death is
permanent.

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.
http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html
Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.
Nova
.

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 07:35:10 PM

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

*Terri has a chance of recovery*
After 5 years in a persistent vegetative state, the medical community is
in nearly universal agreement that any recovery is impossible. It has
been 15 years. Clear, indisputable medical evidence proves she is
completely braindead; as Dr. Cranford has pointed out in the Times
article cited above, "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain
[...] Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from
her brain." The reason she is still is able to breathe and has
autonomic/reflexive responses is not because she is "alive", but because
her brain stem is still functioning. There is no consciousness or memory
in the brain stem. The brain cannot "grow back"; it can 'reroute' and
deal with incredible trauma (albeit at reduced capacity) if enough of
the brain is undamaged and still active, but total brain death is
permanent.

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Not exactly. The brain stem isn't considered part of the brain, as its
functions are for the autonomic nervous system. It's what keeps your
body running when you're doing something else, like sleeping, working,
whatever. Kind of like having a daemon running in the background, but
it's NOT the OS.
Woods
.

User: "Aidan"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 05:51:20 PM

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

The 'brain stem' is the part of the brain that deals with motor skills,
reflexes and regulating the bodies functions. No thought process occurs
in the brain stem, it gathers no memories, and feels no emotions.
.

User: "Nova Carta"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 06:12:15 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?
There are many creatures that we believe have no more than this, yet
we declare them to be "life" and we recognise their right to exist.
If the lack of emotion and memory condemns this woman to death then we
are setting a precedent. Who will be next? Those with Alzheimer's
disease.? People in Comas? Old folks with dementia?
Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"
Nova
.

User: "Aidan"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 07:22:48 PM

(I apollogise if any of this sounds harsh or uncaring..)
Nova Carta wrote:
....

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

Technically, no. But IMHO, she is alive in the same way a house plant
is alive... She doesn't have idle thoughts, or dreams... she has no
cognition left in her, just unconscious reflex. Reflex might even be the
wrong word to use, as she _doesn't_ respond to any kind of stimuli.

There are many creatures that we believe have no more than this, yet
we declare them to be "life" and we recognise their right to exist.

Those creatures still have the ability to self-sustain. They likely
also reproduce and effect their environment in some noticeable way.
If Terri was a mollusk, then I could see your point that she is still
has 'life' inside her... But without cognition, emotion or memories,
what is it that makes her 'life' worth living? Is she even self-aware?
My guess would be no.

If the lack of emotion and memory condemns this woman to death then we
are setting a precedent. Who will be next? Those with Alzheimer's
disease.? People in Comas? Old folks with dementia?

Well, if someone is in a PVS for over 15 years, and their EEG charts are
completely flat, then I think it's a pretty safe assumption to make that
there is no chance of their ever recovering. In the cases you describe,
all would have electrical activity in their brains, and this could be
shown with an EEG test.

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

Well, If I'm ever in a PVS for more than 5 years, my EEG charts are
flat, and my cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid, then I
would hope that someone would show mercy on me and allow my body to shut
down, like it's trying to.
And I think this is a big point: Her body IS trying to shut it self
off... without the artificial feeding mechanisms, she would have passed
away a long time ago. Her body has been kept alive, even though it had
degenerated to the point where it was unable to self-sustain...
How are we to know that it wasn't her time to go when she first
collapsed? Given her condition, I would say that it _was_ her time to
go, and that she has been denied a peaceful passing over.
.

User: "Perseid"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	26 Mar 2005 04:55:53 AM

Nova Carta <idlegossip2(remove)@yahoo.com.au> Spat the Words

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

*Terri has a chance of recovery*
After 5 years in a persistent vegetative state, the medical community

in nearly universal agreement that any recovery is impossible. It has
been 15 years. Clear, indisputable medical evidence proves she is
completely braindead; as Dr. Cranford has pointed out in the Times
article cited above, "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain
[...] Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming

from

her brain." The reason she is still is able to breathe and has
autonomic/reflexive responses is not because she is "alive", but

because

her brain stem is still functioning. There is no consciousness or

memory

in the brain stem. The brain cannot "grow back"; it can 'reroute' and
deal with incredible trauma (albeit at reduced capacity) if enough of
the brain is undamaged and still active, but total brain death is
permanent.

