The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
Sadly we currently see the efforts of the Christian missionary activity
focused primarily on derailing Islam now more than any other period in
history. Thus, we witness numerous travesties and parodies coming from
them in their attempts to twist, manipulate and totally abuse historical
and etymological facts. These polemics range from a variety of the utterly
hilarious to the outright abusive and cruel. One such dishonest Christian
missionary polemic has been the allegation of the young marriage of
`Âishah(R) to the Prophet Muhammad(P). The missionaries try to accuse the
Prophet of being a child molester, albeit in politically correct terms,
due to the fact that `Âishah(R) was betrothed (zawaj) at the age of 6
years old and the marriage was consummated (nikâh) a few years after the
marriage at 9 years old when she was in full puberty. The lapse of time
between the zawaj and nikâh of `Âishah(R) clearly shows that her parents
were waiting for her to reach puberty before her marriage was consummated.
If it were not for the fact that some gullible Christians have been
parroting the claims without understanding the reasons behind it, we would
have not even bothered with a refutation. Such a claim is based only on
conjecture and moral relativism, and not on fact. This article seeks to
refute the allegation, insha'allah.
Puberty And Young Marriage In Semitic Culture
The hilarity of the whole saga of Christian missionaries accusing the
Prophet(P) of committing "child molestation" is that this contradicts the
basic fact that a girl becomes a woman when she begins her menstruation
cycle. The significance of menstruation that anyone with the slightest
familiarity with physiology will tell you is that it is a sign that the
girl is being prepared to become a mother.
Women reach puberty at different ages ranging from 8-12 years old
depending on genetics, race and environment. We read that
There is little difference in the size of boys and girls until the age
of ten, the growth spurt at puberty starts earlier in girls but lasts
longer in boys.[1]
We also read that
The first signs of puberty occur around age 9 or 10 in girls but closer
to 12 in boys[.][2]
Women in warmer environments reach puberty at a much earlier age than
those in cold environments.
The average temperature of the country or province is considered the
chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the
whole of sexual development at puberty.[3]
Marriage at the early years of puberty was acceptable in 7th century
Arabia as it was the social norm in all Semitic cultures from the
Israelites to the Arabs and all nations in between. According to Hâ-Talmûd
Hâ-Bavlî, which the Jews regard as their "oral Torah", Sanhedrin 76b
clearly states that it is preferable that a woman be married when she has
her first menses, and in Ketuvot 6a there are rules regarding sexual
intercourse with girls who have not yet menstruated. This is further
collaborated when Jim West, ThD, a Baptist minister, observes the
following tradition of the Israelites:
The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually
at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the
purity of the family line.[4]
Puberty has always been a symbol of adulthood throughout history.
Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first
capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or
celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture.[5]
The renowned sexologists, R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwards, in their study
of Afro-Asian sexual expression states the following
Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are
wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no
self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty.[6]
Were There Any Objections to the Marriage of the Prophet(P) to `Âishah(R)?
The answer to this is no. There are absolutely no records from Muslim,
secular, or any other historical sources which even implicitly display
anything other than utter joy from all parties involved over this
marriage. Nabia Abbott describes the marriage of `Âishah(R) to the
Prophet(P) as follows.
In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages
between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the
most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much
enamoured with her play.[7]
Even the well-known critical Orientalist, W. Montgomery Watt, said the
following about the Prophet's moral character:
From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of
treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not
find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts
criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were
higher than those of his time.[8]
Aside from the fact that no one was displeased with him or his actions, he
was a paramount example of moral character in his society and time.
Therefore, to judge the Prophet's morality based on the standards of our
society and culture today is not only absurd, but also unfair.
Marriage At Puberty Today
The Prophet's contemporaries (both enemies and friends) clearly accepted
the Prophet's marriage to `Âishah(R) without any problem. We see the
evidence for this by the lack of criticism against the marriage until
modern times. However, a change in culture has caused the change in our
times today.
Even today in the 21st century, the age of sexual consent is still quite
low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and
in Spain they can legally have sex at the age of 12 years old[9]. A
40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile"
in the United States, but neither in China today, where the age of consent
is 14, nor in the United States in the last century. Biology is a much
better standard by which to determine these things, not the arbitrariness
of human culture. In the U.S. during the last century, the age of consent
was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of
consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other U.S. states
joined in and raised the age of consent too[10].
Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained
puberty.
From the collection of Bukhari[11], we read the following tracts:
a.. The boy attaining the age of puberty and the validity of their
witness and the Statement of Allâh:
"And when the children among you attain the age of puberty, then let
them also ask for permission (to enter)." Qur'ân 24:59.
a.. Al Mughira said, "I attained puberty at the age of twelve." The
attaining of puberty by women is with the start of menses, as is referred
to by the Statement of Allâh:
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for
them prescribed period if you have any doubts (about their periods) is
three months..." [Qur'ân, 65:4]
Thus, it is part of Islam to acknowledge the coming of puberty as the
start of adulthood. It is the time when the person has already matured and
is ready the responsibilities of an adult. So on what basis do the
missionaries criticize the marriage of `Âishah(R) since her marriage was
consummated when she had reached puberty?
We also read from the same source that
...Al-Hasan bin Salih said, "I saw a neighbour of mine who became a
grandmother at the age of twenty-one."(1)
(1) The note for this reference says: "This women attained puberty at
the age of nine and married to give birth to a daughter at ten; the
daughter had the same experience."[12]
Thus, it is clear that if the charge of "child molestation" were to be
advanced against the Prophet(P), we would also have to include all the
Semitic people who accepted marriage at puberty as the norm.
Conclusions
We have thus seen that
a.. It was the norm of the Semitic society in 7th century Arabia to
allow pubescent marriages.
b.. There was no reports of opposition to the Prophet's marriage to
`Âishah(R) either from his friends or his enemies.
c.. Even today, there are cultures who still allow pubescent marriage
for their young women.
In spite of facing these well-known facts, the missionaries would still
have the audacity to point a finger at the Prophet Muhammad(P) for
immorality. Yet, it was he who had brought justice to the women of Arabia
and raised them to a level they had not seen before in their society,
something which ancient civilizations have never done to their women.
When Muhammad(P) first became the Prophet of Islam, the pagans of Arabia
had inherited a disregard for women as had been passed down among their
Jewish and Christian neighbours. So disgraceful was it considered among
them to be blessed with a female child that they would go so far as to
bury this baby alive in order to avoid the disgrace associated with female
children.
"When news is brought to one of them of (the birth of) a female (child)
his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he
hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he
retain it on (sufferance and) contempt or bury it in the dust? Ah! what an
evil (choice) they decide on!"[13]
Through the teachings of Islam, Muhammad(P) put a swift and resounding end
to this evil practice. God tells us that on the Day of Judgment, the
female child will be questioned for what crime she was killed.
"When the female (infant) buried alive is questioned - for what crime
she was killed."[14]
Not only did Muhammad(P) severely discouraged and condemned this act,
he(P) also used to teach them to respect and cherish their daughters and
mothers as partners and sources of salvation for the men of their family.
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri narrated that
The Prophet(P) said: 'If anyone cares for three daughters, disciplines
them, marries them, and does good by them, he will enter Paradise.'[15]
Abdullah the son of Abbas narrated that
The Prophet(P) said: 'If anyone has a female child, and does not bury
her alive, or slight her, or prefer his male children over her, Allâh will
bring him into Paradise.'[16]
The Prophet(P) is also cited in Saheeh Muslim as saying
'Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will
come on the Day of Resurrection like this'; and he joined his fingers.
In other words, if one loves the Messenger of God(P) and wishes to be with
him on the day of resurrection in heaven, then they should do good by
their daughters. This is certainly not the act of a "child molester", as
the missionaries would like us to believe.
Finally, we end this with a citation from the Holy Prophet(P), who said
"I have come to defend the two oppressed peoples: women and orphans."
The Prophet Muhammad(P)
Appendix: A married nine-year old in Thailand gives birth
Below is a news article from The New Straits Times, Malaysia dated 10th of
March, 2001 about a nine-year old girl living in northern Thailand giving
birth to a baby girl. The fact that a nine-year old girl is mature enough
to give birth proves the point above about girls reaching puberty earlier
than men.
Should the husband of this young girl be accused of "child molestation",
as insinuated by the Christian missionaries?
