Tommy The Gay Clown wrote:

<itwill@happen.com> wrote in message
news:1113314773.18cbe9f6d69cd76f047487d836058e56@teranews...

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

Pius XII and John Paul II

Posted: April 11, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Patrick J. Buchanan

2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Now that the mourning for John Paul II has ended and he has been

to rest in St. Peter's, it is time to consider the state of the

he led for 27 years. For, despite his extraordinary life, his

and his critical role in bringing an end to communist rule in

Europe, the condition of the church is grave.

Two years ago, Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis pulled together a slim
book he titled "Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church

Vatican II." As that church council ended 40 years ago this year,

good fruit did it bear? Since 1965:

The number of Catholic priests has fallen from 58,000 to 45,000. By
2020, there will be 31,000 and half will be over 70.

In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained. In 2002, the number was

Some 3,000 parishes are today without priests.

Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians fell from 49,999 to
4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the seminaries

in 1965 have since closed their doors.

The number of Catholic nuns, 180,000 in 1965, has fallen by 60
percent. Their average age is now 68. The number of teaching nuns

fallen 94 percent since the close of Vatican II.

The number of young men studying to be Jesuits has fallen by 90
percent and of those studying to be Christian Brothers by 99

The religious orders seem to be dying out in America.

Almost half the Catholic high schools open in 1965 have closed.

were 4.5 million students in Catholic schools in the mid-1960s.

there is about half that number.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers in 2002 accepted church
teaching on contraception, 53 percent believed a Catholic woman

get an abortion and remain a good Catholic, 65 percent said

have a right to divorce and remarry, and in a New York Times poll,

percent of Catholics ages 18 to 54 said they believed the Holy
Eucharist was but a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Where three in four Catholics attended mass on Sunday in 1958, today
one in four do.

All this happened during the papacies of Paul VI and John Paul II.

let us look back to the 35 years previous to the end of Vatican II,
from 1930-1965, where the dominant pope was Pius XII, the "Catholic
Moment" in America.

In that period, the number of Catholics and priests in America
doubled. The most visible prelate was not Cardinal Law, but Bishop
Fulton J. Sheen, whose TV ratings bested those of Milton Berle, who
cracked, "He has better writers than I do." Parochial schools and
Catholic high schools could not be built fast enough to accommodate
the baby boomers of Catholic parents. Masses were full on Sundays,

there were long lines outside the confessionals on Saturday.


The papacy of Pius XII was a time of explosive growth in the church,
while that of John Paul II coincided with Catholic scandal and
decline. Was the Holy Father responsible for the latter? No, but it

regrettably true that the decline that began at the close of Vatican
II continued unabated through the papacy of John Paul II. Conceding
his sanctity and charisma, he was unable to stop it.

But what was the cause of it? Defenders of Vatican II say that

the council "reforms" they cherish for the decline in vocations and
devotion is a classic case of the logical fallacy, "Post hoc, ergo
propter hoc." After this, therefore, because of this.

Simply because a precipitous Catholic decline began with Vatican II
does not mean Vatican II was the cause, they contend. Perhaps not.

there is no question but that - measuring what the council produced
against what Catholics were promised - it was, in Jimmy Carter's
phrase, "a limited success." Neither Paul VI nor John Paul II was

to arrest the spread of heresy, defections and disbelief that

the Second Vatican Council.

While the church has maintained her numerical strength in America,
this is due only to immigration. As one Chicago priest said, each

he buries a Lithuanian or Polish Catholic - and baptizes two

babies.

What happened to Catholicism is what happened to America. Both

through a moral, social and cultural revolution that has altered the
most basic beliefs of men and women. There has been a

of all values." What was considered scandalous or immoral not long

- promiscuity, abortion, homosexuality - is now considered
progressive. It says everything about our age that, were a judicial
nominee in America to echo the views of John Paul II on human life,
the Democratic Senate would unanimously filibuster his nomination to
death and denounce him as an extremist.

And then there's the fact that people are better educated, and

what people tell them. Following anyone blindly is no longer a

trait - the Dark Ages finally bit the dust.

Woods

Yeah, and look where it got us.

