From the Vancouver sun.
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=b71c1343-88d8-4cc2-af87-97f16ad39800
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/signs.htm
A theologian asks the hard questions about 9/11
A soft-spoken professor of religion risks a hard-earned reputation as a
scholar to write one of the most incredible political books of the year
Douglas Todd
Vancouver Sun
December 11, 2004
David Ray Griffin is one of the most respected philosophers of religion
in North America. He is the author or editor of more than 24 academic
books, including works co-written with the deans of world religions,
Huston Smith and Martin Marty. He has lectured around the world,
including at UBC.
Griffin is one of those profiled in the prestigious volume, A Handbook
of Christian Theologians. He's painstakingly probed countless
philosophical challenges, from the question of why there is evil to the
relationship between science and religion, for which he's won numerous
awards.
So why did this soft-spoken professor from the high-ranking
Methodist-rooted School of Theology at Claremont, Calif., feel it
necessary to risk his hard-earned reputation as a religion scholar to
write one of the most incredible -- in all senses of the word --
political books of 2004?
Because no one else in mainstream America seemed prepared to do it.
The result? Griffin's book, The New Pearl Harbour: Disturbing Questions
About the Bush Administration and 9/11 (Interlink Publishing, $22.50)
has already sold an astonishing 80,000 copies.
Griffin's unflinching analysis of the unanswered questions surrounding
the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington has
made Amazon.com's bestseller list despite receiving virtually no
reviews in North America's mainstream media. That's unlike in Britain,
where he's had solid coverage, including a three-page spread in
London's mass-circulation Daily Mail.
Personally, when people ask how a group of Muslim extremists could have
pulled off the devastating suicide attacks against the U.S., in spite
of the country's global intelligence network and massive defence
arsenal, I tend to side with the German philosopher, Goethe, who once
said: "Why look for conspiracy when stupidity can explain so much?"
But when Griffin, who's known for his careful approach to philosophical
problems, poses a series of questions suggesting the administration of
George W. Bush had been warned about the terrorist attacks and did
nothing, it's enough to make you shudder. The implications would make
the Watergate scandal look like a Sunday brunch.
In effect, The New Pearl Harbour fleshes out in 214 pages the question
asked in the final moment of Michael Moore's Academy-award-winning
documentary, Fahrenheit 911. That's when the filmmaker wonders aloud:
What exactly was Bush thinking as he sat in front of a bunch of school
children reading a book titled My Pet Goat, knowing two jetliners had
been flown into the World Trade Center?
Griffin's book is titled The New Pearl Harbor for two reasons. One,
because that's what Bush wrote in his diary on the evening of Sept. 11:
"The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today." But also
because members of the Bush administration in 2000 helped author the
document, Project for the New American Century, which opined it would
be difficult to galvanize Americans to support military expansion in
Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere unless a "new Pearl Harbor" occurred.
Here are a few of the questions Griffin looks into:
* Why did the Bush administration say it didn't anticipate the Sept. 11
attacks when the CIA and FBI had repeatedly told it al-Qaida was
planning to hijack planes and fly them into U.S. targets, including the
World Trade Center and the Pentagon?
* Why were standard procedures that could have prevented the tragedy
not followed when the four hijacked planes went off course, including
immediately sending up jet fighters to shoot down passenger planes that
fail to obey orders?
* Why has there been no physical evidence a jet plane crashed into the
Pentagon? Independent onlookers say they saw a missile fly into the
building. Video evidence shot by a nearby gas station's security
cameras was confiscated by government officials.
* Why did Bush, despite knowing about first one, then two, World Trade
Center crashes, delay his response to them for up to 30 minutes and
instead continue to read a children's book? Why was he not whisked away
by his security agents, who are trained to believe he's a logical
target of terrorists?
* Who made tens of millions of dollars by betting on the stock market
in the weeks before Sept. 11 that shares in the two airlines that owned
the hijacked planes were about to plummet?
The Bush administration has brushed off all such questions. For his
part, Griffin doesn't argue the Bush administration was actually
complicit in the attacks. Some of the professor's fans have regretted
his cautiousness, because he won't compile a grand theory about why the
attacks may have been allowed to happen. He consistently avoids
inflammatory rhetoric.
Griffin, however, has clearly shown the gross inadequacies of the 9/11
Commission, which the Bush administration demanded be restricted to
looking only at how to stop another terrorist assault.
Griffin's supporters, including top Christian theologians, say he
achieved his key goal, which was to provide an overwhelming body of
evidence to show it's necessary to conduct a thorough probe into how
the attacks happened in the first place.
In the past month, Harper's Magazine and the New York Times have
tentatively started to catch up with Griffin's questions. Harper's, for
instance, published a cover feature titled, "Whitewash as public
service: How the 9/11 Commission Report defrauds the nation," by
Benjamin DeMott, which also asks whether it was sheer incompetence or
something else that made the attacks possible.
For his part, Griffin says he's been overwhelmed by the positive
responses he's received to his book, which has sold 50,000 copies in
the U.S. almost solely by word of mouth. In an e-mail interview,
Griffin said he's only received about a dozen denunciations. Many
families of those who died in the World Trade Center attack are among
his supporters. Two of his many high-placed admirers are Canadians;
former Liberal defence minister Paul Hellyer and Michael Chossudovsky
of the University of Ottawa.
Griffin continues to believe the religious and philosophical questions
he's devoted his career to answering are important, but, as a
Christian, he feels a more urgent need to take on the geo-political
developments that have elevated the planet onto high alert. Two weeks
ago he released a follow-up book with the same publisher, titled The
9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions.
dtodd@png.canwest.com
Comment: What is remarkable is that this article is appearing in a
mainstream Canadian newspaper.
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| User: "Absolute Zero" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 06:11:13 PM |
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wrote:
Griffin's book is titled The New Pearl Harbor for two reasons. One,
because that's what Bush wrote in his diary on the evening of Sept. 11:
"The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today." But also
because members of the Bush administration in 2000 helped author the
document, Project for the New American Century, which opined it would
be difficult to galvanize Americans to support military expansion in
Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere unless a "new Pearl Harbor" occurred.
Yep, I'm sure people around here are utterly bored with my repeated
posting of that section of the PNAC document in upper-case.
What the heck, ONE... MORE... TIME...
"THE US HAS FOR DECADES SOUGHT TO PLAY A MORE PERMANENT ROLE IN GULF
REGIONAL SECURITY. WHILE THE UNRESOLVED CONFLICT WITH IRAQ PROVIDES THE
IMMEDIATE JUSTIFICATION, THE NEED FOR A SUBSTANTIAL AMERICAN FORCE
PRESENCE IN THE GULF TRANSCENDS THE ISSUE OF THE REGIME OF SADDAM HUSSEIN."
"THE PROCESS OF TRANSFORMATION IS LIKELY TO BE A LONG ONE ABSENT SOME
CATASTROPHIC AND CATALYSING EVENT -- LIKE A NEW PEARL HARBOUR."
The former explains the latter.
Oh, and speaking of Pearl Harbor.
Woodward: (Bush at War)
"Bush wrote in his diary on the night of September 11, 2001: The Pearl
Harbour of the 21st century took place today."
It's about time this was discussed in public rather than dark corners.
-A
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 06:52:18 PM |
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"Absolute Zero" <amycaton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cpvseo$6hj$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
jha_amin@yahoo.com wrote:
Griffin's book is titled The New Pearl Harbor for two reasons. One,
because that's what Bush wrote in his diary on the evening of Sept. 11:
"The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today." But also
because members of the Bush administration in 2000 helped author the
document, Project for the New American Century, which opined it would
be difficult to galvanize Americans to support military expansion in
Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere unless a "new Pearl Harbor" occurred.