References
[1] The Incredible Machine, National Geographic Society, p. 235
[2] The Incredible Machine, National Geographic Society, p. 239
[3] Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, "Woman", Volume I (Lord
& Bransby, 1988), p. 563
[4] Jim West, ThD, Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs
[5] Sue Curewitz Arthen, Rites of Passage: Puberty
[6] The Cradle of Erotica (Julian Press, New York, 1962)
[7] Nabia Abbott, Aishah, The Beloved of Mohammed, p. 7
[8] W. M. Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, (Oxford University Press,
1961), p. 229
[9] Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm
[10] Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm
[11] Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book of Witnesses, Chapter 18, p. 513
[12] Ibid
[13] Qur'ân, 16:58-59
[14] Qur'ân, 81:9
[15] Narrated by Abu Dawood
[16] Narrated by Abu Dawood
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/aishah.htm
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 06:57:14 AM |
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Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
Woods
.
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| User: "Jane" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 07:21:59 AM |
|
|
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child brides",
whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be touched until
after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just before
her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's consent,
a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age of the man.
In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced to 9 years of
age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the girl
can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather than her
father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is fistula,
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately still prevalent
in the Third World where women are routinely married off and pregnant at a
young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty does not mean she is
either emotionally or physically mature enough for marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by her
father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of him
falling in love with a child.
Jane
Woods
.
|
|
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| User: "Doc" |
|
| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 08:20:29 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P5Hdf.19$KP5.4619@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just
before her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's
consent, a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age
of the man. In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced
to 9 years of age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the
girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather
than her father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is
fistula, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately
still prevalent in the Third World where women are routinely married off
and pregnant at a young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty
does not mean she is either emotionally or physically mature enough for
marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by
her father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of
him falling in love with a child.
Jane
How many "adults" do you know, fully legal age and above in Canada or the
USA, that were not emotionally mature enough to live with each other, or
understand the implications, responsibilities, et al, of mutual love (and
sex)? I know of plenty, and I'm sure others understand what I'm saying.
More than enough "failures" even at and way above the legal ages of
consent. Age itself is not a reliable measure of the ability of two human
beings to take on the responsibility of love and sex, living together, or
getting married. Motivation, commitment, and coping skills vary widely.
Who decides when a female or male can understand these things and cope
with them? We're talking about ancient societies and their common customs,
and then, too, some of that early-age consent tradition has continued into
today's world.
When the famous Mary Kay LaTorneau, an elementary school teacher in her
30's, had unmanipulative, unforced, fully consensual sex with a 12-13 year
male student, she broke US laws for the age of consent (18). Yet, after
serving a long jail term, she and the student (now legal age) were
married. They have two kids. They say they are deeply in love. They said
the same thing when she was first arrested. The media and public had a
terrifically sleazy indulgement with the story. One wonders why so much of
the public has had such an intense interest in such situations.
My strong feeling is that the love between human beings, hetero or
otherwise, is a highly individual, case by case situation, and can't
effectively or fairly be "controlled" by arbitrary ages set by "general"
laws.
Cultures throughout history have had greatly varying attitudes toward this
subject,and only relatively recently, have primarily Western societies
moved ages of consent upward, citing "emotional maturity" issues and/or
physical "problems" that may cause some kind of harm. Psychologists have
usually jumped on the bandwagon, and given their opinions that such
"underage" couplings are "harmful." It's these same psychologists that
have widely endorsed antidepressants for children that have now proven to
be more harmful than previously thought. Are they always so right about
what is right for ALL of us?
I think it's mainly a pile of moral-psychological-social horseshit, Jane.
It may be that the politically correct staus quo conformists feel that
more recent attitudes toward legal consent age limits rhymes with their
own personal spin on human morality, but it does a disservice to those who
fall in love and/or are otherwise strongly attracted to an age (very young
or much older) of a "love interest." It gets in the way of human beings
trying to enjoy, love, interact on an intimate level.
My great-great grandparents, on my mother's side, would have been regarded
as "immoral" by today's standards. The woman was only 14 and the man was
31. Yet, they had 9 children and were married for 35 years. Apparently,
that "pedophilic" relationship worked out just fine. Others don't. But,
that's life!
I'd say stop listening to Christian and other moralists, turn off the
corporate media exploitative bobble-heads, etc., and leave love and sex to
the individual. It is highly individualistic in nature, very private, and
varies greatly in "capability" or coping skills from one person to the
other...but it is definitely one of the few potentially pleasurable,
fulfilling aspects of human life if it clicks right with both parties.