Into a *vastly* better world, dimbulb
Or would you prefer infant mortality,
life expectancy, literacy and standar of living to return to
pre-Enlightenment levels? (though of course, as far as you'r econcerned,

enlightenment was just something that happened to other people

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

tw wrote:

<itwill@happen.com> wrote in message
news:1113314773.18cbe9f6d69cd76f047487d836058e56@teranews...

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

Pius XII and John Paul II

Posted: April 11, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Patrick J. Buchanan

2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Now that the mourning for John Paul II has ended and he has been laid
to rest in St. Peter's, it is time to consider the state of the church
he led for 27 years. For, despite his extraordinary life, his holiness
and his critical role in bringing an end to communist rule in Eastern
Europe, the condition of the church is grave.

Two years ago, Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis pulled together a slim
book he titled "Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since
Vatican II." As that church council ended 40 years ago this year, what
good fruit did it bear? Since 1965:

The number of Catholic priests has fallen from 58,000 to 45,000. By
2020, there will be 31,000 and half will be over 70.

In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained. In 2002, the number was 450.
Some 3,000 parishes are today without priests.

Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians fell from 49,999 to
4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the seminaries open
in 1965 have since closed their doors.

The number of Catholic nuns, 180,000 in 1965, has fallen by 60
percent. Their average age is now 68. The number of teaching nuns has
fallen 94 percent since the close of Vatican II.

The number of young men studying to be Jesuits has fallen by 90
percent and of those studying to be Christian Brothers by 99 percent.
The religious orders seem to be dying out in America.

Almost half the Catholic high schools open in 1965 have closed. There
were 4.5 million students in Catholic schools in the mid-1960s. Today,
there is about half that number.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers in 2002 accepted church
teaching on contraception, 53 percent believed a Catholic woman could
get an abortion and remain a good Catholic, 65 percent said Catholics
have a right to divorce and remarry, and in a New York Times poll, 70
percent of Catholics ages 18 to 54 said they believed the Holy
Eucharist was but a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Where three in four Catholics attended mass on Sunday in 1958, today
one in four do.

All this happened during the papacies of Paul VI and John Paul II. Now
let us look back to the 35 years previous to the end of Vatican II,
from 1930-1965, where the dominant pope was Pius XII, the "Catholic
Moment" in America.

In that period, the number of Catholics and priests in America
doubled. The most visible prelate was not Cardinal Law, but Bishop
Fulton J. Sheen, whose TV ratings bested those of Milton Berle, who
cracked, "He has better writers than I do." Parochial schools and
Catholic high schools could not be built fast enough to accommodate
the baby boomers of Catholic parents. Masses were full on Sundays, and
there were long lines outside the confessionals on Saturday.


The papacy of Pius XII was a time of explosive growth in the church,
while that of John Paul II coincided with Catholic scandal and
decline. Was the Holy Father responsible for the latter? No, but it is
regrettably true that the decline that began at the close of Vatican
II continued unabated through the papacy of John Paul II. Conceding
his sanctity and charisma, he was unable to stop it.

But what was the cause of it? Defenders of Vatican II say that blaming
the council "reforms" they cherish for the decline in vocations and
devotion is a classic case of the logical fallacy, "Post hoc, ergo
propter hoc." After this, therefore, because of this.

Simply because a precipitous Catholic decline began with Vatican II
does not mean Vatican II was the cause, they contend. Perhaps not. But
there is no question but that - measuring what the council produced
against what Catholics were promised - it was, in Jimmy Carter's
phrase, "a limited success." Neither Paul VI nor John Paul II was able
to arrest the spread of heresy, defections and disbelief that followed
the Second Vatican Council.

While the church has maintained her numerical strength in America,
this is due only to immigration. As one Chicago priest said, each week
he buries a Lithuanian or Polish Catholic - and baptizes two Hispanic
babies.

What happened to Catholicism is what happened to America. Both passed
through a moral, social and cultural revolution that has altered the
most basic beliefs of men and women. There has been a "transvaluation
of all values." What was considered scandalous or immoral not long ago
- promiscuity, abortion, homosexuality - is now considered
progressive. It says everything about our age that, were a judicial
nominee in America to echo the views of John Paul II on human life,
the Democratic Senate would unanimously filibuster his nomination to
death and denounce him as an extremist.

And then there's the fact that people are better educated, and question
what people tell them. Following anyone blindly is no longer a
positive
trait - the Dark Ages finally bit the dust.

Woods

Yeah, and look where it got us.