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

No, not completely brain-dead. She's more like an insect scurrying
around on the sidewalk. She has about that much mental functioning.
Sorry, it's harsh reality... no offense to the Schiavo family.

There are many creatures that we believe have no more than this, yet
we declare them to be "life" and we recognise their right to exist.
If the lack of emotion and memory condemns this woman to death then we
are setting a precedent. Who will be next? Those with Alzheimer's
disease.? People in Comas? Old folks with dementia?

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

Nova

User: "The Master"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	28 Mar 2005 06:01:13 AM

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

Surely you could have argued a better case for her than that?
According to your logic - That computer of yours is alive just because
it is plugged in!

There will always be Good and Evil battling it out. Fortunately,
however, the Truth is not attached to either of them!

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings with it many great
tribulations, eh!!
Perhaps you are yearning for an age, where there is a return to
innocence! (ignorance is bliss perhaps!).
In which case, perhaps nature is a better judge of what is right, than
simply our Good versus Evil emotions. After all, she has much more
experience of dealing with these cases than we do!
The Master
.

User: "Nova Carta"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	28 Mar 2005 06:53:30 AM

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:01:13 +0100, The Master <True@gospels.com>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

Surely you could have argued a better case for her than that?

According to your logic - That computer of yours is alive just because
it is plugged in!

There will always be Good and Evil battling it out. Fortunately,
however, the Truth is not attached to either of them!

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings with it many great
tribulations, eh!!

Perhaps you are yearning for an age, where there is a return to
innocence! (ignorance is bliss perhaps!).

In which case, perhaps nature is a better judge of what is right, than
simply our Good versus Evil emotions. After all, she has much more
experience of dealing with these cases than we do!

The Master

Some people have concluded that this planet is alive and has a
spirit.Some call it Gaia. Some people call the world around us Mother
Nature or simply nature and attribute human qualities to what is just
a physical home. I am not of the opinion that this planet is anything
other than water, rock, soil and air. The things that live on this
planet do not separately nor collectively judge the activities of man.
What man does to this planet is certainly subject to the law of cause
and effect as we dwell within a physical universe. This does not imply
any kind of judgement.
We are however subject to the judgement of other humans and to the
judgement of the one who created this physical realm. There has never
been an age of innocence. Such a time only exists in nostalgia and
fantasy. However, there will come a time when the war between Good and
Evil will end in this universe. You have your life-time to decide
which side you are going to be on.
Nova
.

User: "The Master"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	28 Mar 2005 12:16:50 PM

Nova Carta wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:01:13 +0100, The Master <True@gospels.com>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

Surely you could have argued a better case for her than that?

According to your logic - That computer of yours is alive just because
it is plugged in!

There will always be Good and Evil battling it out. Fortunately,
however, the Truth is not attached to either of them!

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings with it many great
tribulations, eh!!

Perhaps you are yearning for an age, where there is a return to
innocence! (ignorance is bliss perhaps!).

In which case, perhaps nature is a better judge of what is right, than
simply our Good versus Evil emotions. After all, she has much more
experience of dealing with these cases than we do!

The Master

Some people have concluded that this planet is alive and has a
spirit.Some call it Gaia. Some people call the world around us Mother
Nature or simply nature and attribute human qualities to what is just
a physical home. I am not of the opinion that this planet is anything
other than water, rock, soil and air. The things that live on this
planet do not separately nor collectively judge the activities of man.
What man does to this planet is certainly subject to the law of cause
and effect as we dwell within a physical universe. This does not imply
any kind of judgement.

We are however subject to the judgement of other humans and to the
judgement of the one who created this physical realm. There has never
been an age of innocence. Such a time only exists in nostalgia and
fantasy. However, there will come a time when the war between Good and
Evil will end in this universe. You have your life-time to decide
which side you are going to be on.

Nova

You think this is all about choosing sides?
In that case, let me tell you this. I have evolved from the Good versus
Evil syndrome of cave man thinking. The path that I follow is the path
of Truth!
The reason is simple! At the end of time, only the Truth will prevail.
Both Good and Evil stem from the same source. When one is destroyed, the
other is automatically destroyed with it. They are inseparable, as are
the two sides of the same coin. It's the nature of the Beast! So go
ahead destroy your adversary and at the same time yourself!
I choose neither, because the Good are also Evil and the Evil are also
Good. They just don't know it yet, because their Ego has blinded them
from the truth!
However, you still have eternity to figure it out! Perhaps in your next
life!
The Master
.

