The public debate proliferates, the chickenhawks' denials grow
stronger, the number of dead increases, and reality cannot be avoided:
Iraq is America’s second Vietnam!
By Stewart Nusbaumer
“This is not like Vietnam,” says Donald Shepperd, retired military
general and now military analyst for CNN. “It’s nothing like Vietnam.”
The purpose of these military generals turned media military analysts
is not to actually analyze the military situation in Iraq, but to echo
the Bush Administration here in America. Paid by large media
corporations for their access to the Pentagon, if they upset the White
House, they lose their coveted special access to the Pentagon and
their high-paying media jobs. “This is not like Vietnam,” the
mouthpiece tries to assure me.
Well, the American media did not report the Vietnam War well either.
The media was in bed with the Johnson, then the Nixon Administration,
not with the truth.
Although for months the Bush Administration has insisted there were
enough troops in Iraq, the U.S. military is now requesting more
troops. How many times during the Vietnam War did the U.S. military
insist it had enough soldiers, and then suddenly request more troops?
How many more troops will be required to pacify Iraq? The answer, like
in Vietnam, is this: there will never be enough troops.
At least 76 soldiers have been killed in Iraq this month and we’re not
even half way through April. Although not comparable to the peak
fighting months in Vietnam, this number easily surpasses the first
months of the U.S. presence in Vietnam. Iraq is a supercharged killing
field.
Let's understand, however, that the number of soldiers dying in Iraq
is not the number the Pentagon is telling the public. The Bush
Administration lied about why we had to go to war in Iraq, it lied why
we must remain in Iraq, would you be surprised to learn that they are
lying about the number of U.S. dead in Iraq?
The jungle of Vietnam has reemerged in the urban alleyways and
abandoned buildings of Iraqi cities, the number of American dead are
headed higher, and Americans are asking is this another Vietnam. But
what the public is not asking: who are those Americans that are dying
in Iraq?
They are of course not the children of the wealthy and privileged,
mostly not from the educated middle class. Our dead soldiers generally
had less resources and fewer options. In fact, most of those Americans
in Iraq were drafted. That’s right, an economic draft funnels our
rural and inner city youth into the military and allows other young
Americans not to die and lose limbs. Just like Vietnam.
And there are others, those who heard the call and responded to defend
their nation. They are the children of John Kennedy's plea: give to
your country. They are the best, and often the most idealistic,
Americans. And they are dying, some physically, more spiritually, in a
quagmire this time called Iraq.
Although the Bush Administration has been assuring us that the Iraqi
Army is being rebuilt and it would do the fighting instead of our
military, when the fighting erupted throughout Iraq last week, the
Iraqi military ran away or simply refused to fight. Iraqization is
failing, just like Vietnamization failed. There are reasons for this,
regardless of the name of the country, regardless of the location of
the war.
We are told that we “liberated” the Iraq people for “democracy.” As
for “those Iraqis not on board,” as the U.S. generals in Iraq refer to
them, they fear this freedom and democracy. When these same generals
get worked up, which is often, “those not on board” are called
“terrorists” who “have a different value system from us” and who
“don’t respect life.” Word for word, this is the rhetoric of Vietnam.
I would have thought they could have written a new script.
And then the biggie comparison: “the people are really on our side.”
Sounds great, but it is also irrelevant. Minorities, not majorities
create and fight guerrilla wars. I remember in Vietnam, right up to
the day that North Vietnamese troops walked into Saigon to the
cheering crowds of Saigonese, the United States had the support of
most Vietnamese. Well, that’s what U.S. officials said. I say it does
not matter; war, like occupation of a country, is not democracy.
Majorities are irrelevant; many say this has also become true in
America.
People never support occupying forces--the Vietnamese, the Iraqis.
Most people remain on the sideline until the victor becomes clear. But
never expect genuine support when you occupy a people, regardless of
what our media and the Bush Administration claims. Regardless of the
latest wind of who is on top. No one wants to be occupied by a foreign
power, and most wish the occupiers bad. We learned this in Vietnam.
As for U.S. strategy, we went in with “shock and awe” to scare the
beehives out of the “terrorists” and the military continues to rely on
force. The Bush Administration dismisses negotiations as weak and
unproductive. Yet, like in Vietnam, the U.S. military is engaging in
negotiations, negotiating with a powerful cleric, negotiating with
those holding U.S. prisoners. I read this in the newspaper, but don't
hear on CNN, certainly not Fox.
The “carrot and stick” approach is valued by our war planners; it
sounds good. It reminds us of our childhood. So the military rebuilds
a school, but it was U.S. airpower that destroyed the school. People
are not so stupid or blind not to see who blasted the school into
rubble of uselessness. People know those soldiers are not rebuilding
their country when they fix their own destruction. Never forget,
however, the greatest horrors of war cannot be fixed. They are the
dead children that were in that school.
We learned this in Vietnam that when you kill children, parents and
siblings don't forget. They have a lifetime of hate to kill you.
The greatest comparison of Iraq with Vietnam lies in strategy, to be
more accurate, in the lack of strategy. What we don’t know about the
people and their history and their thinking is substituted with pure
American arrogance. The hubris that led us into Iraq is fueling a
strategy that is confused and ineffective and will lead to our defeat.
In Vietnam we were clueless, until 1975 when we finally left their
country. In Iraq, we will leave the same way, in defeat by an enemy
and a people we never took the time and effort to understand. If we
had, we would have never gone into Iraq, just like we would have never
gone into Vietnam.
When the fundamental strategy and purpose is corrupt and ignorant,
then what follows cannot be good and effective. What follows, as sure
as night follows day, is defeat. We never learned from Vietnam, so
again we will have Vietnam.
The U.S. is attempting to set up a local government compatible with
“liberation” and “democracy,” but the locals call it a lackey
government. Who can forget the long string of “strong” government’s in
South Vietnam? To take over a people’s government merely throws insult
onto the raging fires of nationalism. To create lackeys and call it
democracy pushes good people to support those using violence against
the foreigners. Hypocrisy plays no better overseas than it does in
America, often worse.
If the Bush Administration’s purpose is to lose in Iraq and disgrace
the United States again, it deserves an A for strategic plan, and an
A+ for execution.
And now I’m listening to Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon’s architect of
failure in Vietnam, reassuring us that we are a good people and
everything will work out fine in Iraq. “We are doing this to help the
Iraqi people...we have a fundamental interest...we want to help them
with democracy there....
I turn the television off, but there is not silence. Instead a tired
whisper from the ugly past: “We had to destroy the nation to save it.”
Where will this end? I know. We all know. In another Vietnam.
.
|
|
| User: "dreamwalker" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
15 Apr 2004 12:29:46 AM |
|
|
"Zak" <Zak@home.com> wrote in message news:e0bq701nl0t3r5s66sh38ovvrv8ja92bup@4ax.com...
The public debate proliferates, the chickenhawks' denials grow
stronger, the number of dead increases, and reality cannot be avoided:
Iraq is America's second Vietnam!
By Stewart Nusbaumer
"This is not like Vietnam," says Donald Shepperd, retired military
general and now military analyst for CNN. "It's nothing like Vietnam."
