A careful reader of the limited news coming out of Iraq will
discover the US military situation is perilous and a few more bad
moves could send the US Army and Marines retreating back to Kuwait in
the same manner they fled southward 54 years ago in Korea. That was
when a million Chinese foot soldiers suddenly appeared and attacked as
overextended US forces approached the Chinese border. American
firepower, airpower, and technology was unable to compensate for the
confusion and lack of supplies for American ground troops.
The main problem in Iraq today is the massive logistics effort
required to sustain US Forces at a over a hundred dispersed camps.
Over 95% of supplies arrive by ship, and the closest major seaport is
in Kuwait. This means everything must be hauled hundreds of miles
over war torn roads among hostile natives. This is far more difficult
than Vietnam, which had a long coastline where supplies could be
dropped off. A recent article by Tom Ricks of the Washington Post
noted that most convoys are attacked, and that soldiers must stop to
check each bridge for explosives because there is not enough manpower
to guard them. Other reporters tell of recently destroyed bridges,
forcing convoys to travel on secondary roads which doubles their
travel time. In addition, many civilian truck drivers have refused to
drive and many foreign logistics contractors have left Iraq.
Many reports tell of ammunition rationing. The US military was
not expecting a prolonged conflict, and drawing and transporting
dangerous ammo from limited worldwide stockpiles is a challenge.
Senior Army officials told the House Armed Services Committee last
month that nearly all the wartime stockpiles in Southwest Asia and on
the island of Diego Garcia have been issued, as well as equipment
stashed in Europe—a total of 10,000 tanks, personnel carriers, trucks,
and other vehicles. Only the Army's equipment for one brigade in
Korea and the Marines' brigade stock in Guam remain untouched. In
addition, the desert sand and heavy use of helicopters and equipment
is wearing them out many times faster than usual. This demands many
more spare parts and shortages have developed. Ammunition and most
military spare parts cannot be purchased on the commercial market.
Assuming the military supply and contracting bureaucracy can quickly
identify needs and place orders, it takes months to boost production.
Meanwhile, Generals must juggle budget allocations with semi-legal
account shifts since the Bush administration has announced that it
will not ask Congress for supplemental funding until January, after
the presidential election.
Back in Iraq, US commanders need more troops to guard supply
lines and provide security, but more troops require more supplies.
Moreover, the Army is stretched to the limit and has no forces ready
to deploy. There are several National Guard divisions available since
most Guard combat units have not been mobilized since 9-11. However,
that would cause an election year embarrassment for the Bush
administration, and there is no money allocated to pay them anyway.
While President Bush often proclaims the nation is at war, he has
failed to request a tax increase to pay for it and has become hesitant
to mobilize more reservists to provide the manpower Army Generals say
they need. Meanwhile, combat units have been diverted for an election
year offensive into the rugged Afghanistan mountains in hope of
capturing Osama bin Laden, while the Spanish and other allies pull
their troops from Iraq. Finally, hundreds of heavy M-1 tanks were
shipped back to the USA last year as the Army expected only light
peacekeeping duty. Only 70 are left in Iraq, while 28 are inbound
from Germany in an emergency airlift personally ordered by Secretary
Rumsfeld. The 1st Marine Division brought none of its 58 tanks and
was forced to borrow some from the Army to support recent fighting.
Americans forget the Bush administration had promised democracy
in Iraq. Eventually, they realized that since the Shiite represent
60% of Iraq, the country would come under the control of
fundamentalist religious leaders who are likely to demand the US
military leave. The US is building four large, modern "enduring"
bases in Iraq, and apparently wants to shift forces now based in
Germany to permanent bases in Iraq, which is to become America's
military bastion in the Middle East. Iraqis are not fooled by
statements that "sovereignty" will be granted on June 30th. All this
means is that some new English speaking Iraqi puppets will be
appointed to represent US interests. While the US military attempts
to win their hearts and minds with billions of dollars in aid, Iraqis
show little gratitude since the US caused most of the damage with
bombings and a ten year trade embargo.
Sensational reporting by Arab television networks has aroused
anti-American hatred throughout the Arab world. The religious
co-leaders of unstable Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa (a law) urging
Muslims to use "all means" to stop what it called "the fierce
onslaught" on Muslims by "occupation forces" in Iraq. It "urges every
fair person among Muslims and others in the world to denounce this
fierce onslaught and strive by all means to stop it and punish those
responsible for it", said the fatwa, carried by the Saudi state SPA
news agency. This was not reported by American media, and the effect
is difficult to measure, but worrisome enough that the US government
immediately ordered all non-essential US citizens to leave Saudi
Arabia. President Bush further infuriated Arabs by announcing that he
would not seek an agreement to end the Israeli occupation of Arab
land, but will support whatever Israel wants to do.