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	28 Mar 2005 07:17:47 AM

Nova Carta wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:01:13 +0100, The Master <True@gospels.com>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

Surely you could have argued a better case for her than that?

According to your logic - That computer of yours is alive just because
it is plugged in!

There will always be Good and Evil battling it out. Fortunately,
however, the Truth is not attached to either of them!

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings with it many great
tribulations, eh!!

Perhaps you are yearning for an age, where there is a return to
innocence! (ignorance is bliss perhaps!).

In which case, perhaps nature is a better judge of what is right, than
simply our Good versus Evil emotions. After all, she has much more
experience of dealing with these cases than we do!

The Master

Some people have concluded that this planet is alive and has a
spirit.Some call it Gaia. Some people call the world around us Mother
Nature or simply nature and attribute human qualities to what is just
a physical home. I am not of the opinion that this planet is anything
other than water, rock, soil and air. The things that live on this
planet do not separately nor collectively judge the activities of man.
What man does to this planet is certainly subject to the law of cause
and effect as we dwell within a physical universe. This does not imply
any kind of judgement.

We are however subject to the judgement of other humans and to the
judgement of the one who created this physical realm. There has never
been an age of innocence. Such a time only exists in nostalgia and
fantasy. However, there will come a time when the war between Good and
Evil will end in this universe. You have your life-time to decide
which side you are going to be on.

There are two kinds of people in this world... those who think there are
two kinds of people in this world and those who don't.
Ummm, pzzzzt.
-A

Nova

User: "Never anonymous Bud"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	28 Mar 2005 07:22:23 AM

Using a finger dipped in purple ink, Absolute Zero <amycaton@hotmail.com> scribed:

There are two kinds of people in this world...

Right, so far...

those who think there are
two kinds of people in this world and those who don't.

No, there's me, and then there is everyone else.
--
The truth is out there,

but it's not interesting enough for most people.
.

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 07:42:53 PM

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:20 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Nova Carta wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:48:44 GMT, Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au>
wrote:

Since when did the "Brain Stem" get a divorce from the rest of the
brain.

http://www.waiting.com/brainfuncthree.html

Since the Brain Stem is part of the brain and it is still functioning,
logic tells me that not all of her brain is dead.

Thanks for agreeing thatthe brain stem is part of the brain and is
still alive. This woman is not totally brain dead then is she?

Yes, by definition she is.

There are many creatures that we believe have no more than this, yet
we declare them to be "life" and we recognise their right to exist.

Your logic is flawed. A *species* is kept alive, even if it has little
to no thought capacity, but not individual specimens, necessarily.
Certainly, if a snail darter were found to be braindead and would never
come back to life, no matter how significant the efforts have been to
save the species, that individual snail darter would most definitely be
euthanized.

If the lack of emotion and memory condemns this woman to death then we
are setting a precedent. Who will be next? Those with Alzheimer's
disease.? People in Comas? Old folks with dementia?

A total lack of any brain activity is a pretty darned good line. The
person is not alive, but there is a shell whose autonomic system is
functioning.

Anyone who becomes a burden on others because they require constant
care and without that care would die is now at risk because of the
"Schiavo Precedent"

Puh-leeze. People have been pulling the plug on braindead patients for
years. The only difference here is that her brain stem is still
running, for whatever reason. But there are no thought processes, no
awareness, and no hope of there ever being any. She's gone.
That said, I still do not feel that a feeding tube is suitably
classified as "life support".
Woods
.

User: "=?iso-8859-1?q?=9F_WOMP_WOMP_WOMP_WOMP_=9F?="
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 07:24:46 PM

Starving her to death is inhuman!
That's all I have to say on the matter.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	24 Mar 2005 11:11:52 PM

On 24 Mar 2005 17:24:46 -0800, "Ÿ WOMP WOMP WOMP WOMP Ÿ"
<tadapope@aol.com> wrote:

Starving her to death is inhuman!
That's all I have to say on the matter.

It's the "American Way"
"Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one,some bigger than others"
.