Yep, I'm sure people around here are utterly bored with my repeated
posting of that section of the PNAC document in upper-case.
What the heck, ONE... MORE... TIME...
"THE US HAS FOR DECADES SOUGHT TO PLAY A MORE PERMANENT ROLE IN GULF
REGIONAL SECURITY. WHILE THE UNRESOLVED CONFLICT WITH IRAQ PROVIDES THE
IMMEDIATE JUSTIFICATION, THE NEED FOR A SUBSTANTIAL AMERICAN FORCE
PRESENCE IN THE GULF TRANSCENDS THE ISSUE OF THE REGIME OF SADDAM
HUSSEIN."
"THE PROCESS OF TRANSFORMATION IS LIKELY TO BE A LONG ONE ABSENT SOME
CATASTROPHIC AND CATALYSING EVENT -- LIKE A NEW PEARL HARBOUR."
The former explains the latter.
Oh, and speaking of Pearl Harbor.
Woodward: (Bush at War)
"Bush wrote in his diary on the night of September 11, 2001: The Pearl
Harbour of the 21st century took place today."
It's about time this was discussed in public rather than dark corners.
-A
The sad thing is that as long as the oil flows, the GNP grows, the body
count slows and all the kids can have what they want for Christmas the
American public will be content with living in the dark corners. Voting for
values and electing a warmongering liar.
Everything in caps above is "fine". It preserves our security and our lush
life.
.
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| User: "Absolute Zero" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 07:17:58 PM |
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John F Lemke wrote:
"Absolute Zero" <amycaton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cpvseo$6hj$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
jha_amin@yahoo.com wrote:
Griffin's book is titled The New Pearl Harbor for two reasons. One,
because that's what Bush wrote in his diary on the evening of Sept. 11:
"The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today." But also
because members of the Bush administration in 2000 helped author the
document, Project for the New American Century, which opined it would
be difficult to galvanize Americans to support military expansion in
Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere unless a "new Pearl Harbor" occurred.
Yep, I'm sure people around here are utterly bored with my repeated
posting of that section of the PNAC document in upper-case.
What the heck, ONE... MORE... TIME...
"THE US HAS FOR DECADES SOUGHT TO PLAY A MORE PERMANENT ROLE IN GULF
REGIONAL SECURITY. WHILE THE UNRESOLVED CONFLICT WITH IRAQ PROVIDES THE
IMMEDIATE JUSTIFICATION, THE NEED FOR A SUBSTANTIAL AMERICAN FORCE
PRESENCE IN THE GULF TRANSCENDS THE ISSUE OF THE REGIME OF SADDAM
HUSSEIN."
"THE PROCESS OF TRANSFORMATION IS LIKELY TO BE A LONG ONE ABSENT SOME
CATASTROPHIC AND CATALYSING EVENT -- LIKE A NEW PEARL HARBOUR."
The former explains the latter.
Oh, and speaking of Pearl Harbor.
Woodward: (Bush at War)
"Bush wrote in his diary on the night of September 11, 2001: The Pearl
Harbour of the 21st century took place today."
It's about time this was discussed in public rather than dark corners.
-A
The sad thing is that as long as the oil flows, the GNP grows, the body
count slows and all the kids can have what they want for Christmas the
American public will be content with living in the dark corners. Voting for
values and electing a warmongering liar.
Everything in caps above is "fine". It preserves our security and our lush
life.
I've posted this before.. but I couldn't garner any attention for it.
Seeing as we're in a thread that *suggests* pre-knowledge.
Original story was in the London Times, but it's subscription only now.
http://www.blurcentral.co.uk/drugbin/trained.htm
=>
A former waiter in a Manchester curry house was recruited by Al-Qaeda
and trained as a hijacker in preparation for the September 11 attacks.
The British Muslim was enlisted at a mosque in Oldham and attended
terrorist training school in Pakistan. But he had second thoughts about
his suicide mission as he flew to America and surrendered to the police
after gambling away thousands of pounds given to him by Al-Qaeda.
The FBI's counter-terrorism taskforce questioned the 29-year-old man for
three weeks at Newark, New Jersey, in the spring of 2000. There, agents
refused to believe his claim that terrorists were planning to fly
passenger jets into buildings, even though he passed lie detector tests.
Other hijackers were entering the United States at about the same time
and enrolling in flight schools to learn the skills that they would
need, only 18 months later, to carry out the world's most audacious acts
of terrorism.
The failure to investigate the Briton's claims was one of a startling
series of missed opportunities that have emerged in inquiries by a US
commission examining the September 11 attacks. His case had now been
reopened amid wrangling between the FBI and British authorities.
The man, whose name is being withheld by The Sunday Times because his
life is under threat from militants, was brought back to Britain in 2000
by two FBI agents and handed to British security officials at Heathrow
airport.
He was then questioned by Special Branch and released. The FBI believes
that the British authorities failed to follow up the case or to pass on
any relevant intelligence. An urgent request to find the man after
September 11 was ignored, although Special Branch officers have said
they went back to him and took "appropriate action". The FBI has now
asked for him to become a witness in its investigation.
Born in Britain, he grew up in his family's home village in Pakistan
before returning to Oldham when he was 16. After sixth-form college he
worked at a restaurant but became addicted to gambling, running up debts
of £15,000.
He was approached at his local mosque by a recruiter who offered him
money in return for carrying out "a job". He accepted, even when he
realised what was involved.
"If your life has no colour and a mullah says you can be a hero by
dying, why not?" he said in an interview. "I think there are a lot of
frustrated Muslim youths in Britain who feel the same way."
He travelled to Lahore, where he taught how to carry out a hijacking and
was familiarised with the inside of a Boeing cockpit. "I knew they
wanted me to do some kind of operation in which I would die, but my life
was such a mess that in my mind I was already dead," he said.
"At that time, if they had told me to strap a bomb to my body and blow
myself up I would have done it as easily as taking a glass of water to
drink."
On his return to Britain he was given a further £5,000 and then sent to
New York, where he was told that he would be met at the airport.
But he had got married and during the flight thoughts of his wife and
baby helped to change his mind. He gave his contact the slip and instead
of going through with the mission, he took a bus to Atlantic City, where
he lost his money in casinos and then gave himself up.
<=
HELLO!, HELLO!
What is wrong with this picture?
-A
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 07:44:45 PM |
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"Absolute Zero" <amycaton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cq00bp$4qt$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
I've posted this before.. but I couldn't garner any attention for it.
Seeing as we're in a thread that *suggests* pre-knowledge.
Original story was in the London Times, but it's subscription only now.
http://www.blurcentral.co.uk/drugbin/trained.htm
=>
A former waiter in a Manchester curry house was recruited by Al-Qaeda
and trained as a hijacker in preparation for the September 11 attacks.
The British Muslim was enlisted at a mosque in Oldham and attended
terrorist training school in Pakistan. But he had second thoughts about
his suicide mission as he flew to America and surrendered to the police
after gambling away thousands of pounds given to him by Al-Qaeda.
The FBI's counter-terrorism taskforce questioned the 29-year-old man for
three weeks at Newark, New Jersey, in the spring of 2000. There, agents
refused to believe his claim that terrorists were planning to fly
passenger jets into buildings, even though he passed lie detector tests.
Other hijackers were entering the United States at about the same time
and enrolling in flight schools to learn the skills that they would
need, only 18 months later, to carry out the world's most audacious acts
of terrorism.
The failure to investigate the Briton's claims was one of a startling
series of missed opportunities that have emerged in inquiries by a US
commission examining the September 11 attacks. His case had now been
reopened amid wrangling between the FBI and British authorities.
The man, whose name is being withheld by The Sunday Times because his
life is under threat from militants, was brought back to Britain in 2000
by two FBI agents and handed to British security officials at Heathrow
airport.
He was then questioned by Special Branch and released. The FBI believes
that the British authorities failed to follow up the case or to pass on
any relevant intelligence. An urgent request to find the man after
September 11 was ignored, although Special Branch officers have said
they went back to him and took "appropriate action". The FBI has now
asked for him to become a witness in its investigation.
Born in Britain, he grew up in his family's home village in Pakistan
before returning to Oldham when he was 16. After sixth-form college he
worked at a restaurant but became addicted to gambling, running up debts
of £15,000.
He was approached at his local mosque by a recruiter who offered him
money in return for carrying out "a job". He accepted, even when he
realised what was involved.
"If your life has no colour and a mullah says you can be a hero by
dying, why not?" he said in an interview. "I think there are a lot of
frustrated Muslim youths in Britain who feel the same way."
He travelled to Lahore, where he taught how to carry out a hijacking and
was familiarised with the inside of a Boeing cockpit. "I knew they
wanted me to do some kind of operation in which I would die, but my life
was such a mess that in my mind I was already dead," he said.
"At that time, if they had told me to strap a bomb to my body and blow
myself up I would have done it as easily as taking a glass of water to
drink."
On his return to Britain he was given a further £5,000 and then sent to
New York, where he was told that he would be met at the airport.
But he had got married and during the flight thoughts of his wife and
baby helped to change his mind. He gave his contact the slip and instead
of going through with the mission, he took a bus to Atlantic City, where
he lost his money in casinos and then gave himself up.
<=
HELLO!, HELLO!
What is wrong with this picture?
-A
Fifty or sixty years from now we may know more about the government and 9/11
just as we now know more about Roosevelt, the government and Pearl Harbor.
I guess I'm echoing what you're probably thinking.
Umm, trying not to overstate things here. :-)
.
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| User: "Absolute Zero" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 08:31:26 PM |
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John F Lemke wrote:
"Absolute Zero" <amycaton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cq00bp$4qt$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
I've posted this before.. but I couldn't garner any attention for it.
Seeing as we're in a thread that *suggests* pre-knowledge.
Original story was in the London Times, but it's subscription only now.
http://www.blurcentral.co.uk/drugbin/trained.htm
=>
A former waiter in a Manchester curry house was recruited by Al-Qaeda
and trained as a hijacker in preparation for the September 11 attacks.
The British Muslim was enlisted at a mosque in Oldham and attended
terrorist training school in Pakistan. But he had second thoughts about
his suicide mission as he flew to America and surrendered to the police
after gambling away thousands of pounds given to him by Al-Qaeda.
The FBI's counter-terrorism taskforce questioned the 29-year-old man for
three weeks at Newark, New Jersey, in the spring of 2000. There, agents
refused to believe his claim that terrorists were planning to fly
passenger jets into buildings, even though he passed lie detector tests.
Other hijackers were entering the United States at about the same time
and enrolling in flight schools to learn the skills that they would
need, only 18 months later, to carry out the world's most audacious acts
of terrorism.
The failure to investigate the Briton's claims was one of a startling
series of missed opportunities that have emerged in inquiries by a US
commission examining the September 11 attacks. His case had now been
reopened amid wrangling between the FBI and British authorities.
The man, whose name is being withheld by The Sunday Times because his
life is under threat from militants, was brought back to Britain in 2000
by two FBI agents and handed to British security officials at Heathrow
airport.
He was then questioned by Special Branch and released. The FBI believes
that the British authorities failed to follow up the case or to pass on
any relevant intelligence. An urgent request to find the man after
September 11 was ignored, although Special Branch officers have said
they went back to him and took "appropriate action". The FBI has now
asked for him to become a witness in its investigation.
Born in Britain, he grew up in his family's home village in Pakistan
before returning to Oldham when he was 16. After sixth-form college he
worked at a restaurant but became addicted to gambling, running up debts
of £15,000.
He was approached at his local mosque by a recruiter who offered him
money in return for carrying out "a job". He accepted, even when he
realised what was involved.
"If your life has no colour and a mullah says you can be a hero by
dying, why not?" he said in an interview. "I think there are a lot of
frustrated Muslim youths in Britain who feel the same way."
He travelled to Lahore, where he taught how to carry out a hijacking and
was familiarised with the inside of a Boeing cockpit. "I knew they
wanted me to do some kind of operation in which I would die, but my life
was such a mess that in my mind I was already dead," he said.
"At that time, if they had told me to strap a bomb to my body and blow
myself up I would have done it as easily as taking a glass of water to
drink."
On his return to Britain he was given a further £5,000 and then sent to
New York, where he was told that he would be met at the airport.
But he had got married and during the flight thoughts of his wife and
baby helped to change his mind. He gave his contact the slip and instead
of going through with the mission, he took a bus to Atlantic City, where
he lost his money in casinos and then gave himself up.
<=
HELLO!, HELLO!
What is wrong with this picture?
-A
Fifty or sixty years from now we may know more about the government and 9/11
just as we now know more about Roosevelt, the government and Pearl Harbor.
We *may* not have to wait that long...
I guess I'm echoing what you're probably thinking.
I think you are.
Umm, trying not to overstate things here. :-)
Thanks John.
-A
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 09:23:36 PM |
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"Absolute Zero" <amycaton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cq04lh$4qt$4@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
John F Lemke wrote:
Fifty or sixty years from now we may know more about the government and
9/11
just as we now know more about Roosevelt, the government and Pearl
Harbor.
We *may* not have to wait that long...
I guess I'm echoing what you're probably thinking.
I think you are.
Umm, trying not to overstate things here. :-)
Thanks John.
-A
Well, once again let me say thank YOU. And not just for the information you
bring the group but for the occasional, highly efficient and effective
*****-whuppins. :-)
.
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 07:36:33 PM |
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What is wrong with this picture?
Political correctness says to tolerate all cultures even ones that bomb
buildings
Original Usama/Atta plan: 25 or so planes and targets in LA too -
people chickened out.
Source: Usama bin Laden 'the turd.' CNN text
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| User: "Absolute Zero" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 07:44:00 PM |
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Michael Johnathan McDonald wrote:
What is wrong with this picture?
Political correctness says to tolerate all cultures even ones that bomb
buildings
Original Usama/Atta plan: 25 or so planes and targets in LA too -
people chickened out.
Source: Usama bin Laden 'the turd.' CNN text
What is wrong with this picture:
A recruit hands himself over to the FBI, telling of a plan to fly
passenger aircraft into buildings, passes lie detector tests and
....................... NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH.
-A
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| User: "R. Foreman" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
18 Dec 2004 07:12:17 PM |
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Absolute Zero <amycaton@hotmail.com> Spat the Words
Michael Johnathan McDonald wrote:
What is wrong with this picture?
Political correctness says to tolerate all cultures even ones that bomb
buildings
Original Usama/Atta plan: 25 or so planes and targets in LA too -
people chickened out.
Source: Usama bin Laden 'the turd.' CNN text
What is wrong with this picture:
A recruit hands himself over to the FBI, telling of a plan to fly
passenger aircraft into buildings, passes lie detector tests and
...................... NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH.
They may have done something, like file a report, send memos
to dept heads, etc. Reports out of DC indicated the Clinton
administration was on high alert against terrorist activities
toward the end of his 2nd term. Then Bush got into office and
he decided to demote Richard Clarke, the terrorist czar, to a
non-cabinet level position so he had no access to the president.
-A
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 07:43:30 PM |
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I'm with ya. Breathless.
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| User: "MonsieurStat" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 07:04:32 PM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:lIedncIuQvkF4l7cRVn-jg@locallink.net...
"Absolute Zero" <amycaton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cpvseo$6hj$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
jha_amin@yahoo.com wrote:
Griffin's book is titled The New Pearl Harbor for two reasons. One,
because that's what Bush wrote in his diary on the evening of Sept. 11:
"The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today." But also
because members of the Bush administration in 2000 helped author the
document, Project for the New American Century, which opined it would
be difficult to galvanize Americans to support military expansion in
Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere unless a "new Pearl Harbor" occurred.
Yep, I'm sure people around here are utterly bored with my repeated
posting of that section of the PNAC document in upper-case.
What the heck, ONE... MORE... TIME...
"THE US HAS FOR DECADES SOUGHT TO PLAY A MORE PERMANENT ROLE IN GULF
REGIONAL SECURITY. WHILE THE UNRESOLVED CONFLICT WITH IRAQ PROVIDES THE
IMMEDIATE JUSTIFICATION, THE NEED FOR A SUBSTANTIAL AMERICAN FORCE
PRESENCE IN THE GULF TRANSCENDS THE ISSUE OF THE REGIME OF SADDAM
HUSSEIN."
"THE PROCESS OF TRANSFORMATION IS LIKELY TO BE A LONG ONE ABSENT SOME
CATASTROPHIC AND CATALYSING EVENT -- LIKE A NEW PEARL HARBOUR."
The former explains the latter.
Oh, and speaking of Pearl Harbor.
Woodward: (Bush at War)
"Bush wrote in his diary on the night of September 11, 2001: The Pearl
Harbour of the 21st century took place today."
It's about time this was discussed in public rather than dark corners.
-A
The sad thing is that as long as the oil flows, the GNP grows, the body
count slows and all the kids can have what they want for Christmas the
American public will be content with living in the dark corners. Voting
for
values and electing a warmongering liar.
Everything in caps above is "fine". It preserves our security and our
lush
life.
Exactly!
The fact of the matter is that as citizens of the Empire, the vast majority
of Americans (and some peripheral States), will be kept happy enough to
avoid any major internal problems. The Empire needs us to keep its global
domination machine running, and will count on our active participation to
stay in the dark, and even refuse to look at the light when it's brightly
shining right into our eyes.
The case of 9-11 mysteries is just one such case.
Stat.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 08:06:50 PM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:HmLwd.29304$%p1.1947674@news20.bellglobal.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:lIedncIuQvkF4l7cRVn-jg@locallink.net...
The sad thing is that as long as the oil flows, the GNP grows, the body
count slows and all the kids can have what they want for Christmas the
American public will be content with living in the dark corners. Voting
for
values and electing a warmongering liar.
Everything in caps above is "fine". It preserves our security and our
lush
life.
Exactly!
The fact of the matter is that as citizens of the Empire, the vast
majority
of Americans (and some peripheral States), will be kept happy enough to
avoid any major internal problems. The Empire needs us to keep its global
domination machine running, and will count on our active participation to
stay in the dark, and even refuse to look at the light when it's brightly
shining right into our eyes.
The case of 9-11 mysteries is just one such case.
Stat.
Cattle, sheep whatever you want to call us. A herd to be milked for wealth
and soldiers.
So what's wrong with insisting that the ordinary citizens of nations that we
do business with live as freely as we do? Free from foreign influence,
control, grand Caucasian imperial design. Does the control of wealth,
resources require tyrannical governments in these lands? Will "friendly
democracies" really work? Maybe the common Arab or Persian could have more
wealth, enjoy the benefits of the sale of their own resources, acquire a
greater portion than they currently have. How much would that really cost
us, Americans, in terms of freedom and prosperity?
Aren't the Iranians now in complete control of their own resources and
freely participating in the world oil market? And at what price their
freedoms when you now have a fundamentalist theocracy in control there and
that as a direct result of generations of western imperialistic abuse.
It'll be interesting to see how things change in the Middle East if and when
mutually assured destruction is introduced to the State of Israel.
Allow oil and other resource rich countries to live in a state of freedom
and prosperity similar to ours? It hasn't happened often in history.
You have to apply brutal business sense to all this, however, no utopian
dreaming. You can't compromise one penny of profit, one layer of control.
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
17 Dec 2004 09:37:28 PM |
|
|
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:1q2dna1wFsDJDF7cRVn-pA@locallink.net...
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:HmLwd.29304$%p1.1947674@news20.bellglobal.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:lIedncIuQvkF4l7cRVn-jg@locallink.net...
The sad thing is that as long as the oil flows, the GNP grows, the body
count slows and all the kids can have what they want for Christmas the
American public will be content with living in the dark corners. Voting
for
values and electing a warmongering liar.
Everything in caps above is "fine". It preserves our security and our
lush
life.
Exactly!
The fact of the matter is that as citizens of the Empire, the vast
majority
of Americans (and some peripheral States), will be kept happy enough to
avoid any major internal problems. The Empire needs us to keep its global
domination machine running, and will count on our active participation to
stay in the dark, and even refuse to look at the light when it's brightly
shining right into our eyes.
The case of 9-11 mysteries is just one such case.
Stat.
Cattle, sheep whatever you want to call us. A herd to be milked for
wealth
and soldiers.
As hard as it is to admit, we're mainly just that - but only most of the
time. Contrary to real cattle, we do have the power to think, communicate,
and plan to change things, and we do sometimes. But it seems that we always
fall back to our more natural state, which is being a herd of cattle,
following our leaders to supposedly greener pastures ;-)
So what's wrong with insisting that the ordinary citizens of nations that
we
do business with live as freely as we do? Free from foreign influence,
control, grand Caucasian imperial design. Does the control of wealth,
resources require tyrannical governments in these lands? Will "friendly
democracies" really work? Maybe the common Arab or Persian could have
more
wealth, enjoy the benefits of the sale of their own resources, acquire a
greater portion than they currently have. How much would that really cost
us, Americans, in terms of freedom and prosperity?
I think in terms of freedom, Americans can enjoy even greater freedoms if
that was to happen.
In terms of prosperity, it would be a totally different ball game.
The present political logic of United States - and many other countries - is
mainly dictated by economy. A very important element in economy are of
course corporations, who think mostly in terms of revenues and profits.
Corporations are responsible for a great portion of our collective economic
prosperity, by putting in place mechanisms to exploit resources, manufacture
products, and offer services. In theory, these are all good things, but
unfortunately in practice what we have today are huge industries whose
mission is the destruction, rather than creation of wealth. Most obvious
example is the whole defense industries, weapons manufacturing and so forth,
representing close to a quarter of US economy. Imagine that all of a sudden
everyone on the planet stopped buying and using weapons. We would have riots
all over the US...
Aren't the Iranians now in complete control of their own resources and
freely participating in the world oil market? And at what price their
freedoms when you now have a fundamentalist theocracy in control there and
that as a direct result of generations of western imperialistic abuse.
Iran's case is a paradox. While the country has been overtaken by religious
fundamentalists (Islamic versions of Pat Robertsons and Jerry Fallwells),
there has been a considerable evolution towards democracy, free speech, and
respect of fundamental human rights, in the past 25 years. This is of course
a direct result of grass root activities and popular movements.
Fundamentalists have been forced to give up more and more control, and they
continue to do so at a greater rate. Fundamentalists' Western phobia,
coupled with US economic sanctions have actually turned out to benefit Iran
in fronts such as independence, not only economically, but culturally as
well. On the economic side, this has resulted today in an Iran in a much
better shape than 25 years ago. For example, they are pumping about 40% less
oil today than they were during the last few years of Shah's regime, but
have had the highest economic growth in the region for the past 4-5 years.
It just shows that when countries control their own resources, even in far
from ideal situations, they can still prosper more than when they are
controlled by foreign forces (All this of course has to stop, otherwise Iran
could actually become a model to follow for other countries - a very bad
thing that simply cannot be allowed)
Stat.
It'll be interesting to see how things change in the Middle East if and
when
mutually assured destruction is introduced to the State of Israel.
Allow oil and other resource rich countries to live in a state of freedom
and prosperity similar to ours? It hasn't happened often in history.
You have to apply brutal business sense to all this, however, no utopian
dreaming. You can't compromise one penny of profit, one layer of control.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
21 Dec 2004 09:33:10 AM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MXpxd.3189$GK5.312451@news20.bellglobal.com...
Historically, making money was considered a rather vile activity in the
old
Europe. The old European Aristocrats for example looked down on traders,
shopkeepers, brokers, and other money making professions. With the birth
of
Capitalism and valorization of commerce (and massive bankruptcy of
Aristocrats in Europe) this started to change slowly, and was completely
turned around in the New World.
In fact, in America, the ability to make money was equated with being
favored by God himself. Why else would someone become rich and prosper if
it
was not God's will?
Culture affecting theology.
To this day, social standing of the rich goes beyond
their money alone. They are considered as a sort of supermans. The same
superhuman attributes are of course projected into corporations. We simply
admire a successful company. We love to find out how they did it, who was
behind it, what saintly thoughts and ideas provoked their successes, etc.
Successful companies are a sort of modern day heroes.
It's that free-enterprise heart and mindset.
I don't know if we can apply some kind of morality to money making in the
short term. We can surely legislate corporations further to favor a more
equitable division of riches. Personally, I am not too much in favor of
that, but I do think governments have to act as a watch dog to make sure
the
pursuit of profits by corporations doesn't lead them into crimes against
humanity, as is the case now.
That's certainly a good point.
As it stands, corporations have the green
light to do anything they please. They enslave children in third world
countries to produce goods, rape the environment to extract oil, cobalt,
etc. And if somebody complains, they threaten to leave and set up shop
somewhere else.
Difficult to legislate a stop to that unless those dwelling in the greener
pastures come to recognize the problems and actually vote with their
dollars. Many point to the new "democracy", the form of government within
the new corporate state where people influence corporate policy with how
they spend their money. It takes an informed market to do that.
Every now and then corporate policy is shaken by an uprising in the general
populace. This is good. But with corporate owned media these occurences are
few and far between.
This is where the conservative ideologues, the propaganda swillers,
those
ignorant of history become blind. No longer demonized by British or
American
oil interests Iran seems to be evolving toward a modern free and open
society. This isn't surprising if you read about their history and
culture.
It's a beautiful but sad story in many ways, if I'm getting the story
right.
You are right, and I am very pleased that you know so much about a far off
country like Iran.
Hopefully an informed public would help to shape policy. It's better to
learn the lessons of the past and share rather than sit idly by chewing my
cud. :-)
Things of course aren't rose there, but there is more
hope now than before. It's a country with over 70% of its population below
30 years of age (that's something like 50 million very young people). No
fundamentalist force can contain all that youth energy. Also, history has
always been a guiding light for us. Iranians have gone through many
upheavals in their history, including several invasions some lasting over
a
hundred years. I guess the song "I will Survive" could very well become an
Iranian theme song ;-)
From my reading Iranians and their culture are to be greatly admired, their
current form of government nothwithstanding. Great religious, intellectual
and philosophical history. A very courageous and enterprising people as
well. I'd defy anyone to study Iranian history in any depth and not be
moved.
The situation in the whole region, especially relations with the West has
degraded so much now that it is almost impossible to fix it. I think
things
have to get a lot worse before they get better.
Sad but unavoidable, perhaps, given the greed, error and lack of vision in
the corridors of power here.
Is a more enlightened Western attitude toward oil rich countries to be
seen
in the future? Not as long as you have extremist fundamentalist
corporate
empire builders in control of the American government. There'll be an
agenda for Western hegemony until these fine "christian" faithful
understand
that they can't serve their God and money. I doubt that they understand
their God at all.
"America rules"? The slogan of fools whose insight into history comes
from
propaganda mills.
Perhaps. But on the other hand maybe after so many trials and errors
attempted by different peoples - including Iranians of long long time
ago -
America has at last found the magic formula to hegemony. Already having
found an indefinable, unbeatable, and ever present enemy in the name of
*TERRORISM* is an achievement that none of the other empires had managed.
Well said. It's too bad that the cattle in this country have difficulty
seeing this truth. We'll be spending our children and our treasure for
quite some time to come in this charade manipulated by the elite in this
country.
While "defending the homeland" and "spreading democracy and freedom abroad"
we'll be serving the quest for wealth and power of the new aristocracy, this
Anglo-American drive for control of the world's resources.
Domination and control have driven European man for centuries. There's no
room for equitable and just dealings with people that own the resources that
manufacture wealth. Now that we're the world's only superpower this quest
will become even stronger, the propaganda more and more creative.
Monsieur Stat, your contributions are highly valued out here. Please
hang
around for awhile. If you ever catch me in error or think that my own
understanding could use some enhancement, fire away.
Likewise here John. I am pretty glad to be reading messages on APN, and
sometimes adding my own. It will be a pleasure for me to find and point
out
your errors to you :-)
Most excellent. If I'm to be well informed then it's good to have exchanges
with knowledgable people. It's grand to have contact with someone of your
background. APN'ers would be well advised to pay close attention to your
posts. Nothing much more valuable in these times than an unowned and
insightful voice.
but please return the favor. I used to be a regular
Usenet contributor way back in the days of Windows 3.1. equipped with
lightening fast 9600 baud modems. I understood then that you cannot change
the world by writing messages to the Usenet. Nor can we influence the
course
of history or the actions of others in any significat way (there are
better
means for these things out there). But Usenet does provide us a platform
where we can develop a better understanding of different subjects of
interest to us, have our ideas challenged, and of course record it all so
we
can go back and look to see if we are moving forward or just in circles.
Excellent, well said again.
So let me also thank you for your contributions which I have found in the
short time I've been here of excellent quality.
Ah, but you're too kind. :-) I've been blessed to have learned much "out
here".
Best,
Stat.
Best back................
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
21 Dec 2004 11:07:43 PM |
|
|
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:CMydnfMvtfoM31XcRVn-pg@locallink.net...
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MXpxd.3189$GK5.312451@news20.bellglobal.com...
Historically, making money was considered a rather vile activity in the
old
Europe. The old European Aristocrats for example looked down on traders,
shopkeepers, brokers, and other money making professions. With the birth
of
Capitalism and valorization of commerce (and massive bankruptcy of
Aristocrats in Europe) this started to change slowly, and was completely
turned around in the New World.
In fact, in America, the ability to make money was equated with being
favored by God himself. Why else would someone become rich and prosper if
it
was not God's will?
Culture affecting theology.
There was also an evolution in the religion itself. Protestantism was just
getting strong in Europe - discarding a lot of the old values such as poor =
pious. Which was indecently promoted by the Church to make people do away
with their little wealth in all willingness.
Religion in America was always strong, but a very private matter until
fairly recently. The careful seperation of State and church made religion to
some extent a positive force in American society. That has unfortunately
changed now, and if history is any indication, there is no going back.
As the great Ayatollah Sistani says: politics corrupt religion, which is why
they should not mixed.
To this day, social standing of the rich goes beyond
their money alone. They are considered as a sort of supermans. The same
superhuman attributes are of course projected into corporations. We
simply
admire a successful company. We love to find out how they did it, who was
behind it, what saintly thoughts and ideas provoked their successes, etc.
Successful companies are a sort of modern day heroes.
It's that free-enterprise heart and mindset.
Free-enterprise is of course a great thing. At least one of the best social
models invented. But as anything else, when taken to extremes, it loses its
initial objectives, going exactly in the opposite direction that it was
meant to go.
I don't know if we can apply some kind of morality to money making in the
short term. We can surely legislate corporations further to favor a more
equitable division of riches. Personally, I am not too much in favor of
that, but I do think governments have to act as a watch dog to make sure
the
pursuit of profits by corporations doesn't lead them into crimes against
humanity, as is the case now.
That's certainly a good point.
As it stands, corporations have the green
light to do anything they please. They enslave children in third world
countries to produce goods, rape the environment to extract oil, cobalt,
etc. And if somebody complains, they threaten to leave and set up shop
somewhere else.
Difficult to legislate a stop to that unless those dwelling in the greener
pastures come to recognize the problems and actually vote with their
dollars. Many point to the new "democracy", the form of government within
the new corporate state where people influence corporate policy with how
they spend their money. It takes an informed market to do that.
Every now and then corporate policy is shaken by an uprising in the
general
populace. This is good. But with corporate owned media these occurences
are
few and far between.
Fully agree. Advertising in itself has become an art and a science. Very
hard to stay informed and objective in this environment.
This is where the conservative ideologues, the propaganda swillers,
those
ignorant of history become blind. No longer demonized by British or
American
oil interests Iran seems to be evolving toward a modern free and open
society. This isn't surprising if you read about their history and
culture.
It's a beautiful but sad story in many ways, if I'm getting the story
right.
You are right, and I am very pleased that you know so much about a far
off
country like Iran.
Hopefully an informed public would help to shape policy. It's better to
learn the lessons of the past and share rather than sit idly by chewing my
cud. :-)
Things of course aren't rose there, but there is more
hope now than before. It's a country with over 70% of its population
below
30 years of age (that's something like 50 million very young people). No
fundamentalist force can contain all that youth energy. Also, history has
always been a guiding light for us. Iranians have gone through many
upheavals in their history, including several invasions some lasting over
a
hundred years. I guess the song "I will Survive" could very well become
an
Iranian theme song ;-)
From my reading Iranians and their culture are to be greatly admired,
their
current form of government nothwithstanding. Great religious,
intellectual
and philosophical history. A very courageous and enterprising people as
well. I'd defy anyone to study Iranian history in any depth and not be
moved.
The situation in the whole region, especially relations with the West has
degraded so much now that it is almost impossible to fix it. I think
things
have to get a lot worse before they get better.
Sad but unavoidable, perhaps, given the greed, error and lack of vision in
the corridors of power here.
Also all the anger and hate over there - not to mention the all important
shift towrds fundamentalism which makes blind robots out of ordinarily
decent people. It's a sad world indeed.
Is a more enlightened Western attitude toward oil rich countries to be
seen
in the future? Not as long as you have extremist fundamentalist
corporate
empire builders in control of the American government. There'll be an
agenda for Western hegemony until these fine "christian" faithful
understand
that they can't serve their God and money. I doubt that they
understand
their God at all.
"America rules"? The slogan of fools whose insight into history comes
from
propaganda mills.
Perhaps. But on the other hand maybe after so many trials and errors
attempted by different peoples - including Iranians of long long time
ago -
America has at last found the magic formula to hegemony. Already having
found an indefinable, unbeatable, and ever present enemy in the name of
*TERRORISM* is an achievement that none of the other empires had managed.
Well said. It's too bad that the cattle in this country have difficulty
seeing this truth. We'll be spending our children and our treasure for
quite some time to come in this charade manipulated by the elite in this
country.
While "defending the homeland" and "spreading democracy and freedom
abroad"
we'll be serving the quest for wealth and power of the new aristocracy,
this
Anglo-American drive for control of the world's resources.
Domination and control have driven European man for centuries. There's no
room for equitable and just dealings with people that own the resources
that
manufacture wealth. Now that we're the world's only superpower this quest
will become even stronger, the propaganda more and more creative.
And it's always been like that. Empire after empire: Greeks, Persians,
Romans, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, French, British.... none of them were
stoppable, until they decayed from within.
Monsieur Stat, your contributions are highly valued out here. Please
hang
around for awhile. If you ever catch me in error or think that my own
understanding could use some enhancement, fire away.
Likewise here John. I am pretty glad to be reading messages on APN, and
sometimes adding my own. It will be a pleasure for me to find and point
out
your errors to you :-)
Most excellent. If I'm to be well informed then it's good to have
exchanges
with knowledgable people. It's grand to have contact with someone of your
background. APN'ers would be well advised to pay close attention to your
posts. Nothing much more valuable in these times than an unowned and
insightful voice.
Now you're being way too kind:-) Thank you. I am mainly here for
entertainment purposes, and sharpening my spelling skills. I do very much
enjoy exchanging and learning from people like yourself. At the end, it
gives me hope.
Thank you,
Stat.
but please return the favor. I used to be a regular
Usenet contributor way back in the days of Windows 3.1. equipped with
lightening fast 9600 baud modems. I understood then that you cannot
change
the world by writing messages to the Usenet. Nor can we influence the
course
of history or the actions of others in any significat way (there are
better
means for these things out there). But Usenet does provide us a platform
where we can develop a better understanding of different subjects of
interest to us, have our ideas challenged, and of course record it all so
we
can go back and look to see if we are moving forward or just in circles.
Excellent, well said again.
So let me also thank you for your contributions which I have found in the
short time I've been here of excellent quality.
Ah, but you're too kind. :-) I've been blessed to have learned much "out
here".
Best,
Stat.
Best back................
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
22 Dec 2004 11:32:17 PM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:zi7yd.10210$Z%3.604630@news20.bellglobal.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:CMydnfMvtfoM31XcRVn-pg@locallink.net...
Culture affecting theology.
There was also an evolution in the religion itself. Protestantism was just
getting strong in Europe - discarding a lot of the old values such as poor
=
pious. Which was indecently promoted by the Church to make people do away
with their little wealth in all willingness.
Agreed. The Protestants, I believe ended up taking it too far in the other
direction.
We're supposed to be blessed thru obediance, I guess, but being rich doesn't
make us righteous. A lot of what I see is the desire for wealth, material
things, definitely corrupting spirituality.
Religion in America was always strong, but a very private matter until
fairly recently. The careful seperation of State and church made religion
to
some extent a positive force in American society. That has unfortunately
changed now, and if history is any indication, there is no going back.
It could be that Christians have lost the focus and thus the battle for the
heart. Lost sight of where the real change is supposed to be made and are
responding politically, "in the world". That's just my little quirky thing
there.
As the great Ayatollah Sistani says: politics corrupt religion, which is
why
they should not mixed.
I'd read that Ayatollah Sistani was a wise and brilliant man.
So we have an Islamic heathen that's wiser than Pat Robertson. Imagine
that. :-)
It's that free-enterprise heart and mindset.
Free-enterprise is of course a great thing. At least one of the best
social
models invented. But as anything else, when taken to extremes, it loses
its
initial objectives, going exactly in the opposite direction that it was
meant to go.
That's where the heart, morality, comes into play on a broad basis. We're
to care as much about our brothers as we care about ourselves, ideally.
Communism or capitalism would work if that was the general heart condition
of the populace. "In the real world" capitalism is indeed the better system
as long as proper power is held by the populace.
The situation in the whole region, especially relations with the West
has
degraded so much now that it is almost impossible to fix it. I think
things
have to get a lot worse before they get better.
Sad but unavoidable, perhaps, given the greed, error and lack of vision
in
the corridors of power here.
Also all the anger and hate over there - not to mention the all important
shift towrds fundamentalism which makes blind robots out of ordinarily
decent people. It's a sad world indeed.
I guess extremism thrives under pressure. Invasion being one of those
pressures.
The record of exploitation and abuse the West has established, and not just
in the Middle East, would naturally lead to violent reaction. Americans did
the same thing against the British 225 years ago. Insurgents threw tea into
Boston Harbor, started a revolution against imperial power.
What could we possibly do now to quell that anger? Will a "free domocracy"
in Iraq make the Islamic world friendly toward us? How does one drain the
swamp that breeds the "disease"? Push for reforms in other Arab nations?
Push Israel into a fair and just peace with a Palestinian State? Pack up
our fricking tanks and go home? :-)
Domination and control have driven European man for centuries. There's
no
room for equitable and just dealings with people that own the resources
that
manufacture wealth. Now that we're the world's only superpower this
quest
will become even stronger, the propaganda more and more creative.
And it's always been like that. Empire after empire: Greeks, Persians,
Romans, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, French, British.... none of them were
stoppable, until they decayed from within.
Well you can see signs of societal decay right here on APN. :-)
We may overextend ourselves also. Iraq, Afghanistan. What can we do
militarily if Iran or Syria Then again, perhaps those two pearls, Iraq and
Afghanistan, will be all we need for the next 20 years.
I think George Bush is an extremist. An extremist who managed to use old
fashioned American values to garner the support of a majority of the
populace. That great sea of red across the center of America that someone
on Saturday Night Live referred to last week as "Dumfuckistan".
There may be more moderate people in the American Establishment taking power
in the future, especially if Shrub messes this up. At some point someone
has to see that the old methods need to change. Hopefully before another
100,000 people die in an invasion, or another country falls into the grip of
an Islamic theocracy, or a nuclear bomb goes off in New York.
It's grand to have contact with someone of your
background. APN'ers would be well advised to pay close attention to
your
posts. Nothing much more valuable in these times than an unowned and
insightful voice.
Now you're being way too kind :-)
Yeah, way too kind and truthful. Americans are woefully undereducated,
woefully overpropagandized. They need to at least hear the voice of someone
with an intimate knowledge of Persia and the Middle East.
Thank you. I am mainly here for
entertainment purposes, and sharpening my spelling skills.
You don't cheat with your spellchecker like I do? That's the American way.
:-)
I've enjoyed the challenges here, forced to maintain and hone a little
intellectual discipline, and mostly to learn. A mind is a terrible thing to
waste in darkness.
I do very much
enjoy exchanging and learning from people like yourself. At the end, it
gives me hope.
Well, hopefull we all learn from one another and the exchanges will help
hope grow.
Thank you,
Stat.
And thank you...............
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
23 Dec 2004 09:46:50 AM |
|
|
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:kb-dnRkakqcixVfcRVn-hQ@locallink.net...
"MonsieurStat" <monsieurstat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:zi7yd.10210$Z%3.604630@news20.bellglobal.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:CMydnfMvtfoM31XcRVn-pg@locallink.net...
Culture affecting theology.
There was also an evolution in the religion itself. Protestantism was
just
getting strong in Europe - discarding a lot of the old values such as
poor
=
pious. Which was indecently promoted by the Church to make people do away
with their little wealth in all willingness.
Agreed. The Protestants, I believe ended up taking it too far in the
other
direction.
We're supposed to be blessed thru obediance, I guess, but being rich
doesn't
make us righteous. A lot of what I see is the desire for wealth, material
things, definitely corrupting spirituality.
Religion in America was always strong, but a very private matter until
fairly recently. The careful seperation of State and church made religion
to
some extent a positive force in American society. That has unfortunately
changed now, and if history is any indication, there is no going back.
It could be that Christians have lost the focus and thus the battle for
the
heart. Lost sight of where the real change is supposed to be made and are
responding politically, "in the world". That's just my little quirky
thing
there.
Interesting....
As the great Ayatollah Sistani says: politics corrupt religion, which is
why
they should not mixed.
I'd read that Ayatollah Sistani was a wise and brilliant man.
And very practical. He did get involve to defuse the standoff between Sadr
and the U.S. army. At the time some were even saying he should run for
president!
http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_sistani.php
So we have an Islamic heathen that's wiser than Pat Robertson. Imagine
that. :-)
Oh yes - not the same type. Ayatollah Khamenei in Iran is more in Pat's
league :-)
It's that free-enterprise heart and mindset.
Free-enterprise is of course a great thing. At least one of the best
social
models invented. But as anything else, when taken to extremes, it loses
its
initial objectives, going exactly in the opposite direction that it was
meant to go.
That's where the heart, morality, comes into play on a broad basis. We're
to care as much about our brothers as we care about ourselves, ideally.
Absolutly. Victory of the heart!
But you know of course that is almost *fundamentalistlically* idealistic :-)
Communism or capitalism would work if that was the general heart condition
of the populace. "In the real world" capitalism is indeed the better
system
as long as proper power is held by the populace.
The situation in the whole region, especially relations with the West
has
degraded so much now that it is almost impossible to fix it. I think
things
have to get a lot worse before they get better.
Sad but unavoidable, perhaps, given the greed, error and lack of vision
in
the corridors of power here.
Also all the anger and hate over there - not to mention the all important
shift towrds fundamentalism which makes blind robots out of ordinarily
decent people. It's a sad world indeed.
I guess extremism thrives under pressure. Invasion being one of those
pressures.
The record of exploitation and abuse the West has established, and not
just
in the Middle East, would naturally lead to violent reaction. Americans
did
the same thing against the British 225 years ago. Insurgents threw tea
into
Boston Harbor, started a revolution against imperial power.
What could we possibly do now to quell that anger? Will a "free
domocracy"
in Iraq make the Islamic world friendly toward us? How does one drain
the
swamp that breeds the "disease"? Push for reforms in other Arab nations?
Push Israel into a fair and just peace with a Palestinian State? Pack up
our fricking tanks and go home? :-)
Elections might help to stabilize Iraq. They might also make it worse.
It will be all a question of how things are managed. Bush administration has
been incredibly incompetent in handling the after invasion so far. Let's
hope the new people Bush is bringing on are more competent, and the
remaining ones are fast learners.
Elections won't bring democracy to Iraq though. Democracy is more than
elections. Democracy is a social process. The top-down approach wouldn't
work, it goes completely against the basic philosophy of democracy which is
bottom-up. A good government could jump start that social process, by
providing the necessary means and putting in place the mechanisms for
creating democratically-based institutions, and culture among the
population. It takes years - indeed generations - if all goes well. It's a
very fragile process that can be delayed, even completely derailed, by all
kinds of external and internal forces. Look at all the countries that went
democratic in the early 60's. After 40 years, most have either failed or
still have a lot of catching up to do.
And it is not necessarily the best system for Iraq. Or any country for that
matter. In *true* and stable democracies, the genral population has an
important say in how things are managed involving their daily lives, and
immediate needs. For most everything that has to do with long term, deep and
permanent decision making, the general population is basically left on the
side line. The phrase "unpopular decision" which is quite popular among
Western politicians, basically means that the elected representatives make
decisions that are undemocratic. Such as going to war in Iraq... (perhaps
the only country in the U.S. led coalition where that decision was
democratic was in the US itself. By contrast, the majority of Great
Britain's population was against GB's going to war - probably over 60% - in
most of the other countries, opposition to war was over 80, even 90%).
Domination and control have driven European man for centuries. There's
no
room for equitable and just dealings with people that own the resources
that
manufacture wealth. Now that we're the world's only superpower this
quest
will become even stronger, the propaganda more and more creative.
And it's always been like that. Empire after empire: Greeks, Persians,
Romans, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, French, British.... none of them were
stoppable, until they decayed from within.
Well you can see signs of societal decay right here on APN. :-)
We may overextend ourselves also. Iraq, Afghanistan. What can we do
militarily if Iran or Syria Then again, perhaps those two pearls, Iraq
and
Afghanistan, will be all we need for the next 20 years.
That would be the wise thing. US seems to have used a major war every 15
years or so to boost its economy for the past - hummm - well since the
militarization of the US economy by Harry Truman in the 50's. Has these new
advantures been enough to get things going again, or should US wager a
little more for greater gains? hummmm... Decisions, decisions, decisions...
I think George Bush is an extremist. An extremist who managed to use old
fashioned American values to garner the support of a majority of the
populace. That great sea of red across the center of America that someone
on Saturday Night Live referred to last week as "Dumfuckistan".
LOL
I think Americans made the right decision electing Bush back to the office.
He has to finish this job. You can't change presidents at this stage of the
game. Besides, Kerry had almost a carbon copy plan, so there would have been
no significant difference today or a year from now in Iraq if Kerry had been
elected. When it comes to really BIG decisions, I'd say even the president
of the United States doesn't have much to say in the matter:-) which may be
a good thing right now, because Bush is kind of reckless and could get
everybody into a lot of trouble. He'd be sorry and everything afterwards,
but that would not be of great help.
There may be more moderate people in the American Establishment taking
power
in the future, especially if Shrub messes this up. At some point someone
has to see that the old methods need to change. Hopefully before another
100,000 people die in an invasion, or another country falls into the grip
of
an Islamic theocracy, or a nuclear bomb goes off in New York.
I think the second worst thing that could happen is that U.S. attacks Iran.
The Mullahs panick, go crazy, and fire up their 3000+ conventional missiles,
and destroy every oil field in the middle east. The whole industrial
machine, along with most of the world economies will go into a great shock.
This will create a chain reaction of events that will lead to widespread
anarchy - changing the world to something like the movie Mad Max II.
It's grand to have contact with someone of your
background. APN'ers would be well advised to pay close attention to
your
posts. Nothing much more valuable in these times than an unowned and
insightful voice.
Now you're being way too kind :-)
Yeah, way too kind and truthful. Americans are woefully undereducated,
woefully overpropagandized. They need to at least hear the voice of
someone
with an intimate knowledge of Persia and the Middle East.
I thank you and welcome your invitation to share what I know - which is
actually not nearly enough to qualify me as knowledgeable in these areas. I
do appreciate the compliment though ;-)
(I just LOVE Christmas:-)
Thank you. I am mainly here for
entertainment purposes, and sharpening my spelling skills.
You don't cheat with your spellchecker like I do? That's the American
way.
:-)
Oh yes.... Iranians invented spellcheckers :-)
I've enjoyed the challenges here, forced to maintain and hone a little
intellectual discipline, and mostly to learn. A mind is a terrible thing
to
waste in darkness.
I think it's good to do this every once in a while, just to see where we are
in
our thinking. You do have a very interesting and rare perspective on things.
I bet you're not even ashamed of calling yourself a liberal ;-)
I do very much
enjoy exchanging and learning from people like yourself. At the end, it
gives me hope.
Well, hopefull we all learn from one another and the exchanges will help
hope grow.
Hope was on the way... but got bumped out by FOUR MORE YEARS
(Sorry, bad joke)
Thank you,
Stat.
And thank you...............
I wish you and your loved ones a very happy holiday season and a great 2005!
Stat.
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
21 Dec 2004 08:30:35 PM |
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John wrote:
Stat wrote:
<--snip-->(hated to - but had to)
Excellent, well said again.
So let me also thank you for your
contributions which I have found in the
short time I've been here of excellent
quality.
Ah, but you're too kind. :-) I've been
blessed to have learned much "out
here".
Best,
Stat.
Best back................
I'm truly *moved* by this poast! :)
SuZanne
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
22 Dec 2004 06:41:34 AM |
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"Su Zanadu" <tugbertswife@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5050-41C8DC4B-506@storefull-3212.bay.webtv.net...
John wrote:
Stat wrote:
<--snip-->(hated to - but had to)
Excellent, well said again.
So let me also thank you for your
contributions which I have found in the
short time I've been here of excellent
quality.
Ah, but you're too kind. :-) I've been
blessed to have learned much "out
here".
Best,
Stat.
Best back................
I'm truly *moved* by this poast! :)
SuZanne
<large but limited and liberal group hug>
see how warm and loving liberals are. I'll be none of Susan's kids end up
with pantyhose addictions.
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
22 Dec 2004 10:45:29 AM |
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John wrote:
<large but limited and liberal group hug>
see how warm and loving liberals are.
That really is the truth. I see nothing but very miserable people from
that other side. What a horrible way to live your life.
Miserable and lonely!
I'll be none of Susan's kids end up with
pantyhose addictions.
OMG! :-O
Let's hope not!
I bet it's miserable and lonely over at alt.support.hose.recovery
;)
SuZanne
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
23 Dec 2004 11:56:59 AM |
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"Su Zanadu" <tugbertswife@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10246-41C9A4A9-540@storefull-3216.bay.webtv.net...
John wrote:
<large but limited and liberal group hug>
see how warm and loving liberals are.
That really is the truth. I see nothing but very miserable people from
that other side. What a horrible way to live your life.
Miserable and lonely!
I'll be none of Susan's kids end up with
pantyhose addictions.
OMG! :-O
Let's hope not!
I bet it's miserable and lonely over at alt.support.hose.recovery
;)
SuZanne
I wonder if they have knee high or sheer to waist hugs. Or maybe I just
displayed way too much knowledge.
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
23 Dec 2004 01:57:16 PM |
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John wrote:
I wonder if they have knee high or sheer
to waist hugs. Or maybe I just displayed
way too much knowledge.
ha ha!
Hey...what kind of man HASN'T been to the store to purchase those types
of feminine items for his woman?
Nope... I'd say *that* type of knowledge is a good thing.
You could slide out of the store easily and the clerk wouldn't think
anything of it. ;)
SuZanne
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| User: "MonsieurStat" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
21 Dec 2004 11:14:10 PM |
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"Su Zanadu" <tugbertswife@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5050-41C8DC4B-506@storefull-3212.bay.webtv.net...
John wrote:
Stat wrote:
<--snip-->(hated to - but had to)
Excellent, well said again.
So let me also thank you for your
contributions which I have found in the
short time I've been here of excellent
quality.
Ah, but you're too kind. :-) I've been
blessed to have learned much "out
here".
Best,
Stat.
Best back................
I'm truly *moved* by this poast! :)
SuZanne
Do we have the Christmas spirit or what???
Besting,
Stat.
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| User: "Su Zanadu" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
22 Dec 2004 10:35:54 AM |
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Stat wrote:
Do we have the Christmas spirit or
what???
I would say *most* spirited! :)
Peace and Love....It's contagious you know?
Too bad *some*.....and I'm not mentioning any names here, have
inoculated themselves against it.
Besting,
Stat.
The *best* to you too.
~::~happy holidays~::~
SuZanne
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| User: "MonsieurStat" |
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| Title: Re: Theologian asks hard questions about 9/11 |
22 Dec 2004 10:20:29 PM |
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