Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile?
Geopolitical expert Jack Wheeler describes disturbing security stare down
Posted: November 27, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Dr. Jack Wheeler, creator of a unique intelligence website dubbed "the oasis
for rational conservatives," features a column describing what could have
turned into a deadly scenario in Chile for President Bush.
On his website, To the Point, Wheeler tells a little-known story about a
conflict between Bush's security detail and Chile's security over the latter's
refusal to have a metal-detector at a state dinner for the president. There is
speculation, Wheeler points out, that Bush-loathing Venezuelan President Hugo
Chavez, a chum of Fidel Castro, is somehow connected to the incident.
Wheeler explains that Chilean officials attempted to block Secret Service agent
Nick Trotta from protecting the president.
Writes Wheeler: "The attempt was a clear double-cross, because all security
arrangements are made and agreed upon for the POTUS (President of the United
States) between the Secret Service and host country security well in advance
and etched in stone. The Chilean police knew and agreed that Trotta would be
with the president, yet they blocked him in a complete surprise.
"Far worse than this was Chilean President Lagos' refusal to have guests at a
State Dinner go through a metal detector. No one attends a function with the
POTUS, either here in the U.S. or anywhere in the world, without going through
a metal detector, and this was agreed to way beforehand in Santiago. At the
last moment, Lagos refuses – then cancels the dinner when the Secret Service
won’t budge."
Available only to subscribers of To the Point, Wheeler's piece, entitled
"Chavez in Chile," goes on to explain the connection to Chavez.
"Ricardo Lagos is a left-wing anti-American socialist whose hero is Salvador
Allende, who almost turned Chile over to the Soviets, and a great friend of
Hugo Chavez," Wheeler writes. "Was there a plan to slip a firearm into this
dinner in Santiago and assassinate GW? No one in Washington is sure – but
there is a very frightened and angry buzz of worry that there might have been."
Subscribe to Wheeler's To the Point intelligence website and read the entire
article.
Prime-time intelligence analysis
Besides writing for To the Point, Wheeler heads the Freedom Research
Foundation, which currently is working on what he calls the Free Iran Project.
The project applies "Reagan Doctrine strategies toward the liberation of Iran,"
he explained.
The website is global, Wheeler says, "but we really focus on issues people are
really interested in … key areas of geo-strategic and national security
import for the United States."
'Religion without a future'
Wheeler said Islam is also a focus of To the Point, including "the nature of
Islam and the problems Islam faces – with regard to us and with regard to its
own future."
"Quite frankly," he said, "there are a lot of extinct religions in the history
pages, and Islam is going to become extinct unless it's reformed.
"When you start blowing yourself up, when you get that kind of insane
desperation, you're history," he said. "This is a religion without a future
unless it reforms."
On his site, Wheeler includes a subscription article comparing the Aztecs with
Arabs: "Both the Arabs and the Aztecs invented a religion of jihad as a
rationale to justify their imperialist empires. …"
"War – Holy War – became the purpose of the Aztec state. All soldiers in
the Aztec army were holy warriors, warriors of the gods. Peace was dangerous.
No war meant no prisoners to sacrifice, no food for the gods, which risked the
destruction of mankind and the universe itself. The only way to avoid cosmic
disaster was for the Aztecs to accept the burden fate had given them and wage
perpetual war for the salvation of humanity.
"All in all, a pretty clever rationalization for a monstrous imperialist
tyranny, wouldn't you say? Sounds like they were taking religion-inventing
lessons from the Arabs."
Adventure in his blood
Wheeler, who holds a doctorate in Philosophy, has always been drawn by the
thrill and accomplishment of adventure. He became the youngest Eagle Scout in
history at age 12 before becoming the youngest person to climb the Matterhorn
in Switzerland at age 14.
"People collect things," Wheeler explains. "They collect stamps, or coins, or
porcelain. At 14, I decided what I wanted was to collect extraordinary
experiences. You could lose your stamps or coins, but you can never lose what
you have done with your life."
Wheeler swam the Hellespont like Leander in Greek mythology, was adopted into a
tribe of Amazon headhunters and successfully hunted a man-eating tiger in South
Vietnam while still in high school.
"My intellectual adventures began when I read Ayn Rand, Ludwig von Mises and
Aristotle, inspiring me to get a Ph.D. in Philosophy," he said. "I explored
Africa, the Gobi, Mongolia, Central Asia, Tibet, the Himalayas, the Andes,
Borneo and the South Pacific, discovered lost tribes in New Guinea and the
Kalahari, took elephants over the Alps in Hannibal's footsteps, skydived onto
the North Pole, roused anti-Marxist guerrillas from Angola to Afghanistan and
helped get rid of the Soviet Union."
Forty years after Wheeler's historic climb of the Matterhorn, he ascended the
mountain again, this time with his 14-year-old eldest son, Brandon.
Wheeler completes his column entitled "What life is all about" this way:
"No lion, sitting underneath an acacia tree in the Serengeti, asks himself,
'What does it mean to be a lion? What is the purpose of my existence?' A lion
has no choice but to unselfconsciously follow his genetic program. But human
beings have to figure out how and why to survive, they have to choose a
rationale that gives purpose and meaning for their lives. My choice has been to
try and make my life, and now the life of my son, a thrilling adventure."
Wheeler has worn many labels throughout his decades as an adventurer and
geopolitical expert. The Wall Street Journal called him "the originator of the
Reagan Doctrine." The Washington Post called him "The Indiana Jones of the
Right," and Izvestiya, the organ of the Soviet Communist Party, called him an
"ideological gangster."
Wheeler says his site offers readers "mind-stretching pro-America insights on
our lives, our politics and our world."
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., sums up Wheeler's extraordinary life:
"Jack Wheeler is just about the most interesting man I know. As a professional
adventurer, he has discovered lost tribes and led expeditions to every corner
of the globe. As a geopolitical strategist, he created the Reagan Doctrine,
which led to the demise of the Soviet Union. He is a brilliantly original
thinker and deeply perceptive analyst of world events. I value his counsel and
friendship."
Here's how Wheeler describes his online resource:
"To The Point intends to be both the world's most accurate and insightful
geopolitical intelligence service, and a pro-America, pro-capitalist,
pro-Western Civilization intellectual ammunition service for defenders of
liberty.
"Our goal is for our subscribers to look upon To The Point as an oasis of
reason and insight. Our subscribers are becoming the most highly informed
people in America."
.
|
|
| User: "Daniel Joseph Min" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
16 Dec 2004 09:09:30 PM |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
America RULES the free world, and our gloatingly-victorious
Republican party RULES America. Welcome to the 21st century!
Some fence-riding frenchman "jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr" pined in vain:
<snipped wankage, oh my, how France longs for the "good old days">
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
--William of Ockham (~1300-1349)
Merry Christmas! Noel! Praise Jesus!
Daniel Joseph Min
http://www.google.co.in./groups?selm=XJBDEJF138262.9022453704@anonymous.poster
http://www.google.co.uk./groups?selm=XJBDEJF138262.9022453704@anonymous.poster
http://www.geocities.com/daniel_joseph_min
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2B1CCFE7
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQA/AwUBQcJLWJljD7YrHM/nEQLEAgCgyBXpo3vhPFQzt8yWaHoiKeAlY74AoLL2
VJTnWghg9UtmnyNUqtEeCef8
=xJbw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
.
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| User: "Daniel Joseph Min" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
27 Nov 2004 03:23:47 PM |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Jesus! WHAT ON EARTH was President Bush doing in the company
of a known *enemy* of the United States in the first place?
EVERY left-winger in the world MUST be treated as terrorists
who are aiding & abetting Al-Qaeda: they are America's ENEMY!
This despicable terrorist Ricardo Lagos needs to be euthanized
immediately and at our earliest possible convenience. Liberals
really ought to be Exterminated along with this inhuman vermin.
Made in America,
Daniel Joseph Min
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=Lm8m
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On 27 Nov 2004, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile?
Geopolitical expert Jack Wheeler describes disturbing security stare down
Posted: November 27, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Dr. Jack Wheeler, creator of a unique intelligence website dubbed "the oasis
for rational conservatives," features a column describing what could have
turned into a deadly scenario in Chile for President Bush.
On his website, To the Point, Wheeler tells a little-known story about a
conflict between Bush's security detail and Chile's security over the latter's
refusal to have a metal-detector at a state dinner for the president. There is
speculation, Wheeler points out, that Bush-loathing Venezuelan President Hugo
Chavez, a chum of Fidel Castro, is somehow connected to the incident.
Wheeler explains that Chilean officials attempted to block Secret Service agent
Nick Trotta from protecting the president.
Writes Wheeler: "The attempt was a clear double-cross, because all security
arrangements are made and agreed upon for the POTUS (President of the United
States) between the Secret Service and host country security well in advance
and etched in stone. The Chilean police knew and agreed that Trotta would be
with the president, yet they blocked him in a complete surprise.
"Far worse than this was Chilean President Lagos' refusal to have guests at a
State Dinner go through a metal detector. No one attends a function with the
POTUS, either here in the U.S. or anywhere in the world, without going through
a metal detector, and this was agreed to way beforehand in Santiago. At the
last moment, Lagos refuses - then cancels the dinner when the Secret Service
won't budge."
Available only to subscribers of To the Point, Wheeler's piece, entitled
"Chavez in Chile," goes on to explain the connection to Chavez.
"Ricardo Lagos is a left-wing anti-American socialist whose hero is Salvador
Allende, who almost turned Chile over to the Soviets, and a great friend of
Hugo Chavez," Wheeler writes. "Was there a plan to slip a firearm into this
dinner in Santiago and assassinate GW? No one in Washington is sure - but
there is a very frightened and angry buzz of worry that there might have been."
Subscribe to Wheeler's To the Point intelligence website and read the entire
article.
Prime-time intelligence analysis
Besides writing for To the Point, Wheeler heads the Freedom Research
Foundation, which currently is working on what he calls the Free Iran Project.
The project applies "Reagan Doctrine strategies toward the liberation of Iran,"
he explained.
The website is global, Wheeler says, "but we really focus on issues people are
really interested in ... key areas of geo-strategic and national security
import for the United States."
'Religion without a future'
Wheeler said Islam is also a focus of To the Point, including "the nature of
Islam and the problems Islam faces - with regard to us and with regard to its
own future."
"Quite frankly," he said, "there are a lot of extinct religions in the history
pages, and Islam is going to become extinct unless it's reformed.
"When you start blowing yourself up, when you get that kind of insane
desperation, you're history," he said. "This is a religion without a future
unless it reforms."
On his site, Wheeler includes a subscription article comparing the Aztecs with
Arabs: "Both the Arabs and the Aztecs invented a religion of jihad as a
rationale to justify their imperialist empires. ..."
"War - Holy War - became the purpose of the Aztec state. All soldiers in
the Aztec army were holy warriors, warriors of the gods. Peace was dangerous.
No war meant no prisoners to sacrifice, no food for the gods, which risked the
destruction of mankind and the universe itself. The only way to avoid cosmic
disaster was for the Aztecs to accept the burden fate had given them and wage
perpetual war for the salvation of humanity.
"All in all, a pretty clever rationalization for a monstrous imperialist
tyranny, wouldn't you say? Sounds like they were taking religion-inventing
lessons from the Arabs."
Adventure in his blood
Wheeler, who holds a doctorate in Philosophy, has always been drawn by the
thrill and accomplishment of adventure. He became the youngest Eagle Scout in
history at age 12 before becoming the youngest person to climb the Matterhorn
in Switzerland at age 14.
"People collect things," Wheeler explains. "They collect stamps, or coins, or
porcelain. At 14, I decided what I wanted was to collect extraordinary
experiences. You could lose your stamps or coins, but you can never lose what
you have done with your life."
Wheeler swam the Hellespont like Leander in Greek mythology, was adopted into a
tribe of Amazon headhunters and successfully hunted a man-eating tiger in South
Vietnam while still in high school.
"My intellectual adventures began when I read Ayn Rand, Ludwig von Mises and
Aristotle, inspiring me to get a Ph.D. in Philosophy," he said. "I explored
Africa, the Gobi, Mongolia, Central Asia, Tibet, the Himalayas, the Andes,
Borneo and the South Pacific, discovered lost tribes in New Guinea and the
Kalahari, took elephants over the Alps in Hannibal's footsteps, skydived onto
the North Pole, roused anti-Marxist guerrillas from Angola to Afghanistan and
helped get rid of the Soviet Union."
Forty years after Wheeler's historic climb of the Matterhorn, he ascended the
mountain again, this time with his 14-year-old eldest son, Brandon.
Wheeler completes his column entitled "What life is all about" this way:
"No lion, sitting underneath an acacia tree in the Serengeti, asks himself,
'What does it mean to be a lion? What is the purpose of my existence?' A lion
has no choice but to unselfconsciously follow his genetic program. But human
beings have to figure out how and why to survive, they have to choose a
rationale that gives purpose and meaning for their lives. My choice has been to
try and make my life, and now the life of my son, a thrilling adventure."
Wheeler has worn many labels throughout his decades as an adventurer and
geopolitical expert. The Wall Street Journal called him "the originator of the
Reagan Doctrine." The Washington Post called him "The Indiana Jones of the
Right," and Izvestiya, the organ of the Soviet Communist Party, called him an
"ideological gangster."
Wheeler says his site offers readers "mind-stretching pro-America insights on
our lives, our politics and our world."
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., sums up Wheeler's extraordinary life:
"Jack Wheeler is just about the most interesting man I know. As a professional
adventurer, he has discovered lost tribes and led expeditions to every corner
of the globe. As a geopolitical strategist, he created the Reagan Doctrine,
which led to the demise of the Soviet Union. He is a brilliantly original
thinker and deeply perceptive analyst of world events. I value his counsel and
friendship."
Here's how Wheeler describes his online resource:
"To The Point intends to be both the world's most accurate and insightful
geopolitical intelligence service, and a pro-America, pro-capitalist,
pro-Western Civilization intellectual ammunition service for defenders of
liberty.
"Our goal is for our subscribers to look upon To The Point as an oasis of
reason and insight. Our subscribers are becoming the most highly informed
people in America."
.
|
|
|
| User: "bollogs" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
28 Nov 2004 09:45:41 AM |
|
|
Daniel Joseph Min <Real.Min@Colorado.USA> wrote in message news:<D1VX38SY38318.6415162037@anonymous.poster>...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Jesus! WHAT ON EARTH was President Bush doing in the company
of a known *enemy* of the United States in the first place?
EVERY left-winger in the world MUST be treated as terrorists
who are aiding & abetting Al-Qaeda: they are America's ENEMY!
This despicable terrorist Ricardo Lagos needs to be euthanized
immediately and at our earliest possible convenience. Liberals
really ought to be Exterminated along with this inhuman vermin.
Made in America,
Daniel Joseph Min
....and where else would such a load of total bollocks come from but America!
WH
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
28 Nov 2004 09:51:06 AM |
|
|
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from but America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that supports this clown be? Exactly, a self loathing
American.
Tony
.
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| User: "Doc" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
28 Nov 2004 12:33:16 PM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that supports this clown be? Exactly, a self
loathing
American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% who didn't support his choice as
leader, or support his leaders' policies...which makes you a hater of
nearly half of America. Yup, an America-hating *****. The 48% is that of
the electorate. Millions of potential voters were never heard from.
And where were you supporting your glorious leader during the heat of the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, but in other identities, hiding
out until Bush won and, well, here you are, so adamant that the other half
of America should pack up and leave the country.
I got some news for you, psycho boy. And it's probably been delivered many
times to you over the years.
But, here it is again --
You're not going to get the unified America you desire, one that fits your
persona, your ideology, your morality, et al, in your entire stupid
lifetime. That ideal world you seek will always escape your grasp, and it
will be only fantasy and self-delusion that'll be a comfort to you in your
continued futility to have others see life like you do.
You could be here until you're 100 years old, still banging your narrow
ideology, your small mind, your bigotries, your nationalistic fanaticism
(et al), against those who differ -- and there will always be lots of
opposition to your extremism.
What you will likely never realize is that your projection of serious
personality problems in yourself onto daily world events, and the verbal
hammering of "the other side" is more an issue of psychological and social
maladjustment to a world of human diversity, in every sense of the word,
than a real interest in the topics themselves. Where there is no real
love, understanding, compromise, maturity and intelligence, there is
intolerance, bigotry, hatred, a love for endless conflicts instead, and
the attendant grind of personal wars, as well. Yup, you hypocrite, what
you say you hate in others are the very things you hate about yourself.
Self-loathing? How many lies have you told here, only to disappear
periodically in a vain attempt to renew yourself, then reappear with the
same obsessions and unending hatred? The pathetic circle is completed
each and every time, finding yourself hating your own lying, cowardice,
etc, and, unable to face it, you instead engage in the usual whacking of
others. How many times can you repeat this behavior before you simply
crack up AGAIN, and take another so-called 'vacation' to renew yourself
with your self-delusions?
I realize I will never get the world I want totally and most reasonable,
intelligent folks know that it'll always be a world of compromises till
the end of our lives. We'll get some things, but not others, ever. Some
will be gained, then lost, only to be regained...and especially politics
is like this. As you go on grinding away, the life force gradually slips
away and, in that manner, you and all of us are "losers." We grow old,
sick, feeble and dependent. If you want, you can be in a nursing or rehab
center, still arguing that those who differ are haters of America, that
any war started by any President should be wholeheartedly supported, and
so on. War is a fever in you. That is clear. It would likely be less so if
you were in the war yourself and came back missing two arms. Typing on a
keyboard would have to be by toes or a pencil in your mouth. Would you
support any war that comes along then? Could be. Some learn, others don't.
Good luck, bozo...dream on, baby, dream on! LOL...give us some more of
that favored "TRUTH" from biased sources, man. Your version, or their
version, of what they, or you, call the "truth." Most of us can see
through you like a clear window pane on a bright day. Now, I've wasted
enough time on another APN psychopath, so you run along back to WND for
some more one-sided ideological tit-sucking.
Doc ;D
.
|
|
|
| User: "TonyZ2001" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
29 Nov 2004 07:43:31 AM |
|
|
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly, a self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a hater of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish for it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the heat of the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities, hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October, and that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60 Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and more Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but they will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth frothing rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doc" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
29 Nov 2004 09:28:18 AM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly, a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a hater of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the heat of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October, and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions. America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of divergent
ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt to tip
it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a form of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your agenda,
or that of those in office you support, as something morally less than you
is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately self-centered.
What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that your particular
brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which all Americans
should accept and that those who don't--which make up half the nation
presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation they live in, pay
taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet, is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or represent a
threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then that, too, is your
right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or make it
null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders and
their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've followed your
crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for someone who
is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of diversity, and
an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally favor.
You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no authority
or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and, as such, an
impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land that frightens and
angers you.
Doc ;D
.
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
29 Nov 2004 07:21:37 PM |
|
|
"Doc" <> wrote in message
news:coff6b0rrf@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly, a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a hater of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the heat of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October, and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions. America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of divergent
ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt to tip
it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a form of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your agenda,
or that of those in office you support, as something morally less than you
is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately self-centered.
What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that your particular
brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which all Americans
should accept and that those who don't--which make up half the nation
presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation they live in, pay
taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet, is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or represent a
threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then that, too, is your
right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or make it
null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders and
their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've followed your
crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for someone who
is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of diversity, and
an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally favor.
You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no authority
or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and, as such, an
impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land that frightens and
angers you.
Doc ;D
If I may jump in here and give you the point of view of someone who's been
reading this NG for only a few weeks.
You obviously have had a lot more contact with Tonyz2001 and it is
understandable that your relationship with him be more personal.
As someone who's been reading this NG for only a few weeks, my perception of
Tonyz2001 is a lot less personal. I basically consider him an ID (as I
consider you and everyone else). I must say I enjoy reading his messages for
they represent an unfiltered view held by a significant number of Americans
today. I am not saying he represents America, but an important, and growing,
part of it. If I try to personify Tonyz2001, I see him as this regular guy
holding a blue color job in a small Mid-West American town. Maybe a wife and
a few kids, a few beers to many over the weekend, a little fist fight in the
bar, etc. But as far as Usenet goes, he expresses his views with a lot of
conviction, because he profoundly believes in them. He is not an intellectual
and doesn't pretend to be. He doesn't censor himself out and doesn't care if
we don't agree with him. He just "knows" and it bugs him that a lot of people
don't!
There is another poster that I like very much, and that is Daniel Joseph Min.
Although very radical, he is the best Usenet manifestation [that I know of]
of unedited, uncensored views of the main intellectual current in the
American society today. He provides the intellectual foundations for people
like tonyz2001. I think there is a lot of value having them here. We should
encourage them to express themselves as often as possible (mind you, they are
doing great even now). Sure, they create some confrontations and bad blood,
but as you state correctly, that's what America is about.
Stat.
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Foreman" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
30 Nov 2004 06:39:17 AM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> Spat the Words
"Doc" < > wrote in message
news:coff6b0rrf@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from
but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly, a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a hater
of nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the heat
of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October, and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions. America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of
divergent ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt to
tip it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a form of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your
agenda, or that of those in office you support, as something morally
less than you is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately
self-centered. What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that
your particular brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which
all Americans should accept and that those who don't--which make up
half the nation presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation
they live in, pay taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet, is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or
represent a threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then
that, too, is your right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or make
it null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders
and their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've followed
your crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for
someone who is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of diversity,
and an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally
favor. You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no
authority or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and,
as such, an impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land
that frightens and angers you.
Doc ;D
If I may jump in here and give you the point of view of someone who's
been reading this NG for only a few weeks.
You obviously have had a lot more contact with Tonyz2001 and it is
understandable that your relationship with him be more personal.
As someone who's been reading this NG for only a few weeks, my
perception of Tonyz2001 is a lot less personal. I basically consider him
an ID (as I consider you and everyone else). I must say I enjoy reading
his messages for they represent an unfiltered view held by a significant
number of Americans today. I am not saying he represents America, but an
important, and growing, part of it. If I try to personify Tonyz2001, I
see him as this regular guy holding a blue color job in a small Mid-West
American town. Maybe a wife and a few kids, a few beers to many over the
weekend, a little fist fight in the bar, etc. But as far as Usenet goes,
he expresses his views with a lot of conviction, because he profoundly
believes in them.
He has confused himself into believing things as fact, when
no fact in reality actually exists.
He is not an intellectual and doesn't pretend to be.
There's an understatement.
He doesn't censor himself out and doesn't care if we don't agree with
him. He just "knows" and it bugs him that a lot of people don't!
Like I said, the veracity of what he 'knows' is highly questionable.
There is another poster that I like very much, and that is Daniel Joseph
Min. Although very radical, he is the best Usenet manifestation [that I
know of] of unedited, uncensored views of the main intellectual current
in the American society today. He provides the intellectual foundations
for people like tonyz2001. I think there is a lot of value having them
here. We should encourage them to express themselves as often as
possible (mind you, they are doing great even now). Sure, they create
some confrontations and bad blood, but as you state correctly, that's
what America is about. Stat.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Doc" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
30 Nov 2004 12:13:00 AM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LWPqd.11432$Ad3.718294@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Doc" < > wrote in message
news:coff6b0rrf@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from
but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly, a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice
as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a hater
of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the heat
of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October,
and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and
more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but
they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions.
America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of
divergent
ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt to
tip
it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a form
of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions
here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your
agenda,
or that of those in office you support, as something morally less than
you
is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately self-centered.
What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that your
particular
brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which all Americans
should accept and that those who don't--which make up half the nation
presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation they live in,
pay
taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet, is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or
represent a
threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then that, too, is
your
right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or make
it
null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders
and
their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've followed
your
crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for someone
who
is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of diversity,
and
an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally
favor.
You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no
authority
or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and, as such,
an
impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land that frightens
and
angers you.
Doc ;D
If I may jump in here and give you the point of view of someone who's
been
reading this NG for only a few weeks.
You obviously have had a lot more contact with Tonyz2001 and it is
understandable that your relationship with him be more personal.
As someone who's been reading this NG for only a few weeks, my
perception of
Tonyz2001 is a lot less personal. I basically consider him an ID (as I
consider you and everyone else). I must say I enjoy reading his messages
for
they represent an unfiltered view held by a significant number of
Americans
today. I am not saying he represents America, but an important, and
growing,
part of it. If I try to personify Tonyz2001, I see him as this regular
guy
holding a blue color job in a small Mid-West American town. Maybe a wife
and
a few kids, a few beers to many over the weekend, a little fist fight in
the
bar, etc. But as far as Usenet goes, he expresses his views with a lot
of
conviction, because he profoundly believes in them. He is not an
intellectual
and doesn't pretend to be. He doesn't censor himself out and doesn't
care if
we don't agree with him. He just "knows" and it bugs him that a lot of
people
don't!
There is another poster that I like very much, and that is Daniel Joseph
Min.
Although very radical, he is the best Usenet manifestation [that I know
of]
of unedited, uncensored views of the main intellectual current in the
American society today. He provides the intellectual foundations for
people
like tonyz2001. I think there is a lot of value having them here. We
should
encourage them to express themselves as often as possible (mind you,
they are
doing great even now). Sure, they create some confrontations and bad
blood,
but as you state correctly, that's what America is about.
Stat.
Jeez...I don't know where to start. First of all, as I said, and you said,
too, is that Tony has the right to say and think whatever he wants, and
that goes for me, you and everyone here. I don't support censoring him or
anyone, nor do I support a killfile on him for myself. All said and done,
he and others like him here provide me with some much need entertainment.
Occasionally, of course, they just ***** me off! ;D
That said, however, it also allows me to criticize him severely because,
unlike you, I've seen more of his online ID persona, much more. My
impression of him is that he doesn't realize he's a proto-fascist being,
or even understands what that might manifest itself to be in his words
here. I know that he has a limited understanding of these things, but I
look at any form of fascistic thinking as a cancer on democracy, and a
potential threat to our liberties, as constitutionally defined. I know
Tony (and others here) think of me as a kook, a terrorist-lover (HAH!), a
communist, an evil creature who delights in pranks. Actually, I'm a
satirist, a mid-level thinker and a writer.
It doesn't mean that I think Tony is a threat per se, but that, as you
said, a growing number of folks are thinking like him in current times.
Historically, this doesn't give me reason for optimism for the protection
of our individual rights and the overall health of our democracy.
Ignorance, rage, conformity, paranoia, intolerance and various kinds of
hatred are clearly swelling up in a lot of Americans these days, propelled
by a leadership that obviously does little to squell this rising tide.
It's a tide, historically, that has led to, generally, more bloodletting,
oppression and human suffering of all kinds. It is extremism again,
wearing a different face, but ultimately leading to the same miseries --
warfare, forms of authoritarianism, class conflicts, racism, religious
fanaticism, ad nauseam.
While Bush may portray himself as one of those good ol' boys down at the
Saturday night tavern, he is in fact a rich elitist from a family of
questionable history. I know Tony and many others are seeing an image they
can identify with. Bush doesn't speak or think intellectually, and they
aren't intimidated by him because of it.
Yet, behind the clownish guffaws and gaffes of Bush, rests absolute
corporate-military power that has the ability to make our lives more
restricted and regimental, if one believes, or commits oneself to
believing the propaganda which is a standard fixture of power and
domination -- the winning of hearts and minds.
Apparently, Tony's little heart and mind have been won. I hope you're not
another one, but that it your right to support, believe in and promote
what you think is right in life. I will continue to do the same.
Doc ;D
.
|
|
|
| User: "Daniel Johnson Mini" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
30 Nov 2004 07:45:47 AM |
|
|
"Doc" <> wrote in message
news:coh31101eb3@enews1.newsguy.com...
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LWPqd.11432$Ad3.718294@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Doc" < > wrote in message
news:coff6b0rrf@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come
from
but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly,
a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice
as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a
hater
of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish
for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the
heat
of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October,
and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and
more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but
they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth
frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions.
America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of
divergent
ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt to
tip
it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a form
of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions
here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your
agenda,
or that of those in office you support, as something morally less
than
you
is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately self-centered.
What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that your
particular
brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which all
Americans
should accept and that those who don't--which make up half the
nation
presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation they live
in,
pay
taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a
lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet, is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or
represent a
threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then that, too,
is
your
right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or
make
it
null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders
and
their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've
followed
your
crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for
someone
who
is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of
diversity,
and
an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally
favor.
You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no
authority
or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and, as
such,
an
impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land that
frightens
and
angers you.
Doc ;D
I usually don't bother with shitty insignifcant ***** ants like *YOU* but
to defend Tony, a good Republican, I will tell you that *HELL* is where
your *SOUL* will go, liberal scum!!!
*GOD* will soon sweep the human vermin away and *CLEANSE* the planet of
your evil pollution!!!
It will be a GREAT DAY when that happens and I will enjoy pissing on your
GRAVE!!!
Daniel Johnson Mini
*SERvANt OF GOD*
If I may jump in here and give you the point of view of someone who's
been
reading this NG for only a few weeks.
You obviously have had a lot more contact with Tonyz2001 and it is
understandable that your relationship with him be more personal.
As someone who's been reading this NG for only a few weeks, my
perception of
Tonyz2001 is a lot less personal. I basically consider him an ID (as I
consider you and everyone else). I must say I enjoy reading his
messages
for
they represent an unfiltered view held by a significant number of
Americans
today. I am not saying he represents America, but an important, and
growing,
part of it. If I try to personify Tonyz2001, I see him as this regular
guy
holding a blue color job in a small Mid-West American town. Maybe a
wife
and
a few kids, a few beers to many over the weekend, a little fist fight
in
the
bar, etc. But as far as Usenet goes, he expresses his views with a lot
of
conviction, because he profoundly believes in them. He is not an
intellectual
and doesn't pretend to be. He doesn't censor himself out and doesn't
care if
we don't agree with him. He just "knows" and it bugs him that a lot of
people
don't!
There is another poster that I like very much, and that is Daniel
Joseph
Min.
Although very radical, he is the best Usenet manifestation [that I
know
of]
of unedited, uncensored views of the main intellectual current in the
American society today. He provides the intellectual foundations for
people
like tonyz2001. I think there is a lot of value having them here. We
should
encourage them to express themselves as often as possible (mind you,
they are
doing great even now). Sure, they create some confrontations and bad
blood,
but as you state correctly, that's what America is about.
Stat.
Jeez...I don't know where to start. First of all, as I said, and you
said,
too, is that Tony has the right to say and think whatever he wants, and
that goes for me, you and everyone here. I don't support censoring him
or
anyone, nor do I support a killfile on him for myself. All said and
done,
he and others like him here provide me with some much need
entertainment.
Occasionally, of course, they just ***** me off! ;D
That said, however, it also allows me to criticize him severely because,
unlike you, I've seen more of his online ID persona, much more. My
impression of him is that he doesn't realize he's a proto-fascist being,
or even understands what that might manifest itself to be in his words
here. I know that he has a limited understanding of these things, but I
look at any form of fascistic thinking as a cancer on democracy, and a
potential threat to our liberties, as constitutionally defined. I know
Tony (and others here) think of me as a kook, a terrorist-lover (HAH!),
a
communist, an evil creature who delights in pranks. Actually, I'm a
satirist, a mid-level thinker and a writer.
It doesn't mean that I think Tony is a threat per se, but that, as you
said, a growing number of folks are thinking like him in current times.
Historically, this doesn't give me reason for optimism for the
protection
of our individual rights and the overall health of our democracy.
Ignorance, rage, conformity, paranoia, intolerance and various kinds of
hatred are clearly swelling up in a lot of Americans these days,
propelled
by a leadership that obviously does little to squell this rising tide.
It's a tide, historically, that has led to, generally, more
bloodletting,
oppression and human suffering of all kinds. It is extremism again,
wearing a different face, but ultimately leading to the same miseries --
warfare, forms of authoritarianism, class conflicts, racism, religious
fanaticism, ad nauseam.
While Bush may portray himself as one of those good ol' boys down at the
Saturday night tavern, he is in fact a rich elitist from a family of
questionable history. I know Tony and many others are seeing an image
they
can identify with. Bush doesn't speak or think intellectually, and they
aren't intimidated by him because of it.
Yet, behind the clownish guffaws and gaffes of Bush, rests absolute
corporate-military power that has the ability to make our lives more
restricted and regimental, if one believes, or commits oneself to
believing the propaganda which is a standard fixture of power and
domination -- the winning of hearts and minds.
Apparently, Tony's little heart and mind have been won. I hope you're
not
another one, but that it your right to support, believe in and promote
what you think is right in life. I will continue to do the same.
Doc ;D
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "MonsieurStat" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
30 Nov 2004 08:27:54 PM |
|
|
"Doc" <> wrote in message
news:coh31101eb3@enews1.newsguy.com...
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LWPqd.11432$Ad3.718294@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Doc" < > wrote in message
news:coff6b0rrf@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come from
but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be? Exactly, a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his choice
as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a hater
of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the heat
of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October,
and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have 60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and
more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but
they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions.
America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of
divergent
ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt to
tip
it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a form
of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions
here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your
agenda,
or that of those in office you support, as something morally less than
you
is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately self-centered.
What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that your
particular
brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which all Americans
should accept and that those who don't--which make up half the nation
presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation they live in,
pay
taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet, is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or
represent a
threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then that, too, is
your
right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or make
it
null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders
and
their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've followed
your
crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for someone
who
is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of diversity,
and
an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally
favor.
You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no
authority
or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and, as such,
an
impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land that frightens
and
angers you.
Doc ;D
If I may jump in here and give you the point of view of someone who's
been
reading this NG for only a few weeks.
You obviously have had a lot more contact with Tonyz2001 and it is
understandable that your relationship with him be more personal.
As someone who's been reading this NG for only a few weeks, my
perception of
Tonyz2001 is a lot less personal. I basically consider him an ID (as I
consider you and everyone else). I must say I enjoy reading his messages
for
they represent an unfiltered view held by a significant number of
Americans
today. I am not saying he represents America, but an important, and
growing,
part of it. If I try to personify Tonyz2001, I see him as this regular
guy
holding a blue color job in a small Mid-West American town. Maybe a wife
and
a few kids, a few beers to many over the weekend, a little fist fight in
the
bar, etc. But as far as Usenet goes, he expresses his views with a lot
of
conviction, because he profoundly believes in them. He is not an
intellectual
and doesn't pretend to be. He doesn't censor himself out and doesn't
care if
we don't agree with him. He just "knows" and it bugs him that a lot of
people
don't!
There is another poster that I like very much, and that is Daniel Joseph
Min.
Although very radical, he is the best Usenet manifestation [that I know
of]
of unedited, uncensored views of the main intellectual current in the
American society today. He provides the intellectual foundations for
people
like tonyz2001. I think there is a lot of value having them here. We
should
encourage them to express themselves as often as possible (mind you,
they are
doing great even now). Sure, they create some confrontations and bad
blood,
but as you state correctly, that's what America is about.
Stat.
Jeez...I don't know where to start. First of all, as I said, and you said,
too, is that Tony has the right to say and think whatever he wants, and
that goes for me, you and everyone here. I don't support censoring him or
anyone, nor do I support a killfile on him for myself. All said and done,
he and others like him here provide me with some much need entertainment.
Occasionally, of course, they just ***** me off! ;D
That said, however, it also allows me to criticize him severely because,
unlike you, I've seen more of his online ID persona, much more. My
impression of him is that he doesn't realize he's a proto-fascist being,
or even understands what that might manifest itself to be in his words
here. I know that he has a limited understanding of these things, but I
look at any form of fascistic thinking as a cancer on democracy, and a
potential threat to our liberties, as constitutionally defined. I know
Tony (and others here) think of me as a kook, a terrorist-lover (HAH!), a
communist, an evil creature who delights in pranks. Actually, I'm a
satirist, a mid-level thinker and a writer.
It doesn't mean that I think Tony is a threat per se, but that, as you
said, a growing number of folks are thinking like him in current times.
Historically, this doesn't give me reason for optimism for the protection
of our individual rights and the overall health of our democracy.
Ignorance, rage, conformity, paranoia, intolerance and various kinds of
hatred are clearly swelling up in a lot of Americans these days, propelled
by a leadership that obviously does little to squell this rising tide.
It's a tide, historically, that has led to, generally, more bloodletting,
oppression and human suffering of all kinds. It is extremism again,
wearing a different face, but ultimately leading to the same miseries --
warfare, forms of authoritarianism, class conflicts, racism, religious
fanaticism, ad nauseam.
While Bush may portray himself as one of those good ol' boys down at the
Saturday night tavern, he is in fact a rich elitist from a family of
questionable history. I know Tony and many others are seeing an image they
can identify with. Bush doesn't speak or think intellectually, and they
aren't intimidated by him because of it.
Yet, behind the clownish guffaws and gaffes of Bush, rests absolute
corporate-military power that has the ability to make our lives more
restricted and regimental, if one believes, or commits oneself to
believing the propaganda which is a standard fixture of power and
domination -- the winning of hearts and minds.
Apparently, Tony's little heart and mind have been won. I hope you're not
another one, but that it your right to support, believe in and promote
what you think is right in life. I will continue to do the same.
Doc ;D
Thank you Doc for your thoughtful message. I enjoyed it very much. [yes siree
yes indeedy deedy do..... c. Uncle Walley] :-)
I fully understand your sentiments vis-a-vis radicalism and extremism in the
world today. It surely doesn't make me sleep any better at night either.
"Personalities" such as Bush and Bin Laden, etc. incarnate different flavors
of extremism in the world today. It would have been surprising if these folks
were not shady characters with shady backgrounds. So I don't think that is
the point. I think what is more important is to look at the world contexts
that has allowed the rise of such people in positions of power. I don't know
the answer to that. My hypothesis is that the world needs to change - and is
using extremism as a catalyst to go faster towards that change. Whatever it
may be...
Take the American elections. Surprising results indeed, but if we have any
confidence left in the collective wisdom and democracy, we have to step back
and ask what is in that wisdom that sees Bush as the right man to lead the
United States, and yes we have to admit it, The Whole World, to something
new; a New Age if you like? Personally all I can figure out is that the
alternative - i.e. John Kerry - would have only slowed down the process more
than anything else. Bush is much likelier to go all the way. A lot of blood
shed, yes; a lot of misery and suffering and loss of liberties all over the
world, indeed. But what are the possible outcomes of all of that? Will Bush
be the wake up call for humanity that we just cannot go on this way much
longer? That we cannot keep polluting the earth, waste our resources, leave
three quarters of earth's population at the starvation level, make hundreds
of species extinct each year, look upon cows and chicken and what not as
manufactured products, etc. etc. etc. Or will he just destroy us all either
by blowing up the whole earth, or turning mankind into zombie slaves?
What I am trying to say is that there is something VERY fundamentally wrong
with us as specie. We have gone stray and blind, and we just can't seem to be
able to fix it anymore. So what's the solution? Self Destruction maybe?
Awakening perhaps? As the saying goes, extreme problems call for extreme
measures. Maybe that's why there is so much extremism in the world today.
Stat.
P.S. What is a mid-level thinker?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doc" |
|
| Title: Re: Was there a plot to kill Bush in Chile? |
01 Dec 2004 05:05:20 AM |
|
|
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:V_9rd.14120$kI6.929513@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Doc" < > wrote in message
news:coh31101eb3@enews1.newsguy.com...
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:LWPqd.11432$Ad3.718294@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Doc" < > wrote in message
news:coff6b0rrf@enews2.newsguy.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041129084331.06305.00000903@mb-m27.aol.com...
"Doc"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128105106.06002.00000837@mb-m21.aol.com...
bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
...and where else would such a load of >total bollocks come
from
but
America!
WH
Say the American hating *****.
So what would an American that >supports this clown be?
Exactly, a
self
loathing American.
Tony
Says the American who hates the 48% >who didn't support his
choice
as
leader, or support his leaders' >policies...which makes you a
hater
of
nearly half of America.
LOL!!! Nope, most of those people hate their own country and wish
for
it's
failure, therefore they are not real Americans.
Millions of potential voters were never >heard from.
And who's fault is that?
And where were you supporting your >glorious leader during the
heat
of
the
election? Not here as TonyZ, certainly, >but in other identities,
hiding
out until Bush won
Wrong, I was only in this group one time from August thru October,
and
that was
by mistake.
You're not going to get the unified >America you desire,
America is moving further toward the right, by 2008 we will have
60
Republican
Senators, more of a majority in the House of Representatives, and
more
Stae
Governorships.
Yes we'll always have a rather large vocal group on the left, but
they
will
become les and less significant as time goes by.
Oh, if you think I was going to read the rest of your mouth
frothing
rant, you
were mistaken.
Tony
You're in no special position, above others, to determine who is an
American and who is not, by using your own narrow definitions.
America,
historically and in the present, has been a land chock full of
divergent
ideologies by independent-thinking folks.
It is this nation's major strength, not its weakness. Any attempt
to
tip
it into extremism, to narrow or restrict this strength, is not only
against that long tradition, but is a clear direction towards a
form
of
fascism. I don't expect you'd understand. Your repeated assertions
here
that you'd like to see liberals, or anyone who moves against your
agenda,
or that of those in office you support, as something morally less
than
you
is offensive, childish, egotistical and ultimately self-centered.
What I said, I stand by, and challenge you to prove that your
particular
brand of "patriotism" is the standard measure by which all
Americans
should accept and that those who don't--which make up half the
nation
presently--should be thought of as haters of the nation they live
in,
pay
taxes in, and abide by its laws. Prove it!
One of those constitutional laws is the right of assembly in a
lawful,
peaceful manner to address grievances against its elected
officials.
The right of all Americans to disagree with each other, and with
its
elected representatives, including the President and his Cabinet,
is
clearly protected by the creed of this country.
If you wish to alienate and compartmentalize a huge portion of the
population that disagrees with you, as it exercises those
guaranteed
rights, as people who are unpatriotic, in your narrow view, or
represent a
threat to your myopic version of American freedom, then that, too,
is
your
right.
But your right to do so doesn't revise the law of this nation, or
make
it
null and void simply because many disagree with you, or the leaders
and
their policies you support.
BTW, you're a liar and have been here in different IDs. I've
followed
your
crap since 1998. You're not fooling me. Save that ***** for
someone
who
is naive.
You're a hater of much of America's population, a hater of
diversity,
and
an avid lover of conformity to thoughts and ideals you personally
favor.
You're a cheap cheesy version of a little dictator, but with no
authority
or power to oppress or control those you despise or fear and, as
such,
an
impotent small being thrashing about in a very big land that
frightens
and
angers you.
Doc ;D
If I may jump in here and give you the point of view of someone who's
been
reading this NG for only a few weeks.
You obviously have had a lot more contact with Tonyz2001 and it is
understandable that your relationship with him be more personal.
As someone who's been reading this NG for only a few weeks, my
perception of
Tonyz2001 is a lot less personal. I basically consider him an ID (as
I
consider you and everyone else). I must say I enjoy reading his
messages
for
they represent an unfiltered view held by a significant number of
Americans
today. I am not saying he represents America, but an important, and
growing,
part of it. If I try to personify Tonyz2001, I see him as this
regular
guy
holding a blue color job in a small Mid-West American town. Maybe a
wife
and
a few kids, a few beers to many over the weekend, a little fist fight
in
the
bar, etc. But as far as Usenet goes, he expresses his views with a
lot
of
conviction, because he profoundly believes in them. He is not an
intellectual
and doesn't pretend to be. He doesn't censor himself out and doesn't
care if
we don't agree with him. He just "knows" and it bugs him that a lot
of
people
don't!
There is another poster that I like very much, and that is Daniel
Joseph
Min.
Although very radical, he is the best Usenet manifestation [that I
know
of]
of unedited, uncensored views of the main intellectual current in the
American society today. He provides the intellectual foundations for
people
like tonyz2001. I think there is a lot of value having them here. We
should
encourage them to express themselves as often as possible (mind you,
they are
doing great even now). Sure, they create some confrontations and bad
blood,
but as you state correctly, that's what America is about.
Stat.
Jeez...I don't know where to start. First of all, as I said, and you
said,
too, is that Tony has the right to say and think whatever he wants,
and
that goes for me, you and everyone here. I don't support censoring him
or
anyone, nor do I support a killfile on him for myself. All said and
done,
he and others like him here provide me with some much need
entertainment.
Occasionally, of course, they just ***** me off! ;D
That said, however, it also allows me to criticize him severely
because,
unlike you, I've seen more of his online ID persona, much more. My
impression of him is that he doesn't realize he's a proto-fascist
being,
or even understands what that might manifest itself to be in his words
here. I know that he has a limited understanding of these things, but
I
look at any form of fascistic thinking as a cancer on democracy, and a
potential threat to our liberties, as constitutionally defined. I know
Tony (and others here) think of me as a kook, a terrorist-lover
(HAH!), a
communist, an evil creature who delights in pranks. Actually, I'm a
satirist, a mid-level thinker and a writer.
It doesn't mean that I think Tony is a threat per se, but that, as you
said, a growing number of folks are thinking like him in current
times.
Historically, this doesn't give me reason for optimism for the
protection
of our individual rights and the overall health of our democracy.
Ignorance, rage, conformity, paranoia, intolerance and various kinds
of
hatred are clearly swelling up in a lot of Americans these days,
propelled
by a leadership that obviously does little to squell this rising tide.
It's a tide, historically, that has led to, generally, more
bloodletting,
oppression and human suffering of all kinds. It is extremism again,
wearing a different face, but ultimately leading to the same
miseries --
warfare, forms of authoritarianism, class conflicts, racism, religious
fanaticism, ad nauseam.
While Bush may portray himself as one of those good ol' boys down at
the
Saturday night tavern, he is in fact a rich elitist from a family of
questionable history. I know Tony and many others are seeing an image
they
can identify with. Bush doesn't speak or think intellectually, and
they
aren't intimidated by him because of it.
Yet, behind the clownish guffaws and gaffes of Bush, rests absolute
corporate-military power that has the ability to make our lives more
restricted and regimental, if one believes, or commits oneself to
believing the propaganda which is a standard fixture of power and
domination -- the winning of hearts and minds.
Apparently, Tony's little heart and mind have been won. I hope you're
not
another one, but that it your right to support, believe in and promote
what you think is right in life. I will continue to do the same.
Doc ;D
Thank you Doc for your thoughtful message. I enjoyed it very much. [yes
siree
yes indeedy deedy do..... c. Uncle Walley] :-)
I fully understand your sentiments vis-a-vis radicalism and extremism in
the
world today. It surely doesn't make me sleep any better at night either.
"Personalities" such as Bush and Bin Laden, etc. incarnate different
flavors
of extremism in the world today. It would have been surprising if these
folks
were not shady characters with shady backgrounds. So I don't think that
is
the point. I think what is more important is to look at the world
contexts
that has allowed the rise of such people in positions of power. I don't
know
the answer to that. My hypothesis is that the world needs to change -
and is
using extremism as a catalyst to go faster towards that change. Whatever
it
may be...
Take the American elections. Surprising results indeed, but if we have
any
confidence left in the collective wisdom and democracy, we have to step
back
and ask what is in that wisdom that sees Bush as the right man to lead
the
United States, and yes we have to admit it, The Whole World, to
something
new; a New Age if you like? Personally all I can figure out is that the
alternative - i.e. John Kerry - would have only slowed down the process
more
than anything else. Bush is much likelier to go all the way. A lot of
blood
shed, yes; a lot of misery and suffering and loss of liberties all over
the
world, indeed. But what are the possible outcomes of all of that? Will
Bush
be the wake up call for humanity that we just cannot go on this way much
longer? That we cannot keep polluting the earth, waste our resources,
leave
three quarters of earth's population at the starvation level, make
hundreds
of species extinct each year, look upon cows and chicken and what not as
manufactured products, etc. etc. etc. Or will he just destroy us all
either
by blowing up the whole earth, or turning mankind into zombie slaves?
What I am trying to say is that there is something VERY fundamentally
wrong
with us as specie. We have g | | | | | | | | | | |
