All in all, i figure a change would be in order. The last 2000 years
haven't worked out too well.
-----------
VATICAN SUMMIT AIMS TO COMBAT THREAT OF 'ALTERNATIVE' RELIGIONS
By Peter Popham in Rome
The Independent
June 16, 2004
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=531952
Catholics from more than 25 countries are in Rome this week to hammer
out a
strategy for combating the threat posed to Christianity by "New Age"
religions and fads.
"Astrologers believe that the Age of Pisces -- known to them as the
Christian age -- is drawing to a close," explained an exhaustive
report on
the New Age produced by the Catholic church last year. And as priests
around
the world watch their congregations dwindle through boredom or plain
disbelief, the Church believes that the moment has come to fight back.
Monsignor Peter Fleetwood, one of the authors of the report, said
those at
the closed-door conference include priests and lay people from Latin
America
"worried that they can be pushed out by something that has come from
abroad", and from Asia where "a lot of traditional religions are
reviving".
But for Fleetwood the greatest challenge may be in England and North
America, "where the New Age began ... and where it has become such a
part of
everyday life that we don't notice it". That makes it harder to
attack, he
says: "Where one sees a threat, it's easier to battle it."
This is an enemy with dozens of heads: the version of the Jewish
kabbalah
espoused by Madonna, the Enneagram personality-reading cult, ancient
Egyptian occult practices, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic
Christianity, medieval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, Yoga, Zen
Buddhism,
and many more.
The report acknowledges the strength of the Enemy Within: "In Western
culture in particular, the appeal of 'alternative' approaches to
spirituality is very strong .... New forms of psychological
affirmation of
the individual have become very popular among Catholics."
Under the liberal dispensation of Pope John XXIII and the Second
Vatican
Council, Catholic missionaries explored the religious traditions of
lands
where in the past their task would have been restricted to converting
the
heathen.
In Japan, one Jesuit missionary became a Zen Buddhist roshi
("master"). He
in fact became a reverse missionary, implanting Zen Buddhist ideas and
practice in Catholic groups in Germany and elsewhere, where they
continue to
thrive.
But Pope John Paul II's church is far less tolerant about practices
that the
Pope's "enforcer of the faith", Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, dismissed
as
"spiritual auto-eroticism".
New Age is getting a grip on Christians because many are failing to
find
authentic spirituality in the Church. They are failing to find, as the
report put it, "the importance of man's spiritual dimension and its
integration with the whole of life, the search for life's meaning, the
link
between human beings and the rest of creation, the desire for personal
and
social transformation, and the rejection of a rationalistic and
materialistic view of humanity."
While one of the two "pontifical councils" involved in taking up the
challenge is that for "inter-religious dialogue", suggesting that the
New
Agers be dealt with on a similar footing to Muslims, Jews, and indeed
Anglicans, the Pope himself appears to see the issue as a simple
matter of
right and wrong.
"We cannot delude ourselves," he says, that "this return of ancient
Gnostic
ideas" "will lead toward a renewal of religion." It is, he said, "a
way of
distorting His Word ... in distinct, if not declared, conflict with
all that
is essentially Christian".
The time for a decisive battle is clearly fast approaching. And the
message
to faithful in the report is plain: quit "shopping around in the
world's
fair of religious proposals."
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| User: "ChucklesPF1" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
24 Jun 2004 09:47:39 AM |
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"Hieron" <george@msn.de> wrote in message
Michael Cecil (28SW2) wrote:
The principal threat to Christianity, Inc. is the realization by too
many people that Paul turned the Teaching of Jesus upside down by
teaching a doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the
grave; whereas, according to the Teaching of Jesus, the Doctrine of
the 'resurrection' was a Doctrine of Rebirth.
You sound like those old scratched LPs. Keep repeating the same stuff over
and over again. It gets very boring after a while ...
Nope, a scratched LP keeps bumping back to repeat exactly the same stuff,
word for word. Michael's alternative point of view is quite interesting, instead
of complaining, why not repsond to his invitation to debate? See if you can
defeat him!
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| User: "Werewolfy" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
24 Jun 2004 07:15:20 AM |
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"Sajo Markecz" <zilmohek@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message news:<40da5c79$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au>...
Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the Jews
of Germany :
" If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe ,
hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ' I baptise
thee in the name of Abraham ' ".
" We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ".
" The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary
thieves ".
" Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn , heap
earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever ".
================================================================================
No, not true at all. That was written by Luther. It was written by Grantland!
Werewolfy
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| User: "Gary" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
24 Jun 2004 10:29:11 AM |
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Right. The media actually reports about people who have received mem-
ories of previous lives, while being VERY careful NOT to mention any
connection with the Christian disinterpretation of the Doctrine of
the 'resurrection'.
Right. The media also reports about people who have received false
memories.
CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/02/16/false.memory.ap/
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| User: "Richard" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
25 Jun 2004 09:56:18 AM |
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"Gary" <lookupward@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<brCCc.12166$bs4.6185@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Right. The media actually reports about people who have received mem-
ories of previous lives, while being VERY careful NOT to mention any
connection with the Christian disinterpretation of the Doctrine of
the 'resurrection'.
Right. The media also reports about people who have received false
memories.
CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/02/16/false.memory.ap/
**** East meets West
Catholic Church has taken paganism and whatever and uses it , but
centers on Jesus Christ ,
I have shared with a Brother who teaches Zen Buddism for over twenty
years, he goes around the world teaching Zen , but centers it on
Jesus.
Meditation- us westerners fear to relax in Jesus
Our Ministry at home called Reflecting Resting Light uses many other
approaches in helping someone seeking peace within , all faiths are
welcome.
Reiki , we have been trained in this Japanese way of meeting Jesus
Theophostic- is another approach in letting one come to peace within
themself.
But mostly it comes to testing one's spirit.
We have been trained within our Diocese Center, with knowledge of our
Bishop and priest, and nuns.
Mostly one's mind will go back to their individual hurt , from
something happening in their life , holiding back on forgiveness, the
same way most are slain in spirit at a healing service.
There are many ways of coming to know the God of all people, sure I
have been told to my face I am new age, do devils work and so on.
Most people are ignorant of the experience of hands laid on , or a
method of using ancient ways of healing , WE are not the one's who
heal, we help in a process of peace within , satan has no power , only
what Jesus may permit.
There is no beans about one spirit knowing another, remember we all
have that same spirit , that is GOD's , which never dies, but gives
life.
pagan christian
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| User: "Michael Cecil 28SW2" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
24 Jun 2004 01:55:42 PM |
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Hieron wrote:
You sound like those old scratched LPs. Keep repeating the same stuff over
and over again. It gets very boring after a while ...
Such a pathetic 'response'.
You have no credible argument against what I have said.
All you can do is whine and moan that I have said it.
Meanwhile, the monotonotheist Christian theologians have repeated
the same lies for almost 2000 years. But that is not at all boring.
Rather, it is entertaining for their listeners as well as profitable for
them.
If you don't like what I write, don't read it.
Meanwhile, someone may be reading my argument for the first
time. That is who I am writing for.
Michael Cecil
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| User: "Patty" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
27 Jun 2004 03:29:30 PM |
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"Michael Cecil (28SW2)" <mjtc@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40DB22E5.B638AD5F@earthlink.net...
Hieron wrote:
You sound like those old scratched LPs. Keep repeating the same stuff
over
and over again. It gets very boring after a while ...
Such a pathetic 'response'.
You have no credible argument against what I have said.
All you can do is whine and moan that I have said it.
Meanwhile, the monotonotheist Christian theologians have repeated
the same lies for almost 2000 years.
You see, that's just it - why are you so focused on only ONE of their lies
to the point of sounding like a broken record? Is there no other topic you
ccan beat into the ground?
patty
But that is not at all boring.
Rather, it is entertaining for their listeners as well as profitable for
them.
If you don't like what I write, don't read it.
Meanwhile, someone may be reading my argument for the first
time. That is who I am writing for.
Michael Cecil
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| User: "Hieron" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
24 Jun 2004 05:47:07 PM |
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Michael Cecil (28SW2) wrote:
Hieron wrote:
You sound like those old scratched LPs. Keep repeating the same stuff
over and over again. It gets very boring after a while ...
Such a pathetic 'response'.
I am just getting bored with your posts. They say the same all over again,
like an old scratched LP.
You have no credible argument against what I have said.
Why should I argue with you? You stated that you represent the truth, and
not only your opinion. If it is your opinion, then it can be debated and as
a result your opinion may change. But if it is the "Truth" to you, there is
no point to debate it.
All you can do is whine and moan that I have said it.
Can anyone do anything else when you represent the "Truth" and not simply
your opinion?
Meanwhile, the monotonotheist Christian theologians have repeated
the same lies for almost 2000 years. But that is not at all boring.
Rather, it is entertaining for their listeners as well as profitable for
them.
As if it made any difference. What holds you back from starting your own
religion? Or joining the New Age movement that already holds to your
"Truth"?
If you don't like what I write, don't read it.
Sometimes I read it to see if there is anything new in it. Sigh... always
the same old statements.