The purpose of these military generals turned media military analysts
is not to actually analyze the military situation in Iraq, but to echo
the Bush Administration here in America. Paid by large media
corporations for their access to the Pentagon, if they upset the White
House, they lose their coveted special access to the Pentagon and
their high-paying media jobs. "This is not like Vietnam," the
mouthpiece tries to assure me.
Well, the American media did not report the Vietnam War well either.
The media was in bed with the Johnson, then the Nixon Administration,
not with the truth.
Although for months the Bush Administration has insisted there were
enough troops in Iraq, the U.S. military is now requesting more
troops. How many times during the Vietnam War did the U.S. military
insist it had enough soldiers, and then suddenly request more troops?
How many more troops will be required to pacify Iraq? The answer, like
in Vietnam, is this: there will never be enough troops.
At least 76 soldiers have been killed in Iraq this month and we're not
even half way through April. Although not comparable to the peak
fighting months in Vietnam, this number easily surpasses the first
months of the U.S. presence in Vietnam. Iraq is a supercharged killing
field.
Let's understand, however, that the number of soldiers dying in Iraq
is not the number the Pentagon is telling the public. The Bush
Administration lied about why we had to go to war in Iraq, it lied why
we must remain in Iraq, would you be surprised to learn that they are
lying about the number of U.S. dead in Iraq?
The jungle of Vietnam has reemerged in the urban alleyways and
abandoned buildings of Iraqi cities, the number of American dead are
headed higher, and Americans are asking is this another Vietnam. But
what the public is not asking: who are those Americans that are dying
in Iraq?
They are of course not the children of the wealthy and privileged,
mostly not from the educated middle class. Our dead soldiers generally
had less resources and fewer options. In fact, most of those Americans
in Iraq were drafted. That's right, an economic draft funnels our
rural and inner city youth into the military and allows other young
Americans not to die and lose limbs. Just like Vietnam.
And there are others, those who heard the call and responded to defend
their nation. They are the children of John Kennedy's plea: give to
your country. They are the best, and often the most idealistic,
Americans. And they are dying, some physically, more spiritually, in a
quagmire this time called Iraq.
Although the Bush Administration has been assuring us that the Iraqi
Army is being rebuilt and it would do the fighting instead of our
military, when the fighting erupted throughout Iraq last week, the
Iraqi military ran away or simply refused to fight. Iraqization is
failing, just like Vietnamization failed. There are reasons for this,
regardless of the name of the country, regardless of the location of
the war.
We are told that we "liberated" the Iraq people for "democracy." As
for "those Iraqis not on board," as the U.S. generals in Iraq refer to
them, they fear this freedom and democracy. When these same generals
get worked up, which is often, "those not on board" are called
"terrorists" who "have a different value system from us" and who
"don't respect life." Word for word, this is the rhetoric of Vietnam.
I would have thought they could have written a new script.
And then the biggie comparison: "the people are really on our side."
Sounds great, but it is also irrelevant. Minorities, not majorities
create and fight guerrilla wars. I remember in Vietnam, right up to
the day that North Vietnamese troops walked into Saigon to the
cheering crowds of Saigonese, the United States had the support of
most Vietnamese. Well, that's what U.S. officials said. I say it does
not matter; war, like occupation of a country, is not democracy.
Majorities are irrelevant; many say this has also become true in
America.
People never support occupying forces--the Vietnamese, the Iraqis.
Most people remain on the sideline until the victor becomes clear. But
never expect genuine support when you occupy a people, regardless of
what our media and the Bush Administration claims. Regardless of the
latest wind of who is on top. No one wants to be occupied by a foreign
power, and most wish the occupiers bad. We learned this in Vietnam.
As for U.S. strategy, we went in with "shock and awe" to scare the
beehives out of the "terrorists" and the military continues to rely on
force. The Bush Administration dismisses negotiations as weak and
unproductive. Yet, like in Vietnam, the U.S. military is engaging in
negotiations, negotiating with a powerful cleric, negotiating with
those holding U.S. prisoners. I read this in the newspaper, but don't
hear on CNN, certainly not Fox.
The "carrot and stick" approach is valued by our war planners; it
sounds good. It reminds us of our childhood. So the military rebuilds
a school, but it was U.S. airpower that destroyed the school. People
are not so stupid or blind not to see who blasted the school into
rubble of uselessness. People know those soldiers are not rebuilding
their country when they fix their own destruction. Never forget,
however, the greatest horrors of war cannot be fixed. They are the
dead children that were in that school.
We learned this in Vietnam that when you kill children, parents and
siblings don't forget. They have a lifetime of hate to kill you.
The greatest comparison of Iraq with Vietnam lies in strategy, to be
more accurate, in the lack of strategy. What we don't know about the
people and their history and their thinking is substituted with pure
American arrogance. The hubris that led us into Iraq is fueling a
strategy that is confused and ineffective and will lead to our defeat.
In Vietnam we were clueless, until 1975 when we finally left their
country. In Iraq, we will leave the same way, in defeat by an enemy
and a people we never took the time and effort to understand. If we
had, we would have never gone into Iraq, just like we would have never
gone into Vietnam.
When the fundamental strategy and purpose is corrupt and ignorant,
then what follows cannot be good and effective. What follows, as sure
as night follows day, is defeat. We never learned from Vietnam, so
again we will have Vietnam.
The U.S. is attempting to set up a local government compatible with
"liberation" and "democracy," but the locals call it a lackey
government. Who can forget the long string of "strong" government's in
South Vietnam? To take over a people's government merely throws insult
onto the raging fires of nationalism. To create lackeys and call it
democracy pushes good people to support those using violence against
the foreigners. Hypocrisy plays no better overseas than it does in
America, often worse.
If the Bush Administration's purpose is to lose in Iraq and disgrace
the United States again, it deserves an A for strategic plan, and an
A+ for execution.
And now I'm listening to Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon's architect of
failure in Vietnam, reassuring us that we are a good people and
everything will work out fine in Iraq. "We are doing this to help the
Iraqi people...we have a fundamental interest...we want to help them
with democracy there....
I turn the television off, but there is not silence. Instead a tired
whisper from the ugly past: "We had to destroy the nation to save it."
Where will this end? I know. We all know. In another Vietnam.
Maybe. The way Washington has decided to fight the battle of Fallujah is a joke. Over 50 US Marines
gave their lives for a position in the city. Then some Washington pinhead tells them to pull back
for a ceasefire. What a fucking joke.
Fallujah is going to be a bloodbath. Even more Marines will loose their lives following the
ceasefire. I hope to hell the boys of Big Red bring along their chem-suits. This one is going to get
real ugly.
.
|
|
|
| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
15 Apr 2004 11:08:24 AM |
|
|
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the Military do what it is capable of doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
Tony
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
15 Apr 2004 04:40:49 PM |
|
|
In article <20040415120824.17367.00000495@mb-m16.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the Military do what it is capable of doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
The Brits had a similar attitude.
Woods
.
|
|
|
| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
16 Apr 2004 04:39:35 AM |
|
|
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun)
wrote:
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the >>Military do what it is capable of doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
The Brits had a similar attitude.
Woods
Come on, first of all the Brits were ruling over the Iraqi's, we want to help
them become a self ruling democracy.
