Well IF their "so called" arab brothers and sisters would let them live in
places like Jordon or Syria or Egypt the problem would end.

ex a écrit:

I mean, c'mon for Christ's Sakes. Even Jean can see there's absolutely
nothing productive in these actions by Israel. Does anyone wonder why they
can't eliminate terrorists in the Mid-East? Because their production numbers
are far exceeding their destruction numbers. And why? Because of this *****
.... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Nah. What I see is absolutely nothing productive in the intifada. It is the
problem from the start and nothing will happen as long as it is there.

But yes, I did express that there was no Geneva convention justification to
demolish houses that were not use for military operation. But of course, if they
were used not for shooting, but for smuggling arms, it is as bad. This has to
stop. Production numbers exceeding destruction numbers? THEN if this is true it
means it takes MORE operations. Not less. You see, the culprit is this illegal
military hardware and its use. Not the legitimate police who have get them
instead of the Fucking PA who does nothing but kiss their *****. And the shame is
tat they get money for it.

There is no road map since what is supposed to happen first is what Arafat is
determined to prevent from happening and even took out a prime minister who
would implement it. There is no more deadline, this first step is not observed.
Everything else means nothing. No obligation to do anything more than do the job
they won't do, get the terrorists. When arafat will die, and they will stop this
madness they impose on themselves, the intifada, then maybe there will be
something top do. Until then they can all kiss my *****, Europeans included.

But yes, there was some reason for concern if the Israeli consider a supreme
court edict allowing them to destroy houses which are a threat, as a permission
to destroy all houses that are on a certain path, whether they have been a
threat or not.

But the operation of getting to illegal tunnels funneling weapons is absolutely
legitimate. They need to have intelligence on it, as they need for the houses
that they demolish because they are used by militants.

Without intelligence proving their points that the dwelling has been used to
shoot at the army, or with successful search of these houses leading to actual
tunnels, they cannot demolish a home arbitrarily by the Israeli Supreme Court
judgment, nor by the Geneva convention, which would allow them to do so
otherwise no matter what the assholes who say they represent Amnesty
international (who BTW never say a word about thousands of REAL Geneva
convention violations by the palies, but constantly lie about this, taking out
of context the demolishing of homes, disregarding the part the Palies play), say
about it. They should have no credibility, and even not be accredited at all.
But I digress.

Yes there are possible abuse with houses IF they take too much latitude about
the meaning of the judgment that allows them to act for their protection, same
with the crowd control BTW, but that is a Geneva convention thing. The problem
of what can they do if gunmen hide in a crowd and shoot at them must be
addressed because THIS IS WHAT is prohibited by the Geneva convention.

The Palies have no right to do that.

And theoretically they can be taken out and it is their responsibility what
collateral damage ensues. But in practice it is not that way, the legitimate
forces cannot use overwhelming force, like a missile against gunmen in a crowd,
because the collateral damage would be disproportionate. Missile against
terrorists in a car is something else and depends upon the threat they
represent, which is usually lethal, and the alternative to get them with the
authorities in place, which is also nil, as long as Arafat and his intifada are
there.

Now, can they let these killers operate without doing anything, and let them
come close just because they use that tactic of abusing the Geneva convention?
No of course.

They must use snipers, and then, whatever collateral damage still ensues, is the
SOLE responsibility of those terrorists (& organizations) that use civilian
crowds. But they cannot use missiles or shells that are meant for carriers or
facilities against people in a crowd.

But true, they cannot solve a problem that is clearly caused by the Palies
bandits by any means they want, even if they have a right to address it with
extreme prejudice, there is a moral obligation that is also in the Geneva
convention.

Same with the houses, it borders on illegality if they demolish them at random.
But they have a right to act if these dwelling were used in military operations
against them. And that means individually each of them, it does not mean that
because one is used in a neighborhood, all houses are fair game.

It must be the specific dwelling IMO.

But in that sense it is absolutely conform with the Geneva convention.

This is what makes the amnesty people, assholes, to pretend that the Geneva
convention says the opposite of what it says, and also because they never quote
it when Palestinian terrorists violate it. they are not Amnesty international,
they are Amnesty for Palestinian Terrorists only. This is a shame.

But yes, there are limits to what Israel can do. And it is not for nothing that
the US abstained last resolution, there were also a part in the formulation of
the resolution that concerned the terrorists, mind you, it was about being
against all unacceptable violence in the area. With overtone that made them
abstain instead of voting for it, of course, but overall, it was good enough not
to be vetoed, because the attack in the crowd with a missile is illegal even in
these circumstances, even by Israeli standards I'm sure, and for once there was
a resolution they could not totally disagree on.

For once, it was on the other side, apparently. Yes.

J.

ex a écrit:

I mean, c'mon for Christ's Sakes. Even Jean can see there's absolutely
nothing productive in these actions by Israel. Does anyone wonder why
they
can't eliminate terrorists in the Mid-East? Because their production
numbers
are far exceeding their destruction numbers. And why? Because of this
*****
.... stupid, stupid, stupid.

Nah. What I see is absolutely nothing productive in the intifada. It is
the problem from the start and nothing will happen as long as it is there.

But yes, I did express that there was no Geneva convention justification
to demolish houses that were not use for military operation. But of
course, if they were used not for shooting, but for smuggling arms, it
is as bad. This has to stop. Production numbers exceeding destruction
numbers? THEN if this is true it means it takes MORE operations. Not
less. You see, the culprit is this illegal military hardware and its
use. Not the legitimate police who have get them instead of the Fucking
PA who does nothing but kiss their *****. And the shame is tat they get
money for it.

There is no road map since what is supposed to happen first is what
Arafat is determined to prevent from happening and even took out a prime
minister who would implement it. There is no more deadline, this first
step is not observed. Everything else means nothing. No obligation to do
anything more than do the job they won't do, get the terrorists. When
arafat will die, and they will stop this madness they impose on
themselves, the intifada, then maybe there will be something top do.
Until then they can all kiss my *****, Europeans included.

But yes, there was some reason for concern if the Israeli consider a
supreme court edict allowing them to destroy houses which are a threat,
as a permission to destroy all houses that are on a certain path,
whether they have been a threat or not.

But the operation of getting to illegal tunnels funneling weapons is
absolutely legitimate. They need to have intelligence on it, as they
need for the houses that they demolish because they are used by militants.

Without intelligence proving their points that the dwelling has been
used to shoot at the army, or with successful search of these houses
leading to actual tunnels, they cannot demolish a home arbitrarily by
the Israeli Supreme Court judgment, nor by the Geneva convention, which
would allow them to do so otherwise no matter what the assholes who say
they represent Amnesty international (who BTW never say a word about
thousands of REAL Geneva convention violations by the palies, but
constantly lie about this, taking out of context the demolishing of
homes, disregarding the part the Palies play), say about it. They should
have no credibility, and even not be accredited at all. But I digress.

Yes there are possible abuse with houses IF they take too much latitude
about the meaning of the judgment that allows them to act for their
protection, same with the crowd control BTW, but that is a Geneva
convention thing. The problem of what can they do if gunmen hide in a
crowd and shoot at them must be addressed because THIS IS WHAT is
prohibited by the Geneva convention.

The Palies have no right to do that.

And theoretically they can be taken out and it is their responsibility
what collateral damage ensues. But in practice it is not that way, the
legitimate forces cannot use overwhelming force, like a missile against
gunmen in a crowd, because the collateral damage would be
disproportionate. Missile against terrorists in a car is something else
and depends upon the threat they represent, which is usually lethal, and
the alternative to get them with the authorities in place, which is also
nil, as long as Arafat and his intifada are there.

Now, can they let these killers operate without doing anything, and let
them come close just because they use that tactic of abusing the Geneva
convention? No of course.

They must use snipers, and then, whatever collateral damage still
ensues, is the SOLE responsibility of those terrorists (& organizations)
that use civilian crowds. But they cannot use missiles or shells that
are meant for carriers or facilities against people in a crowd.

But true, they cannot solve a problem that is clearly caused by the
Palies bandits by any means they want, even if they have a right to
address it with extreme prejudice, there is a moral obligation that is
also in the Geneva convention.

Same with the houses, it borders on illegality if they demolish them at
random. But they have a right to act if these dwelling were used in
military operations against them. And that means individually each of
them, it does not mean that because one is used in a neighborhood, all
houses are fair game.

It must be the specific dwelling IMO.

But in that sense it is absolutely conform with the Geneva convention.

This is what makes the amnesty people, assholes, to pretend that the
Geneva convention says the opposite of what it says, and also because
they never quote it when Palestinian terrorists violate it. they are not
Amnesty international, they are Amnesty for Palestinian Terrorists only.
This is a shame.

But yes, there are limits to what Israel can do. And it is not for
nothing that the US abstained last resolution, there were also a part in
the formulation of the resolution that concerned the terrorists, mind
you, it was about being against all unacceptable violence in the area.
With overtone that made them abstain instead of voting for it, of
course, but overall, it was good enough not to be vetoed, because the
attack in the crowd with a missile is illegal even in these
circumstances, even by Israeli standards I'm sure, and for once there
was a resolution they could not totally disagree on.

For once, it was on the other side, apparently. Yes.

J.

-----------------------------------------------

Palestinian trauma over demolitions


Human rights groups say Israeli forces have torn down more than 3,000
Palestinian homes during the three years of the intifada.

Israel also recently announced plans to demolish hundreds more in Rafah
refugee camp in Gaza.

Palestinian psychiatrist Eyad al-Sarraj, chairman of Gaza's community
health
programme, examines the effect the demolitions is having on Palestinian
families.

For children, seeing their houses being demolished has a very severe
impact.

According to our research, the worst kind of trauma children can
receive is
losing the father or losing the home, because both represent security for
children and a feeling of stability in their own environment.

And this category of severe trauma has been played out over and over
again,
because Israel has not only demolished homes in Rafah but throughout the
Palestinian areas.

The first reaction is usually a reaction of shock and bewilderment, which
rapidly becomes a state of depression, deepening particularly in children
around the age of 10.

Cardboard replica

I will never forget the case in which I treated a child in Khan Younis
whose
house had been demolished.

This little girl insisted every night on leaving the tent that was
given to
the family by the UN and sleeping in her own bed in the house that was
demolished.

Her family would have to wait until she was fast asleep before they could
take her back to the tent.


For Palestinian children, it is exactly what their grandparents tell
them
happened to them in Palestine in 1948 when Israel was created

Palestinian psychiatrist Eyad al-Sarraj
She was also building a small house inside the tent - a replica of her
own
house - out of cardboard.

That was a severe case and I continued to treat that case for over a
year,
with little success.

Cycle of destruction

For adults, the cycle of the Palestinian life is usually destruction,
killing and the state of shock and bewilderment, going into depression
and
then a state of helplessness.

This is particularly true on the part of fathers, who feel that they are
impotent and unable to protect their own families. That helplessness goes
gradually into a state of anger.

Anger can become a state of defiance and then rebellion.

This rebellion goes out in the streets and also in other forms of
militant
action, because there is a deep sense there that they are facing an
enemy -
Israel - that has no morality and they have to take revenge.

And then the call for revenge becomes so tribal - as you have seen it
in the
last three years of this intifada, where some Palestinians have blown
themselves up and Israelis around them in the markets of Israel and the
cafes and the public squares of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Repeat of history

People never get over the kind of severe trauma of losing their homes.

And for Palestinian children, it is exactly what their grandparents tell
them happened to them in Palestine in 1948 when Israel was created.

And now it is happening again in the West Bank and Gaza where we built
homes
and Israel destroys them.

The message we get here is that we have no place in our country, we
have to
leave.

But people of course we insist that this is home, we want to live and we
want to die in our homes.


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