War launched to protect Israel



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Topic: Science > Prophecies-Of-Nostradamus
User: ""
Date: 22 May 2004 08:13:03 AM
Object: War launched to protect Israel
IRAQ:
War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser
Emad Mekay
Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States
but it did to Israel, which is one reason why Washington invaded the
Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level
White House intelligence group.
WASHINGTON, Mar 29 (IPS) - IPS uncovered the remarks by Philip
Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to
investigate the terrorist attacks on the United States in September
2001 -- the 9/11 commission -- in which he suggests a prime motive for
the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to
Israel, a staunch U.S. ally in the Middle East.
Zelikow's casting of the attack on Iraq as one launched to protect
Israel appears at odds with the public position of President George W.
Bush and his administration, which has never overtly drawn the link
between its war on the regime of former president Hussein and its
concern for Israel's security.
The administration has instead insisted it launched the war to
liberate the Iraqi people, destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction
(WMD) and to protect the United States.
Zelikow made his statements about ”the unstated threat” during his
tenure on a highly knowledgeable and well-connected body known as the
President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports
directly to the president.
He served on the board between 2001 and 2003.
”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll
tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since
1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the
University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of
foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of
the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.
”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the
Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you
frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on
it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow.
The statements are the first to surface from a source closely linked
to the Bush administration acknowledging that the war, which has so
far cost the lives of nearly 600 U.S. troops and thousands of Iraqis,
was motivated by Washington's desire to defend the Jewish state.
The administration, which is surrounded by staunch pro-Israel,
neo-conservative hawks, is currently fighting an extensive campaign to
ward off accusations that it derailed the ”war on terrorism” it
launched after 9/11 by taking a detour to Iraq, which appears to have
posed no direct threat to the United States.
Israel is Washington's biggest ally in the Middle East, receiving
annual direct aid of three to four billion dollars.
Even though members of the 16-person PFIAB come from outside
government, they enjoy the confidence of the president and have access
to all information related to foreign intelligence that they need to
play their vital advisory role.
Known in intelligence circles as ”Piffy-ab”, the board is supposed to
evaluate the nation's intelligence agencies and probe any mistakes
they make.
The unpaid appointees on the board require a security clearance known
as ”code word” that is higher than top secret.
The national security adviser to former President George H.W. Bush
(1989-93) Brent Scowcroft, currently chairs the board in its work
overseeing a number of intelligence bodies, including the Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA), the various military intelligence groups
and the Pentagon's National Reconnaissance Office.
Neither Scowcroft nor Zelikow returned numerous phone calls and email
messages from IPS for this story.
Zelikow has long-established ties to the Bush administration.
Before his appointment to PFIAB in October 2001, he was part of the
current president's transition team in January 2001.
In that capacity, Zelikow drafted a memo for National Security Adviser
Condoleezza Rice on reorganising and restructuring the National
Security Council (NSC) and prioritising its work.
Richard A. Clarke, who was counter-terrorism coordinator for Bush's
predecessor President Bill Clinton (1993-2001) also worked for Bush
senior, and has recently accused the current administration of not
heeding his terrorism warnings, said Zelikow was among those he
briefed about the urgent threat from al-Qaeda in December 2000.
Rice herself had served in the NSC during the first Bush
administration, and subsequently teamed up with Zelikow on a 1995 book
about the unification of Germany.
Zelikow had ties with another senior Bush administration official --
Robert Zoellick, the current trade representative. The two wrote three
books together, including one in 1998 on the United States and the
”Muslim Middle East”.
Aside from his position at the 9/11 commission, Zelikow is now also
director of the Miller Centre of Public Affairs and White Burkett
Miller Professor of History at the University of Virginia.
His close ties to the administration prompted accusations of a
conflict of interest in 2002 from families of victims of the 9/11
attacks, who protested his appointment to the investigative body.
In his university speech, Zelikow, who strongly backed attacking the
Iraqi dictator, also explained the threat to Israel by arguing that
Baghdad was preparing in 1990-91 to spend huge amounts of ”scarce hard
currency” to harness ”communications against electromagnetic pulse”, a
side-effect of a nuclear explosion that could sever radio, electronic
and electrical communications.
That was ”a perfectly absurd expenditure unless you were going to ride
out a nuclear exchange -- they (Iraqi officials) were not preparing to
ride out a nuclear exchange with us. Those were preparations to ride
out a nuclear exchange with the Israelis”, according to Zelikow.
He also suggested that the danger of biological weapons falling into
the hands of the anti-Israeli Islamic Resistance Movement, known by
its Arabic acronym Hamas, would threaten Israel rather than the United
States, and that those weapons could have been developed to the point
where they could deter Washington from attacking Hamas.
”Play out those scenarios,” he told his audience, ”and I will tell
you, people have thought about that, but they are just not talking
very much about it”.
”Don't look at the links between Iraq and al-Qaeda, but then ask
yourself the question, 'gee, is Iraq tied to Hamas and the Palestinian
Islamic Jihad and the people who are carrying out suicide bombings in
Israel'? Easy question to answer; the evidence is abundant.”
To date, the possibility of the United States attacking Iraq to
protect Israel has been only timidly raised by some intellectuals and
writers, with few public acknowledgements from sources close to the
administration.
Analysts who reviewed Zelikow's statements said they are concrete
evidence of one factor in the rationale for going to war, which has
been hushed up.
”Those of us speaking about it sort of routinely referred to the
protection of Israel as a component,” said Phyllis Bennis of the
Washington-based Institute of Policy Studies. ”But this is a very good
piece of evidence of that.”
Others say the administration should be blamed for not making known to
the public its true intentions and real motives for invading Iraq.
”They (the administration) made a decision to invade Iraq, and then
started to search for a policy to justify it. It was a decision in
search of a policy and because of the odd way they went about it,
people are trying to read something into it,” said Nathan Brown,
professor of political science at George Washington University and an
expert on the Middle East.
But he downplayed the Israel link. ”In terms of securing Israel, it
doesn't make sense to me because the Israelis are probably more
concerned about Iran than they were about Iraq in terms of the
long-term strategic threat,” he said.
Still, Brown says Zelikow's words carried weight.
”Certainly his position would allow him to speak with a little bit
more expertise about the thinking of the Bush administration, but it
doesn't strike me that he is any more authoritative than Wolfowitz, or
Rice or Powell or anybody else. All of them were sort of fishing about
for justification for a decision that has already been made,” Brown
said. (END/2004)
Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
.

User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 22 May 2004 02:04:57 PM
wrote in message news:<7ekua0dijdcp3r4a43g25i94mp8cpn5628@4ax.com>...

IRAQ:
War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser

Emad Mekay

Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States
but it did to Israel, which is one reason why Washington invaded the
Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level
White House intelligence group.

Propaganda.
I guess The Hitler-lefties need Israel gone right? Why? Well they
practice democracy and support the U.S. which was against Hitler.
Hummm. Sounds correct to me.


WASHINGTON, Mar 29 (IPS) - IPS uncovered the remarks by Philip
Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to
investigate the terrorist attacks on the United States in September
2001 -- the 9/11 commission -- in which he suggests a prime motive for
the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to
Israel, a staunch U.S. ally in the Middle East.

Zelikow's casting of the attack on Iraq as one launched to protect
Israel appears at odds with the public position of President George W.
Bush and his administration, which has never overtly drawn the link
between its war on the regime of former president Hussein and its
concern for Israel's security.

The administration has instead insisted it launched the war to
liberate the Iraqi people, destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction
(WMD) and to protect the United States.

Zelikow made his statements about ”the unstated threat” during his
tenure on a highly knowledgeable and well-connected body known as the
President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports
directly to the president.

He served on the board between 2001 and 2003.

”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll
tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since
1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the
University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of
foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of
the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.

”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the
Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you
frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on
it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow.

The statements are the first to surface from a source closely linked
to the Bush administration acknowledging that the war, which has so
far cost the lives of nearly 600 U.S. troops and thousands of Iraqis,
was motivated by Washington's desire to defend the Jewish state.

The administration, which is surrounded by staunch pro-Israel,
neo-conservative hawks, is currently fighting an extensive campaign to
ward off accusations that it derailed the ”war on terrorism” it
launched after 9/11 by taking a detour to Iraq, which appears to have
posed no direct threat to the United States.

Israel is Washington's biggest ally in the Middle East, receiving
annual direct aid of three to four billion dollars.

Even though members of the 16-person PFIAB come from outside
government, they enjoy the confidence of the president and have access
to all information related to foreign intelligence that they need to
play their vital advisory role.

Known in intelligence circles as ”Piffy-ab”, the board is supposed to
evaluate the nation's intelligence agencies and probe any mistakes
they make.

The unpaid appointees on the board require a security clearance known
as ”code word” that is higher than top secret.

The national security adviser to former President George H.W. Bush
(1989-93) Brent Scowcroft, currently chairs the board in its work
overseeing a number of intelligence bodies, including the Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA), the various military intelligence groups
and the Pentagon's National Reconnaissance Office.

Neither Scowcroft nor Zelikow returned numerous phone calls and email
messages from IPS for this story.

Zelikow has long-established ties to the Bush administration.

Before his appointment to PFIAB in October 2001, he was part of the
current president's transition team in January 2001.

In that capacity, Zelikow drafted a memo for National Security Adviser
Condoleezza Rice on reorganising and restructuring the National
Security Council (NSC) and prioritising its work.

Richard A. Clarke, who was counter-terrorism coordinator for Bush's
predecessor President Bill Clinton (1993-2001) also worked for Bush
senior, and has recently accused the current administration of not
heeding his terrorism warnings, said Zelikow was among those he
briefed about the urgent threat from al-Qaeda in December 2000.

Rice herself had served in the NSC during the first Bush
administration, and subsequently teamed up with Zelikow on a 1995 book
about the unification of Germany.

Zelikow had ties with another senior Bush administration official --
Robert Zoellick, the current trade representative. The two wrote three
books together, including one in 1998 on the United States and the
”Muslim Middle East”.

Aside from his position at the 9/11 commission, Zelikow is now also
director of the Miller Centre of Public Affairs and White Burkett
Miller Professor of History at the University of Virginia.

His close ties to the administration prompted accusations of a
conflict of interest in 2002 from families of victims of the 9/11
attacks, who protested his appointment to the investigative body.

In his university speech, Zelikow, who strongly backed attacking the
Iraqi dictator, also explained the threat to Israel by arguing that
Baghdad was preparing in 1990-91 to spend huge amounts of ”scarce hard
currency” to harness ”communications against electromagnetic pulse”, a
side-effect of a nuclear explosion that could sever radio, electronic
and electrical communications.

That was ”a perfectly absurd expenditure unless you were going to ride
out a nuclear exchange -- they (Iraqi officials) were not preparing to
ride out a nuclear exchange with us. Those were preparations to ride
out a nuclear exchange with the Israelis”, according to Zelikow.

He also suggested that the danger of biological weapons falling into
the hands of the anti-Israeli Islamic Resistance Movement, known by
its Arabic acronym Hamas, would threaten Israel rather than the United
States, and that those weapons could have been developed to the point
where they could deter Washington from attacking Hamas.

”Play out those scenarios,” he told his audience, ”and I will tell
you, people have thought about that, but they are just not talking
very much about it”.

”Don't look at the links between Iraq and al-Qaeda, but then ask
yourself the question, 'gee, is Iraq tied to Hamas and the Palestinian
Islamic Jihad and the people who are carrying out suicide bombings in
Israel'? Easy question to answer; the evidence is abundant.”

To date, the possibility of the United States attacking Iraq to
protect Israel has been only timidly raised by some intellectuals and
writers, with few public acknowledgements from sources close to the
administration.

Analysts who reviewed Zelikow's statements said they are concrete
evidence of one factor in the rationale for going to war, which has
been hushed up.

”Those of us speaking about it sort of routinely referred to the
protection of Israel as a component,” said Phyllis Bennis of the
Washington-based Institute of Policy Studies. ”But this is a very good
piece of evidence of that.”

Others say the administration should be blamed for not making known to
the public its true intentions and real motives for invading Iraq.

”They (the administration) made a decision to invade Iraq, and then
started to search for a policy to justify it. It was a decision in
search of a policy and because of the odd way they went about it,
people are trying to read something into it,” said Nathan Brown,
professor of political science at George Washington University and an
expert on the Middle East.

But he downplayed the Israel link. ”In terms of securing Israel, it
doesn't make sense to me because the Israelis are probably more
concerned about Iran than they were about Iraq in terms of the
long-term strategic threat,” he said.

Still, Brown says Zelikow's words carried weight.

”Certainly his position would allow him to speak with a little bit
more expertise about the thinking of the Bush administration, but it
doesn't strike me that he is any more authoritative than Wolfowitz, or
Rice or Powell or anybody else. All of them were sort of fishing about
for justification for a decision that has already been made,” Brown
said. (END/2004)



Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States

.
User: "bollogs"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 23 May 2004 04:18:22 AM
(Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote in message news:<dd3256f0.0405221104.6aa9bfd9@posting.google.com>...

Zak@home.com wrote in message news:<7ekua0dijdcp3r4a43g25i94mp8cpn5628@4ax.com>...

IRAQ:
War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser

Emad Mekay

Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States
but it did to Israel, which is one reason why Washington invaded the
Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level
White House intelligence group.


Propaganda.

I guess The Hitler-lefties need Israel gone right? Why? Well they
practice democracy and support the U.S. which was against Hitler.
Hummm. Sounds correct to me.

Apartheid is not democracy by a long shot child!
WH
.


User: "TonyZ2001"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 22 May 2004 09:18:15 AM
Yes, you posted this weeks ago.
So what? Israel is our friend and one of our top allies, if we attacked Iraq to
protect them, then it was a good thing.
Tony
.
User: "Hoppy"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 23 May 2004 06:27:24 AM
TonyZ2001 wrote:

Yes, you posted this weeks ago.

So what? Israel is our friend and one of our top allies, if we attacked Iraq to
protect them, then it was a good thing.

Tony

you americans are thick, israel is not your friend, they are using you.
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 25 May 2004 11:47:39 AM
Hoppy <hoppy-the-happy-hippo@the-jungle.com> Spat the Words

TonyZ2001 wrote:

Yes, you posted this weeks ago.

So what? Israel is our friend and one of our top allies, if we
attacked Iraq to protect them, then it was a good thing.

Tony

you americans are thick, israel is not your friend, they are using
you.

Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.
.
User: "Grantland"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 25 May 2004 11:55:10 AM
"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Hoppy <hoppy-the-happy-hippo@the-jungle.com> Spat the Words

TonyZ2001 wrote:

Yes, you posted this weeks ago.

So what? Israel is our friend and one of our top allies, if we
attacked Iraq to protect them, then it was a good thing.

Tony

you americans are thick, israel is not your friend, they are using
you.



Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.

Stupid fool. Moron.
Grantland
.

User: "Cuan"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 26 May 2004 01:18:59 AM
On Tue, 25 May 2004 16:47:39 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Hoppy <hoppy-the-happy-hippo@the-jungle.com> Spat the Words

TonyZ2001 wrote:

Yes, you posted this weeks ago.

So what? Israel is our friend and one of our top allies, if we
attacked Iraq to protect them, then it was a good thing.

Tony

you americans are thick, israel is not your friend, they are using
you.



Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.

you call that a democracy? or even a *stable* democracy? You have no
idea what kind of friends you need.
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 27 May 2004 08:37:25 AM
Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words


Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.


you call that a democracy? or even a *stable* democracy? You have no
idea what kind of friends you need.

Well we certainly won't be making friends with Hamas. They don't
do anything except send their youngsters into Israeli population
areas with bombs strapped around their back. Oh, they also try
to avoid the missiles Israel throws at them (and they're not
very successful at avoiding these).
.
User: "Cuan"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 28 May 2004 06:10:08 AM
On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:37:25 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words


Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.


you call that a democracy? or even a *stable* democracy? You have no
idea what kind of friends you need.



Well we certainly won't be making friends with Hamas. They don't
do anything except send their youngsters into Israeli population
areas with bombs strapped around their back. Oh, they also try
to avoid the missiles Israel throws at them (and they're not
very successful at avoiding these).

yes yes yes...so we've seen on the news.
I'm afraid there's no real solution to this cragmire. Either Israel
withdraws their settlements in previously Palestinian land (which they
won't because they're greedy) or suffer the uncertainty that they
might be blown to smithereens by some zealot on the sidewalk. Either
the Palestinians stop blowing civilians away on the sidewalk (which
they wont, due to the first point above) or they suffer the
uncertainty of being blown to smithereens by a hellfire missile from
an Apache gunship. Somebody has to compromise somewhere - and I doubt
Israel realises that it has to be them.
It's really too bad that these two populations cannot see eye-to-eye
all throughout their history.
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 29 May 2004 12:40:27 PM
Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:37:25 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words


Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.


you call that a democracy? or even a *stable* democracy? You have

no

idea what kind of friends you need.



Well we certainly won't be making friends with Hamas. They don't
do anything except send their youngsters into Israeli population
areas with bombs strapped around their back. Oh, they also try
to avoid the missiles Israel throws at them (and they're not
very successful at avoiding these).


yes yes yes...so we've seen on the news.

I'm afraid there's no real solution to this cragmire. Either Israel
withdraws their settlements in previously Palestinian land (which they
won't because they're greedy) or suffer the uncertainty that they
might be blown to smithereens by some zealot on the sidewalk. Either
the Palestinians stop blowing civilians away on the sidewalk (which
they wont, due to the first point above) or they suffer the
uncertainty of being blown to smithereens by a hellfire missile from
an Apache gunship. Somebody has to compromise somewhere - and I doubt
Israel realises that it has to be them.

It's really too bad that these two populations cannot see eye-to-eye
all throughout their history.

I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?
The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under
control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).
.
User: "Grantland"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 29 May 2004 04:07:21 PM
"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:37:25 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words


Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.


you call that a democracy? or even a *stable* democracy? You have

no

idea what kind of friends you need.



Well we certainly won't be making friends with Hamas. They don't
do anything except send their youngsters into Israeli population
areas with bombs strapped around their back. Oh, they also try
to avoid the missiles Israel throws at them (and they're not
very successful at avoiding these).


yes yes yes...so we've seen on the news.

I'm afraid there's no real solution to this cragmire. Either Israel
withdraws their settlements in previously Palestinian land (which they
won't because they're greedy) or suffer the uncertainty that they
might be blown to smithereens by some zealot on the sidewalk. Either
the Palestinians stop blowing civilians away on the sidewalk (which
they wont, due to the first point above) or they suffer the
uncertainty of being blown to smithereens by a hellfire missile from
an Apache gunship. Somebody has to compromise somewhere - and I doubt
Israel realises that it has to be them.

It's really too bad that these two populations cannot see eye-to-eye
all throughout their history.


I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?
The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under
control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).

STUPID FUCKING MORON! GROW A BRAIN!
Grantland
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 30 May 2004 10:03:48 PM
(Grantland) Spat the Words

"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:37:25 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words


Israel is a stable democracy, which are the kind of friends we
need.


you call that a democracy? or even a *stable* democracy? You have

no

idea what kind of friends you need.



Well we certainly won't be making friends with Hamas. They don't
do anything except send their youngsters into Israeli population
areas with bombs strapped around their back. Oh, they also try
to avoid the missiles Israel throws at them (and they're not
very successful at avoiding these).


yes yes yes...so we've seen on the news.

I'm afraid there's no real solution to this cragmire. Either Israel
withdraws their settlements in previously Palestinian land (which

they

won't because they're greedy) or suffer the uncertainty that they
might be blown to smithereens by some zealot on the sidewalk. Either
the Palestinians stop blowing civilians away on the sidewalk (which
they wont, due to the first point above) or they suffer the
uncertainty of being blown to smithereens by a hellfire missile from
an Apache gunship. Somebody has to compromise somewhere - and I

doubt

Israel realises that it has to be them.

It's really too bad that these two populations cannot see eye-to-eye
all throughout their history.


I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?
The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under
control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).

STUPID FUCKING MORON! GROW A BRAIN!

Gruntland the racist speaks. Still angry all your slaves in
south africa took over the gov't there?


Grantland

.
User: "Cuan"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 31 May 2004 03:55:56 AM
On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:03:48 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

mithril@iafrica.com (Grantland) Spat the Words

"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?
The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under
control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).

STUPID FUCKING MORON! GROW A BRAIN!


Gruntland the racist speaks. Still angry all your slaves in
south africa took over the gov't there?

Actually, we have no idea what having slaves is like. I believe the
US has first-hand experience, though. Linch mobs and the like are
foreign subjects to us. I believe the US has first-hand experience,
though. Aren't you glad your "slaves" in the US didn't take over your
government over there? I somehow doubt your 'negroes' would feel
sympathetic to caucasians living in a 'negro' USA.
Carefull of that pot calling the kettle black analogy - seems to
happen quite frequently in the north.
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 31 May 2004 05:38:39 PM
Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:03:48 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

mithril@iafrica.com (Grantland) Spat the Words

"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?
The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under
control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).

STUPID FUCKING MORON! GROW A BRAIN!


Gruntland the racist speaks. Still angry all your slaves in
south africa took over the gov't there?


Actually, we have no idea what having slaves is like. I believe the
US has first-hand experience, though.

I know. South Africa wasn't really slavery as such, more just
control by a minority white population over a huge majority
black population, sort of economic slavery.

Linch mobs and the like are
foreign subjects to us. I believe the US has first-hand experience,
though. Aren't you glad your "slaves" in the US didn't take over your
government over there?

I am glad. I like our gov't just the way it is, based on the
principles laid out by our founders.

I somehow doubt your 'negroes' would feel
sympathetic to caucasians living in a 'negro' USA.

Carefull of that pot calling the kettle black analogy - seems to
happen quite frequently in the north.

We freed our slaves 150 years ago... and we fought a civil war
because of slavery which killed 1/2 Million Americans. (actually,
that war got started because the south was trying to remove itself
from the Union, but the slavery issue was a big part of it).


.




User: "Cuan"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 31 May 2004 03:45:22 AM
On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:40:27 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?

You think that what I've written equates to a strong sentiment for the
Palestinians? I suppose you also feel I have a strong sentiment for
the Iraqi's too? And the Arabs and Moslems? I have a strong
sentiment for what is right and what is wrong. I'm glad to see that
you recognise the Palestinians as being the 'underdogs' in this
conflict. We're one step closer to helping you understand the concept
of injustice.

The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under

Israel has lost that reputation. Perhaps you should follow the news.

control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).

And the "great wall" of Israel? That which is rubber-stamping the
border that Israel claims is theirs. There can now be no doubt that
negotiations cannot proceed any further. And regarding demolishing of
homes, can you understand the trauma a child can go through while
watching their homes being demolished? It's probably far greater than
the trauma of any child watching people jumping from the windows of
the WTC. Then there's the Israeli assassinations of head figures of
opposition groups (which is what they essentially are), killing
bystanders and maiming children in the process.
You may ask about the suicide bombers doing the same...well, let me
see. In South Africa, the ANC, during their 'struggle for freedom',
employed the use of limput mines and other forms of time-delayed
explosives which they strategically planted in shopping centers,
schools and train stations (etc.) for the maximum effect. No outside
country ever condemned the loss of innocent lives caused by such
indiscrimate bombings of civillians going about their daily lives. As
school children, we had 3D identification posters stuck to walls to
help us identify these Russian-made explosives in the event that we
came accross any during the course of our lives. Some government
departments still have these posters on their walls today to serve as
a grim reminder of the finity of life. To add insult to injury, the
ANC were given offices in the US and UK to better coordinate their
'terrorist' activities. Ironic, isn't it? Even more so, since the
ANC were fighting for a communist cause with communist weaponry at a
time when the US's "cold war" was running in full-steam.
In the case of the Palestinians, they're actually including themselves
in the carnage, which should get them more sympathy than simply
planting bombs in crowded areas and running away to watch the damages
from the safety of their homes. Why then, is their cause treated as
'terrorism' when the ANC were simply 'freedom fighters'? Was it
because "all" caucasians in SA were racists, and therefore the scourge
of the planet? Like the "moslems" allegedly demolished the WTC, so
now *they're* the scourge of the planet? Funny how prejudiced people
can be when they fear for their lives.
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 31 May 2004 05:29:35 PM
Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:40:27 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

I'll agree with that last statement. You seem to have some strong
sentiment for the Palestinians... I'm curious about that. Is it just
rooting for the underdog or is there something else more personal?


You think that what I've written equates to a strong sentiment for the
Palestinians?

I don't know, that's why I asked.

I suppose you also feel I have a strong sentiment for
the Iraqi's too? And the Arabs and Moslems? I have a strong
sentiment for what is right and what is wrong. I'm glad to see that
you recognise the Palestinians as being the 'underdogs' in this
conflict. We're one step closer to helping you understand the concept
of injustice.


The Pales have had and will have again the opportunity for self-
determination. I think they're fortunate the controlling power
in the area is a gov't like Israel which is a respecter of human
rights and dignities. It could be much worse for the Pales under


Israel has lost that reputation. Perhaps you should follow the news.


control of certain other gov'ts... really, it's not as if they're
being rounded up and exterminated. The houses being demolished are
being used for terrorist activities (like building tunnels for
smuggling in weapons from Egypt).


And the "great wall" of Israel? That which is rubber-stamping the
border that Israel claims is theirs. There can now be no doubt that
negotiations cannot proceed any further. And regarding demolishing of
homes, can you understand the trauma a child can go through while
watching their homes being demolished? It's probably far greater than
the trauma of any child watching people jumping from the windows of
the WTC. Then there's the Israeli assassinations of head figures of
opposition groups (which is what they essentially are), killing
bystanders and maiming children in the process.

You may ask about the suicide bombers doing the same...well, let me
see. In South Africa, the ANC, during their 'struggle for freedom',
employed the use of limput mines and other forms of time-delayed
explosives which they strategically planted in shopping centers,
schools and train stations (etc.) for the maximum effect. No outside
country ever condemned the loss of innocent lives caused by such
indiscrimate bombings of civillians going about their daily lives. As
school children, we had 3D identification posters stuck to walls to
help us identify these Russian-made explosives in the event that we
came accross any during the course of our lives. Some government
departments still have these posters on their walls today to serve as
a grim reminder of the finity of life. To add insult to injury, the
ANC were given offices in the US and UK to better coordinate their
'terrorist' activities. Ironic, isn't it? Even more so, since the
ANC were fighting for a communist cause with communist weaponry at a
time when the US's "cold war" was running in full-steam.

In the case of the Palestinians, they're actually including themselves
in the carnage, which should get them more sympathy than simply
planting bombs in crowded areas and running away to watch the damages
from the safety of their homes. Why then, is their cause treated as
'terrorism' when the ANC were simply 'freedom fighters'?

I don't know anything about the ANC struggle. I do know that after
the 1948 re-creation of Israel, they were beset by every Arab nation
in the whole region attempting to wipe out the Israelis. Even today
the charter of Hamas is the complete elimination of Israel. Hamas
doesn't represent the Palestinian people any more than the PLO does.
The Palestinian people go basically unrepresented and this is, in
my opinion, the real problem - they have no representative body,
all they have are these quasi-terrorist groups in their midst which
prey on their youths.

Was it
because "all" caucasians in SA were racists, and therefore the scourge
of the planet? Like the "moslems" allegedly demolished the WTC, so
now *they're* the scourge of the planet? Funny how prejudiced people
can be when they fear for their lives.

.
User: "Grantland"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 31 May 2004 06:38:13 PM
"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

I don't know nothing about the ANC struggle. I do know that after
the 1948 re-creation of Israel, they were beset by every Arab nation
in the whole region attempting to wipe out the Israelis. Even today
the charter of Hamas is the complete elimination of Israel. Hamas
doesn't represent the Palestinian people any more than the PLO does.
The Palestinian people go basically unrepresented and this is, in
my opinion, the real problem - they have no representative body,
all they have are these quasi-terrorist groups in their midst which
prey on their youths.

FUCKING MORON! GROW A BRAIN!
Grantland
.
User: "Tadapope"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 31 May 2004 07:55:11 PM
Did they launch it on themselves?
.


User: "Cuan"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 01 Jun 2004 04:27:50 AM
On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:29:35 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

In the case of the Palestinians, they're actually including themselves
in the carnage, which should get them more sympathy than simply
planting bombs in crowded areas and running away to watch the damages
from the safety of their homes. Why then, is their cause treated as
'terrorism' when the ANC were simply 'freedom fighters'?


I don't know anything about the ANC struggle. I do know that after
the 1948 re-creation of Israel, they were beset by every Arab nation
in the whole region attempting to wipe out the Israelis. Even today

this is most likely due to the Jewish people being given the Holy city
of Jerusalem (and surrounds) by the British. The occupants of the
land at the time were the Palestinians. You realise that the Moslems
used to face Jerusalem at one point during their Friday prayers? It
is now their second holiest city, and it's not under their control. I
guess the Jewish people felt the same way in the times of Roman
occupation. Nevertheless, it only takes a small amount of
understanding of the points of view of all concerned to be able to see
where this conflict comes from and where it is going.

the charter of Hamas is the complete elimination of Israel. Hamas
doesn't represent the Palestinian people any more than the PLO does.

Hamas has an Islamic agenda. The PLO were the equivalent to Israel as
what the ANC was to South Africa.

The Palestinian people go basically unrepresented and this is, in
my opinion, the real problem - they have no representative body,
all they have are these quasi-terrorist groups in their midst which
prey on their youths.

The PLO did represent the Palestinians, however, the legitamacy of the
PLO/PA was undermined by the leadership of Israel to such an extent
that they became powerless even to negotiate. The so-called
'quasi-terrorist' groups have used the Palestinian debacle as an
example of the bigger picture. They now cite the Jews as being
anti-Islamic, as opposed to anti-Palestinian, and recognise the US as
being a Christian endorsement of what the Jews are doing. Two against
one, so to speak. The poor Palestinian on the street would like to
have a sovereign state (just like the Jews wanted) and not feel
displaced, but they've been sold into the fight against the Jew as
being a religious one. Israel created that vacuum which allowed Hamas
and Islamic Jihad to get their footing. As you know, if you ever want
extremists, look towards the youth, as none can be more passionate
about something as them. The ANC knew that too.
.
User: "R. Foreman"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 05 Jun 2004 07:24:46 PM
Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:29:35 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

Cuan <an@nymous.co.za> Spat the Words

In the case of the Palestinians, they're actually including

themselves

in the carnage, which should get them more sympathy than simply
planting bombs in crowded areas and running away to watch the damages
from the safety of their homes. Why then, is their cause treated as
'terrorism' when the ANC were simply 'freedom fighters'?


I don't know anything about the ANC struggle. I do know that after
the 1948 re-creation of Israel, they were beset by every Arab nation
in the whole region attempting to wipe out the Israelis. Even today


this is most likely due to the Jewish people being given the Holy city
of Jerusalem (and surrounds) by the British. The occupants of the
land at the time were the Palestinians. You realise that the Moslems
used to face Jerusalem at one point during their Friday prayers? It
is now their second holiest city, and it's not under their control. I
guess the Jewish people felt the same way in the times of Roman
occupation.

The difference of course, is the Romans weren't trying to make
Palestine their homeland. The Israelis are trying to settle
that area and make it their homeland, and I'm sure we could
argue ad nauseum who has original right to that land. The
Israelis claim goes back some 6 or 7 thousand years, and I'm
sure the Palestinians believe their claim goes way back also.

Nevertheless, it only takes a small amount of
understanding of the points of view of all concerned to be able to see
where this conflict comes from and where it is going.


the charter of Hamas is the complete elimination of Israel. Hamas
doesn't represent the Palestinian people any more than the PLO does.


Hamas has an Islamic agenda. The PLO were the equivalent to Israel as
what the ANC was to South Africa.


The Palestinian people go basically unrepresented and this is, in
my opinion, the real problem - they have no representative body,
all they have are these quasi-terrorist groups in their midst which
prey on their youths.


The PLO did represent the Palestinians, however, the legitamacy of the
PLO/PA was undermined by the leadership of Israel to such an extent
that they became powerless even to negotiate. The so-called
'quasi-terrorist' groups have used the Palestinian debacle as an
example of the bigger picture. They now cite the Jews as being
anti-Islamic, as opposed to anti-Palestinian, and recognise the US as
being a Christian endorsement of what the Jews are doing. Two against
one, so to speak. The poor Palestinian on the street would like to
have a sovereign state (just like the Jews wanted) and not feel
displaced,

I'll bet they would. As I recall they were given this opportunity
with PM Barak in 1999 (or thereabouts) with Arafat and Clinton at
Camp David, but Arafat rejected it. People said it was a sweet
deal for the Palestinians. Speculation was that Arafat feared
he would be killed by his own hard-liners for making such a deal.

but they've been sold into the fight against the Jew as
being a religious one.

Another good argument for separation of church and state. The
two never mix very well.

Israel created that vacuum which allowed Hamas
and Islamic Jihad to get their footing. As you know, if you ever want
extremists, look towards the youth, as none can be more passionate
about something as them. The ANC knew that too.

Yeah, the youth seem to be passionate about nothing at all most
of the time. That's probably why they get drafted into a cause
so easily.



.
User: "Cuan"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 07 Jun 2004 06:23:48 AM
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:24:46 GMT, "R. Foreman"
<eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote:

The difference of course, is the Romans weren't trying to make
Palestine their homeland. The Israelis are trying to settle
that area and make it their homeland, and I'm sure we could
argue ad nauseum who has original right to that land. The
Israelis claim goes back some 6 or 7 thousand years, and I'm
sure the Palestinians believe their claim goes way back also.

Both claims go back as far as each other. If, however, you took the
flight from Egypt as being the beginning of the Israelite claim to the
land, then they would have the shorter claim. The Israelites and the
"Palestinians" came from the same lineage. The one line left the
Canaan during the famine to go to Egypt and the other remained. The
Israelites were out of Canaan for a long time. This might account for
the loss of their memory of the Israelite's original presence there.

I'll bet they would. As I recall they were given this opportunity
with PM Barak in 1999 (or thereabouts) with Arafat and Clinton at
Camp David, but Arafat rejected it. People said it was a sweet
deal for the Palestinians. Speculation was that Arafat feared
he would be killed by his own hard-liners for making such a deal.

I recall that too. Neither side wants to be a "sell-out",
unfortunately. This is where they're at right now. Who will be the
first to sell-out. Unfortunately there won't be peace there until
someone "sells out".

but they've been sold into the fight against the Jew as
being a religious one.


Another good argument for separation of church and state. The
two never mix very well.

Unfortunately, this is how it has progressed and escalated.

Israel created that vacuum which allowed Hamas
and Islamic Jihad to get their footing. As you know, if you ever want
extremists, look towards the youth, as none can be more passionate
about something as them. The ANC knew that too.


Yeah, the youth seem to be passionate about nothing at all most
of the time. That's probably why they get drafted into a cause
so easily.

true.
.











User: "gump"

Title: Re: War launched to protect Israel 22 May 2004 09:40:25 PM
Your sentiment is the politically correct one, so I understand why you say
it was a good thing, but I personally disagree. Israel has massive
influence on our government and media; even if there were no conspiracy
thinkers, it's still dangerous. We have been paying Israel reparations of
billions (yes billions) a year of taxpayer money. Now we did not support
Nazi Germany and Israel is very far from a poor country, so why are we
paying them again when we are broke? It's because it's political suicide to
stand against them and our politicians know it. Think what you will but ask
any Jew where there loyalty lies and they will openly say to Israel first.
As a parent you would protect your child before someone elses as stands to
reason, and Jews will use whatever means available to foster Israel and
Jewish dominance, with no care about your loss of life or liberty.
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040522101815.17668.00000883@mb-m15.aol.com...

Yes, you posted this weeks ago.

So what? Israel is our friend and one of our top allies, if we attacked

Iraq to

protect them, then it was a good thing.

Tony

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