Secondly, you are talking about the British forces of 100 years ago and trying
to compare them to our forces today, there is no comparision.
Tony
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woodswun" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
16 Apr 2004 04:40:31 PM |
|
|
In article <20040416053935.03548.00000318@mb-m25.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun)
wrote:
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the >>Military do what it is capable of doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
The Brits had a similar attitude.
Woods
Come on, first of all the Brits were ruling over the Iraqi's, we want to help
them become a self ruling democracy.
Actually, I was referring to Brits/Colony.
Secondly, you are talking about the British forces of 100 years ago and trying
to compare them to our forces today, there is no comparision.
200+ years ago, actually.
Sorry, Tony, but guerilla warfare is very difficult to defend against.
Woods
.
|
|
|
| User: "dreamwalker" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
16 Apr 2004 10:30:18 PM |
|
|
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpYfc.85772$e17.61925@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040416053935.03548.00000318@mb-m25.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun)
wrote:
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the >>Military do what it is capable of doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
The Brits had a similar attitude.
Woods
Come on, first of all the Brits were ruling over the Iraqi's, we want to help
them become a self ruling democracy.
Actually, I was referring to Brits/Colony.
Secondly, you are talking about the British forces of 100 years ago and trying
to compare them to our forces today, there is no comparision.
200+ years ago, actually.
Sorry, Tony, but guerilla warfare is very difficult to defend against.
Woods
It is difficult to defend against. But it's much easier to take the offensive. What the US troops in
Fallujah have been reduced to is taking a defensive posture. Sad, very sad. A full land/air assualt
of Fallujah would last not weeks but days. That city should've been secured many weeks ago. In the
end it might not be such a bad deal. Many of the Bathist and foreigners have settle in this city.
Nothing like having most of the criminals in one place.
Vietnam had a huge surge of arms and money from both China and the USSR. The insurgency in Iraq has
no steady feeder.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Krib" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
17 Apr 2004 04:16:15 AM |
|
|
"dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.com> wrote in message
news:37aff$4080a4c9$407628e5
A full land/air assualt of Fallujah would last not weeks but days.
And would result in the deaths of many civilians and ruin any chance of
peace in Iraq. Not only would the troops lose any chance of stability in
Fallujah they'd also lose it in most of Iraq. Then you'd have every nation
in the region baying for blood and righteously claiming a crusade against
them.
That city should've been secured many weeks ago. In the
end it might not be such a bad deal. Many of the Bathist and
foreigners have settle in this city.
Nothing like having most of the criminals in one place.
Only problem is telling them from the civvies, if you go in heavy handed
like you want then you'll turn the populace against the troops and have
no chance of routing the real enemy.
Vietnam had a huge surge of arms and money from both China and the USSR.
The insurgency in Iraq has no steady feeder.
Do you really believe lack of funds would stop the locals reacting against
the type of stupid force you recommend?
--
krib
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
17 Apr 2004 06:45:26 AM |
|
|
"dreamwalker"
wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpYfc.85772$e17.61925@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040416053935.03548.00000318@mb-m25.aol.com>,
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun)
wrote:
tonyz2001@aol.com (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the >>Military do what it is capable of
doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
The Brits had a similar attitude.
Woods
Come on, first of all the Brits were ruling over the Iraqi's, we want to
help
them become a self ruling democracy.
Actually, I was referring to Brits/Colony.
Secondly, you are talking about the British forces of 100 years ago and
trying
to compare them to our forces today, there is no comparision.
200+ years ago, actually.
Sorry, Tony, but guerilla warfare is very difficult to defend against.
Woods
It is difficult to defend against. But it's >much easier to take the
offensive. What the US troops in
Fallujah have been reduced to is taking a >defensive posture. Sad, very sad.
Yes it is sad, our politicians have once again tied the hands of our Military.
A full land/air assualt
of Fallujah would last not weeks but >days. That city should've been secured
many weeks ago.
It should have been rolled over exactly one year ago. Fallujah was not touched
by our initial invasion and subsequent battles.
In the end it might not be such a bad >deal. Many of the Bathist and
foreigners >have settle in this city.
Nothing like having most of the criminals >in one place.
True, get the women and children out of the city, then let the game being. Then
we'll find out just how tough those cowards are.
Vietnam had a huge surge of arms and >money from both China and the USSR. >The
insurgency in Iraq has no steady >feeder.
Although not on par with those 2 Communist regimes, there is a flow of weapons
into Iraq, the insurgents certainly don't seem to be lacking for weapons and
ammo.
Tony
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
18 Apr 2004 07:45:50 AM |
|
|
(TonyZ2001) wrote in message news:<20040417074526.08929.00000072@mb-m11.aol.com>...
"dreamwalker"
wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpYfc.85772$e17.61925@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <20040416053935.03548.00000318@mb-m25.aol.com>,
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
woodswun@tepidmail.com (Woodswun)
wrote:
(TonyZ2001) wrote:
Only if the politicians want it to be.
On the other hand, if they let the >>Military do what it is capable of
doing,
then this thing will be over soon.
The Brits had a similar attitude.
Woods
Come on, first of all the Brits were ruling over the Iraqi's, we want to
help
them become a self ruling democracy.
Actually, I was referring to Brits/Colony.
Secondly, you are talking about the British forces of 100 years ago and
trying
to compare them to our forces today, there is no comparision.
200+ years ago, actually.
Sorry, Tony, but guerilla warfare is very difficult to defend against.
To Woods: especially when we are feeding the guerillas.
It is difficult to defend against. But it's >much easier to take the
offensive. What the US troops in
Fallujah have been reduced to is taking a >defensive posture. Sad, very sad.
Yes it is sad, our politicians have once again tied the hands of our Military.
A full land/air assualt
of Fallujah would last not weeks but >days. That city should've been secured
many weeks ago.
It should have been rolled over exactly one year ago. Fallujah was not touched
by our initial invasion and subsequent battles.
In the end it might not be such a bad >deal. Many of the Bathist and
foreigners >have settle in this city.
Nothing like having most of the criminals >in one place.
True, get the women and children out of the city, then let the game being. Then
we'll find out just how tough those cowards are.
Vietnam had a huge surge of arms and >money from both China and the USSR. >The
insurgency in Iraq has no steady >feeder.
Iran and Syria are providing arms and troops. The U.S. provided
plenty of supplies.
Although not on par with those 2 Communist regimes, there is a flow of weapons
into Iraq, the insurgents certainly don't seem to be lacking for weapons and
ammo.
What is wrong with you, Tony!? You think a cease-fire should mean
both sides stop shooting??? Crazy man. Dont you think we should have
seen the problem of Syrian and Iranian aid to insurgents BEFORE we
attacked? I'd be willing to bet that there are more than weapons
flowing across Syrian and Iranian borders.
We may not lose 30K+ troops in Iraq, but it is certainly a fustercluck
with no positive outcome in sight. Bush thought Saddam and his
crippled country were a threat? Wait til he sees what ends up
replacing him. This June 30th handover should be a very sad yet funny
event. Without a strong leader in Iraq, the country is up for grabs,
and if we pull out (which is likely with the advent of the Kerry
administration), you're likely to see the most brutal, single-minded
anti-Israel regime in the history of the middle east.
