"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.26.00.38.10.99998@tepidmail.com...

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:55:56 -0500, dreamwalker wrote:

"Marvin The Paranoid Android" <marvinparanoidandroid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159212603.529460.207080@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

When you stop to think about it, it is really outrageous that American
citizens are sitting by while their leader fights to legalize torture.
I thought this was the reasoning behind the Iraq War -- to stop torture
(after we found out Bush was only joking about finding WMD's). Where
are the protests??

America's moral compass is broken (or has been stolen by the
Anti-Christ himself). The Fouding Fathers must be rolling in their
graves.

Cheers

-- Marvie

------------------------------------------

From Dan Froomkin's column today in WaPo "Talking Torture"

What Torture Achieves

Chilean novelist and human rights activist Ariel Dorfman writes in The
Washington Post's Outlook section with the story of the first torture
victim he ever met: "He confessed to anything and everything they
wanted to drag from his hoarse, howling throat; he invented accomplices
and addresses and culprits; and then, when it became apparent that all
this was imaginary, he was subjected to further ordeals.

"There was no escape.

"That is the hideous predicament of the torture victim."

Dorfman concludes: "Can't the United States see that when we allow
someone to be tortured by our agents, it is not only the victim and the
perpetrator who are corrupted, not only the 'intelligence' that is
contaminated, but also everyone who looked away and said they did not
know, everyone who consented tacitly to that outrage so they could
sleep a little safer at night, all the citizens who did not march in
the streets by the millions to demand the resignation of whoever
suggested, even whispered, that torture is inevitable in our day and
age, that we must embrace its darkness?

Full Article Is Here --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html

Given a choice between waterboarding some guy who looks like Ron Jeremy, or having their family
blown up, most Americans vote to dunk Ron. Now go ***** yourself.

It's not a choice between one or the other. You don't get reliable
information from torturing people, so torturing will NOT prevent having
one's family blown up. What it WILL do is make U.S. soldiers fair game
for torture. So, it is more along the lines of a choice between
torturing U.S. soldiers or not, rather than between torturing detainees
and American families being blown up.

Woods

Yes, yes. We all know al Zarqawi held Article 3 and 22 in high regard. He'd never drempt of using
torture against any of our troops. And of course all troops taken by insurgents have been treated
well. You two need to get real.

So torture doesn't work? Woods, you been listening to too many late
night talk shows. Of course
torture works. It works very well. For every expert that you quote
saying it doesn't, I can find 10 that'll say it does. Torture the fucks.

Yes, yes. We all know al Zarqawi held Article 3 and 22 in high regard. He'd never drempt of using
torture against any of our troops. And of course all troops taken by insurgents have been treated
well. You two need to get real.

So torture doesn't work? Woods, you been listening to too many late night talk shows. Of course
torture works. It works very well. For every expert that you quote saying it doesn't, I can find 10
that'll say it does. Torture the fucks.

"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.26.00.38.10.99998@tepidmail.com...

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:55:56 -0500, dreamwalker wrote:

"Marvin The Paranoid Android" <marvinparanoidandroid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159212603.529460.207080@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

When you stop to think about it, it is really outrageous that American
citizens are sitting by while their leader fights to legalize torture.
I thought this was the reasoning behind the Iraq War -- to stop torture
(after we found out Bush was only joking about finding WMD's). Where
are the protests??

America's moral compass is broken (or has been stolen by the
Anti-Christ himself). The Fouding Fathers must be rolling in their
graves.

Cheers

-- Marvie

------------------------------------------

From Dan Froomkin's column today in WaPo "Talking Torture"

What Torture Achieves

Chilean novelist and human rights activist Ariel Dorfman writes in The
Washington Post's Outlook section with the story of the first torture
victim he ever met: "He confessed to anything and everything they
wanted to drag from his hoarse, howling throat; he invented accomplices
and addresses and culprits; and then, when it became apparent that all
this was imaginary, he was subjected to further ordeals.

"There was no escape.

"That is the hideous predicament of the torture victim."

Dorfman concludes: "Can't the United States see that when we allow
someone to be tortured by our agents, it is not only the victim and the
perpetrator who are corrupted, not only the 'intelligence' that is
contaminated, but also everyone who looked away and said they did not
know, everyone who consented tacitly to that outrage so they could
sleep a little safer at night, all the citizens who did not march in
the streets by the millions to demand the resignation of whoever
suggested, even whispered, that torture is inevitable in our day and
age, that we must embrace its darkness?

Full Article Is Here --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html

Given a choice between waterboarding some guy who looks like Ron Jeremy, or having their family
blown up, most Americans vote to dunk Ron. Now go ***** yourself.

It's not a choice between one or the other. You don't get reliable
information from torturing people, so torturing will NOT prevent having
one's family blown up. What it WILL do is make U.S. soldiers fair game
for torture. So, it is more along the lines of a choice between
torturing U.S. soldiers or not, rather than between torturing detainees
and American families being blown up.

Woods

Yes, yes. We all know al Zarqawi held Article 3 and 22 in high regard. He'd never drempt of using
torture against any of our troops. And of course all troops taken by insurgents have been treated
well. You two need to get real.

So torture doesn't work? Woods, you been listening to too many late night talk shows. Of course
torture works. It works very well. For every expert that you quote saying it doesn't, I can find 10
that'll say it does. Torture the fucks.

"Marvin The Paranoid Android" <marvinparanoidandroid@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:1159276669.293087.81700@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Charly the ***** wrote:

Marvin The Paranoid Android wrote:

When you stop to think about it, it is really outrageous that American
citizens are sitting by while their leader fights to legalize torture.
I thought this was the reasoning behind the Iraq War -- to stop torture
(after we found out Bush was only joking about finding WMD's). Where
are the protests??

America's moral compass is broken (or has been stolen by the
Anti-Christ himself). The Fouding Fathers must be rolling in their
graves.

Cheers

-- Marvie

Well Marv, it's like this... everyone is too busy scratching a living to
have the time
to protest. After twenty-odd years of being buried in 'free' credit
cards, everyone is
soooooo in debt that the vast bulk of their time is spent trying to keep
the Repo Man
from the door. Of course, this was part of The Corporate Plan from the
outset; get 'em
hooked on living beyond their means, then implement the End Game, and
they won't be able
to complain effectively. Wait until The Mark rolls around in the spring
of 2008, under
the guise of the mandadory biometric ID, and watch all those faithful
Fundies line up
for it.

Charly

There's always the weekends to do a protest or two -- sure the kids
have ballet and hockey practice, and the dog ***** has to be cleaned up
out back, and the minivan's due for maintenance, and your Mother-In-Law
insists you come for dinner on Sunday, and the laundry's spilling over
the top of the hamper, and there's groceries -- but at some point you
have to get your priorities straight.

You didn't mention doing the dishes. You must have a dishwasher....

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:17:49 -0700, Marvin The Paranoid Android wrote:

Charly the ***** wrote:

Marvin The Paranoid Android wrote:

When you stop to think about it, it is really outrageous that
American citizens are sitting by while their leader fights to
legalize torture. I thought this was the reasoning behind the Iraq
War -- to stop torture (after we found out Bush was only joking
about finding WMD's). Where are the protests??

America's moral compass is broken (or has been stolen by the
Anti-Christ himself). The Fouding Fathers must be rolling in their
graves.

Cheers

-- Marvie

Well Marv, it's like this... everyone is too busy scratching a living
to have the time to protest. After twenty-odd years of being buried in
'free' credit cards, everyone is soooooo in debt that the vast bulk of
their time is spent trying to keep the Repo Man from the door. Of
course, this was part of The Corporate Plan from the outset; get 'em
hooked on living beyond their means, then implement the End Game, and
they won't be able to complain effectively. Wait until The Mark rolls
around in the spring of 2008, under the guise of the mandadory
biometric ID, and watch all those faithful Fundies line up for it.

Charly

There's always the weekends to do a protest or two -- sure the kids
have ballet and hockey practice, and the dog ***** has to be cleaned up
out back, and the minivan's due for maintenance, and your Mother-In-Law
insists you come for dinner on Sunday, and the laundry's spilling over
the top of the hamper, and there's groceries -- but at some point you
have to get your priorities straight.

Why have American's not taken this Admininstration to task over
*unnecessary* warrantless wiretapping, torture, secret prisons and
indefinite detainment with no garuantee of ever having a fair trial??
George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' comes to mind -- you've finally
championed over the Soviet Union and now your government adopts their
infamous policies.

Is nobody listening?? I can't believe that it's a money issue -- I have
to believe people are not getting the significance of this. The
Democrats or someone has to stand up and frame these issues properly so
a majority of people finally 'get it'.

Don't hold your breath on that, Marvin. The Democrats are about as
organized as third graders organizing a bottle drive. All they're doing
is scrambling for more Conservative votes, they aren't planning anything
beyond the next electuion (be it primariers, whatever). It's really
sickening.

Here's to hoping for a change this November.

Amen.

Woods

Cheers!

-- Marvie