Why do people want prophecies?

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Topic:	Science > Prophecies-Of-Nostradamus
User:	"FourCell"
Date:	11 Jun 2005 09:03:03 AM
Object:	Why do people want prophecies?

People don' really want to know the future. I'm not
talking about who is going to win the lottery.
Prophets, the ones that don't hide themselves in one
way or another, invariably tell the truth, and those
with an insatiable lust for power, don't want the masses
to know the truth.
Jesus, who's natural curiosity led him to hop a trading dhow
as a young man, to India, and up the Ganges. He practiced his
carpentry skills, in a Tibetan Buddhist temple, and went from
novice to master. Buddhism taught him logic the natural laws
of cause and effect, the basis for everything he tried to
teach when he returned home, hoping to bring his knowledge
to a dark, brutal world, occupied by a brutal, foreign
empire. Not much has changed in 2,000 years. The powers
that be didn't like what he had to say. He wanted to
liberate their minds, and the powers that be thrive on
obedience, ignorance and fear. Not much has changed.
If Jesus were to arrive on the scene today for the first
time, he wouldn't be throwing the money changers out of the
Tempple on the Sabbath. There are plenty of money changers
on cable and satellite changing money every Sunday for
a dose of fear and pseudo-Jesus. No room for liberation
and free-thinking in todays dark and violent world, any
more than then. Just obey, and send that $20 check in to
"Praise The Lord TV Ministry", when the program's over.
Nostradamus was smart - he hid in plain sight, knowing that
the powers that be wouldn't catch on. From reading this
group, I think most others never caught on either.
John Lennon was executed by the powers that be, because
he was about to spend $100 million of his own money to
launch a series of publications, revealing documents
that connected Bush Sr. and the rest of the Temple Guards,
to cocaine smuggling into the US, making $ billions.
Seems the powers that be didn't like was John was going
to tell the world.
Another In the same general timeframe, John, Balushi
was going to have a movie made, called "Moon Over Miami",
again, connecting Bush, et. al. to the massive cocaine
smuggling operations being conducted under cover of the
so-called Contra program (lots of military personnel,
planes, operatives). Seems they didn't dig the movie
idea, because the powers that be contracted a Mob
hit-woman from Montreal, to seduce and jab John (many
times) with a very nasty cocktail. The masses never
got the message. What media knew the truth kept their
mouths shut, having got the message what happens to those
who talk to much.
Gary Webb, the one who broke the Bush Iran-Contra
Cocaine smuggling operations into the mainstream
press, escaped the needle and the bullet for while.
Then, when he an another author were about to come out
with a book in 1995, linking the Bush family to $billions
in Afghan heroin trade, seems the powers that be didn't
dig the message. The other author decided to get 'suicided'.
Then, shortly after, Gary Webb decided to 'shoot himself in the
mouth twice with a .38 cal revolver. Must have been very
despondent, to pull that trigger twice while barrel was
pointed at his face. A reported standing with me in Kuwait,
under a shed, waiting for a C-130 into Iraq, confided that
many in the trade knew Webb was offed, and took it as
a warning to keep their mouths shut.
Not much has changed after 2,000 years.
If Jesus were to come here for the first time, do you
really think he'd stand behind any country or leaders
who's hallmark is the installation of leaders like
Saddam (1960), and 24 other Fascist dictators?
Do you think Jesus would miss the fact that the US
sold nuclear technology parts, biochemical warfare
agents and equipment for mass-producing chemical
weapons, as late as 1988? Do you think Jesus would not
notice that the US pushed Iraq into going to War against
Iran, at a cost of 1 million on each side, using weapons
and technologies sold by the US, in order to drag the
war out as long as possible?
If Jesus were to step off that boat from India today,
he'd likely be labeled a Middle-Eastern terrorist,
because he wouldn't hold any punches. The powers that
be don't like to hear the truth now, any more than they
did then. He might even end up in Guantanamo Bay in
an orange jumpsuit, held without formal charges or
trial or access to attorney, on "suspicion".
If this were 1905, not 2005, and Jesus were to tell you that
within 100 years, 100 million people would be dead from
warfare, most of it pointless empire building, and from
wars started on lies and agent-provocateurs, like OBL.
It's 2005. Do you REALLY want to know where and when, the
thing you refer to as WWIII will start? Are you sure?
Do you really want to know how many will die and who may
"win." would you want to know who started it, and based on
which lie?
If the truth were told, the powers that be wouldn't like
what was said about them. Not much has changed in 2,000
years. Do you really want to know what technologies
will be used (two of which you've never heard of)?
Would you want to know who developed those technologies
and for which government? Would you want to hear, that
one of the technologies could have been used as a universal
treatment for all cancers, but was withheld for use as a
weapon, out of fear another power might do the same?
Are you sure you want to hear what a "Prophet" says, or
are you just looking for entertainment?
.

User: "Tugboat Captain"
Title: Bla bla bla!	11 Jun 2005 09:32:42 AM

User: ""
Title: Re: Bla bla bla!	11 Jun 2005 10:15:42 AM

Blah blah blah, WMD, blah blah blah, SADDAM HUSSEIN, blah blah blah,
GEORGE W BUSH, blah blah blah, RACISM, blah blah blah, IRAQ, blah blah
blah, WORLD NUT DAILY, blah blah blah, LIBERALS, blah blah blah,
CONSERVATIVES, blah blah blah, AMERICA, blah blah blah, etc, etc..
---
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Bla bla bla!	12 Jun 2005 01:05:06 PM

Message-ID: <d8ev70$tpm$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>

Ok, which freak from the UK wants to impersonate me now?
Tony
.

User: "The Master"
Title: Re: Bla bla bla!	12 Jun 2005 01:23:02 PM

wrote:

Message-ID: <d8ev70$tpm$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>

Blah blah blah ?

Tony

I'm sure you will figure it out eventually!
The Master
.

User: "John Smith"
Title: Re: Bla bla bla!	13 Jun 2005 12:25:25 AM

No, its not me Tony (in-case you where wondering). But it sure is GREAT to see the
shoe shift to the other foot, if you know what I mean !!!
Now it is your turn to track down the fraud. ;-)
:-(]
<itwill@happen.com> wrote in message
news:1118599504.9cef9f8ad2a434029ea76223b9391046@teranews...

Message-ID: <d8ev70$tpm$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>

Ok, which freak from the UK wants to impersonate me now?

Tony

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 06:01:16 PM

4-Brain Cells wrote:

Never has a bigger lie been told.
Tony
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 05:12:48 AM

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB
.

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 05:28:56 AM

wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

Long but worth reading...
http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/ecumensm.htm
=>
A NEW ECUMENISM BASED UPON
REEXAMINATION OF THE "LOST YEARS" EVIDENCE
James W. Deardorff
Oregon State University
September, 1994
PRECIS
The "lost years" evidence due to Notovitch in 1894 of Jesus being
in India during his youth, along with its debunkings, are reexamined and
the latter are found not to have been scholarly in any sense. Later
evidence fully confirming Notovitch's find is presented. The
implications that Jesus taught reincarnation and karma, not
resurrection, are summarized and found entirely plausible. The
ramifications this has for ecumenism with respect to the Eastern
religions cannot be overstated, though for Christianity they remain
unacceptable.
Introduction
I. The Primary "Lost" Years Evidence
II. The Later Evidence
III. The Reincarnation Question
IV. Did the Source of the Gospels Contain Teachings on Reincarnation?
IV.(a) Gospel Evidence that Jesus Taught Reincarnation
IV.(b) Matthean Clues Suggestive of Karma
V. Implications for Judeo-Christianity
Endnotes
Introduction
It was in 1894 that news first reached the Western world of Buddhist
manuscripts existing in Tibet indicating that the "lost years" of Jesus'
youth had been spent in India. The alleged discoverer was Nicholas
Notovitch, Russian journalist and war correspondent, who journeyed
through Kashmir and Ladakh (Little Tibet) and then wrote a book about
his findings, including a translation into French of the verses in
Tibetan about Isa (or Issa) existing in the library of Himis monastery
near Leh.1 The find was swiftly discredited by the noted Orientalist Max
M�ller and by one other, though whether or not their responses were
credible and fair form part of the subject of the present study.2 We
shall come to find that M�ller's only relevant objections were
satisfactorily answered by Notovitch in an extended preface to the
English translation of his book in 1895,3 and that his answers were
ignored by later expositors who continued to debunk him.
Upon examining the responses to Notovitch's presentation, one
unfortunately finds that theological commitment played a dominant role
in causing the conclusion they reached to be the only one that the
Christian faith could allow -- that Notovitch was either duped by a
Buddhist lama or was a deceiver and charlatan.4 Until that time,
however, Notovitch had enjoyed a favorable reputation, and his decision
to proceed and publish his findings, which was not made hastily, seems
to have been based upon positive ecumenical feelings. Since theological
commitment ought not to be allowed to play a negative role within either
scholasticism or ecumenical efforts, a reexamination of this matter is
long overdue, along with some discussion of the ecumenical implications
for both Christianity and New Testament scholarship.
The present paper is motivated also by the fact that, unknown to Western
scholasticism, a complete and independent verification of Notovitch's
findings occurred some thirty years after Notovitch's Asian trek.
Indirect verifications have occurred more recently.
I. The Primary "Lost" Years Evidence
The "lost" years refer to the years of Jesus' youth from an age of about
12 until his Palestinian ministry commenced. That these years were spent
in India is a rather well known story, as it was debunked, following
M�ller, by Goodspeed in 1931 and again by Beskow in 1983.5 To review the
matter briefly, an unusual circumstance on his travels in 1887 allowed
Notovitch the opportunity to gain the attention and confidence of the
head lama within the Buddhist monastery at Himis. He had earlier on his
Asian travels heard that some verses about Isa existed within that
monastery, but he was unable to persuade the lama to show them to him
and his translator. Soon after departing, however, his horse stumbled,
pitching him to the ground and fracturing his leg. He requested his
travel party to take him back to the monastery for aid, and there during
a stay of several days and with his leg in a splint he gained the
confidence of the chief lama who read the Isa verses, in Tibetan, to him
and his translator, who apparently wrote them down in French.6 He was
told that their earlier source had been written in Pali.
The verses describe the young Jesus as having traveled to India in order
to spend many years studying under the yogic masters there, and they
depict in general terms some experiences he had along the way, as well
as a Buddhist or Hindu view of the crucifixion after he had returned to
the Holy Land. Merchants from Israel, apparently of Indian or Tibetan
origin, later returned to India to bring news of the crucifixion to one
or more there who had known Jesus during the "lost years."7 After
acquiring this evidence, Notovitch painfully made his way back, in a
litter carried by his travel party, via Kashmir to Bombay where he could
receive treatment for his broken leg.
An impartial assessment of M�ller's paper reveals that, aside from a
distressing number of points of witty sarcasm and irrelevancy, his
treatment contained three potentially valid points. One was just how
news of Jesus' crucifixion could have been brought, by Jewish merchants
from Israel, to the attention of one or more Brahmans and Buddhists
Jesus had known during the "lost" years of his youth, considering how
great is the area of India. Notovitch responded to this problem in the
extensive preface to his 1895 book by pointing out that the merchants in
question had been indigenous to India or Tibet, and not Jewish.8 There
are then any number of possible answers to M�ller's question, such as
the young Jesus having befriended one or more Indians who were traveling
with him on the Silk Road from India back to Palestine, and a few years
later one or more of them either having informed returning Indian
merchants of Jesus' crucifixion and who in India should know about it,
or having returned themselves to do so. M�ller had assumed without
justification that "merchants from Israel" meant Jewish merchants.
M�ller's second potentially relevant point was that these writings about
Jesus should in his opinion have been listed within a Tibetan or
Buddhist catalog known to Western scholars, or within one of their
sacred sets of books: the Kandjur or the Tandjur.9 However, Notovitch
had learned from the head lama at Himis that there was over an order of
magnitude more manuscripts or books just within a monastery at Lhasa
than M�ller had acknowledged were listed in all the aforementioned
sources, so the odds were very slim that the volume or two in question
at the Himis monastery would have been listed. Besides, if they had been
so listed, the existence of the "lost years" verses would not then have
come as any surprise to religious scholars in the West.10 In addition,
there is the practical certainty that such verses had long been
recognized by knowledgeable lamas as sensitive material not to be
divulged to unsympathetic or intolerant Westerners, lest it cause future
problems for the monastery in question.
M�ller's third potentially relevant point was that he had heard that
some missionaries in Tibet had claimed that no one by the name of
Notovitch had ever visited the monastery.11 The evidence he presented on
this consisted of a letter from an English traveler through Leh
expressing this belief while at the same time severely denouncing the
lamas. However, another critic to be discussed soon, a Professor J.
Archibald Douglas, had to acknowledge evidence that Notovitch had indeed
been to Leh at least,12 and in responding to M�ller, Notovitch mentioned
names of those who could attest to his having traveled there.13 And
Notovitch's description of both the exterior and interior of the Himis
monastery, like those of his travel experiences themselves, are
sufficiently detailed without appearing in any way contrived as to
dispel doubts that he had been to the monastery.14 Thus, none of
M�ller's three main points seem to have been relevant.
In 1896 this Professor Douglas of Government College in Agra, India,
wrote of his own trip to Leh and Himis the previous year for the express
purpose of checking up on Notovitch's finds. He claimed that the same
head lama of Himis personally attested to him of knowing nothing of any
visit there by Notovitch or by any Russian with a broken leg.15 At this
point it would seem to be a matter of Notovitch's word against that of
Douglas, and we unfortunately know absolutely nothing about Professor
Douglas, such as his field of interest or how long he was affiliated
with Government College in Agra. He apparently did not write any books,
and in his paper he did not mention any colleague or other person to
whom he discussed his plans for traveling to Himis or with whom he
discussed his findings, except for M�ller, to whom he quickly
communicated his charges against Notovitch's alleged findings. However,
there is another possible resolution to this contradictory testimony
that M�ller himself mentioned, though with a different application in mind.
M�ller noted that there indeed had been travelers to the East "to whom
Brahmans or Buddhists have supplied, for a consideration, the
information and even the manuscripts which they were in search of." He
felt that Notovitch might have been such a victim of a Buddhist monk who
supplied him with an invented story.16 However, it appears more likely
that Douglas instead was the unknowing victim of a monk's discretion or
subterfuge, as it would obviously have been much simpler for the chief
lama of Himis to deny to Douglas any knowledge of Notovitch's visit
there, after having learned of some potentially dangerous reactions that
Notovitch's 1894 book could cause, than it would have been for him to
invent on the spot a collection of 244 verses about Isa to read to
Notovitch and his translator. And any impartial reading of his book
discloses no good motivation that Notovitch, of Russian Orthodox belief,
would have had to invent the verses about Isa, though he was obviously
excited at the prospect of being the one to fill in this gap within the
Gospels and bring the information to the attention of the West.17
One of Douglas's questions to the chief lama that suggests it was
Douglas, not Notovitch, who had been misled was: "Is the name of Issa
held in great respect by the Buddhists?" The lama's reply is said to
have been, "They know nothing even of his name; none of the Lamas has
ever heard of it, save through missionaries and European sources."18
This stands in strong contrast to what Jawarhar Nehru wrote his
daughter, Indira, in a 1932 letter: "All over Central Asia, in Kashmir
and Ladakh and Tibet and even farther north, there is still a strong
belief that Jesus or Isa travelled about there."19 It stands to reason
that the lamas were even more aware of this tradition than is the
general population.
It may be mentioned that the present traditions of Jesus having lived in
India during his youth indeed date far back in time. They were known to
the tenth-century Muslim historian, Shaikh Al-Said,20 who wrote down
some of the Hindu/Buddhist legends of Isa's travels in India.
The traditions are known also in northwestern Afghanistan, centered at
Herat, by some thousand devotees of Isa, son of Maryam, who live within
several scattered villages. This has been brought out by O. M. Burke,
who personally interviewed their spiritual leader, Abba Yahiyya (Father
John), while researching Sufism in this area of the globe.21 However,
these traditions are not particularly well known outside of their local
areas, and there is no indication that Notovitch knew of them before
coming upon word of the existence of a manuscript or two at Himis to the
effect that Jesus had been there in his travels during his youth.
Sadly, both Goodspeed and Beskow repeated and amplified the ill-founded
accusations against Notovitch that M�ller and Douglas had made,
frequently assuming or implying that he was guilty of fraud, without
ever mentioning Notovitch's telling responses to M�ller's major
questions, and without mentioning the role that Christian theological
commitment and Buddhist wisdom likely played in generating M�ller's
third point and the charges in Douglas's paper.22
One of Goodspeed's points that may be valid in part, however, is that
these Isa verses "read more like a journalistic effort to describe what
might have happened if Jesus had visited India and Persia in his youth,"
and that they would not withstand the test of literary and textual
criticism.23 This possibility is understandable, in that only after
Christianity and the Gospels had made Jesus a celebrated figure in the
West would Isa's earlier activities in India likely have been set into
writing. By then -- mid-second century at the earliest24 -- the Buddhist
or Hindu priest(s) involved would have had to rely on oral tradition
nearly a century old, if not older, plus the Gospels as a supplementary
aid. Yet, the Isa verses might fare no worse under present-day textual
criticism than have the Gospels.25 We should note that neither Hinduism
nor Buddhism would seem to have had any substantial motivation for
inventing the historical context of these verses.
One cannot say with any certainty when the bulk of the Isa verses,
assuming they are historical, was first set into writing. However, the
text strangely treats Jesus' arrest as being the full responsibility of
the Romans, in contrast to the Gospels' emphasis of chief priests and
Pharisees in this role,26 and this may be a clue. It suggests that this
portion of the verses, at least, was formed before any of the Gospels
became available, since the Indian merchants who would have returned
from Jerusalem to India with the news about Isa's crucifixion in the
years immediately following the event would likely have known only of
the Romans' role in bringing about this end result; they would not have
had the inside information of a disciple close to Jesus.27
In Beskow's discussion he analyzes the implied claim of a later Russian
-- the painter, Nicholas Roerich -- of having acquired the Isa verses
afresh during his Asian travels in 1924- 25, and finds this claim to be
insupportable.28 Here my own analysis agrees, as Roerich indeed seems to
have exhibited a strong tendency towards plagiarism, as noted by Beskow.
Although a statement by Roerich of having come across word that the Isa
verses existed within Himis monastery may have been truthful,29 it can
scarcely be trusted.
Here it has been primarily those points made by M�ller, Douglas,
Goodspeed and Beskow having the potential for being relevant that have
been discussed. Their more numerous irrelevant or slanderous statements,
and especially their important omissions, are the prime reasons why
their analyses must be labeled as unscholarly.30
II. The Later Evidence
The findings of the Hindu monk, Swami Abhedananda, support Notovitch's
discovery in practically all respects. This monk was a disciple of Sri
Ramakrishna of the Barahanagar Temple, near Calcutta. Having learned of
Notovitch's find and read his book, he decided to take his own trip to
Himis monastery to check it out, which he did in 1922, accompanied by
some others, including an expert translator from Leh. They persuaded a
lama to show them a manuscript containing the Isa verses, which he read
to Abhedananda and his interpreter, who then translated them into
Bengali. The Himis manuscript was in Tibetan; the original was said to
have been written in Pali and to exist in the monastery of Marbour near
Lhasa, all of which confirms what Notovitch had learned. Abhedananda
wrote his book containing their travelogue and a fresh version of the
Isa verses in stages, with the help of an assistant and a later editor;
in 1987 it was translated into English.31
The Swami ordered and numbered his set of Isa verses after the manner of
Notovitch's set; however, the set he presented contained far fewer
verses than the 244 within Notovitch's set, which is consistent with
Abhedananda mentioning that his set was derived from just one book at
the monastery,32 while Notovitch had mentioned a second book or
manuscript being involved also.33 In addition, however, Abhedananda
omitted publication of many verses, apparently because they contain
material that could be deemed offensive to different branches of
Hinduism. Comparison of those verses that are common to the two sets of
Isa text indicates little difference in substance but very appreciable
differences in sentence structure and detail, as is to be expected from
different translators and languages of translation having been involved.
One particular distinction between the two sets of verses is worth
mentioning, in that Beskow had caught an evident error within the
following verse from Notovitch's set: Beskow alertly pointed out that
Isa verses 5:2-3 speak erroneously of a god Jaine and of worshipers of
Jaine. Verse 5:2 reads:
Fame spread the reputation of this marvelous child throughout the
length of northern Sind, and when he crossed the country of the five
rivers and the Rajputana, the devotees of the god Jaine prayed him to
dwell among them.34
Beskow noted that "The Jains, or Jainas, do not believe in any god at
all."35 Within Abhedananda's set of Isa verses, this same verse about
the Jains is rendered in English as follows:
As he was traveling all along through the land of the five rivers,
his [Isa's] benign appearance, face radiating peace and comely forehead
attracted Jain devotees who knew him to be one who had received
blessings from God Himself.36
This translation does not contain the error of a "god Jaine," though it
is independent of Beskow's observation.37 However, it is written from
the viewpoint of a Hindu priest who does believe in God or a Godhead. It
thus supports the likelihood that in Notovitch's version of the Isa
verses the primary error had been due either to Notovitch or his translator.
I have found no reason to suspect that Abhedananda's set of Isa verses
was not freshly acquired from the Himis monastery source. His
confirmation of Notovitch's find is not discussed by Beskow, who was
probably not aware of it.
According to Abhedananda, in India Jesus likely obtained the name Isa or
Issa from "Isha," which means Lord in Sanskrit. "Lord" here relates to
their great deity, Shiva, for which another name is "Ish."38
There have been various instances in which visitors to Himis monastery
unexpectedly learned that a set of the Isa verses was located there, and
Elizabeth Clare Prophet has made known three of these cases. One such
visitor was Elizabeth Caspari, who in 1939 made the journey through that
region in the company of a Mrs. Clarence Gasque. They were told by a
monk in charge of the Himis library that "These books say your Jesus was
here!"39 Madame Caspari later became noted for having established the
first Montessori school in the U.S.
Another visitor was the late Edward F. Noack, a lover of the high
country of the Himalayas, who with his wife visited Himis monastery in
the late 1970s.40 A monk there told him that "There are manuscripts in
our library that describe the journey of Jesus to the East."41
A third visitor to the area who obtained information on this subject was
Robert Ravicz, once professor of anthropology at California State
University at Northridge. While at Himis in 1975 he learned of the "lost
years" Jesus-in-India tradition from an eminent Ladakhi physician.42
It appears that word of the existence at Himis of these one or two
manuscripts about Isa's "lost years" has very occasionally been leaked
to Western visitors to the region, but only when the lama or monk
involved felt the visitor was open minded or receptive and not inclined
to take any threatening action against the monastery. If so, it is
reasonable to expect that any future attempts by investigators to
acquire or read the manuscripts in question at Himis or Marbour
monastery will fail if the relevant lama suspects that the investigator
or his sponsor in any way holds a non-ecumenical or militantly Christian
attitude. As explained by V. R. Gandhi, the causes of this suspicious
attitude on the part of custodians of the sacred literature of the East
trace back several centuries to the Muslim invaders of India once having
destroyed thousands of the Indians' sacred documents, and to early
Christian missionaries having acquired and belittled some of their
documents.43 This distrustful attitude persists today, at least at Himis
monastery, according to Tibetologists David L. Snellgrove and Tadeusz
Skorupski.44
There is a report that records exist in the Puri Jagannath Temple
archives confirming that Issa had spent some time in India. This comes
from Sri Daya Mata of the Self-Realization Fellowship, when in 1959 she
interviewed Sri Bharati Krishna Tirtha in India; he was the
Shankaracharya of Puri.44.1 In the article she says, "In 1959 I
discussed this [Jesus being in India during the 'unknown years'] with
one of India's great spiritual leaders, His Holiness Sri Bharati Krishna
Tirtha, the Shankaracharya of Puri. I told him that Guruji had often
said to us that Christ spent some of his life in India, in association
with her illumined sages. His Holiness replied, 'That is true. I have
studied ancient records in the Puri Jagannath Temple archives confirming
these facts. He was known as "Isha," and during part of his time in
India he stayed in the Jagannath Temple. When he returned to his part of
the world, he expounded the teachings that are known today as
Christianity.'" In the above, "Guruji" refers to the yogi Paramahansa
Yogananda, and Puri is a coastal city in southeast India, where the
Jagannath Temple is located. The Lost Years verses mention that Issa had
spent time at this location. Yogananda has authored a couple of books,
and in his The Divine Romance (1986) one may read (p. 257) that he was
indeed well aware of the Lost Years evidence. The writings that Bharati
Krishna Tirtha studied could well be independent of those discovered at
Hemis monastery by Notovitch and Abhedananda. However, we find that the
final sentence in the above quote, to be correct, should read "When he
returned to his part of the world, he expounded the teachings that were
converted into the Christianity we know today."
In summary, the evidence that Jesus spent many years of his youth in
India rests upon strong evidence additional to Notovitch's findings, so
that with hindsight, one can see that his original findings should not
have been dismissed. With respect to the present study, the main
implication from this is that Jesus had likely learned of reincarnation
and karma, basic concepts of both Hinduism and Buddhism, during his
"lost" years. This raises the likelihood that he therefore taught
reincarnation and karma, among many other things, during his Palestinian
ministry, but that early Pharisaic converts to Christianity, starting
with Paul, had no desire to propagate such teachings. This deserves
serious exploration. In that case the underpinnings of Christianity
share much more with Hinduism and Buddhism, not to mention the
cabalistic branch of Judaism, than has been previously postulated within
scholarly ecumenical thought.
III. The Reincarnation Question
If there were no evidence that pointed strongly to reincarnation being a
reality, there would be little motivation for exploring the hypothesis
that Jesus taught reincarnation rather than resurrection. However, the
voluminous evidence collected in the past 30 years by investigators of
childhood cases of the reincarnation type,45 by past-life
hypno-therapists whose patients are adults,46 and by investigators of
adults having spontaneous recall of past-life scenes,47 is all better
explained or categorized by the reincarnation hypothesis than by any
other. It has been a difficult topic for Western investigators to
explore, due to the cultural taboo against reincarnation, which
logically traces back not just to the 2nd Council of Constantinople in
553 C.E. when reincarnation was declared anathema by the church, but to
the origins of Christian orthodoxy itself. Nevertheless, the data
supporting reincarnation have been accumulating at such an increasing
rate as to attract a considerable number of Western Ph.D. psychiatrists
and M.D.s into exploring the phenomenon, utilizing past-life
hypno-therapy as a powerful healing tool, and informing others through
their books.
The one authority in the field of religion who has looked into a part of
this evidence and minimized its importance in the eyes of New Testament
scholarship is John Hick. He examined a part of Ian Stevenson's evidence
on childhood cases of the reincarnation type, and concluded that
reincarnation "is beset by conceptual difficulties of the gravest
kind."48 However, that conclusion was based almost entirely upon the
observation that it is only a small fraction of children who for a time
remember incidents from their past lives, and seems predicated on the
notion that perhaps only they have past lives while the rest of humanity
does not. Missing was the thought that some psychic mechanism ordinarily
prevents us from remembering our past lives at this stage of our
evolution, with the mechanism being capable of circumvention through
hypno-regression or occasionally breaking down temporarily.49 Missing
also was any analysis by Hick of the two other categories of past-life
recall. Since the time of Hick's critical writings, other investigators
have confirmed Stevenson's findings.50
IV. Did the Source of the Gospels Contain Teachings on Reincarnation?
Some who have examined the apparent reality of reincarnation have looked
into the Gospels for clues that Jesus actually taught the subject, and
have found them.51 As to how such clues (to be discussed briefly)
originated, it is usually postulated that following the 2nd Council of
Constantinople in 553 C.E. the Gospels were edited so as to remove all
obvious traces of teachings and implications of reincarnation. However,
there is sufficient evidence from early church fathers to indicate that
some of the verses to be discussed, and which exist in about the same
form today, greatly predate this council.52 Hence a much more likely
possibility is that the New Testament gospels themselves derive mainly
from one source, and this source is what had contained Jesus' teachings
on reincarnation and karma that were edited out upon first formation of
the Gospels in the early second century.
This source could easily have been the well known Logia referred to by
the second-century Bishop Papias in his brief statement about how the
Gospel of Matthew came about, as relayed by Eusebius: "Matthew compiled
the Logia in the Hebrew dialect, and each interpreted them as best he
could."53 This is all that is known about the formulation of Matthew; it
is so terse that it may have meant that the writer of Matthew formed his
gospel from these Logia, written in Aramaic.54 Because so little is
recorded about the formation of the Gospels, because these Logia did not
survive, and because Papias is known to have written five treatises
about the Logia that also did not survive, we must treat seriously the
likelihood that this source of Matthew had been very extensive and had
contained heresies that needed excising before a sanctionable gospel
could be compiled. Teachings on reincarnation and karma would have
fallen into this category.
This view implies Matthean priority, to which only a minority of New
Testament scholars ascribe today. However, it can be shown that the
primary impetus behind the adoption of the view of Marcan priority in
the past century and a half was one of theological commitment -- to
minimize embarrassments for the church.55 The embarrassing implications
of Papias's statement,56 which is now essentially ignored by New
Testament scholarship, are only a small part of this unknowing
commitment causing Mark to be favored.
Much more could be said about Papias's Logia for which space can
scarcely be spared here. The late date of appearance of these Logia in
Palestine would have allowed them to be considered very heretical
compared to Paul's teachings and writings many decades earlier, and
these Logia may then have been the cause of the late (second-century)
flowering of the Gnostic movement. Suffice it to say here that an
impartial assessment of Papias's statement leads to the conclusion that
the Logia may well have contained heresies, and by the present reasoning
some of these heresies pertained to the topic of reincarnation. We shall
be referring back to these Logia elsewhere in this study as well as
placing a renewed emphasis upon the Gospel of Matthew.
Gospel Evidence that Jesus Taught Reincarnation
It is important to examine some particular examples of these Gospel
clues, since they are largely unknown within modern scholasticism.
Perhaps the primary verse to this effect is Mt 11:14, "...and if you are
willing to accept it, he [John the Baptist] is Elijah who is to come."
The only alternative here to the implication that Jesus was talking of
Elijah having been a past life of John, who would be reborn again some
time in the future, comes from 2 Kgs 2:11 in which Elijah is "taken up
by a whirlwind into heaven" and is seen no more. If it is assumed that
this means Elijah never died but was "translated" alive into heaven, the
further assumptions are then needed that he later "translated" into the
body of John the Baptist and would "translate" into some other body in
the future. However, this concept of translation, involving a fully
human body that never ages or dies, seems unintelligible in comparison
with the reincarnation hypothesis, especially since John is described in
Luke's first chapter as having been raised from a baby and never having
suddenly changed into Elijah's very own "translated" body.
The reincarnation hypothesis here is consistent with Jesus' wording, "if
you are willing to accept it." Probably only a minority of his listeners
in Israel believed in reincarnation, with many, especially Pharisees and
Sadducees, being opposed to the concept. Thus, Jesus at that point was
speaking just to those who could accept the possibility. It is likely
that the Logia had more to say here about Elijah's (John's) future
reincarnation that was omitted when Matthew was formed. That Matthew's
compiler left this strong a clue behind here is probably attributable to
his fondness for Elijah, along with other Old Testament personages,
causing him to include as much of this Logia verse as seemed feasible.
Also, this compiler evidently believed in "translation," and supported
this belief with his Transfiguration story. Thus he probably would not
have felt that he was leaving behind a clue here that his source text
had discussed reincarnation.
Another strong clue is found in Mt 16:13-15, "Now when Jesus came into
the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, `Who do men
say that the Son of man is?' And they said, `Some say John the Baptist,
others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' He said
to them, `But who do you say that I am?'"57 Although it is quite
possible that in asking the question Jesus was wondering if the people
thought of him as a Messiah of some sort, their response (especially
"Jeremiah or one of the prophets") indicates they had a past life in
mind. That this did not cause any stir or consternation is consistent
with Jesus having wondered what important past life they believed him to
have had.
Another clue is Mt 24:4 where we read: "For many will come in my name,
saying `I am the Christ!' and they will lead many astray."58 This makes
most sense if Jesus was referring to persons in the distant future who
would claim they are reincarnations of him. It makes less sense to think
they would claim to be resurrections of him, which would require their
asserting to have first appeared on earth in their own time in the
full-grown resurrected body of Jesus, never having passed through
childhood. Moreover, at the time the text of the verse was spoken,
resurrection or "anastasis" referred only to a general resurrection at
the end times, and not to the raising up of a particular individual.
Further clues consist of the "incarnation" verses: "I have come not
to... but to..." Of these, Mt 5:17 and 10:34 seem here most likely to be
in a form close to that of their source. If Jesus had early in life
gained an understanding of what his life's mission and goals were to be
-- and the "lost years" evidence supports that likelihood, he could then
speak as "having come" for such-and-such a purpose. Thus the
"incarnation verses" easily fit into the context of Jesus having taught
that he, as well as all others, were subject to reincarnation. This
provides a real alternative to the interpretation that he was incarnated
once and for all as part of a Trinity. The foregoing clues are mostly
absent from the other gospels, indicative of "improvements" directed
towards increased orthodoxy as is usually to be expected within later
works, and supporting Matthean priority.
If the Logia were the source of Matthew, we then infer that other
teachings of reincarnation were omitted from Matthew or were highly
edited, with "resurrection" substituted for "reincarnation" or "rebirth."
A verse from John (Jn 9:1-2) regarding the man blind from birth is also
commonly cited as indication that Jesus and his disciples assumed
reincarnation to be a fact.59 Although this instance may be an
indication that the writer of John had been accustomed to interpreting
fate in a karmic sense, the testimony of Papias suggests that only the
compiler of Matthew was close enough to the Logia to have left bonafide
clues behind from the source document. However, the writers of Luke and
John may have been those referred to by the portion of Papias's
statement reading "and each interpreted them [the Logia] as best he could."
Matthean Clues Indicative of Karma
Perhaps the most obvious of these is Mt 26:52, "...for all who take the
sword will perish by the sword." It is evident in everyday life that
this is often not true, with some murderers getting away with their
misdeeds. However, within the context of reincarnation and karma, the
verse suggests that those who do not truly repent of their misdeeds in
the present life will have to suffer unpleasant learning experiences of
like kind from the victim's point of view in one or more future lifetimes.
Another clue on karma left behind is Mt 7:2, "...For with the judgment
you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the
measure you get." This presumably refers to the consequences of having
judged falsely or unfairly. Again, we see that the warning is not
necessarily a truism within a person's present life, but could well be
over a succession of lifetimes. Other examples, which require more
discussion, could be presented.60
It may be added that with this analysis we find, contrary to the Jesus
Seminar, for example,61 that the Golden Rule (Mt 7:12) was an authentic
saying from Jesus, though not of course original. By following that rule
one usually avoids developing negative karma.
The evidence is thus as strong as can be expected that Jesus taught
reincarnation and karma, among many other things, not resurrection, if
he were indeed a wisdom teacher, which is assumed here. Such teachings
would have tended to attract any Hindus temporarily residing in
Palestine to hear him talk and meet him, greatly increasing the
likelihood that Jesus had a few Indian friends there who learned from
him of his earlier years spent in India.
It is Paul who was no doubt instrumental in establishing the orthodox
view that the empty tomb was due to Jesus having been the first fruits
of resurrection. This ex-Pharisee must already have believed in a
Pharisee's view of resurrection before his conversion. However, the full
implications of the Jesus-in-India evidence are much too manifold to
explore here.62
V. Implications for Judeo-Christianity
The foregoing evidence and supporting deductions may be unfamiliar to
the reader because they have been systematically ignored in the West.
However, when they are viewed together as a whole, we see a very
consistent picture trying to tell us that Christianity over the
centuries has been improperly sent on an unnecessarily deviant path
apart from Eastern religions since the time of Paul. This is not to say
that some fraction of the strange tales one may read about Jesus are not
indeed fictions,63 but to say that a holistic perception is needed to
separate probable fact from probable fiction. The practice of assuming
that any tradition is false if it conflicts with one's own particular
theological commitment, without having first carefully examined it with
an open mind and in a holistic manner, cannot be condoned no matter how
widespread it has been.
If one's understanding of ecumenism is to nudge adherents of other
religions towards Christian orthodoxy, the present treatment could seem
to be radical. However, if the goal is instead to seek historical truth,
the present approach may be seen to be conservative in the sense of
being fundamental and rudimentary. It finds that Christianity itself is
in greatest need of change. The picture of Jesus that emerges is not the
one that Western scholarship leans towards -- that Jesus was an
itinerant teacher and seditionist of Pharisaic disposition64 -- but one
much closer to the view held by Hinduism and Buddhism. Obviously, this
view would represent a huge step towards bridging some of the present
gaps between Christianity and the Eastern religions. Ironically,
appreciation of the validity of the Jesus-in-India evidence would have
the dubious ecumenical value of promoting Jewish-Christian relations
through a common interest in more strenuously denouncing the evidence
supporting reincarnation.
Before looking ahead seriously to the real ecumenical benefits that
would ensue if the Jesus-in-India evidence and the non- scholastic
treatment it has received were to become widely known, there are
important issues to consider. As pointed out by Raimundo Panikhar,
"there must be equal preparation from both sides, both theologically and
culturally," before beginning an ecumenical dialogue.65 Such preparation
of course entails a serious study of the evidence, and this, for many
Christians, would likely be considered beyond the bounds of
acceptability, or simply unthinkable.
Secondly, according to Panikhar, "There must be mutual trust, which is
possible only when all the cards are on the table." Should we dismiss
those "cards" that indicate the reality of the Jesus-in-India evidence
simply because our belief system prefers that we not know about them?
Third, "The different issues -- theological, practical, institutional,
etc., have to be carefully distinguished." The present topic encompasses
all of these, but they are as overpowering as they are obvious. The
immediate theological implications penetrate to the heart of
Christianity itself. The practical implications are also overwhelming,
involving how to view life and death. The institutional implications
would also be dramatic if it were possible for the church to change
substantially.
With Christianity not susceptible to appreciable change, however, the
foregoing evidence and reasoning must patiently remain as building
blocks for the distant future before it will provide a much firmer basis
for building ecumenical bridges between a revitalized "Christianity" and
other major religions than any seriously suggested heretofore.
Endnotes
1. Nicholas Notovitch, La Vie inconnue de J�sus-Christ (Paris: M. Paul
Ollendorf, 1894). In India, Jesus is known primarily as Isa or Issa.
2. F. Max M�ller, "The Alleged Sojourn of Christ in India," The
Nineteenth Century, (Oct., 1894): pp, 515-522.
3. Notovitch, The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ, transl. V. Crispe
(London: Hutchinson and Co., 1895), xxiii-xxx.
4. Despite M�ller's valuable life work of translating sacred Hindu
writings into English and German, it is evident that he considered a
simple form of Christianity to be far superior to any of the world's
other great religions. See Nirad C. Chaudhuri, Scholar Extraordinary
(London: Chatto & Windus, 1974), 70-72, 325, 335, 374-375.
5. Edgar J. Goodspeed, Strange New Gospels (Chicago: Chicago University
Press, 1931), 16-24; Per Beskow, Strange Tales about Jesus: A Survey of
Unfamiliar Gospels (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985), 59-63.
Goodspeed was the originator of the first American translation of the
New Testament, and a professor at the University of Chicago Divinity
School. Beskow was an associate professor of patristic studies at the
Swedish Council for Research in the Humanities and Social Sciences in
Lund, Sweden.
6. Although Notovitch failed to clearly designate who his translator
was, he did mention earlier in his travelog that he had acquired an
interpreter who had been highly recommended to him by a Frenchman (M.
Peychaud) who was the cultivator for the vineyards of the maharajah in
Srinagar. Thus one infers that he translated them into French, which is
the same language in which Notovitch wrote his book.
7. Notovitch, Unknown Life, p. 134.
8. Notovitch, Unknown Life, p. xxx (in Note to the Publisher).
9. M�ller, "Alleged Sojourn of Christ," pp. 518-519.
10. Notovitch, Unknown Life, pp. xxvi-xxvii.
11. M�ller, "Alleged Sojourn of Christ," pp. 516, 521.
12. J. Archibald Douglas, "The Chief Lama of Himis on the Alleged
`Unknown Life of Christ'," Nineteenth Century (Apr. 1896): pp. 667-678; 669.
13. Notovitch, Unknown Life, pp. xxiii-xxiv.
14. Ibid., pp. 92, 94, 100, 110.
15. Douglas, "On the Alleged `Unknown Life'," p. 671.
16. M�ller, "Alleged Sojourn of Christ," pp. 516-517.
17. Notovitch, Unknown Life, pp. l-li.
18. Douglas, "On the Alleged `Unknown Life'," p. 672.
19. Jawarhar Lal Nehru, Glimpses of World History (New York: John Day
Co., 1942) 84.
20. His full name was Al-Shaikh Al-Said-us-Sadiq Abi Jaffar Muhammad
Ibn-i-Ali Ibn-i-Hussain Ibn-i-Musa Ibn-i-Baibuyah al-Qummi, according to
Khwaja Nazir Ahmad, Jesus in Heaven on Earth (Woking, England: Woking
Muslim Mission & Literary Trust, 1952) 365.
21. Omar Michael Burke, Among the Dervishes (London: Octagon Press,
1976) 107.
22. That Douglas was highly committed theologically is evident from his
vehement opposition to an Isa verse that practically denies the
resurrection: Douglas, "On the Alleged `Unknown Life'," p. 670.
23. Goodspeed, Strange New Gospels, pp. 16, 24.
24. Arthur J. Bellinzoni, "The Gospel of Matthew in the Second Century,"
Second Century 9 (1992): 197-258, see p. 235 specifically.
25. The Jesus Seminar, "Voting Records," Forum 6 (1990): 9-47. There
some 86% of the verses comprised of the sayings and teachings of Jesus
within Matthew, for example, are found to be probably non-genuine.
26. We may note that since World War II a substantial fraction of New
Testament scholars have adopted this very view: assuming that all Gospel
verses denigrating scribes, Pharisees and chief priests are redactions
or reflect biased opinions of the Gospel writers.
27. This is not to imply that the Gospels were written during the
lifetimes of the disciples. The author subscribes to the view that the
main source for the Gospels was written by a disciple but was not made
available to a church scribe until early second century. See James W.
Deardorff, The Problems of New Testament Gospel Origins: A Glasnost
Approach (Lewiston, NY: Mellen Press (Mellen Research University Press),
1992) 11-22, 63-73.
28. Beskow, Strange Tales, pp. 62-63; Nicholas Roerich, "Banners of the
East," in Himalaya (New York: Brentano's, 1926) 148-153.
29. Roerich, "Banners of the East," p. 172.
30. For full details on this, see James W. Deardorff, Jesus in India: A
Reexamination of Jesus' Asian Traditions in the Light of Evidence
Supporting Reincarnation (Bethesda, MD: International Scholars
Publications, 1994) 103-134.
31. Swami Abhedananda, Kashmir O Tibbate (In Kashmir and Tibet), 2nd
Ed., ed. Swami Prajnanananda (Calcutta: Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, 1953);
idem, Swami Abhedananda's Journey into Kashmir and Tibet, Transls.
Ansupati Dasgupta and Kunja Bihari Kundu (Calcutta: Ramakrishna Vedanta
Math, 1987; available from Vedanta Press, 1946 Vedanta Pl., Hollywood,
CA 90068; Tel.: 213-465-7114).
32. Abhedananda's Journey, p. 119. Abhedananda or his editor arranged
and numbered their presented text so that it would conform with
Notovitch's ordering. With only a few exceptions, verses may be directly
compared.
33. Notovitch, Unknown Life, pp. 128, 205.
34. Ibid., p. 145.
35. Beskow, Strange Tales, p. 59.
36. Abhedananda's Journey, p. 120.
37. Although Beskow's 1985 book predates the English translation of
Abhedananda's Kashmir O Tibbate, an earlier English translation of
relevant portions of it had been made and published within the 1984 book
of Elizabeth Clare Prophet, The Lost Years of Jesus (Livingston,
Montana: Summit University Press, 1984). This latter translation also
does not make the error about the Jaines. Prophet was unaware of
Beskow's 1979 (Swedish) version of Strange Tales about Jesus.
38. Abhedananda's Journey, p. 122.
39. Prophet, Lost Years, p. 317.
40. He is author of Amidst Ice and Nomads in High Asia (Burbank,
California: National Literary Guild, 1984).
41. Prophet, Lost Years, p. 345 (see photo caption).
42. Ibid.
43. Virchand R. Gandhi, The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (Chicago:
Indo-American Book Co., 1907) 48.
44. David L. Snellgrove and Tadeusz Skorupski, The Cultural Heritage of
Ladakh (Columbia, Missouri: Prajana Press, South Asia Books, 1977) 127.
44.1. Sri Daya Mata, "Remembering Paramahansa Yogananda," in
Self-Realization Magazine, Winter, 1992, p.16.
45. Lafcadio Hearn, Gleanings in Buddha-Fields (Boston: Houghton &
Mifflin, 1897), Chap. 10; Ian Stevenson, Twenty Cases Suggestive of
Reincarnation, 2nd Ed. (Charlottesville: Univ. of Virginia Press, 1974);
Ian Stevenson, Cases of the Reincarnation Type, Vols. 1-4
(Charlottesville: Univ. of Virginia Press, 1975-1983); Ian Stevenson,
Children Who Remember Previous Lives (Charlottesville: Univ. of Virginia
Press, 1987); Satwant Pasricha, Claims of Reincarnation: An Empirical
Study of Cases in India (New Delhi: Harmon Publishing House, 1990).
46. T. Dethlefson, Voices from Other Lives: Reincarnation as a Source of
Healing (New York: M. Evans, 1976); Edith Fiore, You Have Been Here
Before (New York: Ballantine Books, 1978); Helen Wambach, Reliving Past
Lives: The Evidence under Hypnosis (New York: Bantam Books, 1979); Joel
L. Whitton and Joe Fisher, Life Between Life (New York: Warner Books,
1986); Karl Schlotterbeck, Living Your Past Lives: The Psychology of
Past-Life Regression (New York: Ballantine Books, 1987); Bruce Goldberg,
Past Lives, Future Lives (New York: Ballantine Books, 1988); Brian
Weiss, Many Lives, Many Masters (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1988);
Roger Woolger, Other Lives, Other Selves (New York: Bantam Books, 1988);
John Van Auken, Born Again & Again (Virginia Beach: Inner Vision, 1989);
Raymond A. Moody, Coming Back: A Psychiatrist Explores Past-Life
Journeys (New York: Bantam Books, 1991); Brian Weiss, Through Time into
Healing (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1992).
47. Frederick Lenz, Lifetimes: True Accounts of Reincarnation (New York:
Ballantine Books, 1979); H. N. Banerjee, Americans Who Have Been
Reincarnated (New York: Macmillan, 1980), pp. 45-50, 149-153, 169-176.
48. John Hick, Death and Eternal Life (San Francisco: Harper & Row,
1976) 304-308.
49. Stevenson has found that young children who remember their most
recent past lives are much more prone to have suffered a violent death
in that past life than is to be expected demographically.
50. Ian Stevenson and Godwin Samararatne, "Three New Cases of the
Reincarnation Type in Sri Lanka with Written Records Made before
Verifications," J. Scientific Exploration 2 (1988): pp. 217-238;
Erlunder Haraldsson, "Children Claiming Past-life Memories: Four Cases
in Sri Lanka," J. Scientific Exploration 5 (1991): pp. 233-261; Antonia
Mills, "A Replication Study: Three Cases of Children in Northern India
Who Are Said to Remember a Previous Life," J. Scientific Exploration 3
(1989): pp. 133-184; Antonia Mills, "Moslem Cases of the reincarnation
Type in Northern India: A Test of the Hypothesis of Imposed
Identification. Part I: Analysis of 26 Cases," J. Scientific Exploration
4 (1990): pp. 171-188; J�rgen Keil, "New Cases in Burma, Thailand, and
Turkey: A Limited Field Study Replication of Some Aspects of Ian
Stevenson's Research," J. Scientific Exploration 5 (1991): pp. 27-59.
51. Joseph Head and S. L. Cranston, Reincarnation in World Thought (New
York: Julian Press, 1967), pp. 96-100; Sylvia Cranston and Carey
Williams, Reincarnation (New York: Julian Press, 1984), pp. 207-210;
Woolger, Other lives, Other Selves, pp. 71-73.
52. Tertullian, "A Treatise on the Soul," Chap. 35, in Ante-Nicene
Fathers, eds. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans,
1957), vol. 3, p. 216. Tertullian died around 220 or 240 C.E; his
writing on this occurred before he broke with Christian orthodoxy to
become a Montanist.
53. Eusebius, The Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.16, transl. K. Lake, vol.
1 (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1953), p. 297.
54. Due to the early- to mid-second century dating of Papias's life and
of the first mention of any of the Gospels by name, it is safe to assume
that the Gospels came out too late to be written by the men whose names
are attached to them. Yet by the time of Irenaeus in the late
2nd-century, and certainly by the time of Eusebius, theological
commitment required the assumption that they were written respectively
by the disciple Matthew, by John Mark, by Luke the physician, and by the
disciple John.
55. Deardorff, New Testament Gospel Origins, pp. 29-30, 83, 88, 95, 97,
102-103, 124-127, 164.
56. An embarrassment for 20th-century scholars is that the statement
suggests that the Logia were written in Aramaic or Hebrew, which implies
that Matthew's gospel was also. The latter in turn implies that Matthew
preceded Mark, which was probably the first Gospel to have been written
in Greek. The embarrassment of "and each interpreted them as best he
could" is that it implies that some other evangelists besides the
compiler of Matthew had had some access to the Logia, but had difficulty
"interpreting them" or incorporating any more from them into their own
gospels than Matthew's compiler already had accomplished, because of the
Logia's heresies.
57. We agree with most scholars in deducing that the compiler of Matthew
substituted "Son of man" here, as in many other spots, to replace the
personal pronoun, "I." E.g., see Francis Beare, The Gospel according to
Matthew (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1981) 352.
58. In this verse we infer that "Christ" is a redactive substitution for
his actual name, fed in by the compiler.
59. Cranston and Carey, Reincarnation, pp. 207-208.
60. Deardorff, Jesus in India, pp. 31-34.
61. Jesus Seminar, "Voting Records," Forum 6, (March, 1990) 36.
62. Instead, see Deardorff, Jesus in India.
63. An example is a story that Jesus, along with a brother, was buried
in Japan; see The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 1, 1993. This conflicts with
other, much stronger evidence, however heretical, indicating that his
tomb is instead in Srinagar, Kashmir.
64. Philip L. Culbertson, "What is Left to Believe in Jesus after the
Scholars Have Done with Him?" J.E.S. 28 (Winter, 1991): p. 2.
65. Raimundo Panikhar, "Inter-religious Dialogue: Some Principles,"
J.E.S. 12 (Summer, 1975): pp. 407-409.
<=
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 06:02:33 PM

Amy wrote:
leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

Long but worth reading...

Pure *****.
Tony
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 06:04:06 PM

leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

It's nothing more than a fantasy of those who cannot accept Jesus for
what he himself claimed to be.
These people can only tolerate Jesus if they add something to him that
they like.
Tony
.

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 06:48:43 PM

wrote:

leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

It's nothing more than a fantasy of those who cannot accept Jesus for
what he himself claimed to be.

These people can only tolerate Jesus if they add something to him that
they like.

What, exactly, do you find objectionable to this speculation? Clearly,
there is nothing negative in the conjecture. I can see you being upset
if the claim was being made that He'd gone across Asia sowing His Holy
Oats, but this was strictly a spiritual journey, absolutely nothing
remotely salacious being said here.
Woods

Tony

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	14 Jun 2005 10:00:48 AM

Woods wrote:

itwill@happen.com wrote:

leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

It's nothing more than a fantasy of those who cannot accept Jesus for
what he himself claimed to be.

These people can only tolerate Jesus if they add something to him that
they like.

To suggest the The Lord of Lords needed to go to India to learn
something is blasphamy.
That you can't see this is evidence of your ignorance.
Tony
.

User: "Tom"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	14 Jun 2005 03:16:36 PM

wrote in message news:<1118761248.7e13ed373153d61b9c37b341304fbaaf@teranews>...

Woods wrote:

wrote:

leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

It's nothing more than a fantasy of those who cannot accept Jesus for
what he himself claimed to be.

These people can only tolerate Jesus if they add something to him that
they like.

Woods

To suggest the The Lord of Lords needed to go to India to learn
something is blasphamy.

Wrong. And what the ***** is "blasphamy", Bitchtits?

That you can't see this is evidence of your ignorance.

Wrong as usual, fatboy.

Tony

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	14 Jun 2005 04:44:30 PM

wrote:

Woods wrote:

wrote:

leigh8bee@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

It's nothing more than a fantasy of those who cannot accept Jesus for
what he himself claimed to be.

These people can only tolerate Jesus if they add something to him that
they like.

Woods

To suggest the The Lord of Lords needed to go to India to learn
something is blasphamy.

He learned the Talmud at the Temple, so it isn't much of a stretch that
He also learned other religious beliefs, as well. After all, He didn't
come into His inheritance until *after* He successfully overcame His
temptations in the desert - and it was the time period before that which
is in question.

That you can't see this is evidence of your ignorance.

He didn't have the full knowledge until after He overcame the temptations.
Woods

Tony

User: "John Smith"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 01:04:39 AM

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by anyone's
standards.)
Just A Thought.
:-(]
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 05:13:25 AM

JohN Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by anyone's
standards.)
Just A Thought.
:-(]

And your point is what exactly?
Tony
.

User: "Jane"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 07:02:41 AM

<Amy's@DeadHusband.com> wrote in message
news:1118916798.6d352712254469e41d2d58aabe79af0b@teranews...

JohN Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for
his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by
anyone's
standards.)

Just A Thought.

:-(]

And your point is what exactly?

Tony

John Smith aka Kim Miller has many voices in his head. He likely doesn't
have point and will blame an entity from his "past life" for all postings!
Jane

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 07:56:50 PM

Jane wrote:

<Amy's@DeadHusband.com> wrote in message
news:1118916798.6d352712254469e41d2d58aabe79af0b@teranews...

JohN Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for
his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by
anyone's
standards.)

Just A Thought.

:-(]

And your point is what exactly?

Tony

John Smith aka Kim Miller has many voices in his head. He likely doesn't
have point and will blame an entity from his "past life" for all postings!

Ah, is that who John Smith is?
Woods

Jane

User: "Jane"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 09:24:25 PM

"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:mdpse.77429$HT1.41257@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

Jane wrote:

<Amy's@DeadHusband.com> wrote in message
news:1118916798.6d352712254469e41d2d58aabe79af0b@teranews...

JohN Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for
his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by
anyone's
standards.)

Just A Thought.

:-(]

And your point is what exactly?

Tony

John Smith aka Kim Miller has many voices in his head. He likely doesn't
have point and will blame an entity from his "past life" for all
postings!

Ah, is that who John Smith is?

Woods

Yes, indeed!
Jane (forgive my sniping, ;) , but all the past lives get on my nerves!)

Jane

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 07:38:01 AM

Jane wrote:

<Amy's@DeadHusband.com> wrote in message
news:1118916798.6d352712254469e41d2d58aabe79af0b@teranews...

JohN Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for
his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by
anyone's
standards.)

Just A Thought.

:-(]

And your point is what exactly?

Tony

John Smith aka Kim Miller has many voices in his head. He likely doesn't
have point and will blame an entity from his "past life" for all postings!
Jane

LOL!!!
Tony
.

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 07:56:19 PM

John Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for his 40 days
of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by anyone's
standards.)

It's not the 40 days, its the nearly 20 years. There is no mention of
what He did between the time he was 12 or so (speaking with the elders
at the Temple) and being baptized by John the Baptist at about the age
of 29.
Woods
.

User: "John Smith"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	16 Jun 2005 08:53:19 PM

Exactly!!! (I kinda forgot about those years.)
Anyway, who knows for sure who Jesus met within that time frame that may have
influenced him.
Just Another Thought.
:-()
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message

John Smith wrote:

Not to step on anyone's toes (or beliefs), but can you TRULY account for his 40

days

of wandering in the 'Wilderness'. (That is a long period of time by anyone's
standards.)

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	13 Jun 2005 08:19:16 AM

Absolute Zero wrote:

The Notovitch fraud was easily exposed at the time. Here are two
articles written at that time which expose that Notovitch was lying:
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/scanned/notovitch.htm
Still, he made money off it, and doubtless had no other aim.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.

User: "Absolute Zero"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	13 Jun 2005 08:42:12 AM

wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote:

The Notovitch fraud was easily exposed at the time. Here are two
articles written at that time which expose that Notovitch was lying:

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/scanned/notovitch.htm

Brilliant, all you've done is to invoke the ghosts of the original
critics... try instead to knock Deardorff's handy dismissal of said critics.
-A

Still, he made money off it, and doubtless had no other aim.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	13 Jun 2005 10:58:29 AM

Absolute Zero wrote:

roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote:

The Notovitch fraud was easily exposed at the time. Here are two
articles written at that time which expose that Notovitch was lying:

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/scanned/notovitch.htm

Brilliant, all you've done is to invoke the ghosts of the original
critics... try instead to knock Deardorff's handy dismissal of said critics.

There is no possible honest dismissal of the testimony of
eye-witnesses.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.

User: "Woodswun"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	13 Jun 2005 04:40:28 PM

wrote:

Absolute Zero wrote:

The Notovitch fraud was easily exposed at the time. Here are two
articles written at that time which expose that Notovitch was lying:

Evidently, you read nothing of what was in the article, which indicate
the very document you point to was grinding an axe and did not
adequately address the real issues.
Woods
.

User: "FourCell"
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 08:09:22 AM

wrote:

Oh yes but remember you are that boat.
Since when did Jesus cruise off to India?
LB

Not the boat, but the sail. Lateen Sail to be specific,
which traders used to ply their wooden craft from the
Perian Gulf to India, in as little as two days -
depending on the winds and the weather.
Jesus returned from India with a warm wind. That wind
would shake the sleeping masses in the dark, violent
and ignorant Mid-East. His teachings were packaged as parables, as are
Buddhist teachings - simple, easy
for uneducated people to understand. He was a genius,
and had a strong commitment to help his own people.
He taught re-incarnation and Karma, in a lanaguage
and way that would be understood by his own culture.
His Lord Father was not his physical father, but the Lord
Buddha, the Father of Wisdom, a man who attained perfect
incarnation to GodHead in his lifetime. Jesus was a
revolutionary, who was able, by his actions and teachings,
to create the second major religion in the Levant.
It wasn't his intention to do so - that was done by
others. Jesus intended only wanted to teach,as a student
himself of Siddhartha Gautama's wisdom - humbly, gently,
with love.
For this, he was killed by the powers that be, whose
power-base depended on strict obedience, ignorance
and fear.
The Christian Church is no more willing to acknowlege
the truth about this man Jesus, than Caiphas was
willing to let Jesus teach "heresy" in the Temples of
Jerusalem.
Not much has changed in 2,000. Send that $20 check
in the "Praise The Lord TV Ministry" at the end of
the program."
As a master Buddhist monk, Jesus could perform what
appeared to be miracles, such is the depth of
his knowledge. Unfortunately, a sect of mostly homosexual Syrian monks
conspired with the Emperor of Rome in
the year 325 A.D., and tossed out 25 books of the "New
Testament".,
This included the "Gospel of Mary." Didn't take long for
the NEW powers that be to dig in,including removing
Jesus's teachings about equal rights for women.
Jesus's teachings are less understood today than they
were the day he was suspended on the cross-boards with railroad spikes
as jewelry.
Every time you see some overweight, ex-convict on TV
thumping his 5 kilo, 300cm x 300" black book,
while his data entry clerks are busy in the back room
totalling up his cash flow, you are witnessing
the new Caiphas in action. The foxes are guarding the
Henhouse.
A Wind will come to the West, but this time it will
not be a warm wind carrying a young, genius, enlightened Master Monk.
This is a Cold Wind, that will bring only darkness.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Why do people want prophecies?	12 Jun 2005 06:05:50 PM

4-Deadbrain Cells wrote:

As a master Buddhist monk, Jesus could perform what
appeared to be miracles,

You lying *****, does it make you feel good to tell lies about the
Lord of Lords?
Tony
.