I cant imagine a positive outcome for Iraq. There are too many
religious and racial factions, too many foreign interests, and too
many U.S. lives at stake. All those religious and racial factions
have a common enemy right now--the U.S. Once the U.S. pulls out, it's
going to be a blood bath.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Absolute Zero" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
18 Apr 2004 01:54:15 PM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404180445.6738aae7@posting.google.com...
[...]
What is wrong with you, Tony!? You think a cease-fire should mean
both sides stop shooting??? Crazy man. Dont you think we should have
seen the problem of Syrian and Iranian aid to insurgents BEFORE we
attacked? I'd be willing to bet that there are more than weapons
flowing across Syrian and Iranian borders.
We may not lose 30K+ troops in Iraq, but it is certainly a fustercluck
with no positive outcome in sight. Bush thought Saddam and his
crippled country were a threat? Wait til he sees what ends up
replacing him. This June 30th handover should be a very sad yet funny
event. Without a strong leader in Iraq, the country is up for grabs,
and if we pull out (which is likely with the advent of the Kerry
administration),
Suitably grim, however...
I doubt that, Kerry's recent pronouncements *seem* to back me up...
besides,
not being the incumbant affords one certain luxuries, like being able
to say what you'd like to do, before reality bites.
The only thing that bugs me about a Kerry win is that the likes of
Tony (who
should be placed in stocks and pelted with rotten vedgtables for what
he and
his ilk have achieved) will say how different it would have been if
Bush had
won a second term.
Neither Kerry nor Bush will be able extricate the US for 10+ years.
Lot's of
bodybags and trillions of dollars. Welcome to neo-con nirvana (may
they rot
in hell).
-A
you're likely to see the most brutal, single-minded
anti-Israel regime in the history of the middle east.
I cant imagine a positive outcome for Iraq. There are too many
religious and racial factions, too many foreign interests, and too
many U.S. lives at stake. All those religious and racial factions
have a common enemy right now--the U.S. Once the U.S. pulls out, it's
going to be a blood bath.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
26 Apr 2004 04:37:25 PM |
|
|
Are the Republicans Widow Makers..?...and others....?
~
Iraq Is a Military Blunder
and a Quagmire that leads to wasted lives...
many killed and wounded every day
~suicide mission......in a illegal "war"
and money better spent in the U.S.
it's part of a hidden agenda at this point...... some people make money
on wars.....
and billions wasted on a stupid project....
~
Is the "war" ~soldiers walking and driving around getting ambushed from
a distance~ even legal at this point? ~no WMD ~ no right or reason to
occupy a country~the terrorists were/are in Afghanistan and from
Arabia.....it's all just propaganda and political image for the
election...
~
is there al legal way for soldiers to get out of
Iraq?.....wwwobjector.prg
Misrepresentation, breach of contact, breach of Fiduciary, it's a
suicide mission......so to speak.....what it boils down to..
~
=A0=A0Israel/Palestine conflict is the source of the hate as well as the
"mischief" of human nature..
There has been no proven connection between 9/11 and Iraq. the soldiers
should get lawyers and get out if asked to stay longer or at all~they
did not sign on for
this...www.objector.org.......................................
..use airplanes if there is a reason or get out.....
"Nothing is Impossible in Iraq but reform" ......~Oscar Wilde....
it will be on the History Channel Someday as such.........a Military
Blunder .....just like Viet Nam.....
.
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| User: "Grantland" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
18 Apr 2004 03:08:48 PM |
|
|
(Absolute Zero) wrote:
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404180445.6738aae7@posting.google.com...
[...]
What is wrong with you, Tony!? You think a cease-fire should mean
both sides stop shooting??? Crazy man. Dont you think we should have
seen the problem of Syrian and Iranian aid to insurgents BEFORE we
attacked? I'd be willing to bet that there are more than weapons
flowing across Syrian and Iranian borders.
We may not lose 30K+ troops in Iraq, but it is certainly a fustercluck
with no positive outcome in sight. Bush thought Saddam and his
crippled country were a threat? Wait til he sees what ends up
replacing him. This June 30th handover should be a very sad yet funny
event. Without a strong leader in Iraq, the country is up for grabs,
and if we pull out (which is likely with the advent of the Kerry
administration),
Suitably grim, however...
I doubt that, Kerry's recent pronouncements *seem* to back me up...
besides,
not being the incumbant affords one certain luxuries, like being able
to say what you'd like to do, before reality bites.
The only thing that bugs me about a Kerry win is that the likes of
Tony (who
should be placed in stocks and pelted with rotten vedgtables for what
he and
his ilk have achieved) will say how different it would have been if
Bush had
won a second term.
Neither Kerry nor Bush will be able extricate the US for 10+ years.
Lot's of
bodybags and trillions of dollars. Welcome to neo-con nirvana (may
they rot
in hell).
-A
Cheer up there sister. The Gaia Messiah will save it all with a snap
of his Golden fingers. Noproblemo.
Grantland
.
|
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| User: "Grantland" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
18 Apr 2004 08:38:04 AM |
|
|
(Anon Ymous) wrote:
Once the U.S. pulls out, it's going to be a blood bath.
S~
*****. The plan is for a tri-confederation with maximum state
autonomy. And minimal central taxes. Idiot.
Grantland
.
|
|
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| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
18 Apr 2004 10:34:38 PM |
|
|
(Grantland) wrote in message news:<408283fe.266693775@ct-news.iafrica.com>...
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote:
Once the U.S. pulls out, it's going to be a blood bath.
S~
*****. The plan is for a tri-confederation with maximum state
autonomy.
Oh, I see, so you think that once the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, the
three factions (who hate each others' guts, and were formerly held in
check by the ruthlessness of Saddam AND who all will have "maximum
autonomy"--lol) will all gather round in a great big circle, hold
hands and sing Kumbaya. And Iran and Syria, who most likely have all
sorts of "freedom fighters" in Iraq now, will recall their guerillas,
sit back, relax and cheer the U.N. solution instead of hamstringing
and taking advantage of it?
*boggle*
Idiot.
Said the fly to the spider.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Grantland" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
18 Apr 2004 11:02:13 PM |
|
|
(Anon Ymous) wrote:
Once the U.S. pulls out, it's going to be a blood bath.
S~
*****. The plan is for a tri-confederation with maximum state
autonomy.
Oh, I see, so you think that once the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, the
three factions (who hate each others' guts, and were formerly held in
check by the ruthlessness of Saddam AND who all will have "maximum
autonomy"--lol) will all gather round in a great big circle, hold
hands and sing Kumbaya.
Its already happening.
And Iran and Syria, who most likely have all
sorts of "freedom fighters" in Iraq now, will recall their guerillas,
sit back, relax and cheer the U.N. solution instead of hamstringing
and taking advantage of it?
Its not a UN solution. Its an Iraqi solution. Iran and Syria would
appreciate it.
Grantland
*boggle*
Idiot.
Said the fly to the spider.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
19 Apr 2004 12:33:24 PM |
|
|
(Grantland) wrote in message news:<40834e38.318464637@ct-news.iafrica.com>...
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote:
Once the U.S. pulls out, it's going to be a blood bath.
S~
*****. The plan is for a tri-confederation with maximum state
autonomy.
Oh, I see, so you think that once the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, the
three factions (who hate each others' guts, and were formerly held in
check by the ruthlessness of Saddam AND who all will have "maximum
autonomy"--lol) will all gather round in a great big circle, hold
hands and sing Kumbaya.
Its already happening.
....while the U.S. troops are still in country and while the Iraqis and
visiting Iranians and Syrians all have more inviting targets to shoot
at than each other. Once the U.S. troops bug out, one of those three
factions (probably the one closest in philosophy to Iran) will emerge
as the big dog. That's when the fun starts.
And Iran and Syria, who most likely have all
sorts of "freedom fighters" in Iraq now, will recall their guerillas,
sit back, relax and cheer the U.N. solution instead of hamstringing
and taking advantage of it?
Its not a UN solution. Its an Iraqi solution. Iran and Syria would
appreciate it.
It certainly is a UN solution. Whether or not they stole it from the
Iraqis or vice versa, I cant say. Syria and especially Iran will
greatly appreciate a divided Iraq with a shattered military in the
midst of a civil war.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "cesar" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
19 Apr 2004 05:19:52 PM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404190933.2dbd2528@posting.google.com...
mithril@iafrica.com (Grantland) wrote in message
news:<40834e38.318464637@ct-news.iafrica.com>...
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote:
Once the U.S. pulls out, it's going to be a blood bath.
S~
*****. The plan is for a tri-confederation with maximum state
autonomy.
Oh, I see, so you think that once the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, the
three factions (who hate each others' guts, and were formerly held in
check by the ruthlessness of Saddam AND who all will have "maximum
autonomy"--lol) will all gather round in a great big circle, hold
hands and sing Kumbaya.
Its already happening.
...while the U.S. troops are still in country and while the Iraqis and
visiting Iranians and Syrians all have more inviting targets to shoot
at than each other. Once the U.S. troops bug out, one of those three
factions (probably the one closest in philosophy to Iran) will emerge
as the big dog. That's when the fun starts.
And Iran and Syria, who most likely have all
sorts of "freedom fighters" in Iraq now, will recall their guerillas,
sit back, relax and cheer the U.N. solution instead of hamstringing
and taking advantage of it?
Its not a UN solution. Its an Iraqi solution. Iran and Syria would
appreciate it.
It certainly is a UN solution. Whether or not they stole it from the
Iraqis or vice versa, I cant say. Syria and especially Iran will
greatly appreciate a divided Iraq with a shattered military in the
midst of a civil war.
I think Shasta is right. If I were to think like Rumsfeld, the strategy
would be divide and conquor. Create a situation ripe for civil war; step
back; let the factions duke it out among themselves; get Iran and Syria to
bud in; accuse them of meddling; let them mobilize and when the timing is
right, Wham! An all out war in the Middle East and crush them all in one
fell swoop. Well, so far so good for that part.
People who are too snug with their big weapons and too sure of themselves
forget or tend to overlook basic human emotions. When you push rats into a
corner, they do remarkable things. When those people in that region get
desperate, they will do the "scorched earth" thing. Yup, let the whole
place on fire. Come and git it while it's hot. Why do you think the bible
warns of a Lake of Fire? So they better think again and not force the
Iranians to mobilize.
Better find a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will never learn.
They are going to ruin it for the whole world and they are going to drown
like rats in their spider holes (talk about Saddam) if they think they can
beat the Wrath of God and survive Armageddon. Fools. Not only will they
lose the world they think they've conquored, they'll lose their miserable
souls.
cesar
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
20 Apr 2004 08:24:20 PM |
|
|
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358$9kJ.5641@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404190933.2dbd2528@posting.google.com...
mithril@iafrica.com (Grantland) wrote in message
news:<40834e38.318464637@ct-news.iafrica.com>...
shastaman@my-deja.com (Anon Ymous) wrote:
Once the U.S. pulls out, it's going to be a blood bath.
S~
*****. The plan is for a tri-confederation with maximum state
autonomy.
Oh, I see, so you think that once the U.S. pulls out of Iraq, the
three factions (who hate each others' guts, and were formerly held in
check by the ruthlessness of Saddam AND who all will have "maximum
autonomy"--lol) will all gather round in a great big circle, hold
hands and sing Kumbaya.
Its already happening.
...while the U.S. troops are still in country and while the Iraqis and
visiting Iranians and Syrians all have more inviting targets to shoot
at than each other. Once the U.S. troops bug out, one of those three
factions (probably the one closest in philosophy to Iran) will emerge
as the big dog. That's when the fun starts.
And Iran and Syria, who most likely have all
sorts of "freedom fighters" in Iraq now, will recall their guerillas,
sit back, relax and cheer the U.N. solution instead of hamstringing
and taking advantage of it?
Its not a UN solution. Its an Iraqi solution. Iran and Syria would
appreciate it.
It certainly is a UN solution. Whether or not they stole it from the
Iraqis or vice versa, I cant say. Syria and especially Iran will
greatly appreciate a divided Iraq with a shattered military in the
midst of a civil war.
I think Shasta is right.
Ok, Grantland, I concede that you were right. Everything in Iraq will
be just fine. The U.S. should pull out immediately and leave the
security of the country to the tri-lateral confederation.
<snip misinterpretation>
People who are too snug with their big weapons and too sure of themselves
forget or tend to overlook basic human emotions. When you push rats into a
corner, they do remarkable things. When those people in that region get
desperate, they will do the "scorched earth" thing. Yup, let the whole
place on fire. Come and git it while it's hot. Why do you think the bible
warns of a Lake of Fire?
Maybe because, time is the fire in which we burn.
Better find a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will never learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions from
the profit received by stockholders.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "cesar" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
20 Apr 2004 09:07:10 PM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404201724.58a41815@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358> > Better find
a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will never
learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions from
the profit received by stockholders.
Oh, the good ol' boys at the boards of directors doing their best to please
those evil, selfish, greedy idol worshipping stockholders, eh? Everyone
who owns stocks have blood on their hands. The companies making and selling
the RFID Microchips the "Mark of the Beast" are actually publicly traded
companies and their stockholders will be "making a killing" soon.
cesar
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
21 Apr 2004 12:24:22 AM |
|
|
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<iHkhc.19058$W1b1.11332@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404201724.58a41815@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358> > Better find
a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will never
learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions from
the profit received by stockholders.
Oh, the good ol' boys at the boards of directors doing their best to please
those evil, selfish, greedy idol worshipping stockholders, eh?
Negative Mr. fake Christ follower, save your judgement for when you
actually have some discernment. The boards of directors are trying to
please those innocent, ignorant, just trying to get by and save for
retirement, mass of stockholders who are one step removed from the
decision-making process and arent aware of all of the consequences of
the decisions their board of directors make... like Enron and all
those Enron employees screwed out of their lives' savings for
instance. Thanks for another example of your complete lack of
understanding regarding your supposed master's teachings, and rush to
incompetent, unjust and severe judgement. By your own measure, bozo.
<snip paranoid bastardization of common and erroneous Christian
interpretation of the Mark of the beast>
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "cesar" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
21 Apr 2004 07:00:09 AM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404202124.6d9c868d@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<iHkhc.19058$W1b1.11332@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404201724.58a41815@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358> > Better
find
a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will never
learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions from
the profit received by stockholders.
Oh, the good ol' boys at the boards of directors doing their best to
please
those evil, selfish, greedy idol worshipping stockholders, eh?
Negative Mr. fake Christ follower, save your judgement for when you
actually have some discernment. The boards of directors are trying to
please those innocent, ignorant, just trying to get by and save for
retirement, mass of stockholders who are one step removed from the
decision-making process and arent aware of all of the consequences of
the decisions their board of directors make... like Enron and all
those Enron employees screwed out of their lives' savings for
instance. Thanks for another example of your complete lack of
understanding regarding your supposed master's teachings, and rush to
incompetent, unjust and severe judgement. By your own measure, bozo.
<snip paranoid bastardization of common and erroneous Christian
interpretation of the Mark of the beast>
Relax. It was a hyperbolic sarcasm.
cesar
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
21 Apr 2004 06:00:57 PM |
|
|
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<dnthc.180214$2oI1.156185@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404202124.6d9c868d@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<iHkhc.19058$W1b1.11332@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404201724.58a41815@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358> > Better
find
a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will never
learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions from
the profit received by stockholders.
Oh, the good ol' boys at the boards of directors doing their best to
please
those evil, selfish, greedy idol worshipping stockholders, eh?
Negative Mr. fake Christ follower, save your judgement for when you
actually have some discernment. The boards of directors are trying to
please those innocent, ignorant, just trying to get by and save for
retirement, mass of stockholders who are one step removed from the
decision-making process and arent aware of all of the consequences of
the decisions their board of directors make... like Enron and all
those Enron employees screwed out of their lives' savings for
instance. Thanks for another example of your complete lack of
understanding regarding your supposed master's teachings, and rush to
incompetent, unjust and severe judgement. By your own measure, bozo.
<snip paranoid bastardization of common and erroneous Christian
interpretation of the Mark of the beast>
Relax. It was a hyperbolic sarcasm.
I'm quite at ease in pointing out your hypocrisy, I assure you. And
as for sarcasm, you'd have to use that cop-out on about 75 percent of
your anti-American posts over the last 8 years to convince me of that.
For someone so "at peace with himself" (lol) you certainly are quick
to condemn others as evil idol-worshipping satanists.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "cesar" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
21 Apr 2004 07:12:03 PM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404211500.30fddb7c@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<dnthc.180214$2oI1.156185@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404202124.6d9c868d@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<iHkhc.19058$W1b1.11332@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404201724.58a41815@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358> >
Better
find
a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will
never
learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions
from
the profit received by stockholders.
Oh, the good ol' boys at the boards of directors doing their best to
please
those evil, selfish, greedy idol worshipping stockholders, eh?
Negative Mr. fake Christ follower, save your judgement for when you
actually have some discernment. The boards of directors are trying to
please those innocent, ignorant, just trying to get by and save for
retirement, mass of stockholders who are one step removed from the
decision-making process and arent aware of all of the consequences of
the decisions their board of directors make... like Enron and all
those Enron employees screwed out of their lives' savings for
instance. Thanks for another example of your complete lack of
understanding regarding your supposed master's teachings, and rush to
incompetent, unjust and severe judgement. By your own measure, bozo.
<snip paranoid bastardization of common and erroneous Christian
interpretation of the Mark of the beast>
Relax. It was a hyperbolic sarcasm.
I'm quite at ease in pointing out your hypocrisy, I assure you. And
as for sarcasm, you'd have to use that cop-out on about 75 percent of
your anti-American posts over the last 8 years to convince me of that.
For someone so "at peace with himself" (lol) you certainly are quick
to condemn others as evil idol-worshipping satanists.
Sarcasm means there is an element of truth in it. Stockholders are a greedy
bunch. We want the stock prices to keep rising. We want a high dividend.
The entire world operates on the principle of Greed. "What's in it for me?"
Supply vs demand. Maximum return on investment. That is the essence of
Capitalism. I have news for you. The Middle Class are ALL evil. We are
ALL worshippers of Mammon. Unless you're an ascetic, a homeless, a monk
sworn to poverty or a starving African with nothing. What can we do about
it? That is the PLAN of the God who created us. Every man for himself but
stay within the Law. So are we all guilty? Absolutely! That's why there
has to be a time of Repentance to be saved from this world of Haves and
Have-nots. Maybe you and I have a different understanding of what "evil"
means. It is after all subject to interpretation as I had written in an
earlier post about the Geneology of Morals.
cesar
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
22 Apr 2004 12:40:13 AM |
|
|
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<n5Ehc.192100$2oI1.191238@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404211500.30fddb7c@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<dnthc.180214$2oI1.156185@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404202124.6d9c868d@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<iHkhc.19058$W1b1.11332@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404201724.58a41815@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<cgYgc.39358> >
Better
find
a better way for the world to survive and to get along than to
destroy, decimate and conquor. These corporate savages will
never
learn.
Well here, we I actually agree with you, cesar. I think the
corporations (specifically defense, energy and "rebuilding"
corporations) have a lot to do with the current mess, but you are
still mistaken in labeling them satanic or stupid. They are greed
organisms which separate the consequences of unethical actions
from
the profit received by stockholders.
Oh, the good ol' boys at the boards of directors doing their best to
please
those evil, selfish, greedy idol worshipping stockholders, eh?
Negative Mr. fake Christ follower, save your judgement for when you
actually have some discernment. The boards of directors are trying to
please those innocent, ignorant, just trying to get by and save for
retirement, mass of stockholders who are one step removed from the
decision-making process and arent aware of all of the consequences of
the decisions their board of directors make... like Enron and all
those Enron employees screwed out of their lives' savings for
instance. Thanks for another example of your complete lack of
understanding regarding your supposed master's teachings, and rush to
incompetent, unjust and severe judgement. By your own measure, bozo.
<snip paranoid bastardization of common and erroneous Christian
interpretation of the Mark of the beast>
Relax. It was a hyperbolic sarcasm.
I'm quite at ease in pointing out your hypocrisy, I assure you. And
as for sarcasm, you'd have to use that cop-out on about 75 percent of
your anti-American posts over the last 8 years to convince me of that.
For someone so "at peace with himself" (lol) you certainly are quick
to condemn others as evil idol-worshipping satanists.
Sarcasm means there is an element of truth in it. Stockholders are a greedy
bunch. We want the stock prices to keep rising. We want a high dividend.
The entire world operates on the principle of Greed. "What's in it for me?"
Greed
1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth)
than one needs or deserves
Notice the use of the word excessive. I realize you arent the
brightest bulb in the closet, but you need to make a distinction
between greed and the healthy desire for prosperity. They arent the
same thing. The world does not run on the principal of greed, and
your suggestion to the contrary probably says alot about you. The
Enron stockholders, mostly employees who had worked their entire lives
to save up for retirement, were not greedy. I know you want them to
be so you can judge them, but they just werent. When you get the
chance to apply your mind-numbingly ignorant and severe measure to
yourself, you'll see what I mean.
Supply vs demand. Maximum return on investment. That is the essence of
Capitalism. I have news for you. The Middle Class are ALL evil.
And I have news for you. You arent God. You arent anyone's judge.
In fact, youre low on the human scale let alone compared to the
understanding necessary to accurately judge another. You are patently
incapable of determining whether or not another person is evil. The
one you call master plainly commanded you not to judge others, yet you
do so in nearly every post. Semantics cant and wont cover your
typical judgemental knee-jerk reaction. Time to take an honest look
at those shortcomings there, cesar notaprophet, instead of trying to
twist it to fit your delusions.
S~
.
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|
|
| User: "cesar" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
22 Apr 2004 08:52:23 AM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404212140.2b56cc22@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<n5Ehc.192100$2oI1.191238@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
Sarcasm means there is an element of truth in it. Stockholders are a
greedy
bunch. We want the stock prices to keep rising. We want a high
dividend.
The entire world operates on the principle of Greed. "What's in it for
me?"
Greed
1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth)
than one needs or deserves
Notice the use of the word excessive. I realize you arent the
brightest bulb in the closet, but you need to make a distinction
between greed and the healthy desire for prosperity.
"Excessive". Now that's a word subject to quantitative interpretation isn't
it? How much is too much?
Where does one draw the line between "healthy desire for prosperity" and
excessive "greed"? Who draws that line? Who sets the standard. Your
thinking is quite naive. So, there are laws to prevent "excessive" profit
making, such as anti-trust laws, SEC rules, competition laws, price
collusion, etc. Then you have laws to protect the freedom to do business
without government meddling, restraint of trade, deregulation, etc. . In
the end, it's a never ending court case.
They arent the same thing. The world does not run on the principal of
greed, and
your suggestion to the contrary probably says alot about you.
My professor of political science taught that there are two fundamental
motivating factors that have always governed the course of human history
throughout Civilization: The Greed Factor and the Fear Factor.
Feudalism, Mercantilism, Captitalism, Colonialism, Imperialism all have to
do with Greed and Fear. Greed for more control, more resources, more
territory. Fear of not having enough, the other guys having more, the other
guys getting stronger, etc. What applied to the Princes yesteryear apply
today to Corporate Princes. Jobs going to third world countries because
they work for dirt cheap wages without hindrance of labor laws. So you have
ten year old boys working in a shoe factory instead of going to school.
Why? To cut costs so YOU can buy cheap running shoes. Justification? If
Nike doesn't do it, Addidas will. If the U.S. doesn't do it, Germany will.
Enron stockholders, mostly employees who had worked their entire lives
to save up for retirement, were not greedy. I know you want them to
be so you can judge them, but they just werent. When you get the
chance to apply your mind-numbingly ignorant and severe measure to
yourself, you'll see what I mean.
What does Enron stockholders have anything to do with my argument? First of
all, Enron was theft of company funds. Yes, the ultimate of corporate
greed. It crossed the line from greed to crime. Who said anything about
Enron stockholders being greedy? Let me clarify one thing here as you seem
to mix up a macro concept with the micro. When I say the world runs on
Greed, that is a general statement about the engine that runs Capitalism.
That is on the Macro level. On the Micro level, of course, there are
individuals who are ruthless, selfish and extremely greedy. That can be
true in any system, captialism, communism or feudalism. Does that
individual affect the world economy? Is he the epitome of Capitalism? Of
course not.
You are making some fundamental logical fallacies.
Supply vs demand. Maximum return on investment. That is the essence of
Capitalism. I have news for you. The Middle Class are ALL evil.
And I have news for you. You arent God. You arent anyone's judge.
In fact, youre low on the human scale let alone compared to the
understanding necessary to accurately judge another. You are patently
incapable of determining whether or not another person is evil. The
one you call master plainly commanded you not to judge others, yet you
do so in nearly every post. Semantics cant and wont cover your
typical judgemental knee-jerk reaction. Time to take an honest look
at those shortcomings there, cesar notaprophet, instead of trying to
twist it to fit your delusions.
Excuse me but who is the one judging whom here? Whom have I judged? Give me
names??? So I am God because according to you, I am judging Mankind?
Well, in case you haven't read your bible, GOD is judging Mankind. This is
an Evil and Adulterous generation. Who am I to argue against that?
Judgement is coming to Mankind. That is not MY opinion about Mankind but
GOD's condemnation of it and who am I to argue against the Judgement that is
Coming to Mankind?
YOU, on the other hand are JUDGING me in this post and have been in EVERY
other post of mine and almost everyone eles's wherever there is the smallest
opportunity for you to JUDGE someone. Read your own posts. They're replete
with your JUDGMENT and criticisms of the posters.
I challenged you to dig up even ONE single post where I have said anything
anti-Semitic or hateful towards the Jews or Americans or even towards any
particular individual and you did not present evidence of your ACCUSATIONS.
Yet you go on and on making your false accusations based on logical
fallacies against individual people. You are the Master of the ad hominem.
This is not me making a judgment. Merely stating a fact.
cesar
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anon Ymous" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
22 Apr 2004 09:58:09 PM |
|
|
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message news:<r6Qhc.205462$2oI1.84305@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404212140.2b56cc22@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<n5Ehc.192100$2oI1.191238@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
Sarcasm means there is an element of truth in it. Stockholders are a
greedy
bunch. We want the stock prices to keep rising. We want a high
dividend.
The entire world operates on the principle of Greed. "What's in it for
me?"
Greed
1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth)
than one needs or deserves
Notice the use of the word excessive. I realize you arent the
brightest bulb in the closet, but you need to make a distinction
between greed and the healthy desire for prosperity.
"Excessive". Now that's a word subject to quantitative interpretation isn't
it? How much is too much?
Where does one draw the line between "healthy desire for prosperity" and
excessive "greed"? Who draws that line? Who sets the standard.
Not you.
Your
thinking is quite naive.
No it "quite" is not. Your thinking is quite idiotic and hypocritcal
as has been demonstrated over the last few days.
So, there are laws to prevent "excessive" profit
making, such as anti-trust laws, SEC rules, competition laws, price
collusion, etc. Then you
Not me. Your writing is quite adolescent.
have laws to protect the freedom to do business
without government meddling, restraint of trade, deregulation, etc. . In
the end, it's a never ending court case.
They arent the same thing. The world does not run on the principal of
greed, and
your suggestion to the contrary probably says alot about you.
My professor of political science taught that there are two fundamental
motivating factors that have always governed the course of human history
throughout Civilization: The Greed Factor and the Fear Factor.
Which motivates you?
QED
<snip erroneous conclusion based on poor assumption>
Enron stockholders, mostly employees who had worked their entire lives
to save up for retirement, were not greedy. I know you want them to
be so you can judge them, but they just werent. When you get the
chance to apply your mind-numbingly ignorant and severe measure to
yourself, you'll see what I mean.
What does Enron stockholders have anything to do with my argument?
Your argument claimed that stockholders were evil. Enron employees
were screwed out of their STOCK in the company by corporate GREED
(please, feel free to reference your dictionary as to the definition
of that word).
<snip idiotic explanation of yet another phenomenon about which cesar
knows nothing>
You are making some fundamental logical fallacies.
Not a single one. Good luck trying to identify one. Ill be happy to
make a fool out of you once again.
Supply vs demand. Maximum return on investment. That is the essence of
Capitalism. I have news for you. The Middle Class are ALL evil.
And I have news for you. You arent God. You arent anyone's judge.
In fact, youre low on the human scale let alone compared to the
understanding necessary to accurately judge another. You are patently
incapable of determining whether or not another person is evil. The
one you call master plainly commanded you not to judge others, yet you
do so in nearly every post. Semantics cant and wont cover your
typical judgemental knee-jerk reaction. Time to take an honest look
at those shortcomings there, cesar notaprophet, instead of trying to
twist it to fit your delusions.
Excuse me but who is the one judging whom here?
You are judging the stockholders of Enron and other little guys trying
to make it in the world as "greedy" (again, feel free to look up the
word in the dictionary, but this time dont try to cop out by hiding
behind the vagueness of excessive--I think you can figure at least
that much out for yourself)
Whom have I judged? Give me
names??? So I am God because according to you, I am judging Mankind?
Well no. I would never suggest that you are god.
Well, in case you haven't read your bible, GOD is judging Mankind.
Then why do you feel the need to do it almost every time you post?
This is
an Evil and Adulterous generation.
According to who? You or God? The Bible mentions nothing explicitly
about this generation.
Who am I to argue against that?
Judgement is coming to Mankind. That is not MY opinion about Mankind but
GOD's condemnation of it and who am I to argue against the Judgement that is
Coming to Mankind?
You do claim to follow Christ, dont you? Who are you to decide who is
evil, satanic, or otherwise associated with the Devil? But you make
those allegations all the time against people you dont even know.
YOU, on the other hand are JUDGING me in this post and have been in EVERY
other post of mine and almost everyone eles's wherever there is the smallest
opportunity for you to JUDGE someone. Read your own posts. They're replete
with your JUDGMENT and criticisms of the posters.
Ahhh, very interesting. You take my pointing out that you clearly
dont live up to standards set by one you call master as judgement.
Now youre even judging yourself. It's a start. Unlike you though, I
have a pretty good knowledge of the content of my posts. Youre the
one with the godawful memory. You wont find me calling anyone evil,
satanic or damned to hell. I leave the hypocrisy to you. I may point
out that a person is racist (grantland) or stupid (you), and I may
show that those ways of thinking are inaccurate, archaic or ego-based,
but I dont think those people are damned because of them. Im pretty
comfortable with my measure of humanity and myself and have spent a
lot of time considering the issue. You, on the other hand, indulge in
judgement and condemnation at every opportunity--even this one.
Also, I dont claim to adhere to any one belief system. Im appreciate
Christ's teachings, can understand them (something clearly beyond
you), but I dont preach on street corners or thump bibles. I dont
claim Christianity is better or worse than any other religion. So
please, dont try to apply standards of one you claim as master to me.
You think youre a Christian? Ok, try to live up to it. Try to follow
the example of mercy and charity instead of judgement and condemnation
that your MASTER showed the world.
I challenged you to dig up even ONE single post where I have said anything
anti-Semitic or hateful towards the Jews or Americans or even towards any
particular individual and you did not present evidence of your ACCUSATIONS.
Yet you go on and on making your false accusations based on logical
fallacies against individual people. You are the Master of the ad hominem.
This is not me making a judgment. Merely stating a fact.
Fact: Every time you posted something about Bush being satanic or
associated with Satan, you judged him and America. Fact: Every time
you posted something saying that the Jews follow the some other God
other than the one Jesus (the prophecied Jewish Messiah) followed, you
showed your anti semitism. I dont need to repost them. They are
there for all to see. But if you really want to see one post of yours
that is anti American...SCROLL UP!!! Check out the way you JUDGE
stockholders--plain as the nose on your face there bub, if you had the
eyes to see it. You hate America; you hate Jews; you hate society,
and you hate yourself and hope, even pray, that some horrible disaster
will come and end your mediocrity. Those are facts. Live in denial
if you want, but I know better. I havent made any accusations. Ive
merely stated hard facts all along. Your denial doesnt change that.
And although I appreciate the compliment concerning being the master,
it's simply inaccurate. If there's anything Im good at, it's
determining whether or not someone is full of *****. You're full of
*****. Ive just demonstrated as much above. This is not me making a
judgement. Merely stating FACT. Go pick your next name.
S~
.
|
|
|
| User: "cesar" |
|
| Title: Re: Vietnam,again |
24 Apr 2004 01:22:00 AM |
|
|
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404221858.6c86a643@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<r6Qhc.205462$2oI1.84305@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
"Anon Ymous" <shastaman@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5c2e70b2.0404212140.2b56cc22@posting.google.com...
"cesar" <cesar@no.email> wrote in message
news:<n5Ehc.192100$2oI1.191238@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
Sarcasm means there is an element of truth in it. Stockholders are
a
greedy
bunch. We want the stock prices to keep rising. We want a high
dividend.
The entire world operates on the principle of Greed. "What's in it
for
me?"
Greed
1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth)
than one needs or deserves
Notice the use of the word excessive. I realize you arent the
brightest bulb in the closet, but you need to make a distinction
between greed and the healthy desire for prosperity.
"Excessive". Now that's a word subject to quantitative interpretation
isn't
it? How much is too much?
Where does one draw the line between "healthy desire for prosperity" and
excessive "greed"? Who draws that line? Who sets the standard.
Not you.
Your
thinking is quite naive.
No it "quite" is not. Your thinking is quite idiotic and hypocritcal
as has been demonstrated over the last few days.
So, there are laws to prevent "excessive" profit
making, such as anti-trust laws, SEC rules, competition laws, price
collusion, etc. Then you
Not me. Your writing is quite adolescent.
have laws to protect the freedom to do business
without government meddling, restraint of trade, deregulation, etc. .
In
the end, it's a never ending court case.
They arent the same thing. The world does not run on the principal of
greed, and
your suggestion to the contrary probably says alot about you.
My professor of political science taught that there are two fundamental
motivating factors that have always governed the course of human history
throughout Civilization: The Greed Factor and the Fear Factor.
Which motivates you?
QED
<snip erroneous conclusion based on poor assumption>
Enron stockholders, mostly employees who had worked their entire lives
to save up for retirement, were not greedy. I know you want them to
be so you can judge them, but they just werent. When you get the
chance to apply your mind-numbingly ignorant and severe measure to
yourself, you'll see what I mean.
What does Enron stockholders have anything to do with my argument?
Your argument claimed that stockholders were evil. Enron employees
were screwed out of their STOCK in the company by corporate GREED
(please, feel free to reference your dictionary as to the definition
of that word).
<snip idiotic explanation of yet another phenomenon about which cesar
knows nothing>
You are making some fundamental logical fallacies.
Not a single one. Good luck trying to identify one. Ill be happy to
make a fool out of you once again.
Here's a few I've observed:
Ad hominem: an irrelevant attack on an individual's character that appeals
to prejudice or emotion
Calling me an anti-semite and a hater of America without submitting
evidence.
Questionable analogy: comparing things that are dissimil | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |