June 3, 2004
World Opinion Be Damned
America's attempts to appease "world opinion" are depraved and suicidal
By Alex Epstein
It is a testament to the perverse priorities of our politicians and
journalists that the biggest American outcry over Abu Ghraib has been not about
the gruesome decapitation of American Nicholas Berg by terrorists, but about
the fact that many Arabs and Europeans are mad at us.
"We are the most hated nation in the world," laments Ted Kennedy, "as a
result of this disastrous policy in the prisons."
The alleged solution to this alleged crisis of "world opinion" is to
show more deference toward the rest of the world. Otherwise, we are told, the
world's anger will bring more terrorist attacks and less "international
cooperation" against terrorism.
All of this evades one blatant truth: the hatred being heaped on
America over Abu Ghraib is undeserved. Throughout the Middle East,
torture—real torture, with electric drills and vats of acid—is official
policy and daily practice. Yet there are no worldwide condemnations of the
dictatorships that practice such atrocities—let alone the Arab-Islamic
culture that produces so many torturers. But when, during a war, a handful of
American prison guards subject a handful of Iraqi POWs to comparatively mild
humiliation—which the U.S. government denounces and promptly
investigates—"world opinion" proclaims itself offended and condemns America.
Abu Ghraib is just the latest example of the injustice of "world
opinion." Since September 11, the United States—the freest nation on
Earth—has been ceaselessly denounced for any step in the direction of
self-defense against terrorism, while terrorist regimes Iran, Syria, Saudi
Arabia, and the Palestinian Authority get a moral free pass.
So-called "world opinion" is not the unanimous and just consensus that
its seekers pretend. (Observe that the phrase never includes the many
pro-American foreigners, such as freedom-fighters in Iran.) It is the
irrational and unjust opinion of the world's worst people: the Islamists who
seek to subjugate the world to Islamic rule, the socialists and pacifists who
seek to subjugate U.S. sovereignty to U.N. rule, and the legions of "moderate"
followers who support or sympathize with these goals. These people oppose us
not because of any legitimate grievances against America, but because they are
steeped in irrational doctrines like Islamic fundamentalism, collectivism, and
pacifism—which lead them to oppose and resent American freedom and
individualism, and our resulting wealth and power.
The proper response to the anti-American voicers of "world opinion" is
to identify them as our ideological and political enemies—and dispense
justice accordingly. In the case of our militant enemies, we must kill and
demoralize them—especially the Arab and Islamic regimes that support
terrorism and fuel the Islamist movement; as for the rest, we must politically
ignore them and intellectually discredit them, while proudly arguing for the
superiority of Americanism. Such a policy would make us safe, expose
anti-Americanism as irrational and immoral, and embolden the world's best
elements to support our ideals and emulate our ways.
President Bush, like most politicians and intellectuals, has taken the
opposite approach to "world opinion": he has tried to appease it. Instead of
identifying anti-American Muslims as ideological enemies to be discredited, he
has appealed to their sensibilities and met their demands—e.g., sacrificing
American soldiers to save Iraqi civilians and mosques, and striving to make the
Iraqi occupation not look "too American." Instead of seeking to crush the
Islamists by defeating the causes they fight for—such as Islamic world
domination and the destruction of Israel—he has appeased those causes,
declaring Islam a "great religion" and rewarding the Palestinian terrorist
Jihad with a promised Palestinian state. Instead of destroying the terrorist
regimes that wage war against the West—including Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia,
and the Palestinian Authority—he has sought their "cooperation" and even cast
some as "coalition partners."
Such measures have taught the enemies they appease a deadly lesson:
anti-Americanism pays. "Denounce and oppose America," they have learned, "no
matter how irrationally and hypocritically, and American leaders will praise
your ideals and meet your demands." "Attack America via terrorist proxy,"
terrorist states and movements have been taught, "and America will neither
blame you nor destroy you, but redouble its efforts to buy your love." Is it
any wonder that anti-Americanism is gaining prominence, and that the "War on
Terrorism" has no end in sight?
Every attempt to appease "world opinion" preserves, promotes, and
emboldens our enemies. Every concession to angry Muslim mobs, every
denunciation of Israel, every consultation with Prince Bandar or dictator Assad
gives hope to the Islamist cause. Every day we allow terrorist regimes to exist
gives their minions time to execute the next September 11. America needs honest
leadership with the courage to identify and defeat our enemies—world opinion
be damned.
.
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| User: "eric davis" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
06 Jun 2004 12:01:18 PM |
|
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040606091009.11868.00000439@mb-m27.aol.com...
June 3, 2004
World Opinion Be Damned
America's attempts to appease "world opinion" are depraved and suicidal
By Alex Epstein
It is a testament to the perverse priorities of our politicians
and
journalists that the biggest American outcry over Abu Ghraib has been not
about
the gruesome decapitation of American Nicholas Berg by terrorists, but
about
the fact that many Arabs and Europeans are mad at us.
"We are the most hated nation in the world," laments Ted Kennedy,
"as a
result of this disastrous policy in the prisons."
The alleged solution to this alleged crisis of "world opinion" is
to
show more deference toward the rest of the world. Otherwise, we are told,
the
world's anger will bring more terrorist attacks and less "international
cooperation" against terrorism.
All of this evades one blatant truth: the hatred being heaped on
America over Abu Ghraib is undeserved. Throughout the Middle East,
torture-real torture, with electric drills and vats of acid-is official
policy and daily practice. Yet there are no worldwide condemnations of the
dictatorships that practice such atrocities-let alone the Arab-Islamic
culture that produces so many torturers. But when, during a war, a handful
of
American prison guards subject a handful of Iraqi POWs to comparatively
mild
humiliation-which the U.S. government denounces and promptly
investigates-"world opinion" proclaims itself offended and condemns
America.
Abu Ghraib is just the latest example of the injustice of "world
opinion." Since September 11, the United States-the freest nation on
Earth-has been ceaselessly denounced for any step in the direction of
self-defense against terrorism, while terrorist regimes Iran, Syria, Saudi
Arabia, and the Palestinian Authority get a moral free pass.
So-called "world opinion" is not the unanimous and just consensus
that
its seekers pretend. (Observe that the phrase never includes the many
pro-American foreigners, such as freedom-fighters in Iran.) It is the
irrational and unjust opinion of the world's worst people: the Islamists
who
seek to subjugate the world to Islamic rule, the socialists and pacifists
who
seek to subjugate U.S. sovereignty to U.N. rule, and the legions of
"moderate"
followers who support or sympathize with these goals. These people oppose
us
not because of any legitimate grievances against America, but because they
are
steeped in irrational doctrines like Islamic fundamentalism, collectivism,
and
pacifism-which lead them to oppose and resent American freedom and
individualism, and our resulting wealth and power.
The proper response to the anti-American voicers of "world
opinion" is
to identify them as our ideological and political enemies-and dispense
justice accordingly. In the case of our militant enemies, we must kill and
demoralize them-especially the Arab and Islamic regimes that support
terrorism and fuel the Islamist movement; as for the rest, we must
politically
ignore them and intellectually discredit them, while proudly arguing for
the
superiority of Americanism. Such a policy would make us safe, expose
anti-Americanism as irrational and immoral, and embolden the world's best
elements to support our ideals and emulate our ways.
President Bush, like most politicians and intellectuals, has taken
the
opposite approach to "world opinion": he has tried to appease it. Instead
of
identifying anti-American Muslims as ideological enemies to be
discredited, he
has appealed to their sensibilities and met their demands-e.g.,
sacrificing
American soldiers to save Iraqi civilians and mosques, and striving to
make the
Iraqi occupation not look "too American." Instead of seeking to crush the
Islamists by defeating the causes they fight for-such as Islamic world
domination and the destruction of Israel-he has appeased those causes,
declaring Islam a "great religion" and rewarding the Palestinian terrorist
Jihad with a promised Palestinian state. Instead of destroying the
terrorist
regimes that wage war against the West-including Iran, Syria, Saudi
Arabia,
and the Palestinian Authority-he has sought their "cooperation" and even
cast
some as "coalition partners."
Such measures have taught the enemies they appease a deadly
lesson:
anti-Americanism pays. "Denounce and oppose America," they have learned,
"no
matter how irrationally and hypocritically, and American leaders will
praise
your ideals and meet your demands." "Attack America via terrorist proxy,"
terrorist states and movements have been taught, "and America will neither
blame you nor destroy you, but redouble its efforts to buy your love." Is
it
any wonder that anti-Americanism is gaining prominence, and that the "War
on
Terrorism" has no end in sight?
Every attempt to appease "world opinion" preserves, promotes, and
emboldens our enemies. Every concession to angry Muslim mobs, every
denunciation of Israel, every consultation with Prince Bandar or dictator
Assad
gives hope to the Islamist cause. Every day we allow terrorist regimes to
exist
gives their minions time to execute the next September 11. America needs
honest
leadership with the courage to identify and defeat our enemies-world
opinion
be damned.
I guess the Nazis thought that World opinion was unjust as well, and that
their torture was the Good kind too.
Nice article. Shows quite nicely the moral depravity of it's writer, and
those who agree with it.
eric.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
06 Jun 2004 11:41:58 AM |
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"eric davis" <ericdavisj600@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4sFwc.712$8k4.35387@news20.bellglobal.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040606091009.11868.00000439@mb-m27.aol.com...
June 3, 2004
World Opinion Be Damned
America's attempts to appease "world opinion" are depraved and suicidal
By Alex Epstein
I guess the Nazis thought that World opinion was unjust as well, and that
their torture was the Good kind too.
Nice article. Shows quite nicely the moral depravity of it's writer, and
those who agree with it.
eric.
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush Administration took office. The
very spin specialists who spun the truth and the intelligence to justify
Bush Administration's visionary policy on Iraq.
They weren't quite "visionary" enough to anticipate post-invasion problems
and properly plan, however.
Look for more widespread neocon spin now that they've gotten their wind back
after Abu Ghraib and after the realization that the Iraqi's really weren't
going to throw flowers at our triumphant feet.
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane society. We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
.
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| User: "jha_amin" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
06 Jun 2004 10:37:06 PM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
"eric davis" <ericdavisj600@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4sFwc.712$8k4.35387@news20.bellglobal.com...
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040606091009.11868.00000439@mb-m27.aol.com...
June 3, 2004
World Opinion Be Damned
America's attempts to appease "world opinion" are depraved and suicidal
By Alex Epstein
I guess the Nazis thought that World opinion was unjust as well, and that
their torture was the Good kind too.
Nice article. Shows quite nicely the moral depravity of it's writer, and
those who agree with it.
eric.
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush Administration took office. The
very spin specialists who spun the truth and the intelligence to justify
Bush Administration's visionary policy on Iraq.
They weren't quite "visionary" enough to anticipate post-invasion problems
and properly plan, however.
Look for more widespread neocon spin now that they've gotten their wind back
after Abu Ghraib and after the realization that the Iraqi's really weren't
going to throw flowers at our triumphant feet.
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane society. We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
07 Jun 2004 07:04:32 PM |
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"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for
Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane society.
We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
What conclusions are you drawing? :-)
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for the
elite when there's a better way.
.
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| User: "dreamwalker" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
07 Jun 2004 10:54:03 PM |
|
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:upSdnU6YGdJDm1jdRVn-gQ@locallink.net...
"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for
Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane society.
We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
What conclusions are you drawing? :-)
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for the
elite when there's a better way.
If you're so tired than take a nap.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:35:39 AM |
|
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"dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.net> wrote in message
news:b4$40c53861$407628b7$13019@powerweb.allthenewsgroups.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:upSdnU6YGdJDm1jdRVn-gQ@locallink.net...
"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for
Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane
society.
We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
What conclusions are you drawing? :-)
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating
East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for
the
elite when there's a better way.
If you're so tired than take a nap.
You are a brilliant guy!!!!!!! I'm blown away.
.
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| User: "dreamwalker" |
|
| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 09:48:17 AM |
|
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:hMednef6gJGROFjdRVn-jg@locallink.net...
"dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.net> wrote in message
news:b4$40c53861$407628b7$13019@powerweb.allthenewsgroups.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:upSdnU6YGdJDm1jdRVn-gQ@locallink.net...
"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for
Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane
society.
We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
What conclusions are you drawing? :-)
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating
East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for
the
elite when there's a better way.
If you're so tired than take a nap.
You are a brilliant guy!!!!!!! I'm blown away.
I thought you were tired?
.
|
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:29:54 PM |
|
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"dreamwalker" <backfromthe@dead.net> wrote in message
news:29454$40c5d1b4$4076265b$16472@powerweb.allthenewsgroups.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:hMednef6gJGROFjdRVn-jg@locallink.net...
You are a brilliant guy!!!!!!! I'm blown away.
I thought you were tired?
Wishful thinking.
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 05:33:36 AM |
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|
dreamwalker"
wrote:
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:upSdnU6YGdJDm1jdRVn-gQ@locallink.net...
"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for
Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane society.
We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
What conclusions are you drawing? :-)
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for the
elite when there's a better way.
If you're so tired than take a nap.
I think it's obviously that his brain already is.
Tony
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 07:13:18 AM |
|
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608063336.27551.00000705@mb-m05.aol.com...
dreamwalker"
wrote:
If you're so tired than take a nap.
I think it's obviously that his brain already is.
Tony
Hey, Tony, that was almost witty too.
The lack of depth of knowledge you've both shown in current events and
history demonstrates why you can't respond to issues point by point. It's
also a demonstration of your kinship with the neocons, the "Vulkan
brotherhood" in Washington. Scary that they really aren't any better
educated or informed than either one of you.
So keep the funny reparte coming. If you can't use any depth in fact or
history to respond then we'll soak up your weak "rhetoric".
In the meantime we'll also continue to watch the carnage that comes from
failed policies supported by the neocons and conservative "Christians".
Nothing to get passionate about there.
.
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 05:32:33 AM |
|
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John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net>
wrote:
I'm tired of white people being in the >position of making the statements
Bush is making.
So you'd like to see "white people" in a subserviant position?
Tony
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
|
| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 07:01:56 AM |
|
|
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608063233.27551.00000704@mb-m05.aol.com...
John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net>
wrote:
I'm tired of white people being in the >position of making the statements
Bush is making.
So you'd like to see "white people" in a subserviant position?
Tony
It's all submission and dominance with you isn't it? Interesting, but
common, way to look at life.
Basic Christianity, Tony. It's supposed to be simple. Love thy neighbor as
yourself. In the case of international trade it may be a matter of seeing
to it that the nations you do business with enjoy the same freedoms and
basic prosperity that you do.
No more propping up the likes of Saddam so you can harvest their oil.
.
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| User: "Michael Johnathan McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 02:42:10 PM |
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" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message news:<KdCdnRjlGuWoNljdRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
Basic Christianity, Tony. It's supposed to be simple. Love thy neighbor as
yourself.
Right. We love freedom and peace, but if you are against it, then you
are not my (our) neighbor. - Basic Christianity.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how America was involved in
carving up the middle east after WWI? Just more of your lies.
.
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 08:52:47 PM |
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"Michael Johnathan McDonald" <abookoflife@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dd3256f0.0406081142.1ded4f17@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<KdCdnRjlGuWoNljdRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
Basic Christianity, Tony. It's supposed to be simple. Love thy
neighbor as
yourself.
Right. We love freedom and peace, but if you are against it, then you
are not my (our) neighbor. - Basic Christianity.
You've got scripture to back that up? I think we're looking at YOUR
christianity.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how America was involved in
carving up the middle east after WWI? Just more of your lies.
I'm sorry I didn't realize you were waiting for anything.
Let me understand something first. I'm going from memory here concerning
past posts. Is it your position that America, or it's "business interests",
had no involvement in the carving up of the Middle East after WWI?
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:43:50 PM |
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In article <dd3256f0.0406081142.1ded4f17@posting.google.com>, (Michael Johnathan McDonald) wrote:
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<KdCdnRjlGuWoNljdRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
Basic Christianity, Tony. It's supposed to be simple. Love thy neighbor as
yourself.
Right. We love freedom and peace, but if you are against it, then you
are not my (our) neighbor. - Basic Christianity.
No, basic Christianity is (paraphrased) "Love thine enemy. Even the
evildoers love those who love them!"
Woods
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 08:32:40 AM |
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" John F Lemke"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608063233.27551.00000704@mb-m05.aol.com...
John F Lemke" < >
wrote:
I'm tired of white people being in the >position of making the statements
Bush is making.
So you'd like to see "white people" in a subserviant position?
Tony
It's all submission and dominance with >you isn't it? Interesting, but
common, way to look at life.
Uh, take a look around the world John, take a look at history, learn from it.
When a group that was on top is no longer on top, they get stepped on.
That you don't understand this speaks volumes.
Tony
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:10:03 PM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608063233.27551.00000704@mb-m05.aol.com...
John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net>
wrote:
I'm tired of white people being in the >position of making the
statements
Bush is making.
So you'd like to see "white people" in a subserviant position?
Tony
It's all submission and dominance with >you isn't it? Interesting, but
common, way to look at life.
Uh, take a look around the world John, take a look at history, learn from
it.
Ha, you tell me about history? hahahahaha.
When a group that was on top is no longer on top, they get stepped on.
Ah, you're talking about the white race then, huh? If you're so up on
current events then you know that given current demographics it'll be the
hispanic vote that carries the next election. You may be already headed for
the bottom, dude.
That you don't understand this speaks volumes.
Well, I know you know nothing about your 'faith'. Do you know when,
according to the latest projections, Latinos will become the majority in
this country?
It's beyond yer control, Wassabi.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:42:06 PM |
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In article <P-adnRJj06b411vd4p2dnA@locallink.net>, " John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608063233.27551.00000704@mb-m05.aol.com...
John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net>
wrote:
I'm tired of white people being in the >position of making the
statements
Bush is making.
So you'd like to see "white people" in a subserviant position?
Tony
It's all submission and dominance with >you isn't it? Interesting, but
common, way to look at life.
Uh, take a look around the world John, take a look at history, learn from
it.
Ha, you tell me about history? hahahahaha.
Are you a historian?
Woods
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 07:10:27 PM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9sxc.319191$M3.123272@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <P-adnRJj06b411vd4p2dnA@locallink.net>, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
Uh, take a look around the world John, take a look at history, learn
from
it.
Ha, you tell me about history? hahahahaha.
Are you a historian?
Woods
Nothing personal online, Woods. :-)
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 08:35:48 PM |
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In article <_dSdnXgJW6JryFvdRVn_iw@locallink.net>, " John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9sxc.319191$M3.123272@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <P-adnRJj06b411vd4p2dnA@locallink.net>, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
Uh, take a look around the world John, take a look at history, learn
from
it.
Ha, you tell me about history? hahahahaha.
Are you a historian?
Woods
Nothing personal online, Woods. :-)
Darn - I'm full of questions.
My daughter majored in history (asian/medieval), and it's actually a much more
fascinating field thatn what I got from high school or the college history
course I took. (I guess it helped that she went to far better schools than I
did ;-)
Did you know, for example, that in one war there were 2 armies that were evenly
matched except for one thing that gave them such an advantage that they
overwhelmingly won the war? That one thing was ..... shoes!
Woods
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:41:26 PM |
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In article <20040608093240.00357.00000558@mb-m14.aol.com>, (TonyZ2001) wrote:
" John F Lemke"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" < > wrote in message
news:20040608063233.27551.00000704@mb-m05.aol.com...
John F Lemke" < >
wrote:
I'm tired of white people being in the >position of making the statements
Bush is making.
So you'd like to see "white people" in a subserviant position?
Tony
It's all submission and dominance with >you isn't it? Interesting, but
common, way to look at life.
Uh, take a look around the world John, take a look at history, learn from it.
When a group that was on top is no longer on top, they get stepped on.
Maybe because they were stepping on people while they were on top, and those who
suffered under it wanted to exact their blood fee.
That you don't understand this speaks volumes.
That you don't seem to connect this to the present US course says a lot more.
Woods
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 08:33:33 AM |
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John F Lemke"
wrote:
No more propping up the likes of >Saddam so you can harvest their oil.
LOL!!!
Saddam propped himself up, he had no help from the USA.
Tony
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:10:59 PM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608093333.00357.00000559@mb-m14.aol.com...
John F Lemke"
wrote:
No more propping up the likes of >Saddam so you can harvest their oil.
LOL!!!
Saddam propped himself up, he had no help from the USA.
Tony
Wrong. hahahahaha
Well we've dealt with this delusion long enough.
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| User: "Woodswun" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
07 Jun 2004 09:24:45 PM |
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In article <upSdnU6YGdJDm1jdRVn-gQ@locallink.net>, " John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I've heard some former Iraqi expatriots express dire foreboding for
Iraq's
future. They're brave enough to go home and work for a sane society.
We
can still hope and pray for a peaceful resolution in Iraq.
A couple of Bush quotes for you, John.
" Some of the debate really center around the fact that people
don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps
brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly
disagree with that. I reject that, because I believe that freedom is
the deepest need of every human soul, and, if given a chance, the
Iraqi people will be not only self-governing, but a stable and free
society.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that
people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that
people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than
white can self-govern."
Draw your own conclusions. Maybe i'm missing something important
here.
What conclusions are you drawing? :-)
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for the
elite when there's a better way.
I'm not entirely certain any of us would be happier if the impoverished (read:
also uneducated) were making all the decisions. A little consideration for
others is all that's called for, and what's lacking in the NeoCon political
machine.
Woods
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 06:57:01 AM |
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"Woodswun" <woodswun@tepidmail.com> wrote in message
news:Nr9xc.129361$hY.50862@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
In article <upSdnU6YGdJDm1jdRVn-gQ@locallink.net>, " John F Lemke"
<jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote:
"jha_amin" <jha_amin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:33b7880.0406061937.647c5e51@posting.google.com...
" John F Lemke" <jflemke@LocalLink.net> wrote in message
news:<8pqdnRZl6_hJ1F7dRVn-gQ@locallink.net>...
I'm tired of white people being in the position of making the statements
Bush is making. I'm tired of rich dominating poor, West dominating East,
North dominating South. Talking hemispheres here. I'm tired of strong,
patriotic middle class kids shedding their blood for oil and wealth for
the
elite when there's a better way.
I'm not entirely certain any of us would be happier if the impoverished
(read:
also uneducated) were making all the decisions. A little consideration
for
others is all that's called for, and what's lacking in the NeoCon
political
machine.
Woods
I'm sure we agree that there's a good chance for compromise between
political and military domination and letting poor and impoverished make all
the decisions. Negotiation is at the heart of business transactions. We
don't need to dominate anyone in order to do business with them.
Unless of course you went to school with Paul Wolfowitz. :-)
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
07 Jun 2004 05:37:35 AM |
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John F Lemke"
wrote:
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush >Administration took office.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why do you long for the days of Saddam?
Tony
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| User: "ex" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
07 Jun 2004 01:57:28 PM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040607063735.00660.00000670@mb-m01.aol.com...
John F Lemke"
wrote:
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush >Administration took office.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why do you long for the days of
Saddam?
Tony
It's not a bad thing. It's an illegal thing. Bush used the U.N. resolution
to allow weapons inspectors back into Iraq so that he would have a pretext
for invading and occupying the country. He gave the inspectors a measly 4
months to find the 'stockpiles'of WMD's. Then he sent in the troops. Lotsa
people died. Then he sent in David Kay from the CIA with a whole team of
specialists. Kays' report after a year was notable for the words 'We were
wrong'. Did ya get that part? 'We were wrong'.
Of course, maybe Kay was surprised to *not* find WMD, since he was likely
'out of the loop' during the planning stages.
-ex
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/04
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| User: "TonyZ2001" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 05:34:26 AM |
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"ex"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040607063735.00660.00000670@mb-m01.aol.com...
John F Lemke"
wrote:
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush >Administration took office.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why do you long for the days of
Saddam?
Tony
It's not a bad thing.
Well for once you show some brains.
Tony
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| User: "ex" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
08 Jun 2004 05:46:42 AM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608063426.27551.00000706@mb-m05.aol.com...
"ex"
wrote:
"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040607063735.00660.00000670@mb-m01.aol.com...
John F Lemke"
wrote:
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent
on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush >Administration took office.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why do you long for the days of
Saddam?
Tony
It's not a bad thing.
Well for once you show some brains.
Tony
If you did likewise, we'd finally agree.
-ex
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/04
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| User: " John F Lemke" |
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| Title: Re: World Opinion Be Damned |
07 Jun 2004 07:18:57 PM |
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"TonyZ2001" <tonyz2001@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040607063735.00660.00000670@mb-m01.aol.com...
John F Lemke"
wrote:
This article being brought to you by the same people who were intent on
invading Iraq from the first day the Bush >Administration took office.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why do you long for the days of
Saddam?
Tony
So you're ready to invade countries simply because they are run by
bloodthirsty dictators? Terror regimes? You can only do that, Tony, if
they're regimes that aren't willing to do business with us. The ones that
do business with us are good bloodthirsty dictators and good terror regimes.
Another neocon ploy..............." Well, yes, we manipulated the
intelligence, lied about other things, ignored our allies, ignored Middle
Eastern diplomats and heads of state, disguised our real motivation in our
policy towards Iraq, misjudged the manpower needed, misjudged the reception
we would get but, by golly, at least Saddam is gone."
And the Vice President's former company, Halliburton, gets the contract
(without competitive bidding) to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure.
Hurray!!!!!!!!!!!! Wave them flags people!!!!!!!!!!!!
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