| Topic: |
DEVELOP > c-Plus-Plus |
| User: |
"stryfedll" |
| Date: |
22 Oct 2006 11:43:00 AM |
| Object: |
College degree or not |
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you
Shane
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| User: "Daniel T." |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
22 Oct 2006 04:34:37 PM |
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"stryfedll" <stryfedll@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
I have to agree with you, when it comes to learning how to program,
college is a waste of time. The only graduates worth hiring are the kind
that would have done just as well studying on their own in the first
place.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree?
You would have a hard time making any headway in the field. Look at it
from an employer's prospective, when he has 200-400 resumes for that one
job opening, the first thing he's going to do is come up with some
arbitrary criteria (like "has college degree") to cull out the stack.
Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
Yes, you would be less likely to succeed. An employer cannot tell that
you know more than an applicant with a degree, so he is going to hedge
his bet.
Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you
One idea is to go to college while looking for a job. Once you get hired
and have proven yourself, you can quit college. Such a strategy would
have worked well in the 80s but I don't think it will work in today's
market... but it's an idea.
--
There are two things that simply cannot be doubted, logic and perception.
Doubt those, and you no longer have anyone to discuss your doubts with,
nor any ability to discuss them.
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| User: "Bo Yang" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
22 Oct 2006 09:01:13 PM |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
stryfedll :
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you
Shane
I am a Chinese student who face the same situation like you .
I don't think I can learn more if I go out the school . If I
go to some software company , I need to work hard to accomplish
the task everyday so that I can't do whatever I like .
I choose to give myself three more years to do what I like , to learn
what I am interested in . And I am also not certain whether my decision
is right ?
There are many classmates talking to me and advise me to leave school
to get a job . They said ," Hi , resortting to your good skill , you can
get a good job easily . But if you decide to go on study for a Bachelor
degree , three years later , the people who are worse than you now will
catch up to you , and then what advantage you have ? Another three years
maybe good for those who has no priority now , but not for you !"
Oh , too many advice , but I just choose to three years more study
without to consider whether this is right or not !
Choose and Do , don't think too much , I advice !
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| User: "arnuld" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 02:20:54 AM |
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FIRST, it is OFF-TOPIC, try "comp.programming" instead.
SECOND, my answer is OFF-TOPIC as well, but i want to help.
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
YES, you are right, you can learn much-more about progamming by
learning it on your own + doing OpenSource projects. college is really
a waste of time. 95% of the colleges & nearly 99% of the
education-system ruin persons of their talent & expertise. i did B.Sc
(with comp app.) in sesion 2000-03 & left this field entirely as i
hated what my college taught me like BASIC, DOS, Java, RDBMS etc etc. i
landed into "Selling" & became a salesman for Standard Chatrered bank,
after that i sold water-purifiers for Eureka-Forbes. One day, in 2005
after 2 years, i was watching "Hackers" at HBO & was very-much
impressed by the *individual talents* shown in the movie + the *group*
of friends shown there. i never had any friends in the college.
everyone was just pure selfish, doing his own stuff only & i did my
graduation on a single bench, alone, lonely, nobody liked me. i always
thought programming assumes no-friends. i knew very well that Hollywood
movies are not like "Indian" movies, they are practical men, they
reflect the reality of life e.g. watch "from hell", "the insider", "in
good company", "spy game", "the pianist", "the secret window", "the
unorganised crime" etc. what really hit me hard was that life of a
graduate was really very *different* from what i lived & most shocking
truth was the programming subjects they have shown.
that day, with the very-vague idea of what programming is, i left
"selling" & started to Google the word "programming". for the 1st time
in my life i saw the words "Common Lisp", "Scheme", "Perl", "GNU",
"String.h" (yeah, i did 'C' in college & they never told me what is
"String.h" :-( now it is the end of 2006, using Debian since Dec 2005,
now i have good knowledge of programming langugaes, learnt Common Lisp,
know something about softwares, Hacking, comfortable with Datbases &
Assembly & presently learning modern C++. i am in love with the Hacker
culture :-)
NOW, why the HECK.... i am telling you this? It is because i did not
get any Masters degree ( as i told you i left the field) Since i do not
have any Masters degree, i am feeling a lot of trouble in getting a
job. i can not apply for nearly 70% of the jobs in India, a Masters
degree is required for applying & if you do apply then employers will
simply reject you (except 1 or 2 who will take your experience
seriously). So i am left with 30% where they accpet a Bachelor's
degree, the one i have, + 2-3 years of project experience & i have
found only 1% employers do not require any degree, they want expertise
but remember that they are just 1% of the entire market, Hence you can
have an idead of where you will stand without a Bachelors degree. I
amnot aware of the situation in your country but most of the time i
have found this to be same across the globe. I know i will get a job
after doing some OpenSource projects but trust me that is really very
troublesome. i have seen here people getting 3000-5000 INR (INdian
Rupees) less than their colleagues just because they dont have a
Masters degree even though they are working together, even they have
same designation. NO, I am not scaring you away, if you have a
Bachelor's degree, then, it happens only in the beginning, after 5
years things go smooth. If you dont do any Bachelors then you will be
rejected by 99% of the employers. well, if you want to run your
business, then go ahead, you dont need a degree for that but you need
business acumen. i recommend doing a "Software Engineering" degree
rather than doing a simple Bachelors. it will increase the chances of
your employment.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree?
If you go on your own you will know more than the person having a
degree but that is not what employers want at 1st place, they want a
degree at 1st place & they want your knowledge & expertise at 2nd place
:-(. i think industry has this fucking situation because of "pointy
haired bosses". (1)
Would I be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
what do you mean by success here? i have 4 different meanings:
successful programmer meaning # 1: you are a successsful programmer at
a company because just after 2 years they raised your salary & after 4
you are project-Manager there. for this kind of success you deadly need
"Bachelors + Masters" degree. Pointy-haired bosses (a.k.a fucking
morons) take Masters as a measure of a specialised, more powerful &
focussed programmer. after 10 years you are the generl Manager drawing
6 figure salary. you are a successful programmer.
successful programmer meaning # 2: you do not have any degree but you
have run successful OpenSource projects & today, after 10 years,
because of your powerfull programming skills, you are known as one of
the precious Hackers & one of the most better Project Managers of Open
Source projects & you are still working as Sr. Software Developer at
XYZ as you never got sometime improve the skills nedded to surge ahead
on your job & XYZ is considering to put you on cost-reduction list. you
are a successful programmer.
successful programmer meaning # 3: You start a start-up with some of
your friends,do hell-lot of work, 70% of friends gave up in the middle
but still other & you work ridiculously hard for your software & after
4 years Google wants to purchase your software for only $40 million.
you are a successful programmer.
successful programmer meaning # 4: i will not explain it, i hope you
will get an idea. you do contract work with companies & also directly
with customers & fix their problems. after 4-5 years you are earning a
six figure income. you are a successful programmer.
Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you
i will sum up & add some things here, step by step:
1.) *DO* get a degree.
2.) If you can, get a Software Engineering degree rather than a simple
Bachelors
3.) make sure you do at leat 1 Open Source project, to get a feel of
real-coding.
4.) C & C++ are different langugaes, you dont need the one, if you want
to learn the other.
5.) never forget "Common Lisp", it is the red-pill (watched "The
Matrix"?)
6.) today, right now, go, sorry.. RUN & order or buy Debian, Fedora
Core or one of the BSDs, install it, run it, live with it, eat with it,
dream with it. you will get a decade ahead from 90% your classmates &
professional programmers.
7.) check these links:
http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/cclass/progintro/top.html
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/hiring.html
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/hacker-history/
8.) Learn Martial-Arts and/or Guitar
9.) Watch these movies (at least): "The Matrix", "Hackers", "Swordfish"
10.) Read SF (Science-Fiction) novels, e.g. to begin, read: "the man
who sold the moon", "altered carbon", "snow crash" etc.
9.) hey check my blog too :-)
-- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogspot.com
(1) for pointy-haired bosses see: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html
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| User: "Greg Comeau" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 08:31:21 AM |
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In article <1161535380.247463.256750@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
stryfedll <stryfedll@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." --Mark Twain
I understand how you feel. And I'm not going to try and sway
you one way or the other. However, I'd like to mention some
things I think you may not be considering.
There is one view that one purpose of college is to keep you
out of the job market. Whether that is true or not I don't
want to get into. But it is that case that you can use that
time wisely. Time you have not have if you don't go to college.
Even though college is no panacea, it is at least some
minor way to authenticate yourself.
I know some of the courses can be a real drag.
But then again, since you are young, you may not yet
realize their full potential.
Even if you know what you want to do, there are other
aspects to it that make a lot of sense. It has been mentioned
in this thread about getting theory from school, and that is
actually important in the long run IMO.
One aspect of college is networking yourself.
When I either speak or go to conferences, I often find
one of the most education aspects is not the courseware
at all, but the discussions and gathering that happen
over lunch or dinner or a beer. View college the same way.
Get to know the professors. Ask for an additional account
to study on your own. Finish each assignment on time,
but then do another version where you add something to it
and bounce that off your teacher. Join the school's ACM student
chapter, and if they don't have one, you start it. Set
yourself up as the volunteer in a student help desk for their
programming questions. Try to get your dept head to establish
a lecture series once a week or so with outside invited speakers.
Time is what you make of it. When you finish your classes,
go but a computer magazine or computer books to read, even
if you disagree with the author. Go find another computer
language to learn. Or try to learn a new OS.
See if you can't become a volunteer on some research project
that the school is doing. Or, often, some teacher has
a grant going on that needs programming that is beyond
the capacity of the instructor (for instance, I help my
psychology professor with some behavioral research, or my
English teacher who was trying to analyze Spanish poetry,
or another teacher who was trying to analyze the US census, etc).
There is also the issue of aspects such as documentation,
presentations, etc. Few companies are probably willing
to send you to a English 101 course. And if you're figure
on doing your own company, then having some english and math
etc course under your belt will be to your benefit especially
if the school not only offers say English 101 but stuff
like technical writing, etc.
You may also want to see if it is possible to be able to
substitute course which are more interesting to you
when it comes to electives or even some of the base
bachelor's classes.
There is of course downsides to many of the things I've mentioned
but they are still food for thought.
This is important: whether you get a degree or not,
you need to figure out how to distinguish yourself from others.
At some level you are a commodity, and dilpoma or not,
what make you "worth more" than somebody else.
Also, you mentioned that "the benfits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a[re] overwhelming".
But another way to look at this is that the two are not
mutually exclusive but complementary.
You also mentioned "there seems to be only one problem."
What is that problem? That you feel most companies want to
see the degree? Unlike other here, I think that's a red
herring argument, although I completely agree that some
companies will indeed require it.
You can still be competitive w/o a degree. And, you can
still succeed w/o one, may people do. But, I don't believe
this is the bottom line issue.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
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| User: "Noah Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 11:27:45 AM |
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Greg Comeau wrote:
Also, you mentioned that "the benfits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a[re] overwhelming".
But another way to look at this is that the two are not
mutually exclusive but complementary.
Yep. Everything I learned at college I taught myself.
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| User: "loufoque" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 10:41:24 AM |
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Greg Comeau wrote:
One aspect of college is networking yourself.
When I either speak or go to conferences, I often find
one of the most education aspects is not the courseware
at all, but the discussions and gathering that happen
over lunch or dinner or a beer. View college the same way.
Get to know the professors. Ask for an additional account
to study on your own. Finish each assignment on time,
but then do another version where you add something to it
and bounce that off your teacher. Join the school's ACM student
chapter, and if they don't have one, you start it. Set
yourself up as the volunteer in a student help desk for their
programming questions. Try to get your dept head to establish
a lecture series once a week or so with outside invited speakers.
Isn't that the kind of stuff you do after you're a grad student, not to
say after a master's degree?
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| User: "Greg Comeau" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 11:13:32 AM |
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In article <453ce27c$0$9981$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
loufoque <loufoque@remove.gmail.com> wrote:
Greg Comeau wrote:
One aspect of college is networking yourself.
When I either speak or go to conferences, I often find
one of the most education aspects is not the courseware
at all, but the discussions and gathering that happen
over lunch or dinner or a beer. View college the same way.
Get to know the professors. Ask for an additional account
to study on your own. Finish each assignment on time,
but then do another version where you add something to it
and bounce that off your teacher. Join the school's ACM student
chapter, and if they don't have one, you start it. Set
yourself up as the volunteer in a student help desk for their
programming questions. Try to get your dept head to establish
a lecture series once a week or so with outside invited speakers.
Isn't that the kind of stuff you do after you're a grad student, not to
say after a master's degree?
I'm not sure what you mean.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
.
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| User: "loufoque" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 12:49:23 PM |
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Greg Comeau wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean.
Usually people aren't close with the professors before they start
thesises and the like.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 12:23:04 AM |
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don't judge college education with 1st year entry courses. My personal
experience is that 3rd are 4th year classes are where students are
actually really learning . If possible talk to students who are taking
computer architecture, alogrithum, software arch classes, operating
system or even programming language-compiler class.
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 12:33:32 AM |
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ankitks wrote:
don't judge college education with 1st year entry courses. My personal
experience is that 3rd are 4th year classes are where students are
actually really learning . If possible talk to students who are taking
computer architecture, alogrithum, software arch classes, operating
system or even programming language-compiler class.
How many job listings these days openly declare you _must_ have more than 1
year of industry experience before they will consider hiring you?
Of these listings, what fraction are for C++? Is our language
over-represented in this Real World Gap?
The conclusion might be that companies would rather you go thru your "extra
bugs phase" with some other company... and that the colleges aren't
preventing this.
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 09:08:52 AM |
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stryfedll <stryfedll@gmail.com> wrote:
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
I would say definitely yes; if you don't have a degree, it takes much
more effort on the part of an employer to determine whether you have
the basic competence that can reasonably be expected of someone with a
degree. You'll probably get paid more, too. There are a lot of IT
jobs you can get without a degree, mind you - my brother-in-law
recently got hired as a Linux system admin with no degree and limited
related experience other than some book reading - but for a programmer
there's no substitute for the structured instruction a good degree
will get you. Why not read your books AND get the degree? Put
together a nice project on the side? It can certainly be done and
you'll cover a lot more of your bases.
--
C. Benson Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
cbmanica(at)gmail.com | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
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| User: "BobR" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 06:20:09 PM |
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stryfedll wrote in message
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you
Shane
If you are in the USA, your best bet is to drop out of school and join a gang
because crime *does* pay (just look at our congress!!).
In other famous words, "STAY in school" (as long as you can).
[ I often wish I had. Learning on your own is slow, and you get no paper to
prove it (yeah, I know, but I can't afford to buy a diploma on the net!!
<G>).]
Oh, and just say NO to politicians!!!
That's my 2 pico-cents worth...
--
Bob R
POVrookie
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 07:54:24 PM |
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BobR wrote:
If you are in the USA, your best bet is to drop out of school and join a
gang
because crime *does* pay (just look at our congress!!).
Uh, I thought Congress consisted of white-collar, graduate criminals.
("We're not a gang we're a club!" Google "Skull & Bones", etc...)
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| User: "BobR" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 10:15:35 PM |
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Phlip wrote in message <4vd%g.23244$7I1.642@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>...
BobR wrote:
If you are in the USA, your best bet is to drop out of school and join a
gang
because crime *does* pay (just look at our congress!!).
Uh, I thought Congress consisted of white-collar, graduate criminals.
("We're not a gang we're a club!" Google "Skull & Bones", etc...)
"gang", "club"? It's the DemoPublican corporation, whose arch-Robin hood
mission statement includes "make the poor pay for the rich..."......
OOoohh Crap!!! Off-topic again. Where the hell did I hide that flame-suit?!?
Uhhh...
class DemoPublican{
void HangingChad();
void SmokeScreen();
void CoverUps();
void PageSex();
void Corruption(){ CoverUps();}
public:
void MyFellowAmericans();
void Promises( int &count ){ count = (NULL & void); };
void iDidNotHaveSexWith();
protected:
void Wages(int &LastYear){ LastYear *= LastYear;};
};
..... still lookin' fer that dang flame-suit!!
--
Bob R
POVrookie
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 11:41:45 PM |
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BobR wrote:
OOoohh Crap!!! Off-topic again. Where the hell did I hide that
flame-suit?!?
Off topic?
Uhhh...
class DemoPublican{
void HangingChad();
void SmokeScreen();
void CoverUps();
void PageSex();
Well, at least we are all on the same page here...
--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
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| User: "Chris Thomasson" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
24 Oct 2006 12:01:28 AM |
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"Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dQg%g.23322$7I1.19956@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
BobR wrote:
OOoohh Crap!!! Off-topic again. Where the hell did I hide that
flame-suit?!?
void PageSex();
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What a Go$ damn% morbid freak! Scary, isn't it?
:O
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
24 Oct 2006 12:33:37 AM |
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Chris Thomasson wrote:
void PageSex();
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What a Go$ damn% morbid freak! Scary, isn't it?
Totally. Much worse than killing over half a million Iraqis.
--
Phlip
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| User: "arnuld" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 09:26:32 PM |
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Phlip wrote:
If you are in the USA, your best bet is to drop out of school and join a
gang because crime *does* pay (just look at our congress!!).
i did not get it. you want to say that you have "criminals' (murderers,
rapists) as ministers in your US senate/parliament (just like we have
in India).
Uh, I thought Congress consisted of white-collar, graduate criminals.
("We're not a gang we're a club!" Google "Skull & Bones", etc...)
yes i did & found that "George Bush" & his father "George Bush" were
members of "Skull & Bones" & it is a secret society at Yale University
& society's members are raised to high-power positions. that does not
say that "Skull & Bones" is a society of criminals, rapists &
murderers.
-- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogspot.com
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| User: "Ian Collins" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 02:41:53 PM |
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stryfedll wrote:
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
There isn't much more to add to this thread, but remember employers see
a degree (any numerate/science/engineering degree) as much as an
indicator about you as a person as they do as an indicator about you as
a programmer.
It shows the candidate has the ability and discipline to self organise
and learn as well as possessing the required academic ability. Lack of
a degree isn't a counter indicator, but it muddies the waters and adds
an extra level of complexity to the selection process. You have be able
to offer something special to catch their attention.
--
Ian Collins.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 08:41:23 AM |
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stryfedll wrote:
Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.
Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?
Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you
Shane
I'd say it's a pretty bad idea. Turning down education is kind of like
turning down a pile of gold. You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of
gold.
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| User: "Daniel T." |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 09:39:42 AM |
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Eric <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Turning down education is kind of like turning down a pile of gold.
You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of gold.
That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.
--
To send me email, put "sheltie" in the subject.
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| User: "Wayne Marsh" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 10:31:17 AM |
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Daniel T. wrote:
Eric <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Turning down education is kind of like turning down a pile of gold.
You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of gold.
That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.
For those of you in the U.K. with the same dilemma, take a look at the
government institution The Open University. You study in your own time,
and the degree is highly respected because A) the quality of the
teaching materials is very high, and B) working for a degree on a
largely self-motivated basis is a very difficult thing to do, and shows
that you're a pretty capable person. It might take five, six, even ten
years to complete (although you COULD do it in three), but read on!
I got a good programming job (advertised for graduates only) on the
basis that I was /taking/ an Open University Mathematics degree, and had
my own self/book taught software engineering experience. Just mentioning
that you are currently doing the degree is damned near as good as having
completed it.
The networking aspect of college life is covered through OU tutor groups
- and you're generally with people of all ages who know the score and
are intelligent enough to learn in this way, rather than a bunch of
terrible upstart students being spoon-fed through a course.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 11:15:11 AM |
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Daniel T. wrote:
Eric <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Turning down education is kind of like turning down a pile of gold.
You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of gold.
That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.
That statement only holds if you remove the layer of abstraction allowed
by analogy.
I am saying education has worth. Gold has worth. Neither come for free,
either monetarily or in personal effort. This does not rob them of worth.
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| User: "Daniel T." |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 11:56:00 AM |
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Eric <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
Eric <no@thanks.com> wrote:
Turning down education is kind of like turning down a pile of gold.
You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of gold.
That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.
I am saying education has worth. Gold has worth. Neither come for free,
either monetarily or in personal effort. This does not rob them of worth.
Yes of course. The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what the
OP wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
--
To send me email, put "sheltie" in the subject.
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| User: "Victor Bazarov" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 12:10:12 PM |
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Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what
the OP wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive. Besides, it is
not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For some it could
be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially. It is all of
course relative, as well.
The problem with discussions of this kind (IMNSHO) is that we often
give examples of an average person's result from an average school
attended during an average year in comparison with an average HS
graduate doing average studying at an average home using average
sources of information, and all of it based on being hired by some
average company looking to find an average good programmer... How
in hell does it apply to the real life? In most cases it doesn't.
There is no average HS graduate, there is no average university, or
even an average company looking for an average good programmer.
V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
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| User: "Daniel T." |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 02:32:35 PM |
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"Victor Bazarov" <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to university
(both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what the OP
wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If
the goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive.
Not totally, but largely. I've seen plenty of poor programers and
designers who none-the-less got decent jobs simply because they had a
degree.
Besides, it is not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For
some it could be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially.
It is all of course relative, as well.
Yes, but in my opinion, someone who can't learn it on their own isn't as
valuable despite the "substantial gain".
--
To send me email, put "sheltie" in the subject.
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| User: "Victor Bazarov" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 02:57:18 PM |
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Daniel T. wrote:
"Victor Bazarov" <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to university
(both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what the OP
wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If
the goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive.
Not totally, but largely. I've seen plenty of poor programers and
designers who none-the-less got decent jobs simply because they had a
degree.
That makes no sense by itself. Did they get it winning over a good
programmer without a degree or another poor programmer/designer without
a degree? What company was it? Is it still in business? Was it at
the time driven by a government-mandated affirmative action of some
kind? And so on. Simply put: an instance of a poor programmer getting
hired because of a degree is in no way a proof that having a degree is
more important when it comes to being hired.
Besides, it is not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For
some it could be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially.
It is all of course relative, as well.
Yes, but in my opinion, someone who can't learn it on their own isn't
as valuable despite the "substantial gain".
This is also nonsense. NOBODY learns "on their own". Otherwise, we
all would be crawling and moaning instead of driving cars and talking.
The question is mostly what amount of assistance one requires at each
point in their development. When I learned to ride a bicycle, I used
a set of training wheels, and when I learned to ride a motorcycle, I
didn't. When I learned to walk, I had to have both my hands held, and
when I learned to ballroom-dance, I held somebody else (sometimes even
from falling down).
Development of learning skills is also a learning process which requires
help at first (just like everything else) and feedback all the way.
Some folks become self-sufficient in learning earlier, but it can take
them longer to reach certain level of self-sufficiency. Others need
more guidance through their studies longer, but at the end they often
gain higher levels of self-sufficiency simply because they experience
more efficient (and sometimes simply longer) pull up the slope.
Besides, all generalisations are wrong.
V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
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| User: "Daniel T." |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 04:27:12 PM |
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"Victor Bazarov" <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
"Victor Bazarov" <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's
what the OP wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If
the goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive.
Not totally, but largely. I've seen plenty of poor programers and
designers who none-the-less got decent jobs simply because they had
a degree.
That makes no sense by itself.
Simply put: an instance of a poor programmer getting hired because
of a degree is in no way a proof that having a degree is more
important when it comes to being hired.
Look, once we take into account that HR generally gets hundreds of
applicants per position, we can see that most of these applicants won't
even make it to the interview/testing stage, so actual skill at
programming isn't even an issue. Thus, programming skill and ability to
get the job have less to do with each-other, than one's "resume
hot-spots" (like a college degree.)
--
To send me email, put "sheltie" in the subject.
.
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| User: "Victor Bazarov" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 05:03:51 PM |
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Daniel T. wrote:
"Victor Bazarov" <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
"Victor Bazarov" <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's
what the OP wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If
the goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive.
Not totally, but largely. I've seen plenty of poor programers and
designers who none-the-less got decent jobs simply because they had
a degree.
That makes no sense by itself.
Simply put: an instance of a poor programmer getting hired because
of a degree is in no way a proof that having a degree is more
important when it comes to being hired.
Look, once we take into account that HR generally gets hundreds of
applicants per position, we can see that most of these applicants
won't even make it to the interview/testing stage, so actual skill at
programming isn't even an issue. Thus, programming skill and ability
to get the job have less to do with each-other, than one's "resume
hot-spots" (like a college degree.)
For some reason we switched to arguing the point that having a degree
is better for being hired than not having one. Look at the top. You
started with "the cost is worth the reward" argument. I insist that
getting a degree is the single most important action one can take on
the way to *becoming a good programmer*. You, for whatever reason,
think that "the reward" of becoming a good programmer it's not worth
the cost of obtaining a degree. Too bad. I can only imagine that
your experience (or the experience of those with whom you discussed
this topic before) either was negative or was not prominent enough to
leave a lasting impression (or it was shadowed by other impressions).
Here is what not "totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive" means to
me. Since IMNSHO going to a college and obtaining an advanced (by
some measures) degree is just as important in becoming a good whatever
as getting one's career started, you cannot simply separate one from
the other. If one obtains a degree, one will become a good programmer
sooner than if one doesn't (with all nods towards "everybody learns
and develops differently" argument). If one does become a good (use
the term "better" if it's easier to understand) programmer, one has
more chance of getting hired than one with a degree but without
being a good programmer. Having a degree by itself doesn't really
do much, one still needs to work on becoming a good programmer. I
am convinced that no matter how good one is (and can become a good
programmer without outside help (although see my other argument about
"outside help")), the same person would benefit greatly by going to
school, and would become an even better programmer and get himself
(herself) an even greater chance at a good career. That's why it
is incorrect to put "if the goal is learning" on one side and "if
the goal is getting a job" on the _opposite_ side.
The only time I would even consider discussing those things as
opposites is when a career already exists and is not of professional
programming type, and learning to program is viewed as an improvement
in it. At that time going to college might be too much trouble since
in many cases it would mean interruption in the career, which is
never good. But we are not talking about it here, are we?
V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
.
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| User: "Greg Comeau" |
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| Title: Re: College degree or not |
23 Oct 2006 12:51:09 PM |
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In article <ehit1l$fsb$1@news.datemas.de>,
Victor Bazarov <v.Abazarov@comAcast.net> wrote:
Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what
the OP wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive. Besides, it is
not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For some it could
be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially. It is all of
course relative, as well.
I mostly agree. Having been on both sides of the fence
(student and teacher) it is clear to me that some people
just have it and some people just don't, but there is still
a lot to be said for the masses in the middle. And notwithstanding
that, folks learn differently, at different paces, have different
priorities, etc.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
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