Additionally, Christians need to enjoy their religious beliefs, honor
Jesus, and cease trying to elevate themselves morally by denigrating
others' belief systems. It has led to nothing but misery and bloodshed. I
don't hear Muslims making claims that the missing years of Jesus' life may
have included "immoral liaisons" with women. One would wonder, for
example, what exactly were the details of his "interesting" relationship
with Mary Magdelene. If we want to cast aspersions on the sacred beliefs
of pious folks, let's at least remember that Christianity hasn't gotten
the full story of its Jesus fleshed out in factual history. Might there be
something "hidden" in that history, those missing years, that would prove
Jesus was a lot more human than most believers would like to accept. Eh?
Incidentally, Aishah, by one source I found, is believed to have died at
the age of 18. They often lived hard short lives in a harsh
environment,and I know that Jewish girls at the age of 12 were married in
those ancient times.
Doc
Woods
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jane" |
|
| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 11:15:05 AM |
|
|
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dl7i3e01ijr@enews2.newsguy.com...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P5Hdf.19$KP5.4619@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just
before her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's
consent, a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age
of the man. In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced
to 9 years of age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the
girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather
than her father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is
fistula, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately still
prevalent in the Third World where women are routinely married off and
pregnant at a young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty does
not mean she is either emotionally or physically mature enough for
marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by
her father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of
him falling in love with a child.
Jane
How many "adults" do you know, fully legal age and above in Canada or the
USA, that were not emotionally mature enough to live with each other, or
understand the implications, responsibilities, et al, of mutual love (and
sex)? I know of plenty, and I'm sure others understand what I'm saying.
More than enough "failures" even at and way above the legal ages of
consent. Age itself is not a reliable measure of the ability of two human
beings to take on the responsibility of love and sex, living together, or
getting married. Motivation, commitment, and coping skills vary widely.
Who decides when a female or male can understand these things and cope
with them? We're talking about ancient societies
Khomeini did not rule over an "ancient society".
and their common customs,
and then, too, some of that early-age consent tradition has continued into
today's world.
When the famous Mary Kay LaTorneau, an elementary school teacher in her
30's, had unmanipulative, unforced, fully consensual sex with a 12-13 year
male student, she broke US laws for the age of consent (18). Yet, after
serving a long jail term, she and the student (now legal age) were
married. They have two kids. They say they are deeply in love. They said
the same thing when she was first arrested. The media and public had a
terrifically sleazy indulgement with the story. One wonders why so much of
the public has had such an intense interest in such situations.
I thought they were best ignored, too. Still, she admits she fell in love
when he was eight. She is a pedophile, in my book.
My strong feeling is that the love between human beings, hetero or
otherwise, is a highly individual, case by case situation, and can't
effectively or fairly be "controlled" by arbitrary ages set by "general"
laws.
Cultures throughout history have had greatly varying attitudes toward this
subject,and only relatively recently, have primarily Western societies
moved ages of consent upward, citing "emotional maturity" issues and/or
physical "problems" that may cause some kind of harm. Psychologists have
usually jumped on the bandwagon, and given their opinions that such
"underage" couplings are "harmful." It's these same psychologists that
have widely endorsed antidepressants for children that have now proven to
be more harmful than previously thought. Are they always so right about
what is right for ALL of us?
I think it's mainly a pile of moral-psychological-social horseshit, Jane.
It may be that the politically correct staus quo conformists feel that
more recent attitudes toward legal consent age limits rhymes with their
own personal spin on human morality, but it does a disservice to those who
fall in love and/or are otherwise strongly attracted to an age (very young
or much older) of a "love interest." It gets in the way of human beings
trying to enjoy, love, interact on an intimate level.
My great-great grandparents, on my mother's side, would have been regarded
as "immoral" by today's standards. The woman was only 14 and the man was
31. Yet, they had 9 children and were married for 35 years.
I have many ancestors like that. I mentioned the one who was 12. And you
are right, it was a different world, with shorter lifespans, etc. If
Mohammed had married a 13-year-old, I doubt I would even have a comment.
Nine is too young, period. Probably emotionally...definitely physically
(not ready to give birth to the babies that go along with it...read about
fistula and think about whether you would wish that on anyone)
Apparently,
that "pedophilic" relationship worked out just fine. Others don't. But,
that's life!
I'd say stop listening to Christian and other moralists, turn off the
corporate media exploitative bobble-heads, etc., and leave love and sex to
the individual.
You have me all wrong. I am not religious, nor am I a moralist. Nor am I
politically-correct. However, by your logic, we should encourage NAMBLA and
let all the pedos out of jail, because they are just following where their
"love" leads them!
I have a cousin who was molested by her "loving" uncle as a child.
Fortunately, he stopped when she asked her to, but the experiance has
haunted the family to the point that there is a schism that will never be
closed.
It is highly individualistic in nature, very private, and
varies greatly in "capability" or coping skills from one person to the
other...but it is definitely one of the few potentially pleasurable,
fulfilling aspects of human life if it clicks right with both parties.
Additionally, Christians need to enjoy their religious beliefs, honor
Jesus, and cease trying to elevate themselves morally by denigrating
others' belief systems. It has led to nothing but misery and bloodshed. I
don't hear Muslims making claims that the missing years of Jesus' life may
have included "immoral liaisons" with women. One would wonder, for
example, what exactly were the details of his "interesting" relationship
with Mary Magdelene. If we want to cast aspersions on the sacred beliefs
of pious folks, let's at least remember that Christianity hasn't gotten
the full story of its Jesus fleshed out in factual history.
Do you even read what I write? I just posted a few days ago to eric that
Jesus may have married, had children or otherwise had sex with Mary
Magdeleine, or may have been gay and who the hell cares if everyone was an
adult???
If you think I am a religious Christian, you obviously have me confused with
someone else! I'm a mostly (except for Xmas Eve)-lapsed Catholic, who
wasn't even married in the Church!
Might there be
something "hidden" in that history, those missing years, that would prove
Jesus was a lot more human than most believers would like to accept. Eh?
Incidentally, Aishah, by one source I found, is believed to have died at
the age of 18. They often lived hard short lives in a harsh
environment,and I know that Jewish girls at the age of 12 were married in
those ancient times.
So were French Catholic girls. I DO see a difference between nine and
12...nevertheless, I would not condone a 12-yr-old marrying today, either.
Jane
Doc
Woods
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doc" |
|
| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
14 Nov 2005 05:35:49 AM |
|
|
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mwKdf.348$w84.35566@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Doc" <bushelsofbushrot@HellsHereNow.com> wrote in message
news:dl7i3e01ijr@enews2.newsguy.com...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P5Hdf.19$KP5.4619@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just
before her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444
"
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's
consent, a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the
age of the man. In recent years the marriage age for women has been
reduced to 9 years of age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the
girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather
than her father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is
fistula, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately
still prevalent in the Third World where women are routinely married
off and pregnant at a young age. Just because a girl has reached
puberty does not mean she is either emotionally or physically mature
enough for marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by
her father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result
of him falling in love with a child.
Jane
How many "adults" do you know, fully legal age and above in Canada or
the USA, that were not emotionally mature enough to live with each
other, or understand the implications, responsibilities, et al, of
mutual love (and sex)? I know of plenty, and I'm sure others understand
what I'm saying. More than enough "failures" even at and way above the
legal ages of consent. Age itself is not a reliable measure of the
ability of two human beings to take on the responsibility of love and
sex, living together, or getting married. Motivation, commitment, and
coping skills vary widely.
Who decides when a female or male can understand these things and cope
with them? We're talking about ancient societies
Khomeini did not rule over an "ancient society".
and their common customs,
and then, too, some of that early-age consent tradition has continued
into today's world.
Well, you don't pay close attention to some of what I write, either. ;) As
I said, some of that early-age consent tradition has continued into
today's world which included Khomeini's Iran.
When the famous Mary Kay LaTorneau, an elementary school teacher in her
30's, had unmanipulative, unforced, fully consensual sex with a 12-13
year male student, she broke US laws for the age of consent (18). Yet,
after serving a long jail term, she and the student (now legal age)
were married. They have two kids. They say they are deeply in love.
They said the same thing when she was first arrested. The media and
public had a terrifically sleazy indulgement with the story. One
wonders why so much of the public has had such an intense interest in
such situations.
I thought they were best ignored, too. Still, she admits she fell in
love when he was eight. She is a pedophile, in my book.
The definition of a pedophilia is the act or FANTASY on the part of an
adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children. My
understanding of the her story is that she did NOT have any sexual act
with the boy until he reached 12, although she may well have fantasized
before he reached that age. I don't think the fantasy part is against the
law. If it is, "thought police" must be lurking and checking out citizens.
My strong feeling is that the love between human beings, hetero or
otherwise, is a highly individual, case by case situation, and can't
effectively or fairly be "controlled" by arbitrary ages set by
"general" laws.
Cultures throughout history have had greatly varying attitudes toward
this subject,and only relatively recently, have primarily Western
societies moved ages of consent upward, citing "emotional maturity"
issues and/or physical "problems" that may cause some kind of harm.
Psychologists have usually jumped on the bandwagon, and given their
opinions that such "underage" couplings are "harmful." It's these same
psychologists that have widely endorsed antidepressants for children
that have now proven to be more harmful than previously thought. Are
they always so right about what is right for ALL of us?
I think it's mainly a pile of moral-psychological-social horseshit,
Jane. It may be that the politically correct staus quo conformists feel
that more recent attitudes toward legal consent age limits rhymes with
their own personal spin on human morality, but it does a disservice to
those who fall in love and/or are otherwise strongly attracted to an
age (very young or much older) of a "love interest." It gets in the
way of human beings trying to enjoy, love, interact on an intimate
level.
My great-great grandparents, on my mother's side, would have been
regarded as "immoral" by today's standards. The woman was only 14 and
the man was 31. Yet, they had 9 children and were married for 35 years.
I have many ancestors like that. I mentioned the one who was 12. And
you are right, it was a different world, with shorter lifespans, etc.
If Mohammed had married a 13-year-old, I doubt I would even have a
comment. Nine is too young, period. Probably emotionally...definitely
physically (not ready to give birth to the babies that go along with
it...read about fistula and think about whether you would wish that on
anyone)
Yes, I understand there are sometimes physical problems.
Apparently,
that "pedophilic" relationship worked out just fine. Others don't. But,
that's life!
I'd say stop listening to Christian and other moralists, turn off the
corporate media exploitative bobble-heads, etc., and leave love and sex
to the individual.
You have me all wrong. I am not religious, nor am I a moralist. Nor am
I politically-correct. However, by your logic, we should encourage
NAMBLA and let all the pedos out of jail, because they are just
following where their "love" leads them!
Wait a second, Jane. I was referring in a general sense to Christians and
not specifically addressing your Catholicism. I often am aiming parts of
my posts to ANYONE who reads them, and, of course, part of it a specific
poster. I've never said that pedophilia isn't breaking the law and,
according to the current prevailing attitude of the "law," pedophiles are
"sex criminals." In much earlier times, as we've discussed already, this
definition wasn't applied. Realistically, whether pedophiles are in jail
or out, there is no effective way to stop adults from engaging children in
consensual sex acts. Certainly, those pedophiles that coerce, manipulate,
or force children into sex acts are, in my book, the doing the same
criminal acts as adults who rape (date-rape, et al) other adults or kids.
That is a direct violation of the basic human rights of an individual.
I have a cousin who was molested by her "loving" uncle as a child.
Fortunately, he stopped when she asked her to, but the experiance has
haunted the family to the point that there is a schism that will never
be closed.
It is highly individualistic in nature, very private, and
varies greatly in "capability" or coping skills from one person to the
other...but it is definitely one of the few potentially pleasurable,
fulfilling aspects of human life if it clicks right with both parties.
Additionally, Christians need to enjoy their religious beliefs, honor
Jesus, and cease trying to elevate themselves morally by denigrating
others' belief systems. It has led to nothing but misery and bloodshed.
I don't hear Muslims making claims that the missing years of Jesus'
life may have included "immoral liaisons" with women. One would wonder,
for example, what exactly were the details of his "interesting"
relationship with Mary Magdelene. If we want to cast aspersions on the
sacred beliefs of pious folks, let's at least remember that
Christianity hasn't gotten the full story of its Jesus fleshed out in
factual history.
Do you even read what I write? I just posted a few days ago to eric
that Jesus may have married, had children or otherwise had sex with Mary
Magdeleine, or may have been gay and who the hell cares if everyone was
an adult???
Again, I am addressing part of my post in a general sense to anyone out
there, not specifically you, Jane. ;) I am thinking "out loud" about
Christians in general and especially evangelicals. I know you're into
Catholicism, or were, from your bio (in the survey thread). Yes, I do
read peoples' posts but, if I err in responding, or I'm misunderstood in
my reply, well, that's life! LOL...I am, after all, as lil' Stevie blurted
out in an angry response, just an "old man" -- make allowances, please,
for a slight and occasional lapse in synapse firing. heehee...
If you think I am a religious Christian, you obviously have me confused
with someone else! I'm a mostly (except for Xmas Eve)-lapsed Catholic,
who wasn't even married in the Church!
Might there be
something "hidden" in that history, those missing years, that would
prove Jesus was a lot more human than most believers would like to
accept. Eh?
Incidentally, Aishah, by one source I found, is believed to have died
at the age of 18. They often lived hard short lives in a harsh
environment,and I know that Jewish girls at the age of 12 were married
in those ancient times.
So were French Catholic girls. I DO see a difference between nine and
12...nevertheless, I would not condone a 12-yr-old marrying today,
either.
Whether you or I, or anyone, morally regards such behavior as "good" or
"bad," the hard reality is that pedophilia has existed since the earliest
civilizational records and, other than the changing mores and laws through
the centuries in various cultures, and the punishment that now exists
widely throughout the world, there is no real "cure" for this behavior. It
continues unabated as a part of human relationship behavior that "ignores"
laws and morality. The best that can be done is to toss citizens into
jail, or attempt to therapeutically "correct" them. As we've seen, neither
has been successful in stopping this activity.
Jane
Doc
Woods
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 12:51:34 PM |
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Jane wrote to Doc:
Do you even read what I write?
It is obvious that he doesn't. It is also obvious that he makes
judgements of people based on no evidence, and then spouts off with no
basis in reality.
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| User: "Doc" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
14 Nov 2005 05:36:16 AM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131907894.855703.243700@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jane wrote to Doc:
Do you even read what I write?
It is obvious that he doesn't. It is also obvious that he makes
judgements of people based on no evidence, and then spouts off with no
basis in reality.
Whatever you think is "obvious," is your gross misinterpretation here,
with no basis in reality other than another reflection on your long
history of frequently wrong judgements of posters, you hypocrite. Take a
clue from your wonderful Jesus on judging others and ... ***** off!
..
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| User: "Jedi" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
14 Nov 2005 02:05:04 PM |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:15:05 -0500, "Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com>
wrote:
So were French Catholic girls. I DO see a difference between nine and
12...nevertheless, I would not condone a 12-yr-old marrying today, either.
But you don't know the age Aisha at the time of her marriage. There
are many hadith in which Aisha is quoted saying that she was 9, but
these hadith (oral traditions) were collected 300 years after the
death of Muhammad. There are other traditions that implies that Aisha
was older than 9 ..such as (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha)
* According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's (d. 768)
biography of Prophet Muhammad, the Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest
surviving biography of Muhammad, Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn
al-Khattab. If true, then Aisha accepted Islam during the first few
years of Islam. She could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -
the time she got married.
* Tabari reports that when Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Ethiopia
(8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Aisha was
engaged at that time - and asked him to take Aisha as his son's wife.
Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. If Aisha was
only six years old at the time of her betrothal to Muhammad, she could
not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to
Ethiopia. Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman
Kandhalwi, p. 38.
* Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history reports that Abu Bakr had
four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre
Islamic period. If Aisha was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she
could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH. Tarikh al-umam wa
al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, p. 50.
* According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha.
Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was 35 years old.
Muhammad migrated to Medina when he was 52, making Aisha 14 years old
in 1 AH. Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, p. 377.
.
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| User: "Doc" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 08:32:17 AM |
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You may find this site relative to this discussion --
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 08:12:33 AM |
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Jane wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child brides",
whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be touched until
after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just before
her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
You are mistaken if you think I approve of it. I'm just pointing out
that such a thought process is not limited to a single culture.
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's consent,
a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age of the man.
In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced to 9 years of
age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the girl
can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather than her
father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is fistula,
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately still prevalent
in the Third World where women are routinely married off and pregnant at a
young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty does not mean she is
either emotionally or physically mature enough for marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by her
father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of him
falling in love with a child.
So, you have a history of the same thing in your family, but you are
behaving as if only muslims behave in this manner. Shame on you.
Woods
Jane
Woods
.
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| User: "Jane" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 10:54:34 AM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:lRHdf.1327$JQ.161@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Jane wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just
before her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
You are mistaken if you think I approve of it. I'm just pointing out that
such a thought process is not limited to a single culture.
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's
consent, a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age
of the man. In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced
to 9 years of age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the
girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather
than her father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is
fistula, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately still
prevalent in the Third World where women are routinely married off and
pregnant at a young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty does
not mean she is either emotionally or physically mature enough for
marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by
her father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of
him falling in love with a child.
So, you have a history of the same thing in your family, but you are
behaving as if only muslims behave in this manner. Shame on you.
That is your interpretation. Find a cite where I state "only Muslims do
this".
Jane
Woods
Jane
Woods
.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 04:52:43 PM |
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Jane wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:lRHdf.1327$JQ.161@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Jane wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just
before her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
You are mistaken if you think I approve of it. I'm just pointing out that
such a thought process is not limited to a single culture.
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's
consent, a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age
of the man. In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced
to 9 years of age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the
girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather
than her father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is
fistula, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately still
prevalent in the Third World where women are routinely married off and
pregnant at a young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty does
not mean she is either emotionally or physically mature enough for
marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by
her father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of
him falling in love with a child.
So, you have a history of the same thing in your family, but you are
behaving as if only muslims behave in this manner. Shame on you.
That is your interpretation. Find a cite where I state "only Muslims do
this".
Jane
Reread my post - I said you BEHAVE as if only muslims do this, not that
you stated it.
Woods
Woods
Jane
Woods
.
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| User: "Jane" |
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| Title: Re: The Young Marriage of Aishah (to the Prophet Muhammed) |
13 Nov 2005 05:03:23 PM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:%sPdf.1951$uC3.428@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Jane wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:lRHdf.1327$JQ.161@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Jane wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:KKGdf.1321$JQ.868@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Doc wrote:
The Young Marriage of `Âishah(R)
Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
Introduction
<snip>
IIRC, the Kama Sutra had instructions for the treatment of "child
brides", whom we would consider to be children. They were not to be
touched until after their first menses.
I know a little girl who is precocious and bled the first time just
before her ninth b-day. She should be good to go, them, I guess???
You are mistaken if you think I approve of it. I'm just pointing out
that such a thought process is not limited to a single culture.
This is what Khomeini had to say about it:
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352848&TOCID=2083225444 "
"The marriage age for girls was reduced to 13 and with the father's
consent, a girl may marry at the age of nine. No restriction on the age
of the man. In recent years the marriage age for women has been reduced
to 9 years of age.
"The most suitable time for a girl to get married is the time when the
girl can have her first menstrual period in her husband's house rather
than her father's." Ayatollah Khomeini."
One of the most horrific consequences of marriage at a young age is
fistula, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3321.htm , unfortunately
still prevalent in the Third World where women are routinely married off
and pregnant at a young age. Just because a girl has reached puberty
does not mean she is either emotionally or physically mature enough for
marriage/ pregnancy.
I have an ancestor who married a 12-year-old in Montreal in the 17th
century. I feel rather squeamish about it, but she was married off by
her father at the same time as her sisters and it was not the result of
him falling in love with a child.
So, you have a history of the same thing in your family, but you are
behaving as if only muslims behave in this manner. Shame on you.
That is your interpretation. Find a cite where I state "only Muslims do
this".
Jane
Reread my post - I said you BEHAVE as if only muslims do this, not that
you stated it.
Again, you are interpreting it that way. If anyone had asked if only
Muslims were guilty of this, I would of course have said no. In fact, I
remember criticizing fundementalist Mormons, who practice polygamy by
marrying children to old geezers, in a discussion here.
As an aside, I feel exactly the same way about Joseph Smith as I do about
Mohammed. In doing genealogy and visiting the Family History Centers, you
meet a lot of Mormons. Very nice people. However, their prophet had
Mohammed's habit of receiving "revelations" whenever he wished to change the
rules.
Jane
Woods
Woods
Jane
Woods
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