As a result, Iraq has become a magnet for young, adventurous
jihadist from Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran whose leaders have begun
to openly voice disapproval of the situation. Iran has a population
of 70 million, compared to 25 million in Iraq. If one million armed
Iranians slip across the border and attack American infidels, the US
may have to retreat. Anyone who thinks this is implausible should
read about the US Army's embarrassing retreat from North Korea in
1950. Army Generals were extremely optimistic, dismissive of their
enemy, and thought airpower could always protect them. This
historical document: Staff Operations: The X Corps in Korea, December
1950 includes these comments:
"It seemed as if the war was winding to a successful close. So sure
were Almond and his staff of the enemy's weakness that they thinned
forces across the entire front. Almond told officers of one regiment:
"We're still attacking and we're going all the way to the Yalu. Don't
let a bunch of Chinese laundrymen stop you." That regiment was
overrun a few days later, by Chinese laundrymen.
"General Willoughby-asserted that a Chinese intervention was highly
unlikely but that if it occurred the Chinese would suffer massive
casualties to UN air power. This optimism colored the plans and ideas
of all subordinate commands."
"At the start of the massive Chinese intervention, the X Corps staff
at first tried to ignore it or downplay its effect on the corps'
offensive plans. In response to the new guidance and in an attempt to
react to the rapidly changing situation for which they had no
contingency plans, the X Corps staff prepared a succession of orders,
each outlining vastly different types of operations." X Corps and the
1st Marine Division managed a semi-organized bloody retreat from all
of North Korea which was embarrassing and costly.
American forces in Iraq cannot be defeated in standard military
engagements. However, insurgents know the weak spot; the long main
supply routes. If camps run short of ammo and spare parts, they must
retreat toward Kuwait and hope that the Army's cash strapped logistics
bureaucracy can meet the surging demand to save them from catastrophe.
The Army must take five steps to prevent an embarrassing retreat: 1)
Secure the main supply routes and establish emergency supply caches
inside Iraq; 2) Develop plans to quickly abandon vulnerable camps in a
crisis; 3) Avoid alienating the Arab world with offensive operations
until the first two steps are accomplished; 4) Stop calling Iraqi
insurgents thugs, terrorists, and criminals. That encourages poor
treatment of all Iraqis by American soldiers and makes negotiations to
end violence impossible; 5) Americans must not destroy Iraqi cities in
order to save them, lest they find themselves overrun by irate Muslim
laundrymen.
Carlton Meyer
.
|
|
| User: "dreamwalker" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 09:26:10 PM |
|
|
<jjwalshh@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:6to79098n6dbt5lk7p4iab59sm24a3l6l7@4ax.com...
A careful reader of the limited news coming out of Iraq will
discover the US military situation is perilous and a few more bad
moves could send the US Army and Marines retreating back to Kuwait in
the same manner they fled southward 54 years ago in Korea. That was
when a million Chinese foot soldiers suddenly appeared and attacked as
overextended US forces approached the Chinese border. American
firepower, airpower, and technology was unable to compensate for the
confusion and lack of supplies for American ground troops.
The main problem in Iraq today is the massive logistics effort
required to sustain US Forces at a over a hundred dispersed camps.
Over 95% of supplies arrive by ship, and the closest major seaport is
in Kuwait. This means everything must be hauled hundreds of miles
over war torn roads among hostile natives. This is far more difficult
than Vietnam, which had a long coastline where supplies could be
dropped off. A recent article by Tom Ricks of the Washington Post
noted that most convoys are attacked, and that soldiers must stop to
check each bridge for explosives because there is not enough manpower
to guard them. Other reporters tell of recently destroyed bridges,
forcing convoys to travel on secondary roads which doubles their
travel time. In addition, many civilian truck drivers have refused to
drive and many foreign logistics contractors have left Iraq.
Many reports tell of ammunition rationing. The US military was
not expecting a prolonged conflict, and drawing and transporting
dangerous ammo from limited worldwide stockpiles is a challenge.
Senior Army officials told the House Armed Services Committee last
month that nearly all the wartime stockpiles in Southwest Asia and on
the island of Diego Garcia have been issued, as well as equipment
stashed in Europe-a total of 10,000 tanks, personnel carriers, trucks,
and other vehicles. Only the Army's equipment for one brigade in
Korea and the Marines' brigade stock in Guam remain untouched. In
addition, the desert sand and heavy use of helicopters and equipment
is wearing them out many times faster than usual. This demands many
more spare parts and shortages have developed. Ammunition and most
military spare parts cannot be purchased on the commercial market.
Assuming the military supply and contracting bureaucracy can quickly
identify needs and place orders, it takes months to boost production.
Meanwhile, Generals must juggle budget allocations with semi-legal
account shifts since the Bush administration has announced that it
will not ask Congress for supplemental funding until January, after
the presidential election.
Back in Iraq, US commanders need more troops to guard supply
lines and provide security, but more troops require more supplies.
Moreover, the Army is stretched to the limit and has no forces ready
to deploy. There are several National Guard divisions available since
most Guard combat units have not been mobilized since 9-11. However,
that would cause an election year embarrassment for the Bush
administration, and there is no money allocated to pay them anyway.
While President Bush often proclaims the nation is at war, he has
failed to request a tax increase to pay for it and has become hesitant
to mobilize more reservists to provide the manpower Army Generals say
they need. Meanwhile, combat units have been diverted for an election
year offensive into the rugged Afghanistan mountains in hope of
capturing Osama bin Laden, while the Spanish and other allies pull
their troops from Iraq. Finally, hundreds of heavy M-1 tanks were
shipped back to the USA last year as the Army expected only light
peacekeeping duty. Only 70 are left in Iraq, while 28 are inbound
from Germany in an emergency airlift personally ordered by Secretary
Rumsfeld. The 1st Marine Division brought none of its 58 tanks and
was forced to borrow some from the Army to support recent fighting.
Americans forget the Bush administration had promised democracy
in Iraq. Eventually, they realized that since the Shiite represent
60% of Iraq, the country would come under the control of
fundamentalist religious leaders who are likely to demand the US
military leave. The US is building four large, modern "enduring"
bases in Iraq, and apparently wants to shift forces now based in
Germany to permanent bases in Iraq, which is to become America's
military bastion in the Middle East. Iraqis are not fooled by
statements that "sovereignty" will be granted on June 30th. All this
means is that some new English speaking Iraqi puppets will be
appointed to represent US interests. While the US military attempts
to win their hearts and minds with billions of dollars in aid, Iraqis
show little gratitude since the US caused most of the damage with
bombings and a ten year trade embargo.
Sensational reporting by Arab television networks has aroused
anti-American hatred throughout the Arab world. The religious
co-leaders of unstable Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa (a law) urging
Muslims to use "all means" to stop what it called "the fierce
onslaught" on Muslims by "occupation forces" in Iraq. It "urges every
fair person among Muslims and others in the world to denounce this
fierce onslaught and strive by all means to stop it and punish those
responsible for it", said the fatwa, carried by the Saudi state SPA
news agency. This was not reported by American media, and the effect
is difficult to measure, but worrisome enough that the US government
immediately ordered all non-essential US citizens to leave Saudi
Arabia. President Bush further infuriated Arabs by announcing that he
would not seek an agreement to end the Israeli occupation of Arab
land, but will support whatever Israel wants to do.
As a result, Iraq has become a magnet for young, adventurous
jihadist from Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran whose leaders have begun
to openly voice disapproval of the situation. Iran has a population
of 70 million, compared to 25 million in Iraq. If one million armed
Iranians slip across the border and attack American infidels, the US
may have to retreat. Anyone who thinks this is implausible should
read about the US Army's embarrassing retreat from North Korea in
1950. Army Generals were extremely optimistic, dismissive of their
enemy, and thought airpower could always protect them. This
historical document: Staff Operations: The X Corps in Korea, December
1950 includes these comments:
"It seemed as if the war was winding to a successful close. So sure
were Almond and his staff of the enemy's weakness that they thinned
forces across the entire front. Almond told officers of one regiment:
"We're still attacking and we're going all the way to the Yalu. Don't
let a bunch of Chinese laundrymen stop you." That regiment was
overrun a few days later, by Chinese laundrymen.
"General Willoughby-asserted that a Chinese intervention was highly
unlikely but that if it occurred the Chinese would suffer massive
casualties to UN air power. This optimism colored the plans and ideas
of all subordinate commands."
"At the start of the massive Chinese intervention, the X Corps staff
at first tried to ignore it or downplay its effect on the corps'
offensive plans. In response to the new guidance and in an attempt to
react to the rapidly changing situation for which they had no
contingency plans, the X Corps staff prepared a succession of orders,
each outlining vastly different types of operations." X Corps and the
1st Marine Division managed a semi-organized bloody retreat from all
of North Korea which was embarrassing and costly.
American forces in Iraq cannot be defeated in standard military
engagements. However, insurgents know the weak spot; the long main
supply routes. If camps run short of ammo and spare parts, they must
retreat toward Kuwait and hope that the Army's cash strapped logistics
bureaucracy can meet the surging demand to save them from catastrophe.
The Army must take five steps to prevent an embarrassing retreat: 1)
Secure the main supply routes and establish emergency supply caches
inside Iraq; 2) Develop plans to quickly abandon vulnerable camps in a
crisis; 3) Avoid alienating the Arab world with offensive operations
until the first two steps are accomplished; 4) Stop calling Iraqi
insurgents thugs, terrorists, and criminals. That encourages poor
treatment of all Iraqis by American soldiers and makes negotiations to
end violence impossible; 5) Americans must not destroy Iraqi cities in
order to save them, lest they find themselves overrun by irate Muslim
laundrymen.
Carlton Meyer
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all forces from Basra, Baghdad, and the Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the southern oil fields and terminals. Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the terminals and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the northern fields into their country. Give the three countries a
vested intrest into the project. Allow them to take partial responsibility for pipeline security.
Take the cash and place it in escrow. Allow a third party to over see the money. Maybe a peace nik
country like France or Germany. The money shall remain in escrow until the Iraqis grow up and want
to join the civilized world. They'll be willing to put aside their religious attacks on each other
for the good of the nation. In other words, let 'em kill each other until they get sick of killing.
The playfield is pretty level between the different sects so it should make for some interesting
fighting. Then release the oil for infrastructure rebuilding. It's called the carrot and the stick.
Play nice and you get a carrot. Play nasty and suck the stick. Basically a behavioral contract.
.
|
|
|
| User: "AK" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 12:07:23 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com> wrote:
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all forces from Basra, Baghdad, and the Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the southern oil fields and terminals. Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the terminals and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the northern fields into their country.
And then suddenly someone woke up dreamwalker from his pipe dream.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 06:22:35 AM |
|
|
"AK" <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message
news:fb5037d2661b747840dead5f9ab9364e@news.teranews.com...
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com>
wrote:
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all forces from Basra, Baghdad, and the
Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the southern oil fields and terminals.
Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the terminals
and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil
supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the northern fields into their country.
But if we did this the world might think we only invaded for the oil instead
of for Iraqi Freedom.
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 06:55:57 AM |
|
|
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:yYKdnba5j5hQtgvd4p2dnA@locallink.net...
"AK" <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message
news:fb5037d2661b747840dead5f9ab9364e@news.teranews.com...
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com>
wrote:
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all forces from Basra, Baghdad, and the
Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the southern oil fields and terminals.
Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the
terminals
and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil
supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the northern fields into their country.
But if we did this the world might think we only invaded for the oil
instead
of for Iraqi Freedom.
Better yet, we could do like they did 90 years ago and redraw the maps and
make the southern oil fields part of Kuwait and the northern oil fields a
part of Turkey.
.
|
|
|
| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 07:35:37 AM |
|
|
" John F Lemke"
wrote:
" John F Lemke" < > wrote in message
news:yYKdnba5j5hQtgvd4p2dnA@locallink.net...
"AK" <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message
news:fb5037d2661b747840dead5f9ab9364e@news.teranews.com...
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com>
wrote:
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all >> > >forces from Basra, Baghdad, and
the Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the >> > >southern oil fields and
terminals.
Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the
terminals
and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil
supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the >> > >northern fields into their
country.
Not a bad idea DW.
Better yet, we could do like they did 90 >years ago and redraw the maps and
make the southern oil fields part of >Kuwait and the northern oil fields a
part of Turkey.
The first part is a good idea, the 2nd part is not, the northern oil fields
should be given to the Kurds to repay them for the abuses of Saddam, and for
their alliance with the USA in the war against Saddam.
Tony
.
|
|
|
| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 06:35:37 PM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040503083537.02695.00000528@mb-m21.aol.com...
" John F Lemke"
wrote:
" John F Lemke" < > wrote in message
news:yYKdnba5j5hQtgvd4p2dnA@locallink.net...
"AK" <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message
news:fb5037d2661b747840dead5f9ab9364e@news.teranews.com...
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker"
<backfromthe@dead.com>
wrote:
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all >> > >forces from Basra, Baghdad,
and
the Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the >> > >southern oil fields and
terminals.
Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the
terminals
and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil
supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the >> > >northern fields into their
country.
Not a bad idea DW.
Better yet, we could do like they did 90 >years ago and redraw the maps
and
make the southern oil fields part of >Kuwait and the northern oil fields
a
part of Turkey.
The first part is a good idea, the 2nd part is not, the northern oil
fields
should be given to the Kurds to repay them for the abuses of Saddam, and
for
their alliance with the USA in the war against Saddam.
Tony
But if we did any of this we'd be engaging in imperialism and, Lordy, people
were tripping all over themselves on apn a year ago denying any imperial aim
in our liberation of Iraq.
But, heck, the West made 'em a country in the first place after World War I.
We should have the right to split 'em up any way we want to again, eh?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "dreamwalker" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 11:09:09 PM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040503083537.02695.00000528@mb-m21.aol.com...
" John F Lemke"
wrote:
" John F Lemke" < > wrote in message
news:yYKdnba5j5hQtgvd4p2dnA@locallink.net...
"AK" <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message
news:fb5037d2661b747840dead5f9ab9364e@news.teranews.com...
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com>
wrote:
Here's dw's solution. Withdraw all >> > >forces from Basra, Baghdad, and
the Sunni triangle. Position
50,000-60,000 troops to protect the >> > >southern oil fields and
terminals.
Heavily mine the perimeter
of the southern oil fields. Take this opportunity to update the
terminals
and fields. Begin a push
to pump a massive amount of Iraqi sweet crude in to the world's oil
supply. Join with Jordan, Syria,
and Turkey to pipeline oil from the >> > >northern fields into their
country.
Not a bad idea DW.
Better yet, we could do like they did 90 >years ago and redraw the maps and
make the southern oil fields part of >Kuwait and the northern oil fields a
part of Turkey.
The first part is a good idea, the 2nd part is not, the northern oil fields
should be given to the Kurds to repay them for the abuses of Saddam, and for
their alliance with the USA in the war against Saddam.
Wouldn't work. Turkey would have a bird (no pun intended). The Kurds certianly deserve a piece of
the action. Perhaps a cut of the oil profits. Then they could open a few casinos and bingo parlors.
Worked great here!
Tony
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 01:31:45 AM |
|
|
On 03 May 2004 12:35:37 GMT, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
The first part is a good idea, the 2nd part is not, the northern oil fields
should be given to the Kurds to repay them for the abuses of Saddam, and for
their alliance with the USA in the war against Saddam.
Poor idiot. Saddam is as good as dead; yet, you, huge Mammoth can't
STAND to be wrong - so you'll hold on to the Saddam fallacy for dear
life. Oh and believe you me - you *are* Wrong.
Dani
.
|
|
|
| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 02:12:46 AM |
|
|
Dani
wrote:
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
The first part is a good idea, the 2nd >>part is not, the northern oil fields
should be given to the Kurds to repay >>them for the abuses of Saddam, and
for
their alliance with the USA in the war >>against Saddam.
Poor idiot. Saddam is as good as dead; >yet, you, huge Mammoth can't
STAND to be wrong - so you'll hold on to >the Saddam fallacy for dear
life. Oh and believe you me - you *are* >Wrong.
Dani
Your reply to my post above makes no sense whatsoever.
Anyway, when Saddam is once again ruling over Iraq, you can come back and
"papologize".
Tony
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 11:37:09 AM |
|
|
On 04 May 2004 07:12:46 GMT, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Dani
wrote:
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
The first part is a good idea, the 2nd >>part is not, the northern oil fields
should be given to the Kurds to repay >>them for the abuses of Saddam, and
for
their alliance with the USA in the war >>against Saddam.
Poor idiot. Saddam is as good as dead; >yet, you, huge Mammoth can't
STAND to be wrong - so you'll hold on to >the Saddam fallacy for dear
life. Oh and believe you me - you *are* >Wrong.
Dani
Your reply to my post above makes no sense whatsoever.
Anyway, when Saddam is once again ruling over Iraq, you can come back and
"papologize".
It's a deal. If Saddam comes back I'll apologize. Deal, buddy.
Dani
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 06:50:50 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 3 May 2004 07:22:35 -0400, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"AK" <someoneNasty@hotmails.com> wrote in message
news:fb5037d2661b747840dead5f9ab9364e@news.teranews.com...
On Sun, 2 May 2004 21:26:10 -0500, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com>
wrote:
But if we did this the world might think we only invaded for the oil instead
of for Iraqi Freedom.
The only ones that don't know that Bush is after the oil is the dumb ,
blind, pond scum Americans that put him in power, and will put the
little lizzard ***** in once again.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 01:11:44 AM |
|
|
Daaark Dooork poooped his pants yet again:
and will put the little lizzard ***** in once again.
....and I only have to wonder just how many times you've heard this one
before?
Dani
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 06:49:47 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 04 May 2004 06:11:44 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Daaark Dooork poooped his pants yet again:
and will put the little lizzard ***** in once again.
...and I only have to wonder just how many times you've heard this one
before?
Dani
It's brain dead people like you Dimmi that keeps voting trash like
this in, so you get what you deserve.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dani" |
|
| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 11:33:17 AM |
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On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:49:47 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 06:11:44 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Daaark Dooork poooped his pants yet again:
and will put the little lizzard ***** in once again.
...and I only have to wonder just how many times you've heard this one
before?
It's brain dead people like you Dimmi that keeps voting trash like
this in, so you get what you deserve.
Oh *bring it* Daaark. Bring it.
Dani
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
05 May 2004 06:51:59 AM |
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On Tue, 04 May 2004 16:33:17 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:49:47 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 06:11:44 GMT, Dani <dani7200@hotmail.com> wrote:
Daaark Dooork poooped his pants yet again:
and will put the little lizzard ***** in once again.
...and I only have to wonder just how many times you've heard this one
before?
It's brain dead people like you Dimmi that keeps voting trash like
this in, so you get what you deserve.
Oh *bring it* Daaark. Bring it.
Dani
I'll give you more than you can handle there Dimmi.
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| User: "Anon Ymous" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 04:24:40 AM |
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wrote in message news:<6to79098n6dbt5lk7p4iab59sm24a3l6l7@4ax.com>...
Interesting article, but has several flaws...
A careful reader of the limited news coming out of Iraq will
discover the US military situation is perilous and a few more bad
moves could send the US Army and Marines retreating back to Kuwait in
the same manner they fled southward 54 years ago in Korea. That was
when a million Chinese foot soldiers suddenly appeared and attacked as
overextended US forces approached the Chinese border. American
firepower, airpower, and technology was unable to compensate for the
confusion and lack of supplies for American ground troops.
One glaring difference between the Chinese intervention in NK and the
possibility of insurgents flooding in from Iran is that the million
Chinese were an actual military with supplies and armament. I
seriously doubt we'll see a committed move by any of the nations
surrounding Iraq to threaten the U.S. forces. Such a move would
result in a whole lot of dead Iranians. Instead, a small but steady
flow of insurgents and relatively cheap weapons (like grenade
launchers as opposed to tanks and F16s) will continue to come across
the borders. The supply lines arent as vulnerable as suggested
because of the effectiveness of U.S. airpower. Because of the nature
of the insurgents' weapons, main areas of contention will be cities.
The insurgents coming into Iraq are using guerilla tactics--not easy
to fight that way in the desert given the mobility and aircover of the
U.S. military. In the cities, however, U.S. airpower is more limited
due to the threat to the civilian population, concealment provided by
buildings, and unseen mobility of insurgents. In a city, they dont
need to move far to escape an attack.
The insurgents and guerillas are fighting a smart, cheap war. So, the
U.S. troops have a few options, all of which could be expensive.
First, as dw suggested, they can pull out of and ignore the nastier
cities. Force the insurgents out into the open (where they'd have no
chance) if they want to kill Americans. Next, they could use
overwhelming force on the problem cities resulting in massive civilian
casualties (as, I think Tony suggested, not a great PR move). Or,
they can pussyfoot around with bogus one-sided cease fires and lose a
hundred men a month or so (more than acceptable for the powers that
want to see Iraq continue to act as a money ciphon from the taxpayers
pockets to defense industry, rebuilding effort, oil, etc.). Liberals
can run around being upset, and Bush can lose the election to Kerry
who may have to continue the same course Bush set us on in the first
place.
The main problem in Iraq isnt logistics. If I had to rank them, Id
say the main problems are:
1. Moral highground/purpose--we dont have it. At this point, it
should be clear to the American public that we have no reason to be in
Iraq. We are fighting the corporations'/Israel's war.
2. PR--knowing this, our press uses the relatively small amount of
casualties to condemn the war and the military emotionally. As public
support fades, so will financial and congressional support, despite
the increasing need in Iraq.
3. Cheap weapons and willing throngs of religious fanatics able to
inflict at least a few expensive casualties against very expensive
U.S. hardware and troops. If the U.S. kills 100 insurgents, and the
insurgents kill 10 G.I.s and knock out 2 hellicopters, they win.
4. The will behind the military action combined with ineffectiveness
of liberal protestation and fading public support. The corporations
who benefit from this action simply do not care about 100 enlisted
guys per month. After all, that's what they are getting paid for,
right?
After all these problems, we can worry about logistics.
If one million armed
Iranians slip across the border and attack American infidels, the US
may have to retreat. Anyone who thinks this is implausible should
read about the US Army's embarrassing retreat from North Korea in
1950.
Sorry, but a million man military offensive from a comparable
super-power is not the same as a million insurgents without armor, air
cover, supplies or leadership. A cheaper, significantly more
effective technique for Iran is to send over a small amount of men to
arm and train the Shiite population. And that's exactly what we are
seeing and will continue to see. Unfortunately for all but the
corporations, it's pretty much completely ineffective in regards to
removing the U.S. presence in Iraq.
S~
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| User: "dreamwalker" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
05 May 2004 11:53:50 PM |
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"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0405030124.5017ad64@posting.google.com...
jjwalshh@yahoo.ca wrote in message news:<6to79098n6dbt5lk7p4iab59sm24a3l6l7@4ax.com>...
Interesting article, but has several flaws...
A careful reader of the limited news coming out of Iraq will
discover the US military situation is perilous and a few more bad
moves could send the US Army and Marines retreating back to Kuwait in
the same manner they fled southward 54 years ago in Korea. That was
when a million Chinese foot soldiers suddenly appeared and attacked as
overextended US forces approached the Chinese border. American
firepower, airpower, and technology was unable to compensate for the
confusion and lack of supplies for American ground troops.
One glaring difference between the Chinese intervention in NK and the
possibility of insurgents flooding in from Iran is that the million
Chinese were an actual military with supplies and armament. I
seriously doubt we'll see a committed move by any of the nations
surrounding Iraq to threaten the U.S. forces. Such a move would
result in a whole lot of dead Iranians. Instead, a small but steady
flow of insurgents and relatively cheap weapons (like grenade
launchers as opposed to tanks and F16s) will continue to come across
the borders. The supply lines arent as vulnerable as suggested
because of the effectiveness of U.S. airpower. Because of the nature
of the insurgents' weapons, main areas of contention will be cities.
The insurgents coming into Iraq are using guerilla tactics--not easy
to fight that way in the desert given the mobility and aircover of the
U.S. military. In the cities, however, U.S. airpower is more limited
due to the threat to the civilian population, concealment provided by
buildings, and unseen mobility of insurgents. In a city, they dont
need to move far to escape an attack.
The insurgents and guerillas are fighting a smart, cheap war. So, the
U.S. troops have a few options, all of which could be expensive.
First, as dw suggested, they can pull out of and ignore the nastier
cities. Force the insurgents out into the open (where they'd have no
chance) if they want to kill Americans. Next, they could use
overwhelming force on the problem cities resulting in massive civilian
casualties (as, I think Tony suggested, not a great PR move). Or,
they can pussyfoot around with bogus one-sided cease fires and lose a
hundred men a month or so (more than acceptable for the powers that
want to see Iraq continue to act as a money ciphon from the taxpayers
pockets to defense industry, rebuilding effort, oil, etc.). Liberals
can run around being upset, and Bush can lose the election to Kerry
who may have to continue the same course Bush set us on in the first
place.
The main problem in Iraq isnt logistics. If I had to rank them, Id
say the main problems are:
1. Moral highground/purpose--we dont have it. At this point, it
should be clear to the American public that we have no reason to be in
Iraq. We are fighting the corporations'/Israel's war.
2. PR--knowing this, our press uses the relatively small amount of
casualties to condemn the war and the military emotionally. As public
support fades, so will financial and congressional support, despite
the increasing need in Iraq.
3. Cheap weapons and willing throngs of religious fanatics able to
inflict at least a few expensive casualties against very expensive
U.S. hardware and troops. If the U.S. kills 100 insurgents, and the
insurgents kill 10 G.I.s and knock out 2 hellicopters, they win.
4. The will behind the military action combined with ineffectiveness
of liberal protestation and fading public support. The corporations
who benefit from this action simply do not care about 100 enlisted
guys per month. After all, that's what they are getting paid for,
right?
After all these problems, we can worry about logistics.
If one million armed
Iranians slip across the border and attack American infidels, the US
may have to retreat. Anyone who thinks this is implausible should
read about the US Army's embarrassing retreat from North Korea in
1950.
Sorry, but a million man military offensive from a comparable
super-power is not the same as a million insurgents without armor, air
cover, supplies or leadership. A cheaper, significantly more
effective technique for Iran is to send over a small amount of men to
arm and train the Shiite population. And that's exactly what we are
seeing and will continue to see. Unfortunately for all but the
corporations, it's pretty much completely ineffective in regards to
removing the U.S. presence in Iraq.
S~
That's why my solution is the best solution.
.
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
04 May 2004 02:24:14 PM |
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(Anon Ymous) wrote in message news:<5c2e70b2.0405030124.5017ad64@posting.google.com>...
One glaring difference between the Chinese intervention in NK and the
possibility of insurgents flooding in from Iran is that the million
Chinese were an actual military with supplies and armament.
Mostly from America military complex becuase we supplied Chiang
Kai-shec ( peanut head) forces againt Mao Tse-tung then Japan WWII.
I
seriously doubt we'll see a committed move by any of the nations
surrounding Iraq to threaten the U.S. forces.
Nope:
The bad guys have the weapons in Iraq and the leaders of
other Arab countries supplying them are scared to death of losing
their
power to a global society so they are arming the Arabs terrorists.
were talking about global assimilation into a one world culture. This
is called assimilation and cultural toleration for the world. It is
not
happening in Iraq or Arabian 22 states.
Is it a culture of Islam as its cultural base or a culture of
Christianity as its cultural base for the world.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 04:20:21 AM |
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The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in control of
Iraq.
Tony
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| User: "dreamwalker" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 09:02:29 PM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040502052021.27780.00000878@mb-m11.aol.com...
The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in control of
Iraq.
Tony
Rubbish. The prophecies say nothing of the kind.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 12:42:31 PM |
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In article <20040502052021.27780.00000878@mb-m11.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in control of
Iraq.
If so, he will be much, much stronger than he was previously. Like the old
saying goes, "What doesn't destroy me makes me stronger".
Woods
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| User: "Ex" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 03:16:46 PM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqalc.134902$e17.27669@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040502052021.27780.00000878@mb-m11.aol.com>,
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to
discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in
control of
Iraq.
If so, he will be much, much stronger than he was previously. Like the
old
saying goes, "What doesn't destroy me makes me stronger".
Woods
Yes ... and since the U.S. is beginning to hand over power to some of
Saddam's ex-army officers, I guess there is the possibility of it actually
happening.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.670 / Virus Database: 432 - Release Date: 4/27/04
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| User: "dreamwalker" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 09:46:16 PM |
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"Ex" <ex@ex.com> wrote in message news:XGclc.4543$ZJ5.269205@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqalc.134902$e17.27669@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040502052021.27780.00000878@mb-m11.aol.com>,
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to
discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in
control of
Iraq.
If so, he will be much, much stronger than he was previously. Like the
old
saying goes, "What doesn't destroy me makes me stronger".
Woods
Yes ... and since the U.S. is beginning to hand over power to some of
Saddam's ex-army officers, I guess there is the possibility of it actually
happening.
The allies handed limited power over to some third level Nazis following the destruction of Germnay
and the suicide of Hitler. Did that mean that the Nazi party arose back to power?
This is something that's long over due. Bremmer made a huge mistake when he cut out the Bathist.
Like it or not, the Bathist are the best educated and trained in government management. Beyond the
generals, members of the Bathist party included school teachers, professors, lawyers, corporate and
government leaders. Without these individuals, no real progress in infrastructure rebuilding can be
acheived. The Bathist party can remain relatively benign without Saddam's secret police and the
special Republican Guard. Remember, Saddam mined the bridges of Baghdad to keep his Republican Guard
out prior to the invasion.
He was afraid and suspicious of the RG. Thus his creation of the Special RG and the Palace Guard.
Finally, he created the Fedadeen. There was no love loss between the regular RG and the special
units. They hated each other. Saddam was slowly cutting the RG out of the loop. His resources were
being funneled more into the covert actions of the specail units. Another way to look at this is
Saddam became more concerned about internal threats than external. He established a power structure
where the only way for him to be routed from power would be an external threat. But given the
assurances he had from the Eurpeans AND the UN, he felt secure that no external force would
intervene. He forgot about George W Bush.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.670 / Virus Database: 432 - Release Date: 4/27/04
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| User: "dreamwalker" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 09:00:37 PM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqalc.134902$e17.27669@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040502052021.27780.00000878@mb-m11.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in control of
Iraq.
If so, he will be much, much stronger than he was previously. Like the old
saying goes, "What doesn't destroy me makes me stronger".
Woods
In Saddam's case it's more like "What doesn't destroy me makes my life a living hell"
You actually believe its possible the Shiites would allow Saddam back to power? The Shiites have yet
to have an uprising. When and if they do, everyone will know. Placing Saddam into power would see a
surge of Shiite anger fueled in part by Iran. A Shiite uprising consists of one main battle plan.
Human wave attacks. Not something the coalition wants to see.
Saddam's trial is to begin within 1 year. There's this small issue of mass graves to contend with.
Woods, you never cease to amaze me. When Tony said Saddam was the anti-Christ you almost fell over
with laughter. Now that Bush is involved in Iraq, it's suddenly a possibility. How conveniant. Pin
the imaginary rise of Saddam on Bush. Your hatred of Dubya is warping your judgment. Time for
professional help?
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
03 May 2004 06:14:13 PM |
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In article <5a0c2$4095a7c9$40762886$11970@powerweb.allthenewsgroups.com>, "dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com> wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqalc.134902$e17.27669@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040502052021.27780.00000878@mb-m11.aol.com>,
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
The Prophecies indicate this to be the case, but no one here wants to
discuss
prophecies.
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in control
of
Iraq.
If so, he will be much, much stronger than he was previously. Like the old
saying goes, "What doesn't destroy me makes me stronger".
Woods
In Saddam's case it's more like "What doesn't destroy me makes my life a living
hell"
You actually believe its possible the Shiites would allow Saddam back to power?
The Shiites have yet
to have an uprising. When and if they do, everyone will know. Placing Saddam
into power would see a
surge of Shiite anger fueled in part by Iran. A Shiite uprising consists of one
main battle plan.
Human wave attacks. Not something the coalition wants to see.
Saddam's trial is to begin within 1 year. There's this small issue of mass
graves to contend with.
Woods, you never cease to amaze me. When Tony said Saddam was the anti-Christ
you almost fell over
with laughter. Now that Bush is involved in Iraq, it's suddenly a possibility.
How conveniant. Pin
the imaginary rise of Saddam on Bush. Your hatred of Dubya is warping your
judgment. Time for
professional help?
Do you know what predicate logic is?
Woods
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| User: "Dani" |
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| Title: Re: US retreating from Iraq? |
02 May 2004 10:46:38 AM |
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On 02 May 2004 09:20:21 GMT, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
As I said before the war, when this is all over, Saddam will be in control of
Iraq.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL! Forget about it you fairy-tale believing,
brain-damaged reject of nature.
Newsflash: Saddam's not coming back. He is *not* the anti-Christ.
All these years you were ---> Wrong.
Dani
Sometimes we don't need Tony at all.
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