the passion of christ

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Topic:	Science > Prophecies-Of-Nostradamus
User:	"jha_amin"
Date:	24 Feb 2004 02:24:27 PM
Object:	the passion of christ

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema /
NAILED
by DAVID DENBY
Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ."
Issue of 2004-03-01
Posted 2004-02-23
In "The Passion of the Christ," Mel Gibson shows little interest in
celebrating the electric charge of hope and redemption that Jesus
Christ brought into the world.
<snip>
As a viewer, I am equally free to say that the movie Gibson has made
from his personal obsessions is a sickening death trip, a grimly
unilluminating procession of treachery, beatings, blood, and agony—and
to say so without indulging in "anti-Christian sentiment" (Gibson's
term for what his critics are spreading). For two hours, with only an
occasional pause or gentle flashback, we watch, stupefied, as a
handsome, strapping, at times half-naked young man (James Caviezel) is
slowly tortured to death. Gibson is so thoroughly fixated on the
scourging and crushing of Christ, and so meagrely involved in the
spiritual meanings of the final hours, that he falls in danger of
altering Jesus' message of love into one of hate.
And against whom will the audience direct its hate? As Gibson was
completing the film, some historians, theologians, and clergymen
accused him of emphasizing the discredited charge that it was the
ancient Jews who were primarily responsible for killing Jesus, a claim
that has served as the traditional justification for the persecution
of the Jews in Europe for nearly two millennia. The critics turn out
to have been right. Gibson is guilty of some serious mischief in his
handling of these issues. But he may have also committed an aggression
against Christian believers. The movie has been hailed as a religious
experience by various Catholic and Protestant groups, some of whom,
with an ungodly eye to the commercial realities of film distribution,
have prepurchased blocks of tickets or rented theatres to insure "The
Passion" a healthy opening weekend's business. But how, I wonder, will
people become better Christians if they are filled with the guilt,
anguish, or loathing that this movie may create in their souls?
<snip>
For two hours, with only an occasional pause or gentle flashback, we
watch, stupefied, as a handsome, strapping, at times half-naked young
man (James Caviezel) is slowly tortured to death. Gibson is so
thoroughly fixated on the scourging and crushing of Christ, and so
meagrely involved in the spiritual meanings of the final hours, that
he falls in danger of altering Jesus' message of love into one of
hate.
<snip>
What is most depressing about "The Passion" is the thought that people
will take their children to see it. Jesus said, "Suffer the little
children to come unto me," not "Let the little children watch me
suffer." How will parents deal with the pain, terror, and anger that
children will doubtless feel as they watch a man flayed and pierced
until dead? The despair of the movie is hard to shrug off, and
Gibson's timing couldn't be more unfortunate: another dose of
death-haunted religious fanaticism is the last thing we need.
.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 05:16:02 AM

"Gerald" <Gerald_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:c1p2j10kgb@drn.newsguy.com...

In article <bJadneS6PuAFB6PdRVn-hQ@locallink.net>, John F Lemke says...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

For America..................

Ezekiel 7:25-27 (NLT)
Terror and trembling will overcome my people. They will look for

peace

but will not find it. [26] Calamity will follow calamity; rumor will

rumor. They will look in vain for a vision from the prophets. They will
receive no teaching from the priests and no counsel from the leaders.

[27]

The king and the prince will stand helpless, weeping in despair, and the
people's hands will tremble with fear. I will bring against them the evil
they have done to others, and they will receive the punishment they so
richly deserve. Then they will know that I am the Lord!"

Good post, John. The reference certainly describes America today. I

still

haven't seen the Passion of the Christ but plan to later. Many complaints

about

it i've read are that Gibson leaves out the pleasant aspects of

Christianity.
I know there's a valid purpose for the violence in the film. I think the
movie's a great thing and that it'll do a lot of 1st world, safe and wealthy
Chrisitans a lot of good. I'm probably going to take Mel's advice that if
the violence bothers you, don't go. Unless my son wants to go see it, I'll
more than likely stay home.
I think for most American Christians Christianity has been much too
pleasant. They seem to be more comfort and prosperity oriented than cross
oriented.

Talk about missing out on reality vis a vis the condition of man.

Amen to that.

But there is
not much happy talk in what you quote. As Crumb said, keep on trucking.

Gravity. Our actions leading us to step off the edge of a tall building.
This Western mind set we have, Gerald, is like Everest, it seems. It fills
our vision. This massive structure that has given us all this identity, this
confidence, this arrogance, this place to stand. God is going to reach out
and just tap it with a hammer and it's all going to shatter and fall. And
it's not just the physical shattering that's going to take place. It's also
the psycho/spiritual shattering that will be involved. The World Trade
Center was a symbol. We'll end up standing on, trucking with, what we've
invested our hearts in.
Best regards.....................
.

User: "cesar"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 12:06:01 AM

I haven't seen the movie yet but from what I know, the movie is not about
proselytising. Gibson said in an interview he felt compelled to make it
when the book the Dolores Passion literally fell into his hands. The movie
is not about the Holy Grail of Christianity at all, though Christians would
love think that. Jesus Christ is not their hero. He was their victim. The
people to whom the messiah was promised for 4,000 years killed the son of
God when he duly fulfilled the prophecy. The 'people' could been any
people. It could have been the Chinese or the Zulus had they been the one
to whom a messiah was promised and they would have done the same thing the
Jews did. Because people are people and collectively, people are wicked.
People find it much easier to worship a false God than the true God because
the false God tells them what they want to hear. Worshipping the true God
is too difficult because it takes too much sacrifice.
We are all seduced by Satan, the false God, by his myriad of attractions and
distractions.
No. The movie is not about Christianity and all its trimmings. It is about
humanity having tortured and killed the Son of God and there is going to be
Hell to pay. You kill a man unjustly and the sentence is usually the death
penalty. We kill the Son of God yet you think we should get away with it?
The visual depiction in detail is Exhibit 'A' in the indictment of all
sinners collectively because we have not yet repented for the Crucifixion of
Christ. Exhibit 'B' will be the final war that Christians and Jews will be
waging against Islam, in the name of Christ or in the name of the Messiah,
calling it a 'Crusade'. And then the Judgment will be rendered. God will
destroy the Judeo-Christian civilization and the prophecy of the bible will
be fulfilled.
So, as you watch the movie and weep, think of yourselves as the accused and
the prosecutor is showing Exhibit 'A', the re-enactment of the 2,000 year
old crime scene in all its gory, bloody detail. I know I will. But I will
make sure that I do not find myself in the box of the accused when Exhibit
'B' is shown. If you're part of Exhibit 'A', there is a chance for
redemption but if you're part of Exhibit 'B', you are condemned, according
to my understanding of the Book of Revelation.
cesar
"Gerald" <Gerald_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:c1p2j10kgb@drn.newsguy.com...

In article <bJadneS6PuAFB6PdRVn-hQ@locallink.net>, John F Lemke says...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

For America..................

Ezekiel 7:25-27 (NLT)
Terror and trembling will overcome my people. They will look for

peace

but will not find it. [26] Calamity will follow calamity; rumor will

rumor. They will look in vain for a vision from the prophets. They will
receive no teaching from the priests and no counsel from the leaders.

[27]

Good post, John. The reference certainly describes America today. I

still

haven't seen the Passion of the Christ but plan to later. Many complaints

about

it i've read are that Gibson leaves out the pleasant aspects of

Christianity.

Talk about missing out on reality vis a vis the condition of man. But

there is

not much happy talk in what you quote. As Crumb said, keep on trucking.

Gerald

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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.

User: "Never anonymous Bud"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 04:11:37 AM

While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', "cesar" <cesar@no.email> scribbled:

The people to whom the messiah was promised for 4,000 years killed the son of
God when he duly fulfilled the prophecy.

Jesus never fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah.
And if he HAD fulfilled it, he HAD to die in the end anyway.
To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity....
.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 05:48:22 AM

"Never anonymous Bud" <newskat@katxyzkave.net> wrote in message
news:e4q040d7v5vp6ej1fdfd9rv0gnusvbip8q@4ax.com...

While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', "cesar" <cesar@no.email>

scribbled:

The people to whom the messiah was promised for 4,000 years killed the

son of

God when he duly fulfilled the prophecy.

Jesus never fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah.

And if he HAD fulfilled it, he HAD to die in the end anyway.

Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah
1. His visage was marred more than that of any other man (Isaiah 52:14).
2. His form was marred more than any other.
3. He suffered unbelief of people (Isaiah 53:1).
4. He suffered human limitations (Isaiah 53:2).
5. He had no form (beauty).
6. He had no comeliness (glory).
7. People had no desire for Him.
8. He was despised by people (Isaiah 53:9).
9. He was rejected by people.
10. He suffered many sorrows.
11. He was acquainted with grief (sickness).
12. People hid their faces from Him.
13. He was not esteemed by people.
14. He bore griefs (sicknesses) of others (Isaiah 53:4).
15. He carried sorrows (pains) of people.
16. People regarded Him as stricken.
17. He was smitten by God.
18. He was afflicted by God.
19. He was wounded for our sins (Isaiah 53:5).
20. He was bruised for our iniquities.
21. He was chastised for our peace.
22. He was striped for our healing.
23. He suffered over the going astray of His own creation (Isaiah 53:6).
24. He suffered over seeing all people going their own way in selfishness.
25. He bore sins of all people (Isaiah 53:6,10-12).
26. He suffered oppression by people (Isaiah 53:7).
27. He was afflicted by people.
28. He was arrested by people (Isaiah 53:8).
29. Justice was taken from Him.
30. He lived among wicked people.
31. He was violently taken away by men.
32. He was stricken for sins of people.
33. He was bruised by men (Isaiah 53:10).
34. He took sicknesses of people.
35. He travailed in soul (Isaiah 53:11).
36. He was classed with criminals (Isaiah 53:12).
1. God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began (Acts
3:21; Hebrews 1:1-3; 1 Peter 1:10-12). God Himself began the long list of
prophecies of the coming Redeemer by promising that the Seed of the Woman
would crush the serpent's head and restore man's dominion (Genesis 3:15-16).
Abraham and Isaac spoke of Him coming through their seed (Genesis 12:1-3;
Genesis 15:4-6; Genesis 17:4-8,19-21; Genesis 21:12; Genesis 26:4). Jacob
said He would come from Judah (Genesis 49:10). Moses predicted Him as a
prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15-19). David referred to Him as coming from
his seed (2 Samuel 7). Isaiah said He would be born of a virgin in Judah of
the house of David (Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6-7), and pictured His rejection
and sufferings (Isaiah 52:13-53:12). Others also made reports of His coming,
so Israel had no excuse for their unbelief when He did come.
2. Miracles confirming the report. The report was not only predicted and
then literally fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, but there were also miracles
confirming to Israel the fact that He was the true Messiah sent by God
(Isaiah 11:1-2; Isaiah 42:1-6; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:1-6; Luke 4:16-18;
Acts 2:22; Acts 10:38). The arm of the Lord is figurative of His power,
which Isaiah predicted would be revealed along with the report (John
5:20,36; John 10:25-38; John 12:38-40; John 14:10-12; John 15:24).
I. Old Testament Prophecies in the New Testament
Those Concerning Christ:
1. Birth (Matthew 1:23; Matthew 2:6; John 7:42)
2. Called out of Egypt (Matthew 2:15)
3. The incarnation (Hebrews 2:5-8; Hebrews 10:5-9)
4. Sonship (Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Hebrews 5:5)
5. Hating sin (Hebrews 1:9)
6. Christ's trust in God (Hebrews 2:13)
7. Called a Nazarene (Matthew 2:23)
8. Spirit baptism (Luke 4:16-21)
9. Ministry (Matthew 12:17-21; John 6:45; Acts 3:22-23; Acts 7:37; Hebrews
10:9)
10. Speaking parables (Matthew 13:35; Luke 8:10)
11. Purification of the temple (Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:15; Luke 19:45; John
2:13-16)
12. Zeal (John 2:17)
13. Light of the world (Matthew 4:14-16; Acts 13:47; Acts 26:23)
14. Triumphal entry (Matthew 21:5,9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13,15)
15. Rejection by Israel (Matthew 21:42; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11,25-28)
16. Betrayal (Matthew 27:9-10; John 13:18)
17. Trial of Jesus (Acts 8:32)
18. Reproach (Romans 15:3)
19. Smitten shepherd; scattered sheep (Matthew 26:31 Mark 14:27)
20. Suffering of Christ (Acts 26:22-23)
21. Crucifixion (Matthew 27:34,35,43,46; Mark 15:34,36; Galatians 3:13)
22. Numbered with the transgressors (Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37)
23. Casting lots at the cross (John 19:24)
24. Thirsting (John 19:28)
25. Bones not broken (John 19:36)
26. Piercing (John 19:37)
27. Resurrection (Acts 2:25-27,30-31; Acts 13:34-35; Acts 26:23)
28. Exaltation (Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42-43; Acts 2:34; Hebrews
1:13)
29. God's salvation (Acts 13:47)
30. Chief cornerstone (1 Peter 2:6-7)
31. Rock of offence (1 Peter 2:8)
32. Eternal kingship (Hebrews 1:8)
33. Unchangeableness (Hebrews 1:10-12)
34. Unity with believers (Hebrews 2:12-13)
35. Eternal priesthood (Hebrews 5:6,10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:17,21)
36. Leading captivity captive (Ephes. 4:8)
.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	02 Mar 2004 10:01:08 PM

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:va2dnQqOm4xwHd3dRVn-gg@locallink.net...

Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah

Besides the fact that you're not addressing Buds original comments....
.... 'thirty-sixfold suffering'? Which religion is this from?
How well do you know your religion?
Here's a few questions;
Was jesus jewish?
Are christians jewish?
Why was jesus taken at night from the garden?
Was declaring ones-self the Messiah Blasphemy according to Jewish law?
What was the Jewish penalty for Blasphemy?
Was Pontius Pilate really a nice guy who didn't want jesus to die?
Was Crucifixion a specifically Roman Political punishment?
What was the Jewish revolt of 66-74AD all about?
Did the Romans level the Second Temple in the year 70?
Were all four Gospels written between 70 and 110AD
Isn't it most notably Mathew who blames the Jews for the death of jesus?
What are "Fourth-century gentile Christians"?
Who was Constantine, and the import of 312AD?
Who was St. Anselm, and why was he important?
Who wrote "Why God Became Man" in the 11th century?
Who was Pope Urban II, and what were the Crusades about?
Who was Pope Innocent III? Why is he important?
Who was Martin Luther and what was the Reformation of 16th century?
Are you familiar with "The quest for the historical jesus"?
My questions go on and on... and don't EVEN get me started on what PAUL was
all about!!!
:[
.

User: "Gerald"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 09:34:52 PM

In article <va2dnQqOm4xwHd3dRVn-gg@locallink.net>, John F Lemke says...

"Never anonymous Bud" <newskat@katxyzkave.net> wrote in message
news:e4q040d7v5vp6ej1fdfd9rv0gnusvbip8q@4ax.com...

While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', "cesar" <cesar@no.email>

scribbled:

The people to whom the messiah was promised for 4,000 years killed the

son of

God when he duly fulfilled the prophecy.

Jesus never fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah.

And if he HAD fulfilled it, he HAD to die in the end anyway.

Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah
1. His visage was marred more than that of any other man (Isaiah 52:14).
2. His form was marred more than any other.
3. He suffered unbelief of people (Isaiah 53:1).
4. He suffered human limitations (Isaiah 53:2).
5. He had no form (beauty).
6. He had no comeliness (glory).
7. People had no desire for Him.
8. He was despised by people (Isaiah 53:9).
9. He was rejected by people.
10. He suffered many sorrows.
11. He was acquainted with grief (sickness).
12. People hid their faces from Him.
13. He was not esteemed by people.
14. He bore griefs (sicknesses) of others (Isaiah 53:4).
15. He carried sorrows (pains) of people.
16. People regarded Him as stricken.
17. He was smitten by God.
18. He was afflicted by God.
19. He was wounded for our sins (Isaiah 53:5).
20. He was bruised for our iniquities.
21. He was chastised for our peace.
22. He was striped for our healing.
23. He suffered over the going astray of His own creation (Isaiah 53:6).
24. He suffered over seeing all people going their own way in selfishness.
25. He bore sins of all people (Isaiah 53:6,10-12).
26. He suffered oppression by people (Isaiah 53:7).
27. He was afflicted by people.
28. He was arrested by people (Isaiah 53:8).
29. Justice was taken from Him.
30. He lived among wicked people.
31. He was violently taken away by men.
32. He was stricken for sins of people.
33. He was bruised by men (Isaiah 53:10).
34. He took sicknesses of people.
35. He travailed in soul (Isaiah 53:11).
36. He was classed with criminals (Isaiah 53:12).

1. God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began (Acts
3:21; Hebrews 1:1-3; 1 Peter 1:10-12). God Himself began the long list of
prophecies of the coming Redeemer by promising that the Seed of the Woman
would crush the serpent's head and restore man's dominion (Genesis 3:15-16).
Abraham and Isaac spoke of Him coming through their seed (Genesis 12:1-3;
Genesis 15:4-6; Genesis 17:4-8,19-21; Genesis 21:12; Genesis 26:4). Jacob
said He would come from Judah (Genesis 49:10). Moses predicted Him as a
prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15-19). David referred to Him as coming from
his seed (2 Samuel 7). Isaiah said He would be born of a virgin in Judah of
the house of David (Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6-7), and pictured His rejection
and sufferings (Isaiah 52:13-53:12). Others also made reports of His coming,
so Israel had no excuse for their unbelief when He did come.
2. Miracles confirming the report. The report was not only predicted and
then literally fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, but there were also miracles
confirming to Israel the fact that He was the true Messiah sent by God
(Isaiah 11:1-2; Isaiah 42:1-6; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:1-6; Luke 4:16-18;
Acts 2:22; Acts 10:38). The arm of the Lord is figurative of His power,
which Isaiah predicted would be revealed along with the report (John
5:20,36; John 10:25-38; John 12:38-40; John 14:10-12; John 15:24).

I. Old Testament Prophecies in the New Testament
Those Concerning Christ:
1. Birth (Matthew 1:23; Matthew 2:6; John 7:42)
2. Called out of Egypt (Matthew 2:15)
3. The incarnation (Hebrews 2:5-8; Hebrews 10:5-9)
4. Sonship (Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Hebrews 5:5)
5. Hating sin (Hebrews 1:9)
6. Christ's trust in God (Hebrews 2:13)
7. Called a Nazarene (Matthew 2:23)
8. Spirit baptism (Luke 4:16-21)
9. Ministry (Matthew 12:17-21; John 6:45; Acts 3:22-23; Acts 7:37; Hebrews
10:9)
10. Speaking parables (Matthew 13:35; Luke 8:10)
11. Purification of the temple (Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:15; Luke 19:45; John
2:13-16)
12. Zeal (John 2:17)
13. Light of the world (Matthew 4:14-16; Acts 13:47; Acts 26:23)
14. Triumphal entry (Matthew 21:5,9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13,15)
15. Rejection by Israel (Matthew 21:42; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11,25-28)
16. Betrayal (Matthew 27:9-10; John 13:18)
17. Trial of Jesus (Acts 8:32)
18. Reproach (Romans 15:3)
19. Smitten shepherd; scattered sheep (Matthew 26:31 Mark 14:27)
20. Suffering of Christ (Acts 26:22-23)
21. Crucifixion (Matthew 27:34,35,43,46; Mark 15:34,36; Galatians 3:13)
22. Numbered with the transgressors (Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37)
23. Casting lots at the cross (John 19:24)
24. Thirsting (John 19:28)
25. Bones not broken (John 19:36)
26. Piercing (John 19:37)
27. Resurrection (Acts 2:25-27,30-31; Acts 13:34-35; Acts 26:23)
28. Exaltation (Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42-43; Acts 2:34; Hebrews
1:13)
29. God's salvation (Acts 13:47)
30. Chief cornerstone (1 Peter 2:6-7)
31. Rock of offence (1 Peter 2:8)
32. Eternal kingship (Hebrews 1:8)
33. Unchangeableness (Hebrews 1:10-12)
34. Unity with believers (Hebrews 2:12-13)
35. Eternal priesthood (Hebrews 5:6,10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:17,21)
36. Leading captivity captive (Ephes. 4:8)

Magnificent post, John. I seldom copy a post for storage but this one is a
keeper.
Gerald
.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	29 Feb 2004 06:47:18 AM

"Gerald" <Gerald_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:c1rmks02vea@drn.newsguy.com...

Magnificent post, John. I seldom copy a post for storage but this one is

keeper.

Gerald

Gotta give credit to the Dake's Bible on that. It's cut and pasted from the
interactive cd rom version.
A Dake's Bible even with it's imperfections is a wonder to behold. The most
thoroughly referenced bible I've ever seen. I wouldn't be without one.
You can check it all out here: http://www.dake.com/
.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	02 Mar 2004 10:17:29 PM

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:muidnQSGFL7Zfdzd4p2dnA@locallink.net...

Gotta give credit to the Dake's Bible on that. It's cut and pasted from

the

interactive cd rom version.
A Dake's Bible even with it's imperfections is a wonder to behold. The

most

thoroughly referenced bible I've ever seen. I wouldn't be without one.
You can check it all out here: http://www.dake.com/

Ah, should have known...
If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.
"A bible popular with the Charismatic apostasy. Highly questionable
un-Christian bent to the study notes. Not recommended."
http://biblenotes.homestead.com/files/bnD.htm
Specific problems:
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.html
.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	03 Mar 2004 05:54:27 AM

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:t%c1c.16656$yZ1.13453@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:muidnQSGFL7Zfdzd4p2dnA@locallink.net...

Gotta give credit to the Dake's Bible on that. It's cut and pasted from

the

interactive cd rom version.
A Dake's Bible even with it's imperfections is a wonder to behold. The

most

thoroughly referenced bible I've ever seen. I wouldn't be without one.
You can check it all out here: http://www.dake.com/

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

That's a lot to assume simply from someone using a bible as a reference
tool. You've made too large a leap here.
I'll repost the scriptures in the original post. You give me a detailed
response as to the specific error involved.
Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah
1. His visage was marred more than that of any other man (Isaiah 52:14).
2. His form was marred more than any other.
3. He suffered unbelief of people (Isaiah 53:1).
4. He suffered human limitations (Isaiah 53:2).
5. He had no form (beauty).
6. He had no comeliness (glory).
7. People had no desire for Him.
8. He was despised by people (Isaiah 53:9).
9. He was rejected by people.
10. He suffered many sorrows.
11. He was acquainted with grief (sickness).
12. People hid their faces from Him.
13. He was not esteemed by people.
14. He bore griefs (sicknesses) of others (Isaiah 53:4).
15. He carried sorrows (pains) of people.
16. People regarded Him as stricken.
17. He was smitten by God.
18. He was afflicted by God.
19. He was wounded for our sins (Isaiah 53:5).
20. He was bruised for our iniquities.
21. He was chastised for our peace.
22. He was striped for our healing.
23. He suffered over the going astray of His own creation (Isaiah 53:6).
24. He suffered over seeing all people going their own way in selfishness.
25. He bore sins of all people (Isaiah 53:6,10-12).
26. He suffered oppression by people (Isaiah 53:7).
27. He was afflicted by people.
28. He was arrested by people (Isaiah 53:8).
29. Justice was taken from Him.
30. He lived among wicked people.
31. He was violently taken away by men.
32. He was stricken for sins of people.
33. He was bruised by men (Isaiah 53:10).
34. He took sicknesses of people.
35. He travailed in soul (Isaiah 53:11).
36. He was classed with criminals (Isaiah 53:12).
1. God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began (Acts
3:21; Hebrews 1:1-3; 1 Peter 1:10-12). God Himself began the long list of
prophecies of the coming Redeemer by promising that the Seed of the Woman
would crush the serpent's head and restore man's dominion (Genesis 3:15-16).
Abraham and Isaac spoke of Him coming through their seed (Genesis 12:1-3;
Genesis 15:4-6; Genesis 17:4-8,19-21; Genesis 21:12; Genesis 26:4). Jacob
said He would come from Judah (Genesis 49:10). Moses predicted Him as a
prophet like himself (Deut. 18:15-19). David referred to Him as coming from
his seed (2 Samuel 7). Isaiah said He would be born of a virgin in Judah of
the house of David (Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6-7), and pictured His rejection
and sufferings (Isaiah 52:13-53:12). Others also made reports of His coming,
so Israel had no excuse for their unbelief when He did come.
2. Miracles confirming the report. The report was not only predicted and
then literally fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, but there were also miracles
confirming to Israel the fact that He was the true Messiah sent by God
(Isaiah 11:1-2; Isaiah 42:1-6; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:1-6; Luke 4:16-18;
Acts 2:22; Acts 10:38). The arm of the Lord is figurative of His power,
which Isaiah predicted would be revealed along with the report (John
5:20,36; John 10:25-38; John 12:38-40; John 14:10-12; John 15:24).
I. Old Testament Prophecies in the New Testament
Those Concerning Christ:
1. Birth (Matthew 1:23; Matthew 2:6; John 7:42)
2. Called out of Egypt (Matthew 2:15)
3. The incarnation (Hebrews 2:5-8; Hebrews 10:5-9)
4. Sonship (Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Hebrews 5:5)
5. Hating sin (Hebrews 1:9)
6. Christ's trust in God (Hebrews 2:13)
7. Called a Nazarene (Matthew 2:23)
8. Spirit baptism (Luke 4:16-21)
9. Ministry (Matthew 12:17-21; John 6:45; Acts 3:22-23; Acts 7:37; Hebrews
10:9)
10. Speaking parables (Matthew 13:35; Luke 8:10)
11. Purification of the temple (Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:15; Luke 19:45; John
2:13-16)
12. Zeal (John 2:17)
13. Light of the world (Matthew 4:14-16; Acts 13:47; Acts 26:23)
14. Triumphal entry (Matthew 21:5,9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13,15)
15. Rejection by Israel (Matthew 21:42; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11,25-28)
16. Betrayal (Matthew 27:9-10; John 13:18)
17. Trial of Jesus (Acts 8:32)
18. Reproach (Romans 15:3)
19. Smitten shepherd; scattered sheep (Matthew 26:31 Mark 14:27)
20. Suffering of Christ (Acts 26:22-23)
21. Crucifixion (Matthew 27:34,35,43,46; Mark 15:34,36; Galatians 3:13)
22. Numbered with the transgressors (Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37)
23. Casting lots at the cross (John 19:24)
24. Thirsting (John 19:28)
25. Bones not broken (John 19:36)
26. Piercing (John 19:37)
27. Resurrection (Acts 2:25-27,30-31; Acts 13:34-35; Acts 26:23)
28. Exaltation (Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42-43; Acts 2:34; Hebrews
1:13)
29. God's salvation (Acts 13:47)
30. Chief cornerstone (1 Peter 2:6-7)
31. Rock of offence (1 Peter 2:8)
32. Eternal kingship (Hebrews 1:8)
33. Unchangeableness (Hebrews 1:10-12)
34. Unity with believers (Hebrews 2:12-13)
35. Eternal priesthood (Hebrews 5:6,10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:17,21)
36. Leading captivity captive (Ephes. 4:8)
.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	03 Mar 2004 09:52:46 PM

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

That's a lot to assume simply from someone using a bible as a reference
tool. You've made too large a leap here.

I don't think so... you can call it a bible if you want, but you've quoted a
VERY biased CROSS-REFERENCE listing... and that particular book has been
banned by many (organized religions) for use and study, because of its bias
and hatred.

I'll repost the scriptures in the original post. You give me a detailed
response as to the specific error involved.

Be happy to!
But first, kindly post the scripture... seems to be missing from most of the
post... seems more populated with 'oppinion' than scripture.
I've edited the list to show the missing scriptures...
Once we get the full "Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah" WITH
scriptures... then I'd be happy to revisit the problem with Dake's Bible
list of 'Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah'.
In the meantime... what EXACTLY does the following mean...

Thirty-sixfold Suffering of Messiah

You seemed to skip that part of my post.
Where did that come from? Is that a doctrine of any Church?
Sounds really official and important... so it MUST be from the bible
somewhere, right? I mean, who uses 'thirty-six fold' when discussing
numbers? What's the 'fold' part of that mean?
WHY is thirty-sixfold important? Was it prophesized that it would be
thirty-sixfold?
Ok, while we're waiting... let's get that Missing Scritpture list going, eh?

2. His form was marred more than any other.

The scripture? That's 1 that appears to be missing.

5. He had no form (beauty).

The scripture? That's 2 that appears to be missing.

6. He had no comeliness (glory).

The scripture? That's 3 that appears to be missing.

7. People had no desire for Him.

The scripture? That's 4 that appears to be missing.

9. He was rejected by people.

The scripture? That's 5 that appears to be missing.

10. He suffered many sorrows.

The scripture? That's 6 that appears to be missing.

11. He was acquainted with grief (sickness).

The scripture? That's 7 that appears to be missing.

12. People hid their faces from Him.

The scripture? That's 8 that appears to be missing.

13. He was not esteemed by people.

The scripture? That's 9 that appears to be missing.

15. He carried sorrows (pains) of people.

The scripture? That's 10 that appears to be missing.

16. People regarded Him as stricken.

The scripture? That's 11 that appears to be missing.

17. He was smitten by God.

The scripture? That's 12 that appears to be missing.

18. He was afflicted by God.

The scripture? That's 13 that appears to be missing.

20. He was bruised for our iniquities.

The scripture? That's 14 that appears to be missing.

21. He was chastised for our peace.

The scripture? That's 15 that appears to be missing.

22. He was striped for our healing.

The scripture? That's 16 that appears to be missing.

24. He suffered over seeing all people going their own way in selfishness.

The scripture? That's 17 that appears to be missing.

27. He was afflicted by people.

The scripture? That's 18 that appears to be missing.

29. Justice was taken from Him.

The scripture? That's 19 that appears to be missing.

30. He lived among wicked people.

The scripture? That's 20 that appears to be missing.

31. He was violently taken away by men.

The scripture? That's 21 that appears to be missing.

32. He was stricken for sins of people.

The scripture? That's 22 that appears to be missing.

34. He took sicknesses of people.

The scripture? That's 23 that appears to be missing.

36. He was classed with criminals (Isaiah 53:12).

Hmmm.... 36-23= 13.
So about a third 'may' be about scripture, and the other 2/3 is oppinion
without any reference?
Do you think we fools?
Not much scripture here apparently.
So that kinda begs the question;
"What, Sir... exactly ARE your motives here?"
Mark
(Anxiously awaiting your response...)
.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	03 Mar 2004 10:04:00 PM

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iKx1c.20550$aT1.13287@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

That's a lot to assume simply from someone using a bible as a reference
tool. You've made too large a leap here.

I don't think so...

Listen, Mark, I'm going to make this as simple as possible. I'm not going
to run this into the ground and make you look like a complete fool.
Read the scripture references I gave along with a King James Version of the
Bible, reference by reference, verse by verse.
Our conversation is closed.
.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	04 Mar 2004 05:53:14 AM

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:8cSdnTYsp8QANtvdRVn-hw@locallink.net...

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iKx1c.20550$aT1.13287@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

That's a lot to assume simply from someone using a bible as a

reference

tool. You've made too large a leap here.

I don't think so...

Listen, Mark, I'm going to make this as simple as possible. I'm not going
to run this into the ground and make you look like a complete fool.

Your compassion is appreciated.

Read the scripture references I gave along with a King James Version of

the

Bible, reference by reference, verse by verse.

Our conversation is closed.

A pity... we might have learned something.
.

User: "naming el"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	04 Mar 2004 09:54:02 AM

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<KME1c.18624$yZ1.15392@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:8cSdnTYsp8QANtvdRVn-hw@locallink.net...

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iKx1c.20550$aT1.13287@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

Dammn!....that has to be the quickest prophecy fulfillment i have ever heard.
;)

That's a lot to assume simply from someone using a bible as a

reference

tool. You've made too large a leap here.

I don't think so...

Listen, Mark, I'm going to make this as simple as possible. I'm not going
to run this into the ground and make you look like a complete fool.

Your compassion is appreciated.

Read the scripture references I gave along with a King James Version of

the

Bible, reference by reference, verse by verse.

Our conversation is closed.

A pity... we might have learned something.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	06 Mar 2004 05:46:12 AM

"naming el" <naming_el@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61cc8295.0403040754.59007678@posting.google.com...

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:<KME1c.18624$yZ1.15392@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:8cSdnTYsp8QANtvdRVn-hw@locallink.net...

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iKx1c.20550$aT1.13287@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant

and

unteachable.

Dammn!....that has to be the quickest prophecy fulfillment i have ever

heard.

;)

Spooky, eh?
;)

That's a lot to assume simply from someone using a bible as a

reference

tool. You've made too large a leap here.

I don't think so...

Listen, Mark, I'm going to make this as simple as possible. I'm not

going

to run this into the ground and make you look like a complete fool.

Your compassion is appreciated.

Read the scripture references I gave along with a King James Version

the

Bible, reference by reference, verse by verse.

Our conversation is closed.

A pity... we might have learned something.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	04 Mar 2004 06:33:31 AM

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iKx1c.20550$aT1.13287@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Our conversation is closed.

A pity... we might have learned something.

God bless you with a long and happy life, Mark. :-) Nothing but light,
love and peace for you.
.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	05 Mar 2004 09:19:48 PM

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:SoKdnS8SH7uXvtrdRVn-tw@locallink.net...

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iKx1c.20550$aT1.13287@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:dfmdnYV-EJj9VdjdRVn-hg@locallink.net...

Our conversation is closed.

A pity... we might have learned something.

God bless you with a long and happy life, Mark. :-)

Thank you... and to you and yours.
And may we live in interesting times....
;)

Nothing but light,
love and peace for you.

.... and for us all, John.... ALL of us.
.

User: " John F Lemke"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	05 Mar 2004 11:26:26 PM

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:orb2c.23640$aT1.5783@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:SoKdnS8SH7uXvtrdRVn-tw@locallink.net...

God bless you with a long and happy life, Mark. :-)

Thank you... and to you and yours.
And may we live in interesting times....
;)

I think that's guaranteed, my friend. :-)

Nothing but light,
love and peace for you.

... and for us all, John.... ALL of us.

For sure.
Catch you on the "next" thread.
.

User: "naming el"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	03 Mar 2004 12:53:34 PM

"Mark" <mburggra1@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<t%c1c.16656$yZ1.13453@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...

" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:muidnQSGFL7Zfdzd4p2dnA@locallink.net...

Gotta give credit to the Dake's Bible on that. It's cut and pasted from

the

interactive cd rom version.
A Dake's Bible even with it's imperfections is a wonder to behold. The

most

thoroughly referenced bible I've ever seen. I wouldn't be without one.
You can check it all out here: http://www.dake.com/

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

I your toast gets stuck in the toaster, do not try to remove it with a fork.
.

User: "Mark"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	03 Mar 2004 10:00:16 PM

"naming el" <naming_el@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:61cc8295.0403031053.73cc91cf@posting.google.com...

Gotta give credit to the Dake's Bible on that. It's cut and pasted

from

the

interactive cd rom version.
A Dake's Bible even with it's imperfections is a wonder to behold.

The

most

thoroughly referenced bible I've ever seen. I wouldn't be without

one.

You can check it all out here: http://www.dake.com/

Ah, should have known...

If you continue your present course and you will become arrogant and
unteachable.

I your toast gets stuck in the toaster, do not try to remove it with a

fork.
Point.
.

User: "Dani"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	29 Feb 2004 09:37:25 PM

On 28 Feb 2004 19:34:52 -0800, Gerald <Gerald_member@newsguy.com>
wrote:

I. Old Testament Prophecies in the New Testament
Those Concerning Christ:
1. Birth (Matthew 1:23; Matthew 2:6; John 7:42)
2. Called out of Egypt (Matthew 2:15)
3. The incarnation (Hebrews 2:5-8; Hebrews 10:5-9)
4. Sonship (Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Hebrews 5:5)
5. Hating sin (Hebrews 1:9)
6. Christ's trust in God (Hebrews 2:13)
7. Called a Nazarene (Matthew 2:23)
8. Spirit baptism (Luke 4:16-21)
9. Ministry (Matthew 12:17-21; John 6:45; Acts 3:22-23; Acts 7:37; Hebrews
10:9)
10. Speaking parables (Matthew 13:35; Luke 8:10)
11. Purification of the temple (Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:15; Luke 19:45; John
2:13-16)
12. Zeal (John 2:17)
13. Light of the world (Matthew 4:14-16; Acts 13:47; Acts 26:23)
14. Triumphal entry (Matthew 21:5,9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13,15)
15. Rejection by Israel (Matthew 21:42; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11,25-28)
16. Betrayal (Matthew 27:9-10; John 13:18)
17. Trial of Jesus (Acts 8:32)
18. Reproach (Romans 15:3)
19. Smitten shepherd; scattered sheep (Matthew 26:31 Mark 14:27)
20. Suffering of Christ (Acts 26:22-23)
21. Crucifixion (Matthew 27:34,35,43,46; Mark 15:34,36; Galatians 3:13)
22. Numbered with the transgressors (Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37)
23. Casting lots at the cross (John 19:24)
24. Thirsting (John 19:28)
25. Bones not broken (John 19:36)
26. Piercing (John 19:37)
27. Resurrection (Acts 2:25-27,30-31; Acts 13:34-35; Acts 26:23)
28. Exaltation (Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42-43; Acts 2:34; Hebrews
1:13)
29. God's salvation (Acts 13:47)
30. Chief cornerstone (1 Peter 2:6-7)
31. Rock of offence (1 Peter 2:8)
32. Eternal kingship (Hebrews 1:8)
33. Unchangeableness (Hebrews 1:10-12)
34. Unity with believers (Hebrews 2:12-13)
35. Eternal priesthood (Hebrews 5:6,10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:17,21)
36. Leading captivity captive (Ephes. 4:8)

Magnificent post, John. I seldom copy a post for storage but this one is a
keeper.

Yeah man! Magnificant!
I save some of the better ones myself, there Gerald.
(I've even saved a few of my own ..lol).
Dani
.

User: "no"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	26 Feb 2004 07:07:54 PM

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

Ok a lot of yes I am here and you are there.
I have a little test: this movie is just a last call for us to decide. Weeks
ahead are beginning to drive us in the eye of the storm. Everything is
beginning to pop-up. I bet that when things really change someone will
change his mind.
look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.
................

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:e7f6b91.0402251759.2fbb6d92@posting.google.com...

"Jake the Pake" <johncon2@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:<Qd0%b.16664$cb.9277@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...

There is no god

The extreme atheist position is wrong. So is the extreme religionist's
view.

, and any man or woman that believes that anyone or anything
that can suddenly pop up from nowhere and create heaven and earth in 6

days

needs a good slap across the face to bring them back to reality.

Yeah, that's unreal probably.

Religion
was engineered to control the masses

Engineered yes, but there is some original truth to religion.

and all it has done since then is
create chaos and havoc across the world.

Along with other institutions.

It will be a great day when a UFO
lands in Time Square and the aliens prove once and for all that religion

all one big con..

If UFO's are watching, why should they interfere? They would watch us
like we watch ant colonies.

........................

"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0402241224.332292af@posting.google.com...

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema /

NAILED
by DAVID DENBY
Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ."
Issue of 2004-03-01
Posted 2004-02-23

In "The Passion of the Christ," Mel Gibson shows little interest in
celebrating the electric charge of hope and redemption that Jesus
Christ brought into the world.

<snip>

As a viewer, I am equally free to say that the movie Gibson has made
from his personal obsessions is a sickening death trip, a grimly
unilluminating procession of treachery, beatings, blood, and agony-and
to say so without indulging in "anti-Christian sentiment" (Gibson's
term for what his critics are spreading). For two hours, with only an
occasional pause or gentle flashback, we watch, stupefied, as a
handsome, strapping, at times half-naked young man (James Caviezel) is
slowly tortured to death. Gibson is so thoroughly fixated on the
scourging and crushing of Christ, and so meagrely involved in the
spiritual meanings of the final hours, that he falls in danger of
altering Jesus' message of love into one of hate.

And against whom will the audience direct its hate? As Gibson was
completing the film, some historians, theologians, and clergymen
accused him of emphasizing the discredited charge that it was the
ancient Jews who were primarily responsible for killing Jesus, a claim
that has served as the traditional justification for the persecution
of the Jews in Europe for nearly two millennia. The critics turn out
to have been right. Gibson is guilty of some serious mischief in his
handling of these issues. But he may have also committed an aggression
against Christian believers. The movie has been hailed as a religious
experience by various Catholic and Protestant groups, some of whom,
with an ungodly eye to the commercial realities of film distribution,
have prepurchased blocks of tickets or rented theatres to insure "The
Passion" a healthy opening weekend's business. But how, I wonder, will
people become better Christians if they are filled with the guilt,
anguish, or loathing that this movie may create in their souls?

<snip>

For two hours, with only an occasional pause or gentle flashback, we
watch, stupefied, as a handsome, strapping, at times half-naked young
man (James Caviezel) is slowly tortured to death. Gibson is so
thoroughly fixated on the scourging and crushing of Christ, and so
meagrely involved in the spiritual meanings of the final hours, that
he falls in danger of altering Jesus' message of love into one of
hate.

<snip>

What is most depressing about "The Passion" is the thought that people
will take their children to see it. Jesus said, "Suffer the little
children to come unto me," not "Let the little children watch me
suffer." How will parents deal with the pain, terror, and anger that
children will doubtless feel as they watch a man flayed and pierced
until dead? The despair of the movie is hard to shrug off, and
Gibson's timing couldn't be more unfortunate: another dose of
death-haunted religious fanaticism is the last thing we need.

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	27 Feb 2004 06:07:13 AM

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?
If the espionage services aren't doing this kind of thing, what are
they there for?
It snowed in London yesterday -- I want to know what the Government is
doing about it and why a minister hasn't resigned!
-A
.

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	27 Feb 2004 02:59:43 PM

"Absolute Zero" <AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie> wrote in message news:ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

I probably mean the NSA?
-A
.

User: "no"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 05:31:09 AM

(Absolute Zero) wrote in message news:<ad960a96.0402271259.116324f0@posting.google.com>...

"Absolute Zero" <

> wrote in message news:ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

I probably mean the NSA?

Doesn't matter what you write in your intuitive fantasy. If you're
interested in the truth, type "Richard Butler" in the Google NEWS
search engine. Find the CNN International article. Richard Butler
tells the story, plus there are statements by Clare. Butler's
conversations were monitored by 4 nations: US, UK, Russia, and France.
He only had privacy when he went to Central Park to talk with UN
people. Do some research. I would give you the URL if this computer
had a copy function, which it doesn't. Get on your horse and search
before the article is deleted; or wait till Monday...since I saved the
article's URL at my computer. Who should I believe?...You or Clare and
Butler? Guess. You are not to be believed, without research guessing.

-A

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 02:00:28 PM

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7f6b91.0402280331.2aa8bcc1@posting.google.com...

AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie (Absolute Zero) wrote in message

news:<ad960a96.0402271259.116324f0@posting.google.com>...

"Absolute Zero" <AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie> wrote in message

news:ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

Ok a lot of yes I am here and you are there.
I have a little test: this movie is just a last call for us to

decide. Weeks

ahead are beginning to drive us in the eye of the storm.

Everything is

beginning to pop-up. I bet that when things really change someone

will

change his mind.
look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

I probably mean the NSA?

Sheesh - That is EXACTLY my point.

He only had privacy when he went to Central Park to talk with UN
people. Do some research. I would give you the URL if this computer
had a copy function, which it doesn't. Get on your horse and search
before the article is deleted; or wait till Monday...since I saved the
article's URL at my computer. Who should I believe?...You or Clare and
Butler? Guess. You are not to be believed, without research guessing.

Do you imagine that a minister (especially one with a fluffy remit
like Overseas Development) reads an espionage transcript with a cover
note stating how the data was obtained? She doesn't have a clue
whether the information was obtained under our auspices, yours, joint
efforts, satellites, bugs, human eavesdropping, complicit respondents,
etc, etc. That information, OBVIOUSLY, stays within the service.
This started over Kofi.. I simply state that the transcript is more
likely to have come from your lot. Simple logic. But why does that
matter? Are you seriously suggesting that the NSA has a picket fence
around the secretary general? "We don't bug him, it would be immoral,
against the Vienna protocol." Yeah right, pull the other one; it's got
bells on.
So the PM should resign, exposed as having run intelligence gathering
operations.. <shock horror> JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. You of sound
mind, having graduated from kindergarten, should've known this
already. Did you? No? Then I suggest you try out for the Presidency of
la-la land.
-A
.

User: "no"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 05:56:44 PM

(Absolute Zero) wrote in message news:<ad960a96.0402281200.5f63404f@posting.google.com>...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7f6b91.0402280331.2aa8bcc1@posting.google.com...

(Absolute Zero) wrote in message

news:<ad960a96.0402271259.116324f0@posting.google.com>...

"Absolute Zero" <

> wrote in message

news:ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

Ok a lot of yes I am here and you are there.
I have a little test: this movie is just a last call for us to

decide. Weeks

ahead are beginning to drive us in the eye of the storm.

Everything is

beginning to pop-up. I bet that when things really change someone

will

change his mind.
look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

I probably mean the NSA?

Sheesh - That is EXACTLY my point.

DREAM on. The NSA would not share transcripts with Russia and France
over Iraq. It's likely MI6 was involved, since Russian and French
intel was there monitoring.

Forget it. You're a dingbat through and through.

This started over Kofi.. I simply state that the transcript is more
likely to have come from your lot. Simple logic. But why does that
matter? Are you seriously suggesting that the NSA has a picket fence
around the secretary general? "We don't bug him, it would be immoral,
against the Vienna protocol." Yeah right, pull the other one; it's got
bells on.

So the PM should resign, exposed as having run intelligence gathering
operations.. <shock horror> JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. You of sound
mind, having graduated from kindergarten, should've known this
already. Did you? No? Then I suggest you try out for the Presidency of
la-la land.

Dingbat. The PM must admit his (partially, might as well have been
totally) class written dossier was a huge failure. He must out
whomever gave away Kelly's name. Now this UN bugging is seen as an
international crime, thought so also by Clare Short. You may be tall,
but your moral standards concerning Blair are short indeed. There
isn't much I have to say to you, perhaps for a long time. Go kiss
Blair, you kook.

-A

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	29 Feb 2004 07:35:25 AM

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7f6b91.0402281556.4820d6b0@posting.google.com...

AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie (Absolute Zero) wrote in message

news:<ad960a96.0402281200.5f63404f@posting.google.com>...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7f6b91.0402280331.2aa8bcc1@posting.google.com...

AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie (Absolute Zero) wrote in message

news:<ad960a96.0402271259.116324f0@posting.google.com>...

"Absolute Zero" <AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie> wrote in message

news:ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

Ok a lot of yes I am here and you are there.
I have a little test: this movie is just a last call for us to

decide. Weeks

ahead are beginning to drive us in the eye of the storm.

Everything is

beginning to pop-up. I bet that when things really change

someone

will

change his mind.
look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do

you

imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in

their

own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

I probably mean the NSA?

Sheesh - That is EXACTLY my point.

DREAM on. The NSA would not share transcripts with Russia and France
over Iraq. It's likely MI6 was involved, since Russian and French
intel was there monitoring.

I didn't say they would share with the Russians and the French (except when
it suits them), oh reading impaired one.
1) I said that everyone is doing it.
2) I said GCHQ and the NSA share intelligence and resources... as a matter
of course.

Forget it. You're a dingbat through and through.

PKB
-A
.

User: "no"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	27 Feb 2004 06:15:46 PM

(Absolute Zero) wrote in message news:<ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com>...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

What, bugging Annan and the UN inspectors? Go Clare Short.
.............

It snowed in London yesterday -- I want to know what the Government is
doing about it and why a minister hasn't resigned!

-A

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 02:56:50 AM

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7f6b91.0402271615.71dbd46b@posting.google.com...

AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie (Absolute Zero) wrote in message

news:<ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com>...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

Ok a lot of yes I am here and you are there.
I have a little test: this movie is just a last call for us to

decide. Weeks

ahead are beginning to drive us in the eye of the storm. Everything

beginning to pop-up. I bet that when things really change someone

will

change his mind.
look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

So, you think MI6/GCHQ obtained these transcripts by their own hand..
nothing to do with your lilywhite lot? Answer please.

If the espionage services aren't doing this kind of thing, what are
they there for?

What, bugging Annan and the UN inspectors?

In the big, bad world, Dee, everyone is spying on everyone. Political,
diplomatic, military and industrial. Guess what? In the world of
grownups, everyone knows it.

Go Clare Short.

Ditto - but for different reasons. I'd like them to quit the
make-believe, stop treating us as though we were all as naive as you
*seem* to be. The more this is acknowledged the safer we'll be from
our own governments.
-A
.

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: the passion of christ	28 Feb 2004 02:52:51 PM

"Absolute Zero" <AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie> wrote in message news:ad960a96.0402280056.4bf80df4@posting.google.com...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7f6b91.0402271615.71dbd46b@posting.google.com...

AmyCaton@GoFree.indigo.ie (Absolute Zero) wrote in message

news:<ad960a96.0402270407.1cbd9b13@posting.google.com>...

"no" <eoe677677oeo@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:e7f6b91.0402261707.7987ab32@posting.google.com...

"pk" <pikaciu2004@tiscali.it> wrote in message

news:<c1jqbq$6sm$1@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>...

Ok a lot of yes I am here and you are there.
I have a little test: this movie is just a last call for us to

decide. Weeks

ahead are beginning to drive us in the eye of the storm. Everything

beginning to pop-up. I bet that when things really change someone

will

change his mind.
look at quakes and volcanoes. they are the sentinels

I hope they signal that Blair resigns. Go Clare Short.

Humbug, dream on... Has the UN building relocated to London? Do you
imagine MI6 has better comms surveillance in NY than the CIA in their
own backyard? Where do YOU think the transcripts came from?

So, you think MI6/GCHQ obtained these transcripts by their own hand..
nothing to do with your lilywhite lot? Answer please.

tap, tap, tap...
Try reading Daark's post, id:4kt14053f30jrsb63l7k64r1ej00p5v969@4ax.com
Scary reading for nervous virgins? Wake up, Neo.
-A
.

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