User: "Barbarossa"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	25 Mar 2005 08:08:53 AM

Sorry Aidan, I cannot agree with you on this one. Terri is not on a
lung-heart machine
keeping her alive. She breaths by herself and her heart beats by itself. To
me this is
what it's all about. She is still alive. So, leaving out the tube for food
is murder.
Kind Regards,
Barbarossa
Aidan" <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:newscache$973vdi$30k$1@titan.linknet.com.au...
Some interesting links and info regarding Terri Schiavo. Most interesting I
find is the fact that her EEG tests were flat, and that CAT scans have shown
that she no longer has a cerebral cortex. Given these 2 factors, I find it
hard to reconcile the notion that she is not completely brain-dead. (taken
from kuro5hin.org)
For weeks, Terri Schiavo has been featured prominently in local, regional
and national news. As many of you know, Terri is a woman who has been in a
persistent vegetative state (PVS) for approximately 15 years. After an early
experimental procedure failed and it became clear (at least to her doctors
and husband) that she had no chance of recovery, her husband decided it was
time to disconnect the feeding tube. Her parents have tied up the US legal
system for roughly a decade with at least thirty legal challenges to "save"
their daughter, including three denied requests for the US Supreme Court to
review the case. Conducted from a variety of approaches, all of these
challenges have failed or been rejected from review.
What follows is some quick background information on Terri's condition, and
a refutation of most of the points (in no particular order) Terri's parents
and various members of the public have used to claim the feeding tube should
not be removed (or, rather, at this point, re-inserted) in their dozens of
legal challenges and press conferences. Since much of the coverage recently
has been on current status and not the history of the case, I've included
some quick background information.
Background information
Terri collapsed in her house one morning in 1990, shortly after a
fertility-related medical procedure. Some believe the collapse was caused by
an interaction between a possible eating disorder and the procedure; in her
teens, Terri weighed over 200 pounds, but weighed closer to 120 pounds when
she collapsed. Her collapse woke her husband Michael, and she was rushed to
the hospital with multiple resuscitations en-route. At the hospital, Terri
suffered briefly from comas and seizures, and was initially on a ventilator,
but these subsided quickly and the ventilator was removed; however, she
remained in a PVS. An experimental treatment was attempted, and failed.
Total brain death was clearly evident. Shortly thereafter, and almost 5
years after she collapsed, Michael started the process of having her feeding
tube removed, and Terri's parents began the crusade to "save" their
daughter's life.
The Florida legislature has attempted to intervene twice before, but has
since developed cold feet and is unwilling to commit political suicide with
Jeb Bush. Many Florida state legislators, and not just Democrats, see the
legislative action as a severe intrusion into individual rights. Republican
leaders on a federal congressional level demanded members return to
Washington to pass specific legislation allowing further review of her
parents case, which was delivered well after midnight to President Bush.
Still, two appeals to a federal court that followed have been rejected on
the grounds court interference would be a violation of Terri's
constitutional rights. A federal judge has issued a strongly worded warning
to the governor of Florida not to take Terri into state custody. The state
legislature has adjourned for Easter holiday. Though the previous three
appeals of the case did not approach justices after going through the
federal circuit, it is unlikely that the Supreme Court will take the case;
most of the justices are strong supporters of state's rights. It appears
that most, if not all, options of further appeal have finally been
exhausted, and there is a strong chance Terri's body will cease to function
in a few days.
The tapes show a woman responding to stimuli
Many legislators have viewed less than ten minutes of selectively provided
footage of home movies and concluded that Terri is "cognizant of her
surroundings" and is "alive". Tom DeLay stooped to an all-time low calling
Florida Judge Greer a "murder and terrorist" and cited such footage as why
he believes Terri is not in a PVS. Only a small handful of legislators have
any medical training. Among those who do are the two republican lawmakers
who sponsored S686- Dave Weldon (from Florida), a specialist in internal
medicine, and Bill Frist, a cardiologist. Yet some medical professionals
have indicated that offering a medical opinion based on viewing a few
minutes of videotape and intentional use of their credentials to manipulate
public opinion amounts to severe medical malpractice, if not outright
unethical conduct. In 1996 a CAT scan showed, according to 2nd District
Federal Court ruling, "severely abnormal structure" and that her cerebral
cortex is "simply gone and replaced with spinal fluid". EEGs were flatline.
Federal judges have ruled, after viewing all of the tapes (there are many,
not just the 5-10 minutes her parents have chosen to share with legislators
or the media) Terri's reactions are only coincidental. Indeed, grunts,
screams, grimaces, and random motions "without purpose" are very
characteristic of PVS. All court-appointed doctors have concluded responses
are reflexive or without purpose. Most of those in support of the opinion
Terri is "alive" have not so much as stepped foot inside her room; of those
that have, few have attempted to interact with her or examine her. Dr.
Hammesfahr, one of the few doctors to have examined her and concluded she
was not in a PVS, has an extremely questionable background. Dr. Cheshire,
who has also declared Terri is not in a PVS, also has an axe to grind.
Neither doctor has addressed the rather clear evidence provided by the CAT
scans and EEGs- nor have Weldon or Frist. Laughably, in a transcript of one
of Frist's speeches to the Senate floor on March 17th, Frist reveals his
ignorance of PVS: "I MENTIONED THAT TERRY'S BROTHER TOLD ME THAT TERRY
LAUGHS, SMILES, AND TRIES TO SPEAK. DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A WOMAN IN PERSISTENT
VEGETATIVE STATE".
In truth, patients in a PVS do show such symptoms: "Patients in VS can
demonstrate behaviors that are associated in non-brain injured individuals
with emotional experience, such as crying, grimacing, smiling, or laughing
(Royal College of Physicians, 2003). When the patient fulfills diagnostic
criteria for VS, these behaviors must reflect subcortical functions and are
not indicative of subjective distress. Not surprisingly, this can be
difficult for relatives to understand, and many families reasonably perceive
these behaviors as signs that the patient is intentionally trying to 'wake
up' (Jacobs et al., 1986)." (emphasis added).
Terri has a chance of recovery
After 5 years in a persistent vegetative state, the medical community is in
nearly universal agreement that any recovery is impossible. It has been 15
years. Clear, indisputable medical evidence proves she is completely
braindead; as Dr. Cranford has pointed out in the Times article cited above,
"Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain [...] Her EEG is flat -
flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain." The reason she
is still is able to breathe and has autonomic/reflexive responses is not
because she is "alive", but because her brain stem is still functioning.
There is no consciousness or memory in the brain stem. The brain cannot
"grow back"; it can 'reroute' and deal with incredible trauma (albeit at
reduced capacity) if enough of the brain is undamaged and still active, but
total brain death is permanent.
Removing the tube would be painful or unusual
We wrongly infer from our own intense suffering when we are hungry that
Terri must feel this hunger. Most doctors will tell you there's little pain
involved and many cognizant patients prefer it. Keep in mind we're also not
brain-dead. Because Terri has no active brain tissue left, her body is
incapable of 'feeling' pain beyond autonomic responses in the brain stem to
stimuli.
It's not moral
Morals certainly enter into the decision, but certainly not your morals, and
it's not your decision. Nor is it up to a judge, the legislature, the
President, or the Pope. Thus far, only the judicial branch has consistently
and clearly recognized it has no right to inject itself into the matter. It
is purely the decision of the legal guardian; in this case, Michael, her
husband. Multiple challenges by Terri's parents asserting he has
self-serving financial motives have failed, as have assertions that he
abused her, or that his dating another woman (and having two children with
her) invalidates his marriage and hence his right as guardian. While it is
doubtful as a Catholic that Terri would approve of his affair and fathering
two children out of wedlock- as a Catholic, she could also abhor divorce. It
could swing both ways, and it's not our decision.
Speaking of the Pope, last year he said, "The evaluation of the probability,
founded on scarce hope of recovery after the vegetative state has lasted for
more than a year, cannot ethically justify the abandonment or the
interruption of minimal care for the patient, including food and water." One
notes the mention of "scarce hope" (in Terri's case, there is zero hope- she
simply has no brain left) and "one year" (she's been in a PVS for 15 years).
To a certain extent, I agree with his statement. I suspect most medical
professionals do as well; one year isn't nearly enough time purely from
statistical perspectives, and human life is too important to say "oh, we
don't want to wait, sorry", yank the plug, and turn out the lights- simply
because it was expensive, emotionally difficult, or what have you. As a
K5'er pointed out, there hasn't been any specific comment by the Pope on
Terri's case, although a Vatican newspaper condemned the tube removal, and
some Vatican officials have strongly condemned judicial decisions to block
the tube removal as well. Interestingly, not everyone in the Catholic church
agrees; for centuries it has been the church's position that extraordinary
measures are not obligatory in prolonging someone's life. This could launch
a whole other article, but instead, I'll just link to the Chicago Tribune
article instead.
The public is outraged!
Most of the surveys, posed in a variety of ways ranging from "if you were
Terri, would you want your feeding tube removed" to "do you support the
judge's decision to deny the appeal" and so on- show a public mostly in
support of the husband's position and against federal legislative/executive
intervention. The percentages drop slightly if you pose these questions to
people who identify themselves as conservative Christians. Look really hard
at a photo of Terri. Place yourself in that bed. Picture yourself being
there for a decade and a half, brain-dead, flailing at random like a fish
out of water because you have no brain left, being kept alive by a feeding
tube. Your face plastered across the newspapers and TV sets of the world. If
that isn't enough to make you run out right now and draw up a living will, I
don't know what is.
I suspect most people who are aware of the facts are outraged that the
parents won't accept that their daughter's brain is completely dead, that
her "reactions" are well documented symptoms of PVS, and the government has
been able to inject itself numerous times into what is easily the most
private matter a family can face. I strongly suspect that public opinion
would swing significantly in favor of the husband if most people simply
understood the facts behind the situation, or had the conviction to accept
that, in the land of the free, their personal or religious beliefs shouldn't
have much bearing on such an intimate matter for another individual.
Terri's husband just wants her money
This argument conjures up images of a bank account flush with millions from
malpractice suits and whatnot. After her initial collapse, her husband sued
for medical malpractice. Yes, he won. The settlement was for approximately
one million dollars, $700,000 of which went to a trust fund for Terri's
treatment. $300,000 went to her husband. The $700,000 is mostly gone thanks
to over a decade of legal challenges brought by her parents and 15 years of
medical care; in 2003 Michael's attorneys said there was about $50,000 left.
Terri (and her husband) have little to no money left; her medical bills are
currently paid for by Medicare, and the hospice covers her room and board.
Michael offered to donate the settlement to charity if her parents agreed to
remove the tube. Her parents refused. A businessman recently offered $1M to
Michael to give up guardianship of his wife. He refused.
Perversions of government
You can thank your lucky stars that our judicial system stepped in to check
the other two branches of the federal government, which have clearly gone
berserk. No matter whether you feel "the tube" needs to be put back in or
not, I am frightened by the vigor with which members of the legislative and
executive branches of our government attempted to force themselves so deeply
into such an intimately personal decision by one individual and one family.
Further, while faced with a variety of issues of critical importance to the
future of millions of Americans, our federal legislators went for a week's
vacation. However, for the purpose of "saving" one brain-dead woman, they
suddenly found time to jump back on planes to DC and work feverishly into
the night. What?
Lessons learned
What is the lesson in all of this for us on a personal level? Write a living
will, and talk to your family about your wishes. Terri's wishes are at best
unclear since her husband did not immediately reveal a conversation he
claimed to have had with her on the subject. If Terri had a living will,
chances are better that her wishes would have been observed, and she would
have lived or died with far more dignity and privacy than she has. If her
living will had indicated a desire to terminate care, her parents would have
possibly been more easily able to come to terms with the death of their
daughter, her family might be able to speak to each other, and she would
have died, with far more dignity and peace, over a decade ago. It's not her
fault, certainly- facing our own mortality can be extremely difficult,
especially if you have a spouse or children. Given the stakes, the effort
seems worth it.
.

User: "Aidan"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	25 Mar 2005 06:48:26 PM

Barbarossa wrote:

I agree that removing the food tube is a cruel way to do end her "life",
but there is _zero_ chance of her ever recovering. Her body has been
trying to shutdown for nigh on 15 years now, and for 15 years her body
has been kept alive artificially... I believe, that if she was meant to
survive, she would have retained some cognitive brain function, and the
ability to absorb sustinence orally.
I think it was her time to go 15 years ago when she first collapsed, and
she's been denied both dignity and peace in not allowing her to pass
over naturally. You may think it's murder to take the food tube away,
but what was it to keep her alive, living like a mollusk, sans dignity,
all these years?
.

User: "Perseid"
Title: Re: Terri's tube, morals, lies, and justice	26 Mar 2005 05:02:35 AM

Aidan <nospam.aidan@linknet.com.au> Spat the Words

Barbarossa wrote: