Turn on the TV and take a look at the
Palestinians rioting around Arafat's
coffin.
You expect Israel to deal rationally
with these Savages?
Tony
.
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
23 Nov 2004 01:10:00 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news: <cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Does your hatred for Islam stem from them "daring to share a belief
different to your own" or because you have formed a picture (based on a
minority, sadly ) of their behavuior and ethics and decided you find it
insane/threatening/dangerous?
There is a Mosque in my city that has been there for at least 25
years. For all the years I've been aware of it, I didn't really think
much about it beyond its beautiful architecture. I have interacted
with Muslims on a regular basis for many years, and my experience has
been that they're all, for the most part, wonderful and friendly
people.
I didn't know much about Islam before 9/11. I have learned a lot about
it since. It hasn't changed the way I interact with Muslims in my
community. As I said previously I judge people by the actions, not
their beliefs. I am very critical of the fundamentalist terrorists who
justify their actions based on their interpretation of teachings in
the Quran ... it's really a shame that the Quran DOES have teachings
that the terrorists are able to interpret as justification for their
murderous actions.
I wrote:
Some cultures, in my opinion, are superior to others.
Especially the white man's eh,.?
You know, the US is called the giant melting pot. We have all races
and all cultures represented here. We may not be perfect over here,
but we're all doing a pretty good job of getting along with each other
these days. Is there another society in the world where so many
different cultures co-exist as *one* society?
I wrote:
I can readily accept that you believe an atheist culture is
superior to a relgious culture.
*shrug* I don't. especially. I believe government should be secular, that's
about it.
That's the way the founders of the US Constitution set it up. It's one
of the reasons all the different cultures in the US are able to
co-exist.
I believe religion can be a very positive influence on culture, as I pointed
out in my last post.
Can you accept that I believe a
relgious culture is superior to an atheist culture?
I *believe* a society that based its moral code on Christianity would
probably be fairly pleasant as long as there were no penalties for not
being Christian. Sounds like a socialist Utopuia, in fact.
Actually, it sounds like the US.
As I said above, I think a society modelled on the best (i.e.
non-discriminatory) aspects of Christianity or Islam would probably be a
pleasant place to live.
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years (with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa. I enjoy reading most
posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way up there at the top
of my favorites list.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
23 Nov 2004 02:45:07 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:
<cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Does your hatred for Islam stem from them "daring to share a belief
different to your own" or because you have formed a picture (based on a
minority, sadly ) of their behavuior and ethics and decided you find it
insane/threatening/dangerous?
There is a Mosque in my city that has been there for at least 25
years. For all the years I've been aware of it, I didn't really think
much about it beyond its beautiful architecture. I have interacted
with Muslims on a regular basis for many years, and my experience has
been that they're all, for the most part, wonderful and friendly
people.
I didn't know much about Islam before 9/11. I have learned a lot about
it since. It hasn't changed the way I interact with Muslims in my
community. As I said previously I judge people by the actions, not
their beliefs.
Fair enough..
I am very critical of the fundamentalist terrorists who
justify their actions based on their interpretation of teachings in
the Quran ... it's really a shame that the Quran DOES have teachings
that the terrorists are able to interpret as justification for their
murderous actions.
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or at least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though. Examples avaliable on
request.
I wrote:
Some cultures, in my opinion, are superior to others.
Especially the white man's eh,.?
You know, the US is called the giant melting pot. We have all races
and all cultures represented here. We may not be perfect over here,
but we're all doing a pretty good job of getting along with each other
these days. Is there another society in the world where so many
different cultures co-exist as *one* society?
Weeell.. I don't think I've been to especially representative areas of the
States (just San Francisco, Northen California coast and Las Vegas so far)
but I must admit it actually sturkc me as MORE segregated and ghetto-ised
than e.g. London, Birmingham in terms of race and income. SF and Vegas
struck me as being several parallel societies co-existing rather than one.
I wrote:
I can readily accept that you believe an atheist culture is
superior to a relgious culture.
*shrug* I don't. especially. I believe government should be secular,
that's
about it.
That's the way the founders of the US Constitution set it up. It's one
of the reasons all the different cultures in the US are able to
co-exist.
I believe religion can be a very positive influence on culture, as I
pointed
out in my last post.
Can you accept that I believe a
relgious culture is superior to an atheist culture?
I *believe* a society that based its moral code on Christianity would
probably be fairly pleasant as long as there were no penalties for not
being Christian. Sounds like a socialist Utopuia, in fact.
Actually, it sounds like the US.
I'm sure many countries could lay claim to it sounding like them.
As I said above, I think a society modelled on the best (i.e.
non-discriminatory) aspects of Christianity or Islam would probably be a
pleasant place to live.
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years
"Beacon of freedom" to its inhabitants perhaps, the rest of the world's
mileage has varied (which is not to deny the precious contributins of the US
during WWII, but please don't make out you always get it right or act in the
best interests of anyone other than yourselves. In other words, you're just
like the rest of us.)
(with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
It alwas made me chuckle when Rumsfeld (or was it Cheney? All the same to me
really) pissed and moaned about "Old Europe" in reference to Germany - a
state which post dates the US by at least a century!
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa.
;-)
I enjoy reading most posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way
up there at the top
of my favorites list.
"Can't we all just get along?"
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 01:20:46 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<cnut3l$nr9$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:
<cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Does your hatred for Islam stem from them "daring to share a belief
different to your own" or because you have formed a picture (based on a
minority, sadly ) of their behavuior and ethics and decided you find it
insane/threatening/dangerous?
There is a Mosque in my city that has been there for at least 25
years. For all the years I've been aware of it, I didn't really think
much about it beyond its beautiful architecture. I have interacted
with Muslims on a regular basis for many years, and my experience has
been that they're all, for the most part, wonderful and friendly
people.
I didn't know much about Islam before 9/11. I have learned a lot about
it since. It hasn't changed the way I interact with Muslims in my
community. As I said previously I judge people by the actions, not
their beliefs.
Fair enough..
I am very critical of the fundamentalist terrorists who
justify their actions based on their interpretation of teachings in
the Quran ... it's really a shame that the Quran DOES have teachings
that the terrorists are able to interpret as justification for their
murderous actions.
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or at least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though.
But the reality of today's world, it is Islamic fundamentalists who
cause the vast majority of the problems.
Examples avaliable on request.
If you're going to go hundreds of years into the past, I already know
about that. But I do request any examples you have that pertain to the
21st century.
I wrote:
Some cultures, in my opinion, are superior to others.
Especially the white man's eh,.?
You know, the US is called the giant melting pot. We have all races
and all cultures represented here. We may not be perfect over here,
but we're all doing a pretty good job of getting along with each other
these days. Is there another society in the world where so many
different cultures co-exist as *one* society?
Weeell.. I don't think I've been to especially representative areas of the
States (just San Francisco, Northen California coast and Las Vegas so far)
but I must admit it actually sturkc me as MORE segregated and ghetto-ised
than e.g. London, Birmingham in terms of race and income. SF and Vegas
struck me as being several parallel societies co-existing rather than one.
In widely different parts of the US, some cultures have insulated
themselves into their own little communities. There are also other
areas where all the different races and cultures intermingle. For
instance, where I go grocery shopping I see every race represented.
I've been in parts of the world where I stood out as a curiosity --
but someone from one of those parts of the world could walk through my
neighborhood and no one would even look twice at them.
I wrote:
I can readily accept that you believe an atheist culture is
superior to a relgious culture.
*shrug* I don't. especially. I believe government should be secular,
that's
about it.
That's the way the founders of the US Constitution set it up. It's one
of the reasons all the different cultures in the US are able to
co-exist.
I believe religion can be a very positive influence on culture, as I
pointed
out in my last post.
Can you accept that I believe a
relgious culture is superior to an atheist culture?
I *believe* a society that based its moral code on Christianity would
probably be fairly pleasant as long as there were no penalties for not
being Christian. Sounds like a socialist Utopuia, in fact.
Actually, it sounds like the US.
I'm sure many countries could lay claim to it sounding like them.
As I said above, I think a society modelled on the best (i.e.
non-discriminatory) aspects of Christianity or Islam would probably be a
pleasant place to live.
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years
"Beacon of freedom" to its inhabitants perhaps, the rest of the world's
mileage has varied (which is not to deny the precious contributins of the US
during WWII, but please don't make out you always get it right or act in the
best interests of anyone other than yourselves. In other words, you're just
like the rest of us.)
I said we're not perfect -- and I know a lot of mistakes have been
made historically. I do think our involvement in Korea was a good
thing, especially when you compare the lives of South Koreans to those
of North Koreans. And I also believe our involvement in Kosovo was
good ... just what was our great benefit in that?
(with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
It alwas made me chuckle when Rumsfeld (or was it Cheney? All the same to me
really) pissed and moaned about "Old Europe" in reference to Germany - a
state which post dates the US by at least a century!
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa.
;-)
I enjoy reading most posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way
up there at the top
of my favorites list.
"Can't we all just get along?"
With all the different races and cultures we have co-existing over
here, it's amazing to me that we don't have far more problems than the
occasional ones we do have -- especially when I look at other parts of
the world with guys like Milosevic and the leaders of the government
of Sudan.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 03:16:44 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411232320.7f1ca1d2@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cnut3l$nr9$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or at
least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though.
But the reality of today's world, it is Islamic fundamentalists who
cause the vast majority of the problems.
Well, you're confining it to a four year period which is pretty selectivem
but OK.
If you're going to go hundreds of years into the past, I already know
about that. But I do request any examples you have that pertain to the
21st century.
Oh there's plenty - continuing violence in Northern Ireland, the murderous
rampages of Christian terrorists in Uganda
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3514473.stm).
In widely different parts of the US, some cultures have insulated
themselves into their own little communities. There are also other
areas where all the different races and cultures intermingle. For
instance, where I go grocery shopping I see every race represented.
I've been in parts of the world where I stood out as a curiosity --
but someone from one of those parts of the world could walk through my
neighborhood and no one would even look twice at them.
So it's pretty much liek Britain or any (Western) European country then,
really? Just with a lot more beggars..
"Beacon of freedom" to its inhabitants perhaps, the rest of the world's
mileage has varied (which is not to deny the precious contributins of
the US
during WWII, but please don't make out you always get it right or act in
the
best interests of anyone other than yourselves. In other words, you're
just
like the rest of us.)
I said we're not perfect -- and I know a lot of mistakes have been
made historically. I do think our involvement in Korea was a good
thing, especially when you compare the lives of South Koreans to those
of North Koreans.
Well, Korea was a UN operation. Please don't arrogantly disregard the
thousands of Commonwealth, Birtish and European lives lost there, if you
don't mind.
And I also believe our involvement in Kosovo was
good
Would havve been rather better if you hadn't TOTALLY defied the advice and
requests of yuoe NATO allies and armed up teh KLA, but never mind..
... just what was our great benefit in that?
What was Britain/France's great benefit in declaring war on Hitler when he
invaded Poland?
With all the different races and cultures we have co-existing over
here, it's amazing to me that we don't have far more problems than the
occasional ones we do have
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% "minority" population and there has
NEVER been anything comparable to the US race riots of the 60's or 90's..
same thing with Britain.
-- especially when I look at other parts of
the world with guys like Milosevic
The only parallel I can think of with FRY is if Palestine and Israel were
united under a dictator for so long they forgot their differences due to
shared hatred of the regime. Then you removed that regime...
Milosevic, while an utter *****, is merely the embodiment of the hatred
that has fetsered in an artifical republic for decades. He didn't exist in a
vacuum..
and the leaders of the government
of Sudan.
It is hardly surprising that a country with massive natural resources and no
population pressure like the US is more stable than a desert wasteland where
pretty much everyone is living hand to mouth with starvation hanging over
them..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
25 Nov 2004 01:00:42 AM |
|
|
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<co1jas$5f2$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411232320.7f1ca1d2@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cnut3l$nr9$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or at
least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though.
But the reality of today's world, it is Islamic fundamentalists who
cause the vast majority of the problems.
Well, you're confining it to a four year period which is pretty selectivem
but OK.
Actually the US was under Islamic fundamentalist terrorist attacks on
a regular basis going back to the Carter presidency. The first World
Trade Center bombing in 1993 (the first real attack on our homeland)
should have been our wake up call -- unfortunately, it wasn't. We even
took in stride the attacks on two US Embassies and the USS Cole before
9/11 finally forced us to acknowledge what had been ongoing for more
than 20 years.
If you're going to go hundreds of years into the past, I already know
about that. But I do request any examples you have that pertain to the
21st century.
Oh there's plenty - continuing violence in Northern Ireland, the murderous
rampages of Christian terrorists in Uganda
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3514473.stm).
I thought President Clinton had presided over a peace agreement in
Northern Ireland. It certainly isn't happening on the scale it was
years ago. As for Uganda, your example of "Christian terrorists" is
flawed -- especially when you take into consideration the LRA is
backed by the Islamic government of Sudan -- and the majority of the
LRA's victims ARE Christians.
Human Rights Watch
"Crises in Sudan and Northern Uganda"
[excerpt] Northern Uganda And Sudan's Support For The Lord's
Resistance Army
The Sudan government is responsible for terrible abuses of Ugandan
children through its support for the LRA, which kidnaps Ugandan
children and takes them to its base camps inside government-controlled
Sudan.
Sudan's support for the LRA is a principal source of external support
for the LRA. The evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch and other
independent sources clearly establishes the extent of Sudanese support
for and collaboration with the LRA. The Sudanese government's denial
that it supports and has long supported the LRA is simply not credible
in light of consistent evidence to the contrary. [end excerpt]
http://hrw.org/campaigns/sudan98/testim/house-07.htm
In widely different parts of the US, some cultures have insulated
themselves into their own little communities. There are also other
areas where all the different races and cultures intermingle. For
instance, where I go grocery shopping I see every race represented.
I've been in parts of the world where I stood out as a curiosity --
but someone from one of those parts of the world could walk through my
neighborhood and no one would even look twice at them.
So it's pretty much liek Britain or any (Western) European country then,
really? Just with a lot more beggars..
Not in my neighborhood ... but then you did visit the two most unusual
cities in the US (I am quite familiar with both). San Francisco used
to pay homeless people to keep them from begging -- but all that did
was attract more and more homeless people to the city, who begged
anyway to supplement their income from the city. Thankfully the city
has stopped paying homeless people to come to San Francisco, but I'm
sure multitudes of beggars still hang around there. As for Las Vegas
-- well, Las Vegas is known for creating beggars out of gambling
losers who came to town with visions of riches as they gambled away
the last of their money. By the way, both cities voted for John Kerry.
What you may have missed seeing in both cities are the surrounding
residential neighborhoods ... those suburban communities are not very
different from other residential neighborhoods in the US.
"Beacon of freedom" to its inhabitants perhaps, the rest of the world's
mileage has varied (which is not to deny the precious contributins of
the US
during WWII, but please don't make out you always get it right or act in
the
best interests of anyone other than yourselves. In other words, you're
just
like the rest of us.)
I said we're not perfect -- and I know a lot of mistakes have been
made historically. I do think our involvement in Korea was a good
thing, especially when you compare the lives of South Koreans to those
of North Koreans.
Well, Korea was a UN operation. Please don't arrogantly disregard the
thousands of Commonwealth, Birtish and European lives lost there, if you
don't mind.
That was not my intent whatsoever -- I honor the sacrifices made by
all who were involved in past and present conflicts. I specifically
mentioned US "involvement" in Korea because another poster in this
thread made a disparaging remark about the role of the US in Korea.
And I also believe our involvement in Kosovo was
good
Would havve been rather better if you hadn't TOTALLY defied the advice and
requests of yuoe NATO allies and armed up teh KLA, but never mind..
... just what was our great benefit in that?
What was Britain/France's great benefit in declaring war on Hitler when he
invaded Poland?
They were in immediate danger.
With all the different races and cultures we have co-existing over
here, it's amazing to me that we don't have far more problems than the
occasional ones we do have
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% "minority" population and there has
NEVER been anything comparable to the US race riots of the 60's or 90's..
same thing with Britain.
The 90's riots are not even comparable to the 60's riots. The 90's
riots looked far larger on television than they were in reality. Most
of the people in South Los Angeles were hiding in their homes, hoping
the relatively small number of rioters would stay on the main streets
and leave the residential neighborhoods alone. And for the most part,
that's what happened.
-- especially when I look at other parts of
the world with guys like Milosevic
The only parallel I can think of with FRY is if Palestine and Israel were
united under a dictator for so long they forgot their differences due to
shared hatred of the regime. Then you removed that regime...
Milosevic, while an utter *****, is merely the embodiment of the hatred
that has fetsered in an artifical republic for decades. He didn't exist in a
vacuum..
I know ... unfortunately, he felt compelled to repay the Muslim
population for their cooperation with Hitler's Mufti during WWII.
That's the place where good ol' Mufti recruited Muslims to create a
division of SS troops for Hitler.
and the leaders of the government
of Sudan.
It is hardly surprising that a country with massive natural resources and no
population pressure like the US is more stable than a desert wasteland where
pretty much everyone is living hand to mouth with starvation hanging over
them..
For the past 20 years, those conditions were especially imposed on the
population of Southern Sudan by the Islamic government of Northern
Sudan.
.
|
|
|
| User: "tw" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
25 Nov 2004 02:15:50 AM |
|
|
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411242300.4c100f99@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<co1jas$5f2$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411232320.7f1ca1d2@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cnut3l$nr9$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or
at
least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though.
But the reality of today's world, it is Islamic fundamentalists who
cause the vast majority of the problems.
Well, you're confining it to a four year period which is pretty
selectivem
but OK.
Actually the US was under Islamic fundamentalist terrorist attacks on
a regular basis going back to the Carter presidency.
Really? I can't say I recall the US mainland taking any casualties pre the
first WTC attack.
The first World
Trade Center bombing in 1993 (the first real attack on our homeland)
should have been our wake up call -- unfortunately, it wasn't. We even
took in stride the attacks on two US Embassies and the USS Cole before
9/11 finally forced us to acknowledge what had been ongoing for more
than 20 years.
Foreign extremists funding attacks on your homeland? We had that from the
IRA for at least double that length of time..
If you're going to go hundreds of years into the past, I already know
about that. But I do request any examples you have that pertain to the
21st century.
Oh there's plenty - continuing violence in Northern Ireland, the
murderous
rampages of Christian terrorists in Uganda
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3514473.stm).
I thought President Clinton had presided over a peace agreement in
Northern Ireland.
He did.
It certainly isn't happening on the scale it was
years ago.
I doubt that is much comfort to the peopel who still get caught up in it.
As for Uganda, your example of "Christian terrorists" is
flawed -- especially when you take into consideration the LRA is
backed by the Islamic government of Sudan
Is it? I thought that was just something the Ugandan government claimed.
-- and the majority of the
LRA's victims ARE Christians.
Again, largely irrelevant - the LRA are led by a self-proclaimed Christian
funddamentalist who was said that he wants to rule Uganda according to the
Biblical Ten Commandments
Human Rights Watch
"Crises in Sudan and Northern Uganda"
[excerpt] Northern Uganda And Sudan's Support For The Lord's
Resistance Army
The Sudan government is responsible for terrible abuses of Ugandan
children through its support for the LRA, which kidnaps Ugandan
children and takes them to its base camps inside government-controlled
Sudan.
Sudan's support for the LRA is a principal source of external support
for the LRA. The evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch and other
independent sources clearly establishes the extent of Sudanese support
for and collaboration with the LRA. The Sudanese government's denial
that it supports and has long supported the LRA is simply not credible
in light of consistent evidence to the contrary. [end excerpt]
http://hrw.org/campaigns/sudan98/testim/house-07.htm
See above. So the sudanese are sonsoring Christian killers in Uganda, so
what? Remember the US sponsoring Islamic killers in Afghanistan? It's a
complex business..
In widely different parts of the US, some cultures have insulated
themselves into their own little communities. There are also other
areas where all the different races and cultures intermingle. For
instance, where I go grocery shopping I see every race represented.
I've been in parts of the world where I stood out as a curiosity --
but someone from one of those parts of the world could walk through my
neighborhood and no one would even look twice at them.
So it's pretty much liek Britain or any (Western) European country then,
really? Just with a lot more beggars..
Not in my neighborhood ... but then you did visit the two most unusual
cities in the US (I am quite familiar with both).
As I said, I didn't think my trip was representatíve.
San Francisco used
to pay homeless people to keep them from begging -- but all that did
was attract more and more homeless people to the city, who begged
anyway to supplement their income from the city. Thankfully the city
has stopped paying homeless people to come to San Francisco, but I'm
sure multitudes of beggars still hang around there. As for Las Vegas
-- well, Las Vegas is known for creating beggars out of gambling
losers who came to town with visions of riches as they gambled away
the last of their money.
By the way, both cities voted for John Kerry.
What on earth would that have to do with this discussion?
What you may have missed seeing in both cities are the surrounding
residential neighborhoods ... those suburban communities are not very
different from other residential neighborhoods in the US.
I did see a few residential neighbourhoods - they seemed quite segregated to
me e.g. you tended to see all white people in one, black in another, asians
in a third etc. Northern california seemed almost exclusively white (and
surprisingly "redneck" )
"Beacon of freedom" to its inhabitants perhaps, the rest of the
world's
mileage has varied (which is not to deny the precious contributins
of
the US
during WWII, but please don't make out you always get it right or
act in
the
best interests of anyone other than yourselves. In other words,
you're
just
like the rest of us.)
I said we're not perfect -- and I know a lot of mistakes have been
made historically. I do think our involvement in Korea was a good
thing, especially when you compare the lives of South Koreans to those
of North Koreans.
Well, Korea was a UN operation. Please don't arrogantly disregard the
thousands of Commonwealth, Birtish and European lives lost there, if you
don't mind.
That was not my intent whatsoever -- I honor the sacrifices made by
all who were involved in past and present conflicts. I specifically
mentioned US "involvement" in Korea because another poster in this
thread made a disparaging remark about the role of the US in Korea.
I see, I was only reading your and my posts, I missed that.
And I also believe our involvement in Kosovo was
good
Would havve been rather better if you hadn't TOTALLY defied the advice
and
requests of yuoe NATO allies and armed up teh KLA, but never mind..
... just what was our great benefit in that?
What was Britain/France's great benefit in declaring war on Hitler when
he
invaded Poland?
They were in immediate danger.
So were you lot, but it took you three years to see it..
With all the different races and cultures we have co-existing over
here, it's amazing to me that we don't have far more problems than the
occasional ones we do have
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% "minority" population and there
has
NEVER been anything comparable to the US race riots of the 60's or
90's..
same thing with Britain.
The 90's riots are not even comparable to the 60's riots. The 90's
riots looked far larger on television than they were in reality.
If you say so.. How many fatalities again, though?
Most of the people in South Los Angeles were hiding in their homes, hoping
the relatively small number of rioters would stay on the main streets
and leave the residential neighborhoods alone. And for the most part,
that's what happened.
As I said, nothing comparable has happened in the UK or Sweden.
-- especially when I look at other parts of
the world with guys like Milosevic
The only parallel I can think of with FRY is if Palestine and Israel
were
united under a dictator for so long they forgot their differences due to
shared hatred of the regime. Then you removed that regime...
Milosevic, while an utter *****, is merely the embodiment of the
hatred
that has fetsered in an artifical republic for decades. He didn't exist
in a
vacuum..
I know ... unfortunately, he felt compelled to repay the Muslim
population for their cooperation with Hitler's Mufti during WWII.
Oh Cliff, here we go again...
That's the place where good ol' Mufti recruited Muslims to create a
division of SS troops for Hitler.
Mm Hmm, whereas he managed to recruit a while country full of good old
lutheran boys (i.e. all of Germany) and quite a few from nearby Lutheran
lands . Of course, Hitler's anti-semitism was the end of a long
Christian/Catholic tradition of persecution , it didn't just spring out of
nowhere. Whiel I don't necessarily agree wit everythingon this page
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm there's some nice pics of
various catholic luminaries hangin' with Hitler. When you look at the
Christian world's contribution to anti-semitism, the rise of Hitler and teh
holocaust, the muslim involvement in it really does pale into
insignificance. there was probably a greater proportion of Americans in the
nazi party than muslims..how many copies of Mein Kampf are sold a year in
the US again?
and the leaders of the government
of Sudan.
It is hardly surprising that a country with massive natural resources
and no
population pressure like the US is more stable than a desert wasteland
where
pretty much everyone is living hand to mouth with starvation hanging
over
them..
For the past 20 years, those conditions were especially imposed on the
population of Southern Sudan by the Islamic government of Northern
Sudan.
Really? The government decided the geographical location and topography of
the Sudan? What devilishly clever fellows these Islamic chaps are!
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
28 Nov 2004 08:46:06 AM |
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tw"
wrote:
Really? I can't say I recall the US >mainland taking any casualties pre the
first WTC attack.
Six dead, 1,000 injured, and we got very lucky.
Tony
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
29 Nov 2004 04:30:48 AM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128094606.06096.00000839@mb-m21.aol.com...
tw"
wrote:
Really? I can't say I recall the US >mainland taking any casualties pre
the
first WTC attack.
Six dead, 1,000 injured, and we got very lucky.
Really? What attack was that then?
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| User: "R. Foreman" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
29 Nov 2004 06:17:31 AM |
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"tw" <> Spat the Words
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128094606.06096.00000839@mb-m21.aol.com...
tw"
wrote:
Really? I can't say I recall the US >mainland taking any casualties pre
the
first WTC attack.
Six dead, 1,000 injured, and we got very lucky.
Really? What attack was that then?
1993, the first attack on the WTC, a bunch of islamic yaahoos
blew up a van filled with explosives under one of the WTC
towers. The towers didn't fall but a few people died.
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
29 Nov 2004 06:43:11 AM |
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"R. Foreman" <eidpers@anti-spam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95B035D515581rrfkwrantispamattbic@204.127.199.17...
"tw" < > Spat the Words
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128094606.06096.00000839@mb-m21.aol.com...
tw"
wrote:
Really? I can't say I recall the US >mainland taking any casualties
pre
the
first WTC attack.
Six dead, 1,000 injured, and we got very lucky.
Really? What attack was that then?
1993, the first attack on the WTC, a bunch of islamic yaahoos
blew up a van filled with explosives under one of the WTC
towers. The towers didn't fall but a few people died.
I am aware of that, hence my preceding statement "I can't say I recall the
US Mainland taking any casualties pre the first WTC attack".
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
29 Nov 2004 06:57:16 PM |
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In article <coethl$cln$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>, "tw" <> wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128094606.06096.00000839@mb-m21.aol.com...
tw"
wrote:
Really? I can't say I recall the US >mainland taking any casualties pre
the
first WTC attack.
Six dead, 1,000 injured, and we got very lucky.
Really? What attack was that then?
Probably the first bombing of the WTC (1993, I think). A car bomb in the
parking garage.
Woods
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| User: "bollogs" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
25 Nov 2004 04:21:33 AM |
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(Steven Douglas) wrote in message news:<a2b35e99.0411242300.4c100f99@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:<co1jas$5f2$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411232320.7f1ca1d2@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cnut3l$nr9$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or at
least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though.
But the reality of today's world, it is Islamic fundamentalists who
cause the vast majority of the problems.
Well, you're confining it to a four year period which is pretty selectivem
but OK.
Actually the US was under Islamic fundamentalist terrorist attacks on
a regular basis going back to the Carter presidency. The first World
Trade Center bombing in 1993 (the first real attack on our homeland)
"the first real attack on our homeland" fuckin' hell...are there
really yanks who use this type of language? Melodramatic or what?
Hollywood eat your fuckin' heart out...douglas is in the room!
WH
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
28 Nov 2004 08:47:54 AM |
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bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven Douglas) wrote in message
news:<a2b35e99.0411242300.4c100f99@posting.google.com>...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<co1jas$5f2$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411232320.7f1ca1d2@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message
news:<cnut3l$nr9$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Fair enough again. I would say that such fundamentalism exists (or at
least
has the potential to exist) in ALL religion though.
But the reality of today's world, it is Islamic fundamentalists who
cause the vast majority of the problems.
Well, you're confining it to a four year period which is pretty
selectivem
but OK.
Actually the US was under Islamic fundamentalist terrorist attacks on
a regular basis going back to the Carter presidency. The first World
Trade Center bombing in 1993 (the first >>real attack on our homeland)
"the first real attack on our homeland"
Yes, Clown, that's exactly what was done by the people that you praise and
support.
fuckin' hell...are there
really yanks who use this type of >language? Melodramatic or what?
Hollywood eat your fuckin' heart >out...douglas is in the room!
Die you moronic anti-American *****, that is the best thing you could do for
this world.
Tony
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| User: "Krib" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
28 Nov 2004 01:21:22 PM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128094754.06096.00000840@mb-m21.aol.com...
Die you moronic anti-American *****, that is the best thing you could do
for
this world.
Don't you pretend to be a christian? That's hardly a christian sentiment.
--
krib
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 07:54:10 AM |
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"tw"
wrote:
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% >"minority" population and there has
NEVER been anything comparable to >the US race riots of the 60's or 90's..
same thing with Britain.
Ah but things are changing, all of Europe is seeing an increase in problems
aminly with Islamic groups.
There was a recent report about either Denmark or Sweden, where in one major
city there is a section where even Police do not go, and that Police and Fire
units that pass thru this area are often attacked.
Tony
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| User: "Tommy Atkins" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 08:06:46 AM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041124085410.11907.00000920@mb-m16.aol.com...
"tw"
wrote:
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% >"minority" population and there
has
NEVER been anything comparable to >the US race riots of the 60's or
90's..
same thing with Britain.
Ah but things are changing
Not really. Still nothing like the race riots in e.g. LA, Detroit or Chicago
has occurred anywhere in Europe.
, all of Europe is seeing an increase in problems
aminly with Islamic groups.
Holland is the only country I can think of to whom that applies right now.
Of course, seeing as your daft monkey of a president decided to usethe word
"crusade" soon after 11/9/01 it's unlikely to get better anywhere, but I can
guarantee it will get worse in teh states first.
There was a recent report about either Denmark or Sweden
The "report" was about Sweden, in fact it was about Malmö (a town I am VERY
familiar with).
, where in one major city there is a section where even Police do not go,
Which was an hilarious claim, as in the middle of that so called "no go
area" is...a police station!
and that Police and Fire
units that pass thru this area are often attacked.
The report was absolute *****, as it "quoted" a report in Swedish which
DIDN*t say any of the things the "report" claimed it did.
Discussed and debunked here >>
cie2go$2sp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se
(I predict Tony selectively snips this message to avoid having to admit he
was wrong)
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
28 Nov 2004 08:52:44 AM |
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"Tommy Atkins"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041124085410.11907.00000920@mb-m16.aol.com...
"tw"
wrote:
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% >"minority" population and there
has
NEVER been anything comparable to >the US race riots of the 60's or
90's..same thing with Britain.
Ah but things are changing
Not really. Still nothing like the race riots >in e.g. LA, Detroit or Chicago
has occurred anywhere in Europe.
Give it time Tommy, Europe is going to be swamped with attacks by Muslims.
, all of Europe is seeing an increase in >>problems mainly with Islamic
groups.
Holland is the only country I can think of >to whom that applies right now.
Give it time.
Of course, seeing as your daft monkey of a president decided to usethe word
"crusade" soon after 11/9/01 it's unlikely to get better anywhere, but I can
guarantee it will get worse in teh states >first.
Wrong, Europe is closer and a softer target, you guy will feel the brunt, which
is why you need to get off your lazy asses and join the fight while you still
can.
There was a recent report about either >>Denmark or Sweden
The "report" was about Sweden, in fact it was about Malmö (a town I am VERY
familiar with).
, where in one major city there is a >>section where even Police do not go,
Which was an hilarious claim, as in the >middle of that so called "no go
area" is...a police station!
and that Police and Fire
units that pass thru this area are often >>attacked.
The report was absolute *****, as it "quoted" a report in Swedish which
DIDN*t say any of the things the "report" >claimed it did.
Discussed and debunked here >>
cie2go$2sp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se
(I predict Tony selectively snips this message to avoid having to admit he
was wrong)
Wrong about what Tommy Boy? Are there not serious problems in Malmö with the
Islamic community?
Tony
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| User: "tw" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
29 Nov 2004 04:29:22 AM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041128095244.06096.00000841@mb-m21.aol.com...
"Tommy Atkins"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041124085410.11907.00000920@mb-m16.aol.com...
"tw"
wrote:
Well, Sweden has something liek a 10% >"minority" population and there
has
NEVER been anything comparable to >the US race riots of the 60's or
90's..same thing with Britain.
Ah but things are changing
Not really. Still nothing like the race riots >in e.g. LA, Detroit or
Chicago
has occurred anywhere in Europe.
Give it time Tommy, Europe is going to be swamped with attacks by Muslims.
Why are you trying to change the subject? we were talking about the terrible
race reations in the US.
What is your source for your assertion that Europe will be "swamped with
attacks by Muslims"? You're white-supremacist websites? Voises in your head?
Did jesus appear in a vasion after you mainlined seom steroids and swallowed
a handfull of oxycodone?
, all of Europe is seeing an increase in >>problems mainly with Islamic
groups.
Holland is the only country I can think of >to whom that applies right
now.
Give it time.`
Holland is harld being "swamped with attacks by mulsims".
Of course, seeing as your daft monkey of a president decided to usethe
word
"crusade" soon after 11/9/01 it's unlikely to get better anywhere, but I
can
guarantee it will get worse in teh states >first.
Wrong, Europe is closer and a softer target, you guy will feel the brunt,
which
is why you need to get off your lazy asses and join the fight while you
still
can.
Ah ***** you sill twat. Euoper experienced Islamic (and other) terror
long before 11/9 , we just didn't trun into a bunch of hysterical, paranoid
snivelling children over it like your lot.
There was a recent report about either >>Denmark or Sweden
The "report" was about Sweden, in fact it was about Malmö (a town I am
VERY
familiar with).
, where in one major city there is a >>section where even Police do not
go,
Which was an hilarious claim, as in the >middle of that so called "no go
area" is...a police station!
No response? I see you don't like dealing with facts.
and that Police and Fire
units that pass thru this area are often >>attacked.
The report was absolute *****, as it "quoted" a report in Swedish
which
DIDN*t say any of the things the "report" >claimed it did.
Discussed and debunked here >>
cie2go$2sp$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se
(I predict Tony selectively snips this message to avoid having to admit
he
was wrong)
Wrong about what Tommy Boy? Are there not serious problems in Malmö with
the
Islamic community?
No, not at all. Do you have any evidence that there are?
.
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| User: "bollogs" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
28 Nov 2004 03:33:24 PM |
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(TonyZ2001) wrote in message news:<20041128095244.06096.00000841@mb-m21.aol.com>...
Wrong about what Tommy Boy? Are there not serious problems in Malmö with the
Islamic community?
Tony
Where did you get this pantyboy? Is this the same source as the other
***** you've been posting, i.e. the one by some ***** at foxnews?
"Serious problems with the Islamic community" do not exist anywhere in
Sweden or anywhere else in Europe, nor the US actually apart from the
ones dreamed up by racists like you...there are some of your ilk here
too pantyboy!
What a wanker you are. If you can find a serious source to use for
your assertions then do it. Foxnews is NOT a serious source of news.
It's a SERIOUS source for Christian sectarian opinions and propaganda.
WH
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| User: "Jane" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
23 Nov 2004 09:40:24 AM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:
<cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Does your hatred for Islam stem from them "daring to share a belief
different to your own" or because you have formed a picture (based on a
minority, sadly ) of their behavuior and ethics and decided you find it
insane/threatening/dangerous?
There is a Mosque in my city that has been there for at least 25
years. For all the years I've been aware of it, I didn't really think
much about it beyond its beautiful architecture. I have interacted
with Muslims on a regular basis for many years, and my experience has
been that they're all, for the most part, wonderful and friendly
people.
I didn't know much about Islam before 9/11. I have learned a lot about
it since. It hasn't changed the way I interact with Muslims in my
community. As I said previously I judge people by the actions, not
their beliefs. I am very critical of the fundamentalist terrorists who
justify their actions based on their interpretation of teachings in
the Quran ... it's really a shame that the Quran DOES have teachings
that the terrorists are able to interpret as justification for their
murderous actions.
I wrote:
Some cultures, in my opinion, are superior to others.
Especially the white man's eh,.?
You know, the US is called the giant melting pot. We have all races
and all cultures represented here. We may not be perfect over here,
but we're all doing a pretty good job of getting along with each other
these days. Is there another society in the world where so many
different cultures co-exist as *one* society?
I wrote:
I can readily accept that you believe an atheist culture is
superior to a relgious culture.
*shrug* I don't. especially. I believe government should be secular,
that's
about it.
That's the way the founders of the US Constitution set it up. It's one
of the reasons all the different cultures in the US are able to
co-exist.
I believe religion can be a very positive influence on culture, as I
pointed
out in my last post.
Can you accept that I believe a
relgious culture is superior to an atheist culture?
I *believe* a society that based its moral code on Christianity would
probably be fairly pleasant as long as there were no penalties for not
being Christian. Sounds like a socialist Utopuia, in fact.
Actually, it sounds like the US.
As I said above, I think a society modelled on the best (i.e.
non-discriminatory) aspects of Christianity or Islam would probably be a
pleasant place to live.
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years (with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa. I enjoy reading most
posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way up there at the top
of my favorites list.
Why, thank you!!! I enjoy your posts, too. I agree that I try to treat
everyone as I would want to be treated and try not to flame anyone unless
they insult me first...even then I sometimes wish I were strong enough to
just ignore it :)!
Jane
.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 01:38:39 AM |
|
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"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message news: <ERIod.30999$Ro.990069@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:
<cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa. I enjoy reading most
posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way up there at the top
of my favorites list.
Why, thank you!!! I enjoy your posts, too. I agree that I try to treat
everyone as I would want to be treated and try not to flame anyone unless
they insult me first...even then I sometimes wish I were strong enough to
just ignore it :)!
I know, same here ... thanks again for being a voice of reason on this group.
.
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| User: "bollogs" |
|
| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
25 Nov 2004 04:31:22 AM |
|
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(Steven Douglas) wrote in message news:<a2b35e99.0411232338.645265b7@posting.google.com>...
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message news: <ERIod.30999$Ro.990069@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Steven Douglas" < > wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:
<cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa. I enjoy reading most
posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way up there at the top
of my favorites list.
Why, thank you!!! I enjoy your posts, too. I agree that I try to treat
everyone as I would want to be treated and try not to flame anyone unless
they insult me first...even then I sometimes wish I were strong enough to
just ignore it :)!
I know, same here ... thanks again for being a voice of reason on this group.
Oh get a fuckin' room you two...and discuss the fuckin' bible!
WH
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
28 Nov 2004 08:44:39 AM |
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bollogs@hotmail.com
wrote:
Oh get a fuckin' room you two...and >discuss the fuckin' bible!
WH
Got something against the Bible, eh Chris?
How's your Islamic studies going? Do you carry a compass with you so you know
which way Mecca is?
Tony
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 07:49:20 AM |
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dsteven@flashmail.com (Steven >Douglas)
wrote:
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:
<ERIod.30999$Ro.990069@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
"tw" <no@no.com> wrote in message news:
<cnscsk$eh6$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>...
Most religions are essentially socialist in nature requiring
everyone to help each other, and I can't argue with that. If it
was a taliban/puritan style fun-hating theocracy, I woudln't be so
keen. Buddhism is appealing because it teaches that all your actions
have a consequence and you are responsibel for that consequence -
the ideas of Karm and reincarnation appeal because while I may not
believe the stories, the concept that you should treat other as
you would wish to be treated is a noble one.
That was Christ's golden rule ... so I think we're doing okay since I
treat you like you treat me and vice versa. I enjoy reading most
posters on this group -- but of course Jane is way up there at the top
of my favorites list.
Why, thank you!!! I enjoy your posts, too. I agree that I try to treat
everyone as I would want to be treated and try not to flame anyone unless
they insult me first...even then I >>sometimes wish I were strong enough
to just ignore it :)!
I know, same here ... thanks again for >being a voice of reason on this group.
I'll 2nd that.
Tony
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| User: "MonsieurStat" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
23 Nov 2004 09:34:47 PM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
[snip]
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years (with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
LOL
What beacon of freedom?
That's all a MYTH propagated through a huge marketing machine the world over.
Here's a short summary of your Beacon of Freedom:
- America started out by genocidal extermination of 90% the Native American
population.
- Then there was mass enslavement of millions of kidnapped Africans.
- Followed by one of the bloodiest civil wars in human history.
- Then there was a lot of imperial adventurism resulting in mass murder of
millions upon millions of South Americans (Panama, Colombia, Haiti,
Nicaragua, Mexico, Cuba, Greneda, etc.) and as far away places such as the
Philippines and great parts of East-Asia.
- Then of course there was the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan.
And Then.... America was a real Empire, which meant it could act with
impunity, which it of course did!
- Over 200 military operations since the WWII, including fiascos such as
Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Kosovo, and more recently Afghanistan and Iraq.
- I won't even mention the hundreds of "political interventions" to
over-throw democratically elected governments to replace with puppet
governments.
Death and destruction all over the place.
Now you may be thinking to yourself there's the rantings of another
anti-American.
I may be ranting, but I am certainly not an Anti-American. I love America,
always have, and probably always will. I too was affected and still am by the
huge marketing campaigns. I also recognize the HUGE contribution of America
to the world in areas such as the Arts, Sciences, Technology, Sports...
But calling America a Beacon of Freedom is part of a mythology that is being
dispelled at an extremely fast rate.
Mr. Stats.
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| User: "Steven Douglas" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
24 Nov 2004 01:22:29 AM |
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"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<vjTod.36112$Le1.815000@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
[snip]
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years (with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
LOL
What beacon of freedom?
The one my ancestors followed when they got off the boat at Ellis
Island.
That's all a MYTH propagated through a huge marketing machine the world over.
My great-grandparents and grandparents were very happy to be here.
Here's a short summary of your Beacon of Freedom:
Yes, I am aware of the tragic historical mistakes made during the
early history of the US. Unfortunately, there is no situation on this
planet that will ever reach the level of utopia.
- America started out by genocidal extermination of 90% the Native American
population.
- Then there was mass enslavement of millions of kidnapped Africans.
- Followed by one of the bloodiest civil wars in human history.
Uh, you are aware that the Civil War effectively ENDED slavery in the
US, aren't you? And while we're on the topic, are you aware that
slavery still does exist to this very day in other parts of the world?
That's happening now, today, but you'd rather harp on something that
was ENDED in the US 140 years ago. Just wanted to make sure I know
where your place your priorities.
- Then there was a lot of imperial adventurism
[snip]
Yes, I know ... we stopped the Communists from taking over South
Korea, which has allowed South Korea to avoid the misery and suffering
of North Koreans. We made a similar effort in Vietnam, though without
the same resolve ultimately ... but by keeping South Vietnam free of
the Communists for as long as we did, it allowed the people in South
Vietnam to develop the business skills that now enable the South to
economically carry the entire country of Vietnam -- which has allowed
Vietnam to avoid becoming another North Korea.
As for Cuba -- the murderous dictator Castro is the biggest Capitalist
hypocrite walking around on the face of the earth. He has opened
stores that only accept US dollars. So when Cuban-Americans send
dollars to their family members still stuck in Cuba, those Cubans then
spend their dollars in Castro's stores -- where they buy items such as
big screen TVs, VCRs and DVD players, stereo equipment, computers,
etc. And Castro collects all those US dollars.
As for the Phillipines, yes that was adventurism. But rather than hold
on to that possession, we let go and gave them their independece.
After WWII, we had taken possession of the Japanese island of Okinawa.
We have long since returned that island to Japan.
Now you may be thinking to yourself there's the rantings of another
anti-American.
Yeah, that's exactly what you sound like. And there is no doubt we are
not perfect. But it's not really fair to compare the US to perfection
-- since perfection does not exist in this world. Isn't it more fair
to compare us to the rest of the world? Look at the slavery I
mentioned in Africa. Look at the brutal conditions some governments
force upon their people in various parts of the world. No wonder so
many people flock here ... it always amazes me how new arrivals here
SO intensely value the freedom that others who were born here simply
take for granted.
I may be ranting, but I am certainly not an Anti-American. I love America,
always have, and probably always will. I too was affected and still am by the
huge marketing campaigns. I also recognize the HUGE contribution of America
to the world in areas such as the Arts, Sciences, Technology, Sports...
And freedom.
But calling America a Beacon of Freedom is part of a mythology that is being
dispelled at an extremely fast rate.
I disagree as completely as it is possible to disagree.
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| User: "MonsieurStat" |
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| Title: Re: What do Savages look like? |
17 Dec 2004 05:18:22 PM |
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"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411232322.2d38fcd3@posting.google.com...
"MonsieurStat" <Monsieustat@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<vjTod.36112$Le1.815000@news20.bellglobal.com>...
"Steven Douglas" <dsteven@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2b35e99.0411222310.21611bc3@posting.google.com...
[snip]
If the founders of the US Constitution had been Muslims, I don't think
the US would exist as the beacon of freedom that it has been for over
200 years (with the oldest living Constitution in the world, by the
way).
LOL
What beacon of freedom?
The one my ancestors followed when they got off the boat at Ellis
Island.
That's all a MYTH propagated through a huge marketing machine the world
over.
My great-grandparents and grandparents were very happy to be here.
Here's a short summary of your Beacon of Freedom:
Yes, I am aware of the tragic historical mistakes made during the
early history of the US. Unfortunately, there is no situation on this
planet that will ever reach the level of utopia.
- America started out by genocidal extermination of 90% the Native
American
population.
- Then there was mass enslavement of millions of kidnapped Africans.
- Followed by one of the bloodiest civil wars in human history.
Uh, you are aware that the Civil War effectively ENDED slavery in the
US, aren't you? And while we're on the topic, are you aware that
slavery still does exist to this very day in other parts of the world?
That's happening now, today, but you'd rather harp on something that
was ENDED in the US 140 years ago. Just wanted to make sure I know
where your place your priorities.
Abolition of slavery was a consequence of the civil war. But the war wasn't
over slavery at all, but cession from the union that the South was seeking.
Lincoln himself didn't give a rat's ***** about slavery, although slavery was
very quickly pushed to the front because it was the main engine behind
South's economy. But you are right, US is ahead of a few places where there
is still slavery. Not a great achievement to vent about because it's far
behind most of the world in the area of EQUALITY between people regardless
of race, sex, religion or social standing.
- Then there was a lot of imperial adventurism
[snip]
Yes, I know ... we stopped the Communists from taking over South
Korea, which has allowed South Korea to avoid the misery and suffering
of North Koreans. We made a similar effort in Vietnam, though without
the same resolve ultimately ... but by keeping South Vietnam free of
the Communists for as long as we did, it allowed the people in South
Vietnam to develop the business skills that now enable the South to
economically carry the entire country of Vietnam -- which has allowed
Vietnam to avoid becoming another North Korea.
How do | | | | |