Into a *vastly* better world, dimbulb. Or would you prefer infant
mortality,
life expectancy, literacy and standar of living to return to
pre-Enlightenment levels? (though of course, as far as you'r
econcerned, the
enlightenment was just something that happened to other people)

The blind shall see and the lame shall walk. God has given us the
knowledge that we are now capable of understanding. Certainly, a
portion of the population misuses it, but the blessings far outweigh those.

Woods

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

Pius XII and John Paul II

Posted: April 11, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Patrick J. Buchanan

2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Now that the mourning for John Paul II has ended and he has been laid
to rest in St. Peter's, it is time to consider the state of the church
he led for 27 years. For, despite his extraordinary life, his holiness
and his critical role in bringing an end to communist rule in Eastern
Europe, the condition of the church is grave.

Two years ago, Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis pulled together a slim
book he titled "Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since
Vatican II." As that church council ended 40 years ago this year, what
good fruit did it bear? Since 1965:

The number of Catholic priests has fallen from 58,000 to 45,000. By
2020, there will be 31,000 and half will be over 70.

In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained. In 2002, the number was 450.
Some 3,000 parishes are today without priests.

Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians fell from 49,999 to
4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the seminaries open
in 1965 have since closed their doors.

The number of Catholic nuns, 180,000 in 1965, has fallen by 60
percent. Their average age is now 68. The number of teaching nuns has
fallen 94 percent since the close of Vatican II.

The number of young men studying to be Jesuits has fallen by 90
percent and of those studying to be Christian Brothers by 99 percent.
The religious orders seem to be dying out in America.

Almost half the Catholic high schools open in 1965 have closed. There
were 4.5 million students in Catholic schools in the mid-1960s. Today,
there is about half that number.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers in 2002 accepted church
teaching on contraception, 53 percent believed a Catholic woman could
get an abortion and remain a good Catholic, 65 percent said Catholics
have a right to divorce and remarry, and in a New York Times poll, 70
percent of Catholics ages 18 to 54 said they believed the Holy
Eucharist was but a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Where three in four Catholics attended mass on Sunday in 1958, today
one in four do.

All this happened during the papacies of Paul VI and John Paul II. Now
let us look back to the 35 years previous to the end of Vatican II,
from 1930-1965, where the dominant pope was Pius XII, the "Catholic
Moment" in America.

In that period, the number of Catholics and priests in America
doubled. The most visible prelate was not Cardinal Law, but Bishop
Fulton J. Sheen, whose TV ratings bested those of Milton Berle, who
cracked, "He has better writers than I do." Parochial schools and
Catholic high schools could not be built fast enough to accommodate
the baby boomers of Catholic parents. Masses were full on Sundays, and
there were long lines outside the confessionals on Saturday.


The papacy of Pius XII was a time of explosive growth in the church,
while that of John Paul II coincided with Catholic scandal and
decline. Was the Holy Father responsible for the latter? No, but it is
regrettably true that the decline that began at the close of Vatican
II continued unabated through the papacy of John Paul II. Conceding
his sanctity and charisma, he was unable to stop it.

But what was the cause of it? Defenders of Vatican II say that blaming
the council "reforms" they cherish for the decline in vocations and
devotion is a classic case of the logical fallacy, "Post hoc, ergo
propter hoc." After this, therefore, because of this.

Simply because a precipitous Catholic decline began with Vatican II
does not mean Vatican II was the cause, they contend. Perhaps not. But
there is no question but that - measuring what the council produced
against what Catholics were promised - it was, in Jimmy Carter's
phrase, "a limited success." Neither Paul VI nor John Paul II was able
to arrest the spread of heresy, defections and disbelief that followed
the Second Vatican Council.

While the church has maintained her numerical strength in America,
this is due only to immigration. As one Chicago priest said, each week
he buries a Lithuanian or Polish Catholic - and baptizes two Hispanic
babies.

What happened to Catholicism is what happened to America. Both passed
through a moral, social and cultural revolution that has altered the
most basic beliefs of men and women. There has been a "transvaluation
of all values." What was considered scandalous or immoral not long ago
- promiscuity, abortion, homosexuality - is now considered
progressive. It says everything about our age that, were a judicial
nominee in America to echo the views of John Paul II on human life,
the Democratic Senate would unanimously filibuster his nomination to
death and denounce him as an extremist.

And then there's the fact that people are better educated, and question
what people tell them. Following anyone blindly is no longer a

trait - the Dark Ages finally bit the dust.

Woods

Yeah, and look where it got us.

Away from the whitewashed graves who were keeping God's children out.

Woods

do I need to smash my head

Woods wrote:

Woods wrote:

Pius XII and John Paul II

Posted: April 11, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Patrick J. Buchanan

2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Now that the mourning for John Paul II has ended and he has been laid
to rest in St. Peter's, it is time to consider the state of the church
he led for 27 years. For, despite his extraordinary life, his holiness
and his critical role in bringing an end to communist rule in Eastern
Europe, the condition of the church is grave.

Two years ago, Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis pulled together a slim
book he titled "Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since
Vatican II." As that church council ended 40 years ago this year, what
good fruit did it bear? Since 1965:

The number of Catholic priests has fallen from 58,000 to 45,000. By
2020, there will be 31,000 and half will be over 70.

In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained. In 2002, the number was 450.
Some 3,000 parishes are today without priests.

Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians fell from 49,999 to
4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the seminaries open
in 1965 have since closed their doors.

The number of Catholic nuns, 180,000 in 1965, has fallen by 60
percent. Their average age is now 68. The number of teaching nuns has
fallen 94 percent since the close of Vatican II.

The number of young men studying to be Jesuits has fallen by 90
percent and of those studying to be Christian Brothers by 99 percent.
The religious orders seem to be dying out in America.

Almost half the Catholic high schools open in 1965 have closed. There
were 4.5 million students in Catholic schools in the mid-1960s. Today,
there is about half that number.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers in 2002 accepted church
teaching on contraception, 53 percent believed a Catholic woman could
get an abortion and remain a good Catholic, 65 percent said Catholics
have a right to divorce and remarry, and in a New York Times poll, 70
percent of Catholics ages 18 to 54 said they believed the Holy
Eucharist was but a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Where three in four Catholics attended mass on Sunday in 1958, today
one in four do.

All this happened during the papacies of Paul VI and John Paul II. Now
let us look back to the 35 years previous to the end of Vatican II,

from 1930-1965, where the dominant pope was Pius XII, the "Catholic

Moment" in America.

In that period, the number of Catholics and priests in America
doubled. The most visible prelate was not Cardinal Law, but Bishop
Fulton J. Sheen, whose TV ratings bested those of Milton Berle, who
cracked, "He has better writers than I do." Parochial schools and
Catholic high schools could not be built fast enough to accommodate
the baby boomers of Catholic parents. Masses were full on Sundays, and
there were long lines outside the confessionals on Saturday.


The papacy of Pius XII was a time of explosive growth in the church,
while that of John Paul II coincided with Catholic scandal and
decline. Was the Holy Father responsible for the latter? No, but it is
regrettably true that the decline that began at the close of Vatican
II continued unabated through the papacy of John Paul II. Conceding
his sanctity and charisma, he was unable to stop it.

But what was the cause of it? Defenders of Vatican II say that blaming
the council "reforms" they cherish for the decline in vocations and
devotion is a classic case of the logical fallacy, "Post hoc, ergo
propter hoc." After this, therefore, because of this.

Simply because a precipitous Catholic decline began with Vatican II
does not mean Vatican II was the cause, they contend. Perhaps not. But
there is no question but that – measuring what the council produced
against what Catholics were promised – it was, in Jimmy Carter's
phrase, "a limited success." Neither Paul VI nor John Paul II was able
to arrest the spread of heresy, defections and disbelief that followed
the Second Vatican Council.

While the church has maintained her numerical strength in America,
this is due only to immigration. As one Chicago priest said, each week
he buries a Lithuanian or Polish Catholic – and baptizes two Hispanic
babies.

What happened to Catholicism is what happened to America. Both passed
through a moral, social and cultural revolution that has altered the
most basic beliefs of men and women. There has been a "transvaluation
of all values." What was considered scandalous or immoral not long ago
– promiscuity, abortion, homosexuality – is now considered
progressive. It says everything about our age that, were a judicial
nominee in America to echo the views of John Paul II on human life,
the Democratic Senate would unanimously filibuster his nomination to
death and denounce him as an extremist.

And then there's the fact that people are better educated, and question
what people tell them. Following anyone blindly is no longer a positive
trait - the Dark Ages finally bit the dust.

Woods

Yeah, and look where it got us.

Away from the whitewashed graves who were keeping God's children out.

Woods

And what the hell is that supposed to mean? Or do I need to smash my
head to understand that line of thought?

Tony

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

Pius XII and John Paul II

Posted: April 11, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Patrick J. Buchanan

2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

Now that the mourning for John Paul II has ended and he has been

to rest in St. Peter's, it is time to consider the state of the

he led for 27 years. For, despite his extraordinary life, his

and his critical role in bringing an end to communist rule in

Europe, the condition of the church is grave.

Two years ago, Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis pulled together a

book he titled "Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church

Vatican II." As that church council ended 40 years ago this year,

good fruit did it bear? Since 1965:

The number of Catholic priests has fallen from 58,000 to 45,000.

2020, there will be 31,000 and half will be over 70.

In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained. In 2002, the number was

Some 3,000 parishes are today without priests.

Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians fell from 49,999

4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the seminaries

in 1965 have since closed their doors.

The number of Catholic nuns, 180,000 in 1965, has fallen by 60
percent. Their average age is now 68. The number of teaching nuns

fallen 94 percent since the close of Vatican II.

The number of young men studying to be Jesuits has fallen by 90
percent and of those studying to be Christian Brothers by 99

The religious orders seem to be dying out in America.

Almost half the Catholic high schools open in 1965 have closed.

were 4.5 million students in Catholic schools in the mid-1960s.

there is about half that number.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers in 2002 accepted church
teaching on contraception, 53 percent believed a Catholic woman

get an abortion and remain a good Catholic, 65 percent said

have a right to divorce and remarry, and in a New York Times

percent of Catholics ages 18 to 54 said they believed the Holy
Eucharist was but a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

Where three in four Catholics attended mass on Sunday in 1958,

one in four do.

All this happened during the papacies of Paul VI and John Paul

let us look back to the 35 years previous to the end of Vatican

from 1930-1965, where the dominant pope was Pius XII, the

Moment" in America.

In that period, the number of Catholics and priests in America
doubled. The most visible prelate was not Cardinal Law, but

Fulton J. Sheen, whose TV ratings bested those of Milton Berle,

cracked, "He has better writers than I do." Parochial schools and
Catholic high schools could not be built fast enough to

the baby boomers of Catholic parents. Masses were full on

there were long lines outside the confessionals on Saturday.


The papacy of Pius XII was a time of explosive growth in the

while that of John Paul II coincided with Catholic scandal and
decline. Was the Holy Father responsible for the latter? No, but

regrettably true that the decline that began at the close of

II continued unabated through the papacy of John Paul II.

his sanctity and charisma, he was unable to stop it.

But what was the cause of it? Defenders of Vatican II say that

the council "reforms" they cherish for the decline in vocations

devotion is a classic case of the logical fallacy, "Post hoc,

propter hoc." After this, therefore, because of this.

Simply because a precipitous Catholic decline began with Vatican

does not mean Vatican II was the cause, they contend. Perhaps

there is no question but that - measuring what the council

against what Catholics were promised - it was, in Jimmy

phrase, "a limited success." Neither Paul VI nor John Paul II was

to arrest the spread of heresy, defections and disbelief that

the Second Vatican Council.

While the church has maintained her numerical strength in

this is due only to immigration. As one Chicago priest said, each

he buries a Lithuanian or Polish Catholic - and baptizes two

babies.

What happened to Catholicism is what happened to America. Both

through a moral, social and cultural revolution that has altered

most basic beliefs of men and women. There has been a

of all values." What was considered scandalous or immoral not

- promiscuity, abortion, homosexuality - is now considered
progressive. It says everything about our age that, were a

nominee in America to echo the views of John Paul II on human

the Democratic Senate would unanimously filibuster his nomination

death and denounce him as an extremist.

And then there's the fact that people are better educated, and

what people tell them. Following anyone blindly is no longer a

trait - the Dark Ages finally bit the dust.

Woods

Yeah, and look where it got us.

Away from the whitewashed graves who were keeping God's children

Woods

And what the hell is that supposed to mean? Or do I need to smash my
head to understand that line of thought?

Tony