Do you think you will ever convert anyone to your "Truth" here? Have you had
any converts?
Meanwhile, someone may be reading my argument for the first
time. That is who I am writing for.
Good luck.
--
Hieron
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| User: "Michael Cecil 28SW2" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
24 Jun 2004 08:12:25 PM |
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Hieron wrote:
Michael Cecil (28SW2) wrote:
Hieron wrote:
You sound like those old scratched LPs. Keep repeating the same stuff
over and over again. It gets very boring after a while ...
Such a pathetic 'response'.
I am just getting bored with your posts. They say the same all over again,
like an old scratched LP.
You have no credible argument against what I have said.
Why should I argue with you? You stated that you represent the truth, and
not only your opinion. If it is your opinion, then it can be debated
The Roman church does not have an 'opinion' about the Teaching of
Jesus. Is *this* why they will not debate me?
and as
a result your opinion may change.
Not without someone convincing me that what I believe is not the
Truth it won't.
But if it is the "Truth" to you, there is
no point to debate it.
This has to be one of the more bizarre statements I have heard.
And this is not the first time.
I don't know too many people who argue that their opinion is nothing
more than an opinion. Most people argue that their opinion is the
Truth. That is what the argument is about--whether or not they are
accurate in asserting that they are telling the Truth.
You too are claiming to tell the Truth, although possibly more
indirectly than I do.
It does not offend me at all when people say that what they are
saying is the Truth. The Roman church says it; Christian evan-
gelists say it. They're just wrong; but it does not offend me that
they assert such a thing.
For you to be offended that I claim to be telling the Truth and to
decline to debate with me on that basis...
Well, it just seems to be disingenuous.
It appears to be nothing more than a feeble excuse for not
being able to present a credible argument that I am wrong.
The Roman church does not claim that it is teaching an opinion
on the Teaching of Jesus. It claims that it is telling the Truth,
just as the rabbis and the Muslim religious officials claim about
the Torah and the Koran.
Meanwhile, the monotonotheist Christian theologians have repeated
the same lies for almost 2000 years. But that is not at all boring.
Rather, it is entertaining for their listeners as well as profitable for
them.
As if it made any difference.
Sure does.
This is the 'genetic' origin of much of the violence in the Middle East
at this very moment. You probably don't believe in 'genes', do you?
What holds you back from starting your own
religion?
Nah.
That was already done by Paul.
Or joining the New Age movement that already holds to your
"Truth"?
Clearly, you don't understand yet what I am saying to make such a
statement. And repeating won't help.
Michael Cecil
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| User: "Hieron" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
25 Jun 2004 05:03:52 AM |
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Michael Cecil (28SW2) wrote:
Hieron wrote:
Michael Cecil (28SW2) wrote:
Hieron wrote:
You sound like those old scratched LPs. Keep repeating the same stuff
over and over again. It gets very boring after a while ...
Such a pathetic 'response'.
I am just getting bored with your posts. They say the same all over
again, like an old scratched LP.
You have no credible argument against what I have said.
Why should I argue with you? You stated that you represent the truth, and
not only your opinion. If it is your opinion, then it can be debated
The Roman church does not have an 'opinion' about the Teaching of
Jesus. Is *this* why they will not debate me?
You better ask the Roman church then, not me.
and as
a result your opinion may change.
Not without someone convincing me that what I believe is not the
Truth it won't.
So what the point of debating with you. Others believe in the resurrection,
you in the rebirthing. If you are happy with your belief, it's fine with
me. Why should I challenge you? I am not sure why this rebirthing stuff is
so important to you, that you try to evangelise others. Christians will not
accept it, so you call them fascists... Wow! Very smart... If you can't win
them, bash them.
But if it is the "Truth" to you, there is
no point to debate it.
This has to be one of the more bizarre statements I have heard.
And this is not the first time.
I don't know too many people who argue that their opinion is nothing
more than an opinion. Most people argue that their opinion is the
Truth. That is what the argument is about--whether or not they are
accurate in asserting that they are telling the Truth.
I don't. I argue about what I believe, and if one can present a good
argument, I consider it. What I believe is "Truth" to me, but it may not be
truth to others, so I will not care to call them fascist just because they
don't accept my views.
You too are claiming to tell the Truth, although possibly more
indirectly than I do.
I simply argue my case, which is what I believe. I never told anyone that
what I believe is the "Truth", because the Truth is absolute, and cannot be
challenged.
It does not offend me at all when people say that what they are
saying is the Truth. The Roman church says it; Christian evan-
gelists say it. They're just wrong; but it does not offend me that
they assert such a thing.
To claim that something is the "Truth" one must have absolute knowledge
about it's truthfulness. The apostles could claim that Jesus' resurrection
was Truth, because they witnessed it. I didn't, so I can only depend on
their testimonies.
For you to be offended that I claim to be telling the Truth and to
decline to debate with me on that basis...
Well, it just seems to be disingenuous.
If you state that the rebirthing stuff is what through your research came to
discover and be convinced of, that is different from stating that it is the
"Truth". Science doesn't work that way. It works on hypothesis and
theories. A theory may be accepted today and disposed tomorrow in the light
of new discoveries. So today they tell you that this or that theory fits
the facts, but they never tell you that it is the "Truth". The Truth is
absolute, it cannot be changed.
It appears to be nothing more than a feeble excuse for not
being able to present a credible argument that I am wrong.
You are welcome to take it as you wish. I am simply not interested in
debating it even though you might have been striving to find a debate
partner.
The Roman church does not claim that it is teaching an opinion
on the Teaching of Jesus.
Then why are different opinions expressed in different commentaries?
It claims that it is telling the Truth,
just as the rabbis and the Muslim religious officials claim about
the Torah and the Koran.
So what makes you any different?
Meanwhile, the monotonotheist Christian theologians have repeated
the same lies for almost 2000 years. But that is not at all boring.
Rather, it is entertaining for their listeners as well as profitable
for them.
As if it made any difference.
Sure does.
This is the 'genetic' origin of much of the violence in the Middle East
at this very moment. You probably don't believe in 'genes', do you?
I am not sure what all this means. All living have genes.
What holds you back from starting your own
religion?
Nah.
That was already done by Paul.
And Mohamed. But you canot convert anyone, so why don't you start your own
sect?
Or joining the New Age movement that already holds to your
"Truth"?
Clearly, you don't understand yet what I am saying to make such a
statement. And repeating won't help.
The New Age has rebirthing. They believe all your stuff.
--
Hieron
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| User: "Michael Cecil 28SW2" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
25 Jun 2004 05:16:03 PM |
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Hieron wrote:
Michael Cecil (28SW2) wrote:
Not without someone convincing me that what I believe is not the
Truth it won't.
So what the point of debating with you. Others believe in the resurrection,
you in the rebirthing. If you are happy with your belief, it's fine with
me. Why should I challenge you?
I would not exactly encourage you to challenge me.
You do not appear to be up to the task
I am not sure why this rebirthing stuff is
so important to you,
Then you don't understand what I am saying; either because you
don't want to or because you can't.
that you try to evangelise
One thing I *don't* do is 'evangelize'.
others. Christians will not
accept it, so you call them fascists
Sort of a simple-minded, simplistic view of things.
The fascism has to do with the suppression and censorship of
those who disagree with Christianity by the media.
The fascism has to do with the violence that was inflicted
against those who disagreed with Christianity hundreds of
years ago, to the point that many Christians actually believe
that there is perfect equality in the market-place of ideas and
that Christianity has 'won' by virtue of merely 'arguing' its
way into the top position.
But if it is the "Truth" to you, there is
no point to debate it.
This has to be one of the more bizarre statements I have heard.
And this is not the first time.
I don't know too many people who argue that their opinion is nothing
more than an opinion. Most people argue that their opinion is the
Truth. That is what the argument is about--whether or not they are
accurate in asserting that they are telling the Truth.
I don't.
You are either deluding yourself or you are lying.
Seriously.
My money is on 'deluding'.
I argue about what I believe, and if one can present a good
argument, I consider it. What I believe is "Truth" to me,
A few sentences ago you denied the same thing.
I won't tell you to 'make up your mind' because you can't.
You will sit on both sides of this fence depending upon the
exigencies of the moment.
but it may not be
truth to others,
If you believe there is no such thing as Truth, if you believe
all Truth is relative, if you believe that Relativity Theory was
merely truth to Einstein and classical physics was merely
truth to Newton, there is really no purpose in presenting any
argument.
so I will not care to call them fascist just because they
don't accept my views.
Neither do I. You don't know me.
There are very gentle-hearted people on this group who are
Christian but who I would not call fascists. They are des-
perately holding to a belief that makes sense to them. It
is those in positions of power, who use their theology to
make money and to control others who I refer to as fascists.
You too are claiming to tell the Truth, although possibly more
indirectly than I do.
I simply argue my case,
And the reason you argue, when you do, is because you think
what you believe is 'the' Truth.
which is what I believe. I never told anyone that
what I believe is the "Truth",
(Why do I get the image of a prostitute walking down the
street in a mini-skirt and 'war paint', denying that she is
encouraging men to bid for her 'services'?)
This is why the Roman church is symbolized by the *****
of Babylon in the Revelation of John, by the way.
But if someone said that what you believe is nothing but lies,
you would deny it. You appear to have more than one level of
self-deception. You are merely playing with words.
because the Truth is absolute, and cannot be
challenged.
Huhhhhhh?
What I say is challenged all the time. And yet I say it is the Truth.
So, what exactly does it mean to say that 'Truth cannot be chal-
lenged'?
On the other hand, you are unwilling to challenge what I have said,
so maybe the problem is with you rather than the Truth.
It does not offend me at all when people say that what they are
saying is the Truth. The Roman church says it; Christian evan-
gelists say it. They're just wrong; but it does not offend me that
they assert such a thing.
To claim that something is the "Truth" one must have absolute knowledge
about it's truthfulness.
Says who?
You?
On what basis?
Do you have absolute knowledge of the Truth of that statement?
Of course not. You simply assert that it is an absolute Truth and
should be accepted merely because you say so. You are uncon-
scious of the meaning of even the words that you use.
Do you claim that your statement is the Truth or do you merely claim
that you *believe* it is the Truth? (Don't bother answering. You would
merely lie again.)
The apostles could claim that Jesus' resurrection
was Truth, because they witnessed it. I didn't, so I can only depend on
their testimonies.
For you to be offended that I claim to be telling the Truth and to
decline to debate with me on that basis...
Well, it just seems to be disingenuous.
If you state that the rebirthing stuff is what through your research came to
discover
Not at all.
and be convinced of
Not at all.
You've never even read it, have you?
Not carefully anyway.
This is explained in some detail; but you have missed the details either
intentionally or unconsciously.
My money is on 'unconsciously'.
, that is different from stating that it is the
"Truth".
Of course it is.
Science doesn't work that way.
This is not science.
In any case, the scientific method itself is not based upon science;
it is based upon faith in a philosophical principle which cannot be
proven.
But you are not aware of that. And, in any case, you don't care.
It works on hypothesis and
theories.
The scientific method is a theory or hypothesis in and of itself.
This is neither an hypothesis nor a theory
A theory may be accepted today
The theory that science is the absolute Truth, for example.
and disposed tomorrow in the light
of new discoveries. So today they tell you that this or that theory fits
the facts, but they never tell you that it is the "Truth". The Truth is
absolute, it cannot be changed.
And I suppose you have proof of this.
This is one of those things you assert to be an 'absolute Truth' without
saying so.
'And the serpent was one of the most *subtle* beasts that the Lord
God had Created.'
It appears to be nothing more than a feeble excuse for not
being able to present a credible argument that I am wrong.
You are welcome to take it as you wish. I am simply not interested in
debating it even though you might have been striving to find a debate
partner.
The Roman church does not claim that it is teaching an opinion
on the Teaching of Jesus.
Then why are different opinions expressed in different commentaries?
Well, I guess you'd have to ask the Roman church.
It claims that it is telling the Truth,
just as the rabbis and the Muslim religious officials claim about
the Torah and the Koran.
So what makes you any different?
If I told you, you would not believe; if you believed, you would not
understand; if you understood, you would not care...
Which is what you freely admit--that you do not care.
Meanwhile, the monotonotheist Christian theologians have repeated
the same lies for almost 2000 years. But that is not at all boring.
Rather, it is entertaining for their listeners as well as profitable
for them.
As if it made any difference.
Sure does.
This is the 'genetic' origin of much of the violence in the Middle East
at this very moment. You probably don't believe in 'genes', do you?
I am not sure what all this means.
Then you have no understanding of anything I have said.
All living have genes.
(Smile)
All of a sudden I realize that I am having this discussion with an
18 year old.
What holds you back from starting your own
religion?
Nah.
That was already done by Paul.
And Mohamed.
Not really.
You wouldn't understand that either, though.
The New Age has rebirthing. They believe all your stuff.
Not really.
You wouldn't understand that either, though.
Michael Cecil
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: Vatican sees threat in alternative religions |
22 Jun 2004 05:25:41 PM |
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In article <33b7880.0406220401.332e991b@posting.google.com>, (jha_amin) wrote:
All in all, i figure a change would be in order. The last 2000 years
haven't worked out too well.
The whole bit with the whitewashed graves and the rending of the curtain for the
Holiest of Holies upon Jesus' death completely went over the Vatican's head.
(Either that, or they're ignoring it and hoping nobody else catches on ...)